Artic refuge saved for another year.

95DevilleNS said:
You're absolutely right on that part. I have no idea what the google guys said, but if they are being hypocrites, then F them. As far as the 'Do as I say, not as I do', im with you there, there are plenty of examples of that going on, most religious people for one.

You know, the bias towards religious people is really tiresome.

While there are certainly good people who aren't spirtual, and bad people who are. MOST people who are faithful TRY very hard to do the right thing. And to relentless assault them is a pretty lame thing to do.

Are the people who run the Salvation Army all hypocrits? Are the people in the Church Outreach programs running soup kitchens and shelters hyocrits? Are the missionaries tending to AIDS infected little children with distended bellies bad too?

I can think of dozens of religious based charity organizations out there doing good deeds every single day. You tell me the name of the devotely atheistic organization that's doing the same work.

Enough with the digs. It's an adhominem attack that you throw out for no reason. Stay on topic. This is about the fuel. Natural resources. Petroleum.
 
fossten said:
Despite your 'personal reference', I understand what Bryan is doing. He's pointing out hypocrisy, not condemning luxury. And he's doing it in a way that is sarcastic, using the absurd typical liberal tactic of criticizing wealth to illustrate absurdity at the same time. Quite brilliant, actually, and not surprising that it went over your head, nor is it surprising that you'd offer up a response far less brilliant than his.


Waaa.. Personal attack, I really don't mind, but when it comes from the master of crying about being personnally attacked, it is a bit annoying, ya know? My sarcastic remark obviously went over you head. I wasn't serious, but I'm not surprised you didn't get it.
 
Calabrio said:
You know, the bias towards religious people is really tiresome

I feel the same way about the bias towards non-religious people or people who have different religious views. It should really stop as a whole.

Agreed, back to topic.
 
fossten said:
YOU GOT THAT RIGHT..


Partisan.

"Just another cow, follow the herd."


fossten said:
YOU Don't you mean, not that YOU care? It's supposedly your lib leaders in Washington who are complaining about the oil prices and our foreign dependency..

No, that's not what I meant.


fossten said:
You make this reckless statement knowing NOTHING about environmental issues with regard to oil. You're just spouting talking points. If you want to debate the environment versus production, LET'S GET IT ON. I CAN'T WAIT.

What I DO know is... If we keep going at it like we are, our own pollution will be our downfall. People need breathable air and drinkable water to survive. Fortunately for you though, you (or I) won't be around for that, our great grandkids will and they're the one's that will have to deal with it. I understand that the demand for oil is increasing, but do you understand that pollution will reach critical levels?
 
95DevilleNS said:
Partisan.

"Just another cow, follow the herd."

See, you THINK you're insulting me by name-calling, but actually I'm proud to be a LEADER in conservatism.

You, on the other hand, would probably be ashamed to admit that you are a liberal, which is clear to the rest of us.
 
fossten said:
See, you THINK you're insulting me by name-calling, but actually I'm proud to be a LEADER in conservatism.

You, on the other hand, would probably be ashamed to admit that you are a liberal, which is clear to the rest of us.

The only thing you're a leader of is your own deluded thought processes. Why don't you get down off your high horse and get a brain
 
Drill that place til it looks like swiss cheese


heres a drawing I made to show you a small price for a huge price cut

win.jpg
 
raVeneyes said:
blah blah blah...personal attacks...blah blah blah...no substantive argument whatsoever...blah blah blah...

You possess nothing but the sheer inability to refute my statements, so you make yourself look bad by resorting to your bread-and-butter 5th-grade-level insults.

:sleep:

Anyone who opposes drilling in Alaska is simply anti-American and anti-business. Why aren't you pollution-whining hypocrites worried about the pollution caused by the Arab nations as they drill and drill? No comment about that. Oh, America is the only nation not allowed to drill.

Makes no sense whatsoever.
 
unless you ride a bike to work everyday, rain or shine. then dont complain, wait making bikes causes alot of pollution, so unless you walk to work bare foot dont complain about drilling
 
fossten said:
See, you THINK you're insulting me by name-calling, but actually I'm proud to be a LEADER in conservatism.

You, on the other hand, would probably be ashamed to admit that you are a liberal, which is clear to the rest of us.

LOL... Saying partisan isn't name calling... I'm just stating out your blind one-sidedness.

Liberal? Ok, depends what you think makes a liberal... If not blindly following your leaders and caring for more than just yourself makes me a liberal, than I'm a liberal.
 
The same people who want to prevent ANWR drilling in Alaska also want a $250 million bridge for an Alaskan town of 50 people.

