Artic refuge saved for another year.

raVeneyes said:
Another thing. Over the planet's history Arabia and the Arctic have not always been in the same climactic conditions they exist in now. Plate-tectonics and global climate change have placed Arabia in the center of one of the most arid sections of climate we have, and areas without water do not support life. The Arctic on the other hand has lots of water, and a lot of different types of plant and animal life that have learned to take advantage of the water there. The Arctic is far from the barren land you and fossten made it out to be.

So what? We drill in Texas too, and that's a densely populated state with lots of water.

You're distracting from the real issue, which is whether or not a tiny piece of land should be drilled for oil, and whether or not it could be done in an environmentally friendly way.

If the Arctic is such a wonderful, lush, paradise, then why don't you go live there?

Oh, by the way, you misquoted me again.

raVeneyes said:
hmmm...oversimplification...like saying supply and demand accounts for oil prices...

You do love the taste of your own feet don't you....

Here's what I actually said:

fossten said:
You don't take into account supply, demand, location, stockholders, costs, dividends, or taxes, yet you KNOW they are gouging.

You do love the taste of your own words don't you...
 
I would invite all anti ANWR drilling groups to please come here and take a look for themselves at what they so oppose. It appears alot of misinformation is spread around by the likes of these groups. Truth be told Prudhoe Bay oilfields are as eco-friendly as oil production can be. Please do not try to link us with the dirtier oil producing parts of the country. We take great pride in preserving Alaska for future generations. We love the nature and great beauty of our state and have great distrust in residents of other states that have polluted and robbed their homeland of its resources but somehow know how we Alaskans should proceed.
 
Mark of Death said:
Drill that place til it looks like swiss cheese


heres a drawing I made to show you a small price for a huge price cut


Is that a reindeer?
rudy.jpg
:biggrin:
 
95DevilleNS said:
Here's some food for thought... Jersey, they're still paying higher for gas than states that are miles and miles away from a refinery, so it's safe to say 'location has a lot to do with it' isn't always true.

Lol.. You're right, I acknowledged it, I know nothing oh wise one. You say they have a duty to maximize profits, yet you refuse to even acknowledge even the possibility that they do this unethically (gouging). Maybe you're right, the BIG OIL is our friend and they care deeply about us, I just don't see it. If you think that, I have a magic elixer to sell you, it cures any and every problem. Multi billion dollar corporations don't get to that status by being the 'nice guy'.

There was gasoline supply, even at higher prices. In the former gasoline crunches, there was rationing and very long lines to get gas.

Which option do you prefer? Maybe they should do it for free? -lol-
 
fossten said:
So what? We drill in Texas too, and that's a densely populated state with lots of water.

You're distracting from the real issue, which is whether or not a tiny piece of land should be drilled for oil, and whether or not it could be done in an environmentally friendly way.
I'm not making a point, other than to discuss points Bryan brought up...so...I guess it's really Bryan that is "distracting from the real issue"

fossten said:
If the Arctic is such a wonderful, lush, paradise, then why don't you go live there?
Because I don't like the cold...

fossten said:
Oh, by the way, you misquoted me again.

For one thing, your loose definition of the word "misquoted" is humorous. I didn't quote you at all...but if you want to know what I'm referring to read this thread: http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=14693

Specifically when you said:
fossten said:
The main reason prices are so high is supply/demand and taxation. You think the oil companies won't have higher costs as a result of this shortage? There was a temporary spike due to the lack of supply versus constant demand, and it's going back down.

And also I refer to that same thread when Calabrio said:
Calabrio said:
What's important to note is that fuel prices are going down.
Supply has increased. (refineries and platforms are back online)
Demand has fallen. (higher prices encouraged more Americans to change driving habits and in some cases, even buy more efficient vehicles.)
Prices are dropping.

Economics isn't nearly as complicated as people want to think. Supply and demand is actually very simple and logical.

And you concurred with the statement by saying:
fossten said:
You'd think, but with these guys, I don't know...



fossten said:
You do love the taste of your own words don't you...
 
I found a 5-year-old article which articulates the debate over ANWR pretty clearly:

Drilling Won't Make It Less of a Refuge

Senator Frank H. Murkowski (AK)
Washington Post Editorial


December 10, 2000 - During the presidential campaign, few issues were as starkly debated as the fate of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. George W. Bush said thatexploration for oil and gas should be allowed there, while Al Gore said it should be forbidden.

In September, former Interior Department lawyer Dennis Drabelle argued in an Outlook article that President Clinton should act to protect the refuge further. Here, Sen. Frank Murkowski (R-Alaska) argues the case for allowing exploration to proceed.

Few people have visited the coastal plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge (ANWR). Yet many environmental activists, along with Vice President Gore, are adamant that no oil or gas exploration should ever take place there.

