cruel and unusual

[mach8]

Despite the merits of the case does a judge really have the authority to condem someone to die by dehydration and starvation?
Even serial killers, child rapist/killers, and the like are killed by the government in a manner that is as painless as possible.
Why is Terri Schiavo being killed by the ACLU, liberal courts, and the Culture of Death like a dog left by the side of the road after being hit by a car?
Anyone familiar with the circumstances can tell something fishy is going on here, but if everyone wants to stand back and kill this woman couldn't they find a humane way to do her in, or do they feel that would make them responsible for her death, more than refusing her food? We treat terrorist better than this! This could happen to YOU!, your wife, your child. It's not just a news story, you should be concerned that society is taking this road.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I have to agree with you.
Pulling the feeding tube is no different than giving her a lethal injection.
The person removing the tube is just as guilty of commiting murder as if he or she had shot her.
The only difference here is that it is taking longer for her to sucumb.
This is disgraceful and very scary.
I do applaud the congress, President Bush and, Governor Bush.
They did what they could.
The judicial system in this country needs a major overhall.
Some where along the way, someone dropped the ball.
If there was the slightest doubt as to her condition, the tubes should have been re-inserted until further studies could be made.
I am sick over this and I hope when the time comes, her husband suffers three times fold for the suffering he has put his wife, and this nation through.
He deserves the worst of the worst.
I heard on the news yesterday that someone put out a contract on him and the judge in Florida who kept denying the appeals.

 

[Marine]

I agree with most of that, except that the husband is guilty of nothing. He's been put in a bad spot, as has her parents. I feel bad that these poor people have been forced to make this decision, and that all this has had to happen Please, get a living will so that this doesnt happen to you or the ones you love.

It's terrible that she has to be starved to death, serial killers get a more humane death than that. The whole situation is heartbreaking.

 

[formerknown]

 

[MonsterMark]

This case says it all when it comes to just vs unjust, left vs right, liberal vs conservative, Republican vs Democrat. This is a great litmus test to see where you stand politically. The left and the libs side with the viewpoint that a human being should be starved to death. Death by dehydration is one of the most cruel ways to die. The fact that people are willing to sit and let that happen says it all as far as I am concerned.

If you did this to a cat or dog, they'd put you in jail. How's that for hypocrisy?

 

[barry2952]

On a personal level Bryan. I recall that you said your grandmother was a terminal patient. You said that you watched her decline. Wouldn't it have been kinder to let her go naturally rather than keep the embers alive through artificial means?

 

[MonsterMark]

No artificial means were used to keep her alive longer than nature intended. My wife is an ICU nurse and she deals with death daily. People wear bracelets that say "NO CODE", which means if their heart fails, they should not be resussitated. The family members come in and demand that everything be done to keep them alive. 85, 90 year old people. I think that is wrong. In our family's instance, we agreed that we would let nature take its course. It was intense to see her fight for every last breath. Heart wrenching. She was a fighter all her life, right to the very end. All we did was give her some meds to ease her pain. That's it. We didn't nor would we starve her to end her life prematurely. Schaivo can breath on her own, she just can't eat. This is a different situation. If the will of the people and courts intent is to see her die, there are so many more compassionate ways of doing it.


I really want to see her pop out of it. At the last second, to just snap out of it and then people would freak. I know that won't happen but it would sure be great. Just give her an overdose of morphine and be done with it. Why the agony? Dehydration causes intense pain. Why is that necessary?

On a personal level Bryan. I recall that you said your grandmother was a terminal patient. You said that you watched her decline. Wouldn't it have been kinder to let her go naturally rather than keep the embers alive through artificial means?

 

[barry2952]

Bryan,

The "agony" as you put it doesn't exist as she has no higher brain functions. I've seen her x-rays and there is nothing but spinal fluid where there is supposed to be brain matter. How can she feel pain? Ask your wife about this, please.

If Florida were not so conservative they would have an assisted suicide law like Oregon. If they were to overdose her with Morphine at this stage the doctor would be guilty of murder under Florida law. What's wrong with this picture?

I'm not bashing conservatives like Jeb but you have to acknowledge that you would want your wife making this decision instead of some politician looking for brownie points, right?

