Cranks for a while but starts

MisterRoy

MisterRoy

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Good morning! I recently purchased a 2002 Lincoln LS V8 (100K miles) and it just started cranking for a good 4-5 seconds before starting. Once it starts, it runs like a champ. Great power, no hesitation. This originally happened when the car was off for a while (hour or 2) and NOT after sitting all night. Now, it is happening after the car is sitting for at least a half hour.

I've been trying to read what I can. Once the car fires up, there is no stumbling and no fuel smell, so I don't think it's a leaky injector causing a flood condition. The fuel filter was replaced about 1K miles ago, so I don't suspect that. However, without doing a fuel pressure test, it seems like it might be an issue with the fuel pump. I can hear "something" ever so slightly humming for 3-4 seconds when I turn the accessories on before starting.

Does this jive? Am I missing anything?

Thanks!

MisterRoy
 
I'd start with general "tune-up" items. Spark plugs (must set gap to 1.0mm), ignition coils if they aren't all Motorcraft (maybe even if they are) (coils need to be Motorcraft, not aftermarket), filters, check all PCV hoses/tubes, ...

Fuel pump will run a few seconds when you turn the key to "run." It will not come on when you only turn the key to "accessory."

Ignition switch positions-
Locked: You can remove the key
Unlocked: You can shift out of park
Accessory: Radio and windows are powered, no warning lights on dash other than parking brake
Run: Radio and windows + fuel and ignition, warning lights come on, headlights come on if dark and set to auto
Start: The starter engages
 
Ok, so plugs are brand new, one of the coils was replaced right before I purchased the car to address a CEL. I need to change filters. Any more coils will have to wait. No CEL and no driving performance issues so my guess is they are not an immediate need.

Yes, when I typed accessories I meant run, when I hear a noise but I am not sure what it is. It is extremely quiet in the car. I will just have to get my hands on a fuel pressure gauge and see where it’s at after it sits for an hour.
 
MisterRoy said:
How I test this? Would it throw a code if it's not working correctly?

Thanks!
Click to expand...

It should throw a code. The best I can tell you is go to Autozone for them to scan it for free, and see what the print out is that they give you. Might have to trouble shoot, if you have a good mechanic he can help you. It should be a relatively easy fix depending on where the crank sensor is.

Here is what I found:

SOLVED: Engine diagram showing location of crank sensor on - Fixya

Diagram:

Full Size Image - Fixya

I hope this helps you. I would go to Autozone to see what they tell you about any codes first.
 
OK, went to Autozone. (Car fired right up, even after sitting for 8 hours. Now the inconsistency sets in. Fun for troubleshooting.)No codes and they even tested my battery. It is a good battery but needs to be charged. That makes sense as I drive a 98 Accord back and forth to the train every morning. This car gets driven at night or on the weekend.

Honestly, I think I just need to get a fuel pressure gauge on it.

Thanks for the help!
 
A weak battery will cause all kinds of odd things, delayed starting being a possible one.
If the battery "needs to be charged", then it is either bad and/or the alternator is not operating correctly. Put a voltage gauge on the car and see what's going on. Voltage while the engine is running should be about 14.2 to 14.4 volts (13.9 to 14.6 is acceptable). While starting, the voltage should not drop below 9V (ideally, 11V).
 
Next time it does an endless cranking after sitting, loosen the fuel cap (leave it loose) and see if it immediately fires up. If gas caps fail to allow air in, the tank will enter a vacuum.

How Do Vented Gas Caps Work?

I had an issue with 96' Mark VIII somewhere around 75-85k miles. Would run fine, no codes. I'd park it, and a little while later it just crank w/o even trying to fire, then fire right up. During the last time it wouldn't start, I loosened the gas cap and it immediately fired up. Replaced the gas cap, and it never happened again. Sold the car at 128k miles w/o it returning.

I've also seen issues where a blocked fuel return line will cause a crank no-start after prior running i.e. running, park it 30 minutes, then endless crank, w/o necessarily throwing codes.

Crank position sensors can cause it too.
 
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The fuel tank venting on the LS is a bit more complicated. Also, the LS is a returnless fuel system, so no fuel return line at all.
 
Even so, it takes 5 seconds to rule out the cap, unless they found a way to prevent tank vacuum and that cap is no longer drawing air under x amount of vacuum but it's somehow managed by the evap system?