They have been pressing President Clinton to designate the refuge as a national monument before he leaves office. They want this action even though Congress, under the 1980 legislation establishing the ANWR, is specifically given the responsibility for determining the future status of the coastal plain. Environmentalists often call this area "America's last true wilderness." Let's take a closer look.

All told, the ANWR consists of 19 million acres. Congress has put 8 million acres into formal wilderness status and designated 9.5 million acres as wildlife refuge. Those 17.5 million acres form a protected enclave almost as large as the state of South Carolina. It can never be developed, nor should it be.

In its wisdom, however, Congress set aside the remaining 1.5 million acres of the coastal plain for potential exploration and development because of its oil and gas. Before any exploration could occur, additional legislation had to be passed by Congress. That happened in 1995, but President Clinton vetoed the bill because, he said, the coastal plain was the biological heart of the ANWR and exploration or development would ruin the "pristine" area.

One should ask what his definition of "pristine" is. The coastal plain is host to a village of about 260 Inupiat natives on their 92,000 acres of land. The village of Kaktovik has housing, schools, stores, boats, an airstrip, power lines and a variety of other modern-day facilities, including an oil well. The U.S. military's Barter Island Distant Early Warning System radar site is also on the plain's shoreline.

Most of the residents of Kaktovik favor drilling in the coastal plain, as do more than 70 percent of Alaskans, according to recent polls. (A national survey conducted by the Christian Science Monitor in October showed that Americans support oil production in the ANWR, by a 54 to 36 percent margin.)

There are several other reasons the coastal plain is distinct from the rest of the ANWR. It is not part of the hills and mountains of the Brooks Range, where the environmentalists take their beautiful photos of the ANWR. It is a flat, treeless, almost featureless plain in northeastern Alaska that extends from the Brooks Range northward to the Beaufort Sea. There are times on the coastal plain when exposing human flesh to the elements would ensure death. The temperature can drop to -40 degrees Fahrenheit in January. Few animals can thrive in those temperatures.

Only five species of birds, some polar bears (who den on the Beaufort Sea pack ice) and lemmings (who burrow beneath the snow-pack) remain during the winter months. There are 56 days of total darkness during the year, and almost nine months of harsh winter.

The spring thaw comes in late May or early June. This increases the bird count and brings back the arctic fox and, most significantly, the Porcupine caribou. While only a portion of the caribou herd shows up each year, many environmental activists refer to the coastal plain as their traditional calving grounds. The females endure the conditions of the tundra for protection against most predators and for the cotton grass that will help to fatten their offspring.

The caribou travel to the coastal plain from Canada, passing near 89 dry wells drilled by the Canadian government and crossing Canada's Dempster Highway--all of which seems to be development that does not hinder theirmigration or survival.

Our only experiment with oil fields and caribou has taken place nearby on Alaska's North Slope in Prudhoe Bay. The Central Arctic caribou herd that inhabits part of Prudhoe Bay has grown from 6,000 in 1978 to 19,700 today, according to the most recent estimates by state and federal wildlife agencies.

In fact, there is some evidence that the caribou use un-vegetated and elevated sites such as river bars, mud flats, dunes, gravel pads and roads in the existing oil fields as relief habitat from mosquitoes and from oestrid flies that attack their nostrils. The 1995 legislation vetoed by President Clinton would have given the secretary of Interior the power to stop development and exploration during the summer months if there were any threat to the caribou.

Environmentalists also worry about the polar bear, though most biologists will tell you that the bears rarely den on land in this region, preferring the arctic ice. Alaska's polar bear population is healthy and unthreatened. The Marine Mammals Protection Act takes care of the polar bear in the existing oil fields--and would do the same on the coastal plain.

What do these protections mean to the oil workers in Prudhoe Bay? They are not allowed to harm a polar bear. There are steel cages around many of the doors of the facilities in Prudhoe. That way, workers can look off into the distance for bears before they venture out. No polar bear has been injured or killed as a result of extracting oil in Prudhoe Bay.

In fact, there are no listed endangered species on the North Slope or in the coastal plain. Alaskans have always trod lightly on the land and have honored the animals as a source of sustenance.

Those who would develop the coastal plain, including the oil companies, maintain they can do it on about 2,000 acres or less. Exploration and development is done in the harsh winter months, which allows the use of ice airstrips, ice roads and ice platforms. It is done when no caribou are present.


If the well is dry, it is capped. When the ice melts in late spring, there is little remaining evidence of the work--and minimal impact on the land.

The environmentalists say the trade-off isn't good enough to justify the development. In other words, they don't think there's enough oil there to warrant the exploration.

The U.S. Geological Survey and the federal government's Energy Information Administration estimate that there are possibly 16 billion barrels of oil beneath the surface in the coastal plain. Even at the low end--with about 3.2 billion barrels--the field would be the second-largest ever discovered in the United States.