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

No artificial means were used to keep her alive longer than nature intended. .............. We didn't nor would we starve her to end her life prematurely. Schaivo can breath on her own, she just can't eat. This is a different situation.

In case you don't know, a feeding tube IS "artificial means", no different than an artificial resperator. If GOD had intended for us to be fed by a tube, he/she would've provided a natural connection to our stomachs.

......, there are so many more compassionate ways of doing it.

I agree here, however they are illegal. And I'd have a hard time arguing that this would NOT be overstepping the bounds of letting nature take it's course.

Why the agony? Dehydration causes intense pain. Why is that necessary?

Terri is NOT feeling any pain, starvation & dehydration does NOT cause pain, even if she was concious.

Pulling the feeding tube is no different than giving her a lethal injection.
The person removing the tube is just as guilty of commiting murder as if he or she had shot her.
The only difference here is that it is taking longer for her to sucumb.

You are SO wrong on this Bob. See above comments.

I do applaud the congress, President Bush and, Governor Bush.
They did what they could.

Those clowns, along w/ Frist and DeLay, are now exposed for what they truly are. A bunch of hypocritical oppertunists.

If there was the slightest doubt as to her condition, the tubes should have been re-inserted until further studies could be made.

Dude, 15 years has transpired, NUMEROUS doctors have been reviewing this case for well over a DECADE and they ALL conclude the SAME thing (except of course the un-informed Mr. Frist). This case has been examined, re-examined, appealed, re-appealed more times than it deserved. There is NO doubt amonst the doctors and judges directly involved w/ Terri about her condition or her abilities to recover from this. The ONLY doubt is in the minds of those who think they can benefit politically from stirring this pot.

I am sick over this and I hope when the time comes, her husband suffers three times fold for the suffering he has put his wife, and this nation through.
He deserves the worst of the worst.
I heard on the news yesterday that someone put out a contract on him and the judge in Florida who kept denying the appeals.

So when did 2 WRONGS begin to make a RIGHT? If you and all the other naysayers who are convinced that Michael Shaivao is so EVIL and is doing the devil's work, he'll get his come-uppance when he approaches the pearly gates. That is between HIM and GOD. WHO the F**K are YOU or anyone else to play GOD's JUDGE?? The people to blame for elevating this case to the front page and "putting this nation through pain" is Terri's parents and the above named politicians who don't know when to butt out of this MARRIED COUPLE's lives! To borrow a recent, tired pharase, I have only this to say to you, the Shindlers and all their supporters: YOU LOST, GET OVER IT!

 

[MonsterMark]

Hey Johnny...

I heard the other day someone make a great point in regards to this case. Most on the left are of the opinion that because she is on a feeding tube, she should be killed because she couldn't feed herself. Humm, OK. As I recall, Christopher Reeves also could not feed himself. I guess we should have 'offed' him sooner too.

 

[MonsterMark]

A conscious [cognitively disabled] person would feel it just as you or I would. They will go into seizures. Their skin cracks, their tongue cracks, their lips crack. They may have nosebleeds because of the drying of the mucus membranes, and heaving and vomiting might ensue because of the drying out of the stomach lining. They feel the pangs of hunger and thirst. Imagine going one day without a glass of water! Death by dehydration takes ten to fourteen days. It is an extremely agonizing death.

After seven to nine days [from commencing dehydration] they begin to lose all fluids in the body, a lot of fluids in the body. And their blood pressure starts to go down. When their blood pressure goes down, their heart rate goes up. . . . Their respiration may increase and then . . . the blood is shunted to the central part of the body from the periphery of the body. So, that usually two to three days prior to death, sometimes four days, the hands and the feet become extremely cold. They become mottled. That is you look at the hands and they have a bluish appearance. And the mouth dries a great deal, and the eyes dry a great deal and other parts of the body become mottled. And that is because the blood is now so low in the system it's shunted to the heart and other visceral organs and away from the periphery of the body . .

Just a couple excerpts on dying from dehydration.

​

 

[barry2952]

What do you recommend Bryan? Starvation and deydration is legal. Morphine overdose is not. That's Florida law.

What would you want for yourself or your loved ones in this situation?

Would you want your parents or your wife making the final decision?