Lawnmowers, while carb'd, are returnless. They can stall if their caps are not vented as well, though it'd need to run awhile.

Another way to look at is get one of those cups with the lid and giant bendy straw. Put your finger over the vent hole and try sucking through it. Assuming the straw has a 100% seal to the lid hole, as does the lid, you won't be able to get much liquid out of it. Fuel tanks are the same way.
 
MisterRoy said:
Good morning! I recently purchased a 2002 Lincoln LS V8 (100K miles) and it just started cranking for a good 4-5 seconds before starting. Once it starts, it runs like a champ. Great power, no hesitation. This originally happened when the car was off for a while (hour or 2) and NOT after sitting all night. Now, it is happening after the car is sitting for at least a half hour.

I've been trying to read what I can. Once the car fires up, there is no stumbling and no fuel smell, so I don't think it's a leaky injector causing a flood condition. The fuel filter was replaced about 1K miles ago, so I don't suspect that. However, without doing a fuel pressure test, it seems like it might be an issue with the fuel pump. I can hear "something" ever so slightly humming for 3-4 seconds when I turn the accessories on before starting.

Does this jive? Am I missing anything?

Thanks!

MisterRoy
Click to expand...
I had the same experience when I first purchased my ls. It got worse during the fall and winter. I did everything everyone mentioned and it turned out to be the fuel pump relay located in the trunk by the battery. Cheap and quick fix. Good luck!
 
HMass1 said:
I had the same experience when I first purchased my ls. It got worse during the fall and winter. I did everything everyone mentioned and it turned out to be the fuel pump relay located in the trunk by the battery. Cheap and quick fix. Good luck!
Click to expand...
Well, I got a wireless obd scanner and purchased the FORscan lite app for my iPhone. I started measuring fuel rail preasure. When I put the car in park it was 50 psi. I turned the car off and after about 30 min it was down to 26psi. I believe it is supposed to be 30-36psi. I believe the issue is the check valve in the fuel pump.

However, I am not sure how the fuel pump relay plays into the issue. I will have to investigate before replacing the pump.
 
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MisterRoy said:
Good morning! I recently purchased a 2002 Lincoln LS V8 (100K miles) and it just started cranking for a good 4-5 seconds before starting. Once it starts, it runs like a champ. Great power, no hesitation. This originally happened when the car was off for a while (hour or 2) and NOT after sitting all night. Now, it is happening after the car is sitting for at least a half hour.

I've been trying to read what I can. Once the car fires up, there is no stumbling and no fuel smell, so I don't think it's a leaky injector causing a flood condition. The fuel filter was replaced about 1K miles ago, so I don't suspect that. However, without doing a fuel pressure test, it seems like it might be an issue with the fuel pump. I can hear "something" ever so slightly humming for 3-4 seconds when I turn the accessories on before starting.

Does this jive? Am I missing anything?

Thanks!

MisterRoy
Click to expand...
Hello
MisterRoy said:
Well, I got a wireless obd scanner and purchased the FORscan lite app for my iPhone. I started measuring fuel rail preasure. When I put the car in park it was 50 psi. I turned the car off and after about 30 min it was down to 26psi. I believe it is supposed to be 30-36psi. I believe the issue is the check valve in the fuel pump.

However, I am not sure how the fuel pump relay plays into the issue. I will have to investigate before replacing the pump.
Click to expand...
Hello
 
I have a 2002 lincoln ls and for the last couple of months I have had a hard time starting it it turns overs but then won't start and after a couple times it's fires up and runs just fine but I also have an issue with the heating and AC control panel not wanting to light up after it starts then once after I'm driving it will turn on by itself, I'm so confused .
 
I still haven't fixed this issue. Time and other issues have crept up and my time has been there. I will say this is def temp related. As the temp in Chicago has gotten colder, this happens less since the car cools down quicker.
 
Ahart said:
I have a 2002 lincoln ls and for the last couple of months I have had a hard time starting it it turns overs but then won't start and after a couple times it's fires up and runs just fine but I also have an issue with the heating and AC control panel not wanting to light up after it starts then once after I'm driving it will turn on by itself, I'm so confused .
Click to expand...

