Quik LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Shiloh is only talking the V6 here.
Geoff (the guy the is behind this BDT project and my SC project) is still working with me on the SC for the V8. And we have successfully passed the 350+ mark without NOS.
Custom Lincoln LS Turbo
- Thread starter Shiloh
- Start date
Shiloh is only talking the V6 here.
Geoff (the guy the is behind this BDT project and my SC project) is still working with me on the SC for the V8. And we have successfully passed the 350+ mark without NOS.
hockey930
Well-Known LVC Member
are they really 4 grand???
Jayce 1971
Active LVC Member
knock sensor?
Saab came out with a "ping detector" on the 16V 900 turbos. I've seen other vehicles retrofitted with this. I believe it somehow gets rid of boost when knock is sensed (not sure if it's wastegate like or adjust timing or what but it does it within milliseconds). Might be a good idea for the boost crowd...save an engine, maybe? Just a thought.
Saab came out with a "ping detector" on the 16V 900 turbos. I've seen other vehicles retrofitted with this. I believe it somehow gets rid of boost when knock is sensed (not sure if it's wastegate like or adjust timing or what but it does it within milliseconds). Might be a good idea for the boost crowd...save an engine, maybe? Just a thought.
Quik LS
Dedicated LVC Member
almost all modern engines use a knock sensor - including our LS. It retards the timing when it detects knock (most of them are a piezoelectric sensor). That is one of the ways the PCM detects a mis-fire.
Jayce 1971
Active LVC Member
Damn...
I really need to get with the times, hugh?
I really need to get with the times, hugh?I'm going to add another smile in my sig.....
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
Forced induction is not cheap. I am curious to see what you 6'er guys will be running with this combo when it is available for you. Should make things a little more interesting.
cleanLS
Active LVC Member
+1 ^
hockey930
Well-Known LVC Member
Forced induction can be cheap, my other ride has a holset hx35/40 turbo with custom manifold, downpipe, external gate, standalone fuel and spark, msd, cam, nitrous, huge ic, 1000cc injectors, and all of that still cost less then then 4 grand. They are talking about a charger, bracket, tune, and single maybe cold start injector (either way 12 volt extra injector) for 4 grand. You see why I am a little leary?
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
I am neither vouching for, nor campaigning against this kit or its pricing. My statement was meant purely in a general sense of how expensive FI can get.
FI can be less expensive when you do the work yourself but even then I do not consider it cheap. Cheap is somewhat a relative term but most would agree that FI gets expensive pretty quick. Even with the dealer pricing I get from some of the manufacturers I sell parts for, and no labor charges due to me doing all my own work, it still gets expensive when you do all the essential upgrades.
I have done some high quality custom turbo systems for less than $2,000 before using all new name brand parts. I have also done full progressive controlled wet nitrous systems for less than $400 with all the bells and whistles. Just because some of us can do that, doesn't mean others are able to. Consider yourself in the minority here as most cannot do their own custom work. :Beer
BDT Turbo + AER Noble 3.0=300-500hp
This thread is from the SVT Contour forum. Maybe long winded but the basis of the thread is that a company, AER is selling this motor for 4K +. Balanced and blue printed, all forged internals, 8.5 compression, turbo grind camshafts long block.
Noble uses this motor with twin turbos=500hp.
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/s...mber=1278154&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
This thread is from the SVT Contour forum. Maybe long winded but the basis of the thread is that a company, AER is selling this motor for 4K +. Balanced and blue printed, all forged internals, 8.5 compression, turbo grind camshafts long block.
Noble uses this motor with twin turbos=500hp.
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/s...mber=1278154&page=&view=&sb=5&o=&fpart=1&vc=1
Is the BDT worth the money; to me it is a no brainer. Where else can you go for approaching 100 hp for four grand? No where. What something is worth to someone is relative; I have an audio/gps sytem which exceeds 4k and to me it is well worth the money for the guttural impact of Gabriel singing Lamb Lies Down On Broadway and the crisp strings of Vivaldi's Four Seasons. As with any new product intial costs are high; remember DVD's, LCD/Plasma TV's, prices have consistently fallen since introduction. ATS Turbo, Geoff Knight has BDT's starting at 1700 which have been out for quite a while. This is a brand new product which has taken months to develope. In the kit you get the following:T70/T18A10-BDT, Dual Pulley Shaft, CNC BDT Mounting Plate, Mountimg Hardware, BDT Timing Belt, Additional Injector(30 lbs/hr), Pressure Switch(adjustable 1-7 PSI, Aluminum Pipes, Silicone Hoses and Clamps, Fuel Line & 'T' (High Pressure F.l. Hose), Boost Gauge, Misc. Vac hoses and Fittings, Clamps, Tie Wraps, Misc Wire & Terminals. You get EVERYTHING you need to completely install the system.