Your leaders want government waste and dependence on foreign oil. If you're following that lead, YOU'RE the one who's blind, and you don't even know why.
 
fossten said:
Anyone who opposes drilling in Alaska is simply anti-American and anti-business. Why aren't you pollution-whining hypocrites worried about the pollution caused by the Arab nations as they drill and drill? No comment about that. Oh, America is the only nation not allowed to drill.

Makes no sense whatsoever.

Well...I guess you got me there with your superior intellect Pinky. I am Anti American and Anti Business.

Oh and yeah I hate all the pollution arab nations are causing to a sea that is to saline to support life and the largest patch of arid, also almost completely incapable of supporting life, land in the entire world.
 
raVeneyes said:
Well...I guess you got me there with your superior intellect Pinky. I am Anti American and Anti Business.

Oh and yeah I hate all the pollution arab nations are causing to a sea that is to saline to support life and the largest patch of arid, also almost completely incapable of supporting life, land in the entire world.

Ah, but you make Calabrio's point for him. Can you please explain how a 100-yard patch of tundra in ANWR is SO LARGE AND LIFE-SUPPORTING?
 
It won't just be a 100 yard patch they drill into, and pollution spreads. But it's a futile arguement, eventually they will drill and that 'lifeless tundra' will truly become lifeless. The irony will be when it does happen, the price at the pump still won't go down significantly.
 
95DevilleNS said:
It won't just be a 100 yard patch they drill into, and pollution spreads. But it's a futile arguement, eventually they will drill and that 'lifeless tundra' will truly become lifeless. The irony will be when it does happen, the price at the pump still won't go down significantly.

Your arguments are based on unfounded generalizations bordering on a non sequitur. The number of oil disasters in the U.S. is insignificant compared to what you are asserting will ALWAYS happen. For every example you use, I can come up with a counter-example.

It's your libwack leaders in Congress that want you and I to live in a state of fear, but there's no need.

Here, check this out:


Preventing Disasters by Design

A New Tool for Evaluating Oil Tanker Performance

Say the words Exxon Valdez to almost anyone over the age of 18, and you're sure to evoke the same memories of oil-soaked loons, cormorants, otters, and seals struggling along the shore and in the frigid water.

People everywhere were moved by the tragedy, including Congress. Not long after the tanker ran aground, spilling more than 11 million gallons of crude oil into the Prince William Sound, the Oil Pollution Act of 1990 was passed, requiring, among other things, that all oil tankers traveling in U.S. waters be equipped with double hulls. And, because most countries conduct trade -- or would like to conduct trade -- with the United States, the double hull quickly became the de facto standard worldwide for tanker designs.

The legislation seems to have accomplished what Congress intended. According to a 1996 National Research Council study, not only were there no accidents even one-tenth the magnitude of the Valdez in the five years that followed, but the amount of oil spilled from vessels -- and the number of spills of more than 100 gallons -- also declined.

Despite these results, some groups would like to see the standards revisited. They argue that new and innovative designs could meet or surpass the performance of the double hull. Currently, the International Maritime Organization (IMO), a United Nations agency responsible for improving safety and minimizing pollution in international shipping, has approved two alternative designs deemed to be as effective as the double hull in preventing oil spills. But tankers with these designs may never be built as long as the United States will only permit double-hull tankers to call on its ports.

The 1990 law made provisions for addressing these concerns. It directed the U.S. Coast Guard to look for alternative designs that could perform as well as or better than the double hull in preventing oil spills. However, there has been no systematic way to evaluate how one ship design would perform over another in a grounding or collision.

A National Research Council report offers a new method by which oil tanker designs can be compared for the amount of environmental damage they would cause if involved in an accident. By predicting how a tanker would perform -- before the tanker has even been built -- the method could give rise to innovative designs that are less costly and give equal or better environmental protection than current fleets provide.

The new methodology assesses a ship's chances of causing an oil spill by analyzing three features: the amount of structural damage to the ship if a specific collision or grounding occurred, and the resulting spillage; the environmental consequences of the spill, including physical measures such as the thickness and area of oil in the water and the extent of shoreline damage; and how ships of similar size but different design would compare in the same imaginary incident.

NOAA scientist assesses oil penetration after Exxon Valdez spill (photo courtesy NOAA) One of the most important points of the methodology -- and counterintuitive to what most people would guess -- is that the environmental consequence is not directly related to the amount of oil that is spilled. Small spills were found to cause a disproportionately higher amount of environmental damage, gallon for gallon, than one would expect. Once the environment has been heavily damaged, the relative harm done by extra oil diminishes. For this reason, a tanker design that may result in many small spills would be less desirable than one that could cause a few large ones, according to the report.