The first is Prudhoe Bay, which was estimatedin 1968 to hold 9 billion barrels of oil, but which has produced nearly 13 billion barrels--or 20 to 25 percent of the oil produced in this nation for the last 23 years. If there were 16 billion barrels in the coastal plain, it would substitute for what we would otherwise have to import from Saudi Arabia for the next 30 years.

Will development of the coastal plain make us independent of foreign oil? No, but it can make us less dependent. My initial goal in current legislation is to take us from 58 percent dependence to less than 50 percent, through oil and gas development, conservation and renewable energy sources. Development of ANWR is not the only answer.

I applaud the development of alternative and renewable energy sources. But today this nation relies on conventional sources of energy for 96 percent of its power. We need a bridge to the energy future, and that bridge won't be built by ignoring the problem or accepting the rhetoric from the environmentalists.

Vice President Gore, on his campaign Web site, mentions a list of animals in ANWR that would be endangered by drilling, including Dall sheep and moose. But the coastal plain is not their habitat, and it would be rare to see either there: Dall sheep live in the mountains, and the moose live in the foothills.

The extreme environmentalists maintain that the coastal plain is the last 5 percent of the Arctic coastline that is not being drilled. That is nonsense. Only 14 percent of the entire 1,100-mile Arctic coastal plain is open to oil exploration.

The question is, do we develop 2,000 acres out of 19 million and still protect the caribou, the polar bear and all other species? Or do we keep our heads buried in the snow-pack along with the lemmings, Gore and Clinton?

Frank Murkowski is chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources
 
Here's something I found interesting:

raVeneyes said:
I may be mistaken, but I think they're doing the opposite thing. GM is getting rid of workers, while Ford's corporate culture is getting rid of middle managers.

Ford's plan makes much more sense overall, because if GM were to hit a sudden demand increase they'd have to operate at a loss if they were unable to produce cars to keep up with demand, either that or they'd lower the amount of interest because their price point would go skyrocketing. Ford's plan keeps the production expandability while getting rid of excessive management...much better.

Apparently Raveneyes understands how supply and demand can affect prices.
 
fossten said:
Here's something I found interesting:

Apparently Raveneyes understands how supply and demand can affect prices.

Absolutely I know how it *can* affect prices, however I'm not simple minded enough to think that it is the *only* thing that affects prices.
 
raVeneyes said:
Absolutely I know how it *can* affect prices, however I'm not simple minded enough to think that it is the *only* thing that affects prices.

Oh, good, I'm glad we can agree on that. Carry on.
 
fossten said:
Oh, good, I'm glad we can agree on that. Carry on.

Well actually...I don't think we can...you seem to think that it is the *only* way the economics of big oil is changed.

fossten said:
The main reason prices are so high is supply/demand and taxation. You think the oil companies won't have higher costs as a result of this shortage? There was a temporary spike due to the lack of supply versus constant demand, and it's going back down.

Calabrio said:
What's important to note is that fuel prices are going down.
Supply has increased. (refineries and platforms are back online)
Demand has fallen. (higher prices encouraged more Americans to change driving habits and in some cases, even buy more efficient vehicles.)
Prices are dropping.

Economics isn't nearly as complicated as people want to think. Supply and demand is actually very simple and logical.
fossten said:
You'd think, but with these guys, I don't know...

fossten said:
You do love the taste of your own words don't you...
 
RaVeneyez:
You keep speaking of the evil oil company and their wicked ways to make a buck. Whats new? If enviromental issues are of concern I think its better to have a Sierra Club (or New Jersey citizens for protecting Alaska from Alaskans) You decide... In our backyard than thousands of miles away. You would be pleasantly surprised how Prudhoe oil fields are run. Have you seen them? (not the Denali as portrayed on the Sierra and Greenpeace sites).
 
thompsonrod said:
RaVeneyez:
You keep speaking of the evil oil company and their wicked ways to make a buck. Whats new? If enviromental issues are of concern I think its better to have a Sierra Club (or New Jersey citizens for protecting Alaska from Alaskans) You decide... In our backyard than thousands of miles away. You would be pleasantly surprised how Prudhoe oil fields are run. Have you seen them? (not the Denali as portrayed on the Sierra and Greenpeace sites).

Ok, for one lower case r and an s not a z

as far as the rest of it goes:

"I don't know what the F(_)C& you just said, Little Kid, but you're special man, you reached out, and you touch a brother's heart." - Pumpkin Escobar
 
raVeneyes said:
Well actually...I don't think we can...you seem to think that it is the *only* way the economics of big oil is changed.

You misquoted me YET AGAIN. I said "main reason" - (obviously - at least to halfway intelligent people - referring to this particular situation which, by the way, is rapidly achieving equilibrium as supply increases and prices FALL) not "only reason."

And you attributed Calabrio's quote to me?!?

You are losing it.

Go home and study economics, then report back to me.
 

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