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

Hey Johnny...

I heard the other day someone make a great point in regards to this case. Most on the left are of the opinion that because she is on a feeding tube, she should be killed because she couldn't feed herself. Humm, OK. As I recall, Christopher Reeves also could not feed himself. I guess we should have 'offed' him sooner too.

Hey Bryan....

I heard the other day someone make a great point in regards to this case. Most on the right are of the opinion that she should be continued to be tortured and denied meeting her maker by being kept alive because she is in a persistant vegitative state and can't complain, and thus those on the right can claim plausable deniability: "It our word against a vegitable."

Only a MORON would believe or buy into your "most on the left" argument above, in fact NO ONE on the left has even remotely suggested such a moronic thing. APPLES and ORANGES! Reeves had a functioning brain right up until death. And what is your source of info on the "dehydration" effects, you make that up too? Keep on grasping...... I'm reloading......

 

[MonsterMark]

What do you recommend Bryan? Starvation and deydration is legal. Morphine overdose is not. That's Florida law.

I find it very peculiar that she was not supposed to feel any pain, in fact, she was unable to feel any pain, and now comes the morphine trick. I had to laugh when they said they were going to administer the morphine to speed up the process.

My opinion. If the parents want to love and care for their daughter and they have the means to pay the hospice care, they should be allowed to.

I have heard enough about this guy to not like him. He has been offered over $5,000,000 in cash to just go away. At one point, it was all about the money. I understand the Schaivos received a large settlement and he spent most of the money on himself and not on her care. Enough said. She's past the point of no return anyway.

 

[MonsterMark]

And what is your source of info on the "dehydration" effects, you make that up too?

Source...St. Louis neurologist William Burke.

 

[FreeFaller]

Only those who have never seen the dead think that it makes any difference how they got there.

If it were me I would quit pussyfooting around and kill her quickly and painlessly. Call me mean, heartless or cold but I would have made my decision and resolved it quickly.

If I truly loved my wife I would fulfill her wishes despite any punishment that might befall me. A final act of love. Damn everyone else and their many "rightous" beliefs. I only hope that my wife would do the same.

Both sides of this family should be thoroughly ashamed of themselves. Especially the husband who says he is fulfilling his wife's wishes but does not have the balls to just do it.

 

[MonsterMark]

I actually agree Steve.You can kill her by starving her but not kill her more humanely. Interesting, isn't it?

 

[FreeFaller]

Of course it all depends on what the definition of "humane" is. I always though it meant to involve minimal pain (mental and physical).

So what pain are we talking about here. The physical pain of slowly dying which can be felt (if not comprehended) at a cellular level. Or the mental pain of being in a vegatative state.

But then again people starve to death every day all over the world...how come all the sudden people give a crap about this girl. That's right...cause it was on the news today. Anybody talking about Iraq today...no...not the story of the day...aaarrrghhh. Most people can barely take care of the plants in their house let alone their families. But all the sudden they feel like they know what's best for this woman. Almost funny...

 

[MonsterMark]

What's funny is the side that 'claims' to be for the little guy and peole that can't help themselves are the very ones taking away her rights precisely because she can't defend herself. So you're right. It is funny.

 

[MrWilson]

In case you don't know, a feeding tube IS "artificial means", no different than an artificial resperator. If GOD had intended for us to be fed by a tube, he/she would've provided a natural connection to our stomachs.

I believe we call that a belly button

 

[FreeFaller]

I believe we call that a belly button

*owned*

I don't care which side of the equation your'e on...that's a good comeback...

 

[barry2952]

There you go again Bryan, shooting off your big mouth without knowing the facts.

There was a $1,000,000 malpractice settlement. $700,000 went into trust for her continued care. $300,000 went to him for loss of companionship.

The $700,000 was spent early on for her care. When that money was gone Medicare took over her health care costs.

Out of his $300,000 he spent a large portion on some experimental therapy that implanted electrodes in her brain. As it was experimental, Medicare wouldn't pay for it so he did. He still has about $40,000 from his settlement.

Dont you feel like an a$$hole now?