In addition to continued testing and refining of the methodology, the Coast Guard should establish a procedure by which innovative designs can be submitted for their consideration, the report says. They should also encourage the IMO to adopt the methodology so that tankers worldwide can be uniformly evaluated. -- Jennifer Wenger

http://infocusmagazine.org/1.2/tankers.html
 
Fossten, I know the enviroment doesn't have to be made into a complete wasteland in the extraction of oil. But doing things the clean way cost a lot more money and the oil companies do not like their profit margins messed with. Can we agree that making the most amount of money possible is their biggest concern? They will wait, bide their time and do things the good old fashioned cheap way.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Fossten, I know the enviroment doesn't have to be made into a complete wasteland in the extraction of oil. But doing things the clean way cost a lot more money and the oil companies do not like their profit margins messed with. Can we agree that making the most amount of money possible is their biggest concern? They will wait, bide their time and do things the good old fashioned cheap way.
Your argument is not relevant to reality here. The latest vote prevented the oil companies from even doing it the clean way! Your leaders don't want it done at all!

We can't agree on the definition of 'making the most amount of money possible," so the answer is no. I know what you mean by that sentence, and it's different than what I would mean.

The fact is that if there were a larger supply of oil and gas available to us we would see lower prices and less dependence upon foreign oil. What do the Democrats have against that? Oh, that's right, they would have less control over their constituents because they couldn't demagogue Republicans over this issue anymore!
 
fossten said:
Your argument is not relevant to reality here. The latest vote prevented the oil companies from even doing it the clean way! Your leaders don't want it done at all!

We can't agree on the definition of 'making the most amount of money possible," so the answer is no. I know what you mean by that sentence, and it's different than what I would mean.

The fact is that if there were a larger supply of oil and gas available to us we would see lower prices and less dependence upon foreign oil. What do the Democrats have against that? Oh, that's right, they would have less control over their constituents because they couldn't demagogue Republicans over this issue anymore!

Then we can't agree, no shocker there... Since you 'know' what I mean, I'm going to assume what you mean and why we can't agree.

You believe that the BIG OIL companies do not have their profits at the forefront of their minds and they are very concerned with the consumer (us). You also believe that drilling the Artic would be environmentally friendly and the huge surplus of oil would lower prices (significantly) and would lower our dependency of foreign oil.

I do not agree with those five assumptions. They only way to really find out who's correct would be when the drilling begins and we're still paying top dollar for gas and America still has a strong interest in the middle east. Or the opposite.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Then we can't agree, no shocker there... Since you 'know' what I mean, I'm going to assume what you mean and why we can't agree.

You believe that the BIG OIL companies do not have their profits at the forefront of their minds and they are very concerned with the consumer (us). You also believe that drilling the Artic would be environmentally friendly and the huge surplus of oil would lower prices (significantly) and would lower our dependency of foreign oil.

I do not agree with those five assumptions. They only way to really find out who's correct would be when the drilling begins and we're still paying top dollar for gas and America still has a strong interest in the middle east. Or the opposite.

Now you're putting words in my mouth. Classic.

Let's try an exercise: From now on, you just say what YOU think, and I'll just say what I think.

I'll start:

Oil companies have to answer to their stockholders. That means that they are required to maximize profits. My argument is and has always been, since when is that a crime?

Drilling in ANWR would not be environmentally UNfriendly.

Increasing the supply of oil WOULD drive down prices. Anybody who's taken Econ 101 knows that.

By the way, we are no longer paying 'top dollar' for gas, despite your 'begging the question' flawed assumption. My local station is down to $1.99 per gallon.
 
raVeneyes said:
Oh and yeah I hate all the pollution arab nations are causing to a sea that is to saline to support life and the largest patch of arid, also almost completely incapable of supporting life, land in the entire world.
I'm just curious.

What is oil made from?

Is it mostly comprised of fossils and plants?

Plants require sunlight and water to do their thing. Some plants grow in sea water, but most require fresh of brackish water to thrive.

Where am I going with this? Good question.

Please explain how all that oil got under these Arab nations as they are lifeless as you describe?.

Additionally, how did all that oil get up there in that frozen tundra?

Hummm.
 
fossten said:
Now you're putting words in my mouth. Classic.

Let's try an exercise: From now on, you just say what YOU think, and I'll just say what I think.

I'll start:

Oil companies have to answer to their stockholders. That means that they are required to maximize profits. My argument is and has always been, since when is that a crime?

Drilling in ANWR would not be environmentally UNfriendly.

Increasing the supply of oil WOULD drive down prices. Anybody who's taken Econ 101 knows that.