Check the battery voltage while starting the car and while driving. It should be over 10V while starting, and 14.2 to 14.6V while driving.
 
I know it's been a while but I want to reply to this thread. I've replaced all the coils and this long crank when hot issue still exists but I have more information. I've been looking at Forscan information when this occurs. The car is recognizing misfires when the crank is long, anywhere from 8-33 has been what I've observed. When the car does start, all the misfiring goes away and the car runs like a champ. Gas mileage and power went up immediately after putting new coils in. (FWIW, the misfires with the long crank has been the case before I changed even one coil.)

With thoughts around a leaky injector, I put the pedal to the floor after the car was sitting for a few hours knowing the issue would occur. This resulted in a longer crank (3-4 seconds) and the car fired up like it would normally with the long crank condition. I was under the impression that holding the gas pedal down would shut off the injectors and no fuel would be released. Is this not the case?
 
Oh, and my battery is at 14.21 while driving. It dropped to just under 14 a few times at a stop, but only briefly when I turned the rear defroster on.
 
It's possible that the PCM only reduces the fuel instead of completely turning it off for clear flood mode.
If you release the gas pedal while still cranking, clear flood mode is canceled and normal fuel injection immediately resumes.
If there was enough fuel still in the cylinder(s) to for enough ignition for the engine to get to 600 RPM (might be a different threshold, I don't know), then clear flood mode will cancel and normal operation will resume.

If you have a leaky injector, then it should run pretty rough for a few seconds after a "long crank."

Interestingly, there is a TSB for the 2002 LS (TSB #0373) with the summary "Summary: ENGINE FLOOD DURING COLD START, EXTENDED CRANKING TIME, OR HARD TO START ENGINE WHEN COLD."
I think I have this TSB, but I don't have it with me. I'll check tonight if I remember.
 
joegr said:
It's possible that the PCM only reduces the fuel instead of completely turning it off for clear flood mode.
If you release the gas pedal while still cranking, clear flood mode is canceled and normal fuel injection immediately resumes.
If there was enough fuel still in the cylinder(s) to for enough ignition for the engine to get to 600 RPM (might be a different threshold, I don't know), then clear flood mode will cancel and normal operation will resume.

If you have a leaky injector, then it should run pretty rough for a few seconds after a "long crank."

Interestingly, there is a TSB for the 2002 LS (TSB #0373) with the summary "Summary: ENGINE FLOOD DURING COLD START, EXTENDED CRANKING TIME, OR HARD TO START ENGINE WHEN COLD."
I think I have this TSB, but I don't have it with me. I'll check tonight if I remember.
Click to expand...

Joe, thanks for this. Maybe the misfires detected after the long crank qualify for the engine running rough, but it's so short it's hardly noticeable. I think I need to pop the fuel rails off and see what's going on with the injectors.

Let's say it's not the injectors, is it possibly a sensor that isn't broken enough to throw the CEL but doesn't quite get the air-fuel mixture right?

You don't have to spend any time on the TSB but I do appreciate the offer. I have the alldata subscription and I found this:
NOTE THIS ARTICLE IS ONLY APPLICABLE FOR COLD ENGINE STARTING CONCERNS WHICH OCCUR SPECIFICALLY BETWEEN 30-40°F (-1-5°C), COMBINED WITH A HUMIDITY LEVEL GREATER THAN 75%. IF THE STARTING CONCERN DOES NOT OCCUR WHEN THE ENGINE IS COLD, DO NOT CONTINUE WITH THIS PROCEDURE. IF THE STARTING CONCERN OCCURS WHEN THE AMBIENT CONDITIONS ARE OUTSIDE THE RANGE DESCRIBED IN THIE3 ARTICLE, DO NOT CONTINUE WITH THIS PROCEDURE. REFER TO THE PC/ED (POWERTRAIN CONTROL/EMISSION DIAGNOSIS) MANUAL FOR DIAGNOSIS.
 
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Look at the crank and cam sensors in real time when it is having the problem. One of them might be slow to respond when hot?
 
You mentioned replacing the COPs but we’re the plugs replaced when you did this? All over this site it’s recommended to replace all COPs and spark plugs at once.

However, the typical symptoms are poor idle/rough running so it’s probably not your problem although it’s a possibility with the misfires.
 
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