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

I believe we call that a belly button

Shows how much you know......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umbilical_cord

The "belly button" is what remains of the umbilical cord, and does NOT connect to the stomach. Even IF medical technology were able to re-use whats left of the umbilical cord to provide nutrition, it would still be considered artificial life support. God's intended purpose of the umbilical cord ends at birth. Nice try.

*owned*

But then again people starve to death every day all over the world...how come all the sudden people give a crap about this girl. That's right...cause it was on the news today. Anybody talking about Iraq today...no...not the story of the day...aaarrrghhh. Most people can barely take care of the plants in their house let alone their families. But all the sudden they feel like they know what's best for this woman. Almost funny...

Yep, quite sad, almost funny, very hypocritical.

What's funny is the side that 'claims' to be for the little guy and peole that can't help themselves are the very ones taking away her rights precisely because she can't defend herself. So you're right. It is funny.

You are obviously referring to the GOP side. For it is precisely them who are interferring with HER right to die, her husband is only DEFENDING her rights, and he has gotten confirmation from the courts every step of the way. In FACT, if you'd pull your head out, do your HOMEWORK and read up on the FACTS of this case instead of listening to the "he-said, she-said" CRAP, you'd find that it was NOT her husband who made the final decision to remove her feeding tube, it was the COURTS. How can anyone possibly blame Michael Schaivo for obeying the law and suggest that he break the law by taking her life into his own hands?

My opinion. If the parents want to love and care for their daughter and they have the means to pay the hospice care, they should be allowed to.

Allowed to do WHAT? Violate the LAW? Violate their daughter's wishes and right to die under these circumstances? Violating the sanctitiy of marriage between Terri and Michael? Allow them to DENY their daughter from ending her suffering and meeting her maker? WTF planet are you from?? HOW can you possibly call yourself a christian?

I have heard enough about this guy to not like him. He has been offered over $5,000,000 in cash to just go away. At one point, it was all about the money. I understand the Schaivos received a large settlement and he spent most of the money on himself and not on her care. Enough said. She's past the point of no return anyway.

And he turned those cash offers down. THAT takes GUTS and COMMITMENT to his WIFE. And your knocking him for THAT?? Walking away would've been the EASY thing for him to do. Again, WTF planet are you from?? That settlement WAS spent on her care, and was at the core of the fall-out between the Schaivos and the Schindlers, and if it hadn't been for her parent's fighting this since '98, there'd probably be some of that left from the legal battles to fight over. But it's gone now, thanks to the Schindlers.

 

[straps]

Here's my 2 cents worth:
First, if everyone had kept their noses out of this family's business, including her parents, and let her husband( and legal guardiian) deal with this tragic situation
15 years ago, this poor woman would not be put through this travesty now. What a disgrace.
Second, God forbid that I would be in this situation, I would rather have my wife make the decisions about my welfare, regardless of how people perceive her intentions , rather than a political whore like Jeb Bush who only cares about this poor woman as long as it keeps him on the front page and kick starts his presidential campaign.
Third: Why is it that Congress has the audacity to presume that it is wise enough to make decisions about this poor soul based on incomplete secondhand information , in a matter of days, when they can't decide the fate of millions after endless debate.
lastly, as if there weren't enough" distinguished " media hacks and whores involved in this circus, I just heard on the news that we can expect a visit from the Reverend Jessie Jackson.Thank God that someone who has demonstrated his firm committment to his own family values will now weigh in. The only one missing now is the Rev. Al Sharpton.
Everyone should just back off and let this poor woman go. Maybe remember her in our prayers and pray that we are never tested the way that this family has been.

 

[barry2952]

Another thing that people don't understand about her husband is that he made sure she had the best care from day 1. She got extraordinary rehabilitative care initially. The medical professionals were responsible for discontinuing that care when it was deemed fruitless. It was only then that he took her for the experimental surgury. This man went to great lengths to fulfill his marital obligations. I'm not saying he's heroic but he certainly went further than most of you would have, under the circumstances.

The dispute with the in-laws stems from them wanting a share of the malpractice settlement because they felt the were entitled due to their "loss of companionship". Obviously they had no standing and were denied as they have been in every court of law in the land.

He is villified because he took up with another woman and had two children with her. Is this guy not entitled to a life? How many of you would have waited 15 years?