By the way, we are no longer paying 'top dollar' for gas, despite your 'begging the question' flawed assumption. My local station is down to $1.99 per gallon.

<sign> I said I could assume, not that you said these actual words.

Correct, it is not a crime to make a buck, but it is a crime to make a buck in an unethical way. How you do think they 'maximize'? They don't do it by having a high overhead and selling it at rock bottom prices.

Drilling in of itself is environmentally unfriendly, but it can be kept to a minimum, depending on techniques and location.

Increasing supply SHOULD drive down prices. Doesn't guarantee. But it's a futile debate, you don't believe the oil companies gouge us.

I wasn't begging the question, it was a 'What if' we drilled and what you pay now doesn't relate with that question. They haven't drilled, so we don't know what would happen for certain.

Your local station may have a price of $1.99, unfortunately the rest of the country doesn't. Prices still vary. The best I can get is 2.51 for 87 octane at a non top-tier station. They gouge were they can, my opinion.

(Maybe we should take a poll and people can state how much they are paying for Reg & Super according to location.)
 
95DevilleNS said:
Your local station may have a price of $1.99, unfortunately the rest of the country doesn't. Prices still vary. The best I can get is 2.51 for 87 octane at a non top-tier station. They gouge were they can, my opinion.

(Maybe we should take a poll and people can state how much they are paying for Reg & Super according to location.)

You're forgetting to take into account the obvious: The state you live in has a different tax level on gas than my state. That and closeness to a distribution line makes a big difference. I live in Kentucky, not too far from Ashland, which is a major distributor of gasoline. But even in my own city the price can vary as much as 20 cents per gallon from pump to pump. How does big oil have anything to do with that? Location has a lot to do with it, and so does demand, but Exxon does not.

You assume in your statement that the oil companies are gouging, which begs the question.
You've all but acknowledged that you really don't have any idea how the oil companies do their accounting, yet you readily accuse them of gouging. You don't take into account supply, demand, location, stockholders, costs, dividends, or taxes, yet you KNOW they are gouging. That logic is known as oversimplification.
 
hmmm...oversimplification...like saying supply and demand accounts for oil prices...

You do love the taste of your own feet don't you....
 
MonsterMark said:
I'm just curious.

What is oil made from?

Is it mostly comprised of fossils and plants?

Plants require sunlight and water to do their thing. Some plants grow in sea water, but most require fresh of brackish water to thrive.

Where am I going with this? Good question.

Please explain how all that oil got under these Arab nations as they are lifeless as you describe?.

Additionally, how did all that oil get up there in that frozen tundra?

Hummm.

I'm not quite seeing what your point is, but let's clear one thing up first.

The assumption that fossil fuels come from decayed bio matter, is increasingly found to be a false theory. The long strands of carbon and hydrogen can be found throughout our planet and most likely oil deposits are just large groupings of those particular types of hydro-carbons.

Another thing. Over the planet's history Arabia and the Arctic have not always been in the same climactic conditions they exist in now. Plate-tectonics and global climate change have placed Arabia in the center of one of the most arid sections of climate we have, and areas without water do not support life. The Arctic on the other hand has lots of water, and a lot of different types of plant and animal life that have learned to take advantage of the water there. The Arctic is far from the barren land you and fossten made it out to be.
 
fossten said:
You're forgetting to take into account the obvious: The state you live in has a different tax level on gas than my state. That and closeness to a distribution line makes a big difference. I live in Kentucky, not too far from Ashland, which is a major distributor of gasoline. But even in my own city the price can vary as much as 20 cents per gallon from pump to pump. How does big oil have anything to do with that? Location has a lot to do with it, and so does demand, but Exxon does not.

You assume in your statement that the oil companies are gouging, which begs the question.
You've all but acknowledged that you really don't have any idea how the oil companies do their accounting, yet you readily accuse them of gouging. You don't take into account supply, demand, location, stockholders, costs, dividends, or taxes, yet you KNOW they are gouging. That logic is known as oversimplification.


Here's some food for thought... Jersey, they're still paying higher for gas than states that are miles and miles away from a refinery, so it's safe to say 'location has a lot to do with it' isn't always true.

Lol.. You're right, I acknowledged it, I know nothing oh wise one. You say they have a duty to maximize profits, yet you refuse to even acknowledge even the possibility that they do this unethically (gouging). Maybe you're right, the BIG OIL is our friend and they care deeply about us, I just don't see it. If you think that, I have a magic elixer to sell you, it cures any and every problem. Multi billion dollar corporations don't get to that status by being the 'nice guy'.
 

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