You might think that it is a lot of money for a little bit of Hardware; you're right it is. You are also paying for the months of developement and the concept. Lets not lose sight of the end result; BDT owners will get a performance increase which cannot be achieved as simply, as effectively and as trouble free any other way regardless of the money expended.
Each of us has to decide for themselves value of any given product. I sent Geoff Knight multiple thousands many months ago to get this project started, Why: because I have a beautiful car with almost perfect weight distribution, great handling and luxury accomodations which was underpowered. There is nothing after market available and I did not want to get involved with custom engine building which would have cost far more. Am I happy with the result, Would I do it again, Is it worth the money; The answer is Yes, Yes and Yes.
You might think that it is a lot of money for a little bit of Hardware; you're right it is. You are also paying for the months of developement and the concept. Lets not lose sight of the end result; BDT owners will get a performance increase which cannot be achieved as simply, as effectively and as trouble free any other way regardless of the money expended.
Each of us has to decide for themselves value of any given product. I sent Geoff Knight multiple thousands many months ago to get this project started, Why: because I have a beautiful car with almost perfect weight distribution, great handling and luxury accomodations which was underpowered. There is nothing after market available and I did not want to get involved with custom engine building which would have cost far more. Am I happy with the result, Would I do it again, Is it worth the money; The answer is Yes, Yes and Yes.
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
http://www.contour.org/ubbthreads/sh...=&fpart=1&vc=1
I went there, and to my surprise, the motor is done in Marshall, Virginia, a town of only 600 people where I grew up as a boy. A small, small, world.
I went there, and to my surprise, the motor is done in Marshall, Virginia, a town of only 600 people where I grew up as a boy. A small, small, world.
This motor is balanced and blueprinted, all forged internals for $4300! It also comes with 8.5:1 compression. So with the BDT at around $3500 plus the $4300 for the built motor.....too bad the rest of the drive train wouldn't last.
AndrewCoja
Well-Known LVC Member
That link is broken, got one that works?
Quik LS
Dedicated LVC Member
that is one of my favorite engines - I have owned several cars with 3.0L duratec and they all have been very trouble free. I had the chance to track a Noble with that twin-turbo 3.0L in Dallas last year. The owner bought the Noble as a rolling chassis and then had to buy the drivetrain seperately (that may be the way they sell all of them).
The engine was fantastic. The car's balance was so-so....
The engine was fantastic. The car's balance was so-so....
ILLS
Dedicated LVC Member
I have zero personal experience with the Noble vehicles. I would have expected more out of them. That is too bad because I always got the impression that the handling and balance is what they really touted with that car.
Quik LS
Dedicated LVC Member
it seemed like the trunk was filled with water - kind of a weight shift would happen late - then again, it likely had more to do with the amature behind the wheel of someone else's expensive car....
Stevecooper
New LVC Member
Where is the gas tank located? If it’s like a pre 05 mustang it might be behind the rear axel. This is something I have noticed on my 01 Mustang Bullitt track car.
The lincoln LS does a pretty good job of locating the tank in the middle (well close to it) of the car. This really helps with the feeling you are talking about because now all four wheels are taking the affect of weight shifting.
Oh by the way I have been following your SC setup and it looks great. I have an 01 V8 sport waiting for a kit
BDT V Traditional Turbo Costs
If you read my post #38 you will see that you get far more for your dollar than the few items that you mention and the cost is $3495. This basic kit will function quite well however for optimun performance you would upgrade all injectors and reflash the ECU; this option is available for $3995.
As I believe ILLS mentioned; not everybody has your mechanical and technical abilities necessary to "scratch" customize their rides. For the average owner who looks to the "aftermarket" we feel that the BDT represents tremendous performance, ease of installation, trouble free operation and VALUE. Looking at available "TURBO KITS" and in most cases the additional parts necessary (intercooler, waste gates, boost gauge, piping,ect)combined with the extensive labor involved with installation the ATS BDT TURBO is more than competively priced. You certainly, as do others, have the right to disagree.
On a side note: I really enjoy knowing that my little V6 will eat all but a handful of modified LS V8's for breakfast and her name is WISPER.
If you read my post #38 you will see that you get far more for your dollar than the few items that you mention and the cost is $3495. This basic kit will function quite well however for optimun performance you would upgrade all injectors and reflash the ECU; this option is available for $3995.
As I believe ILLS mentioned; not everybody has your mechanical and technical abilities necessary to "scratch" customize their rides. For the average owner who looks to the "aftermarket" we feel that the BDT represents tremendous performance, ease of installation, trouble free operation and VALUE. Looking at available "TURBO KITS" and in most cases the additional parts necessary (intercooler, waste gates, boost gauge, piping,ect)combined with the extensive labor involved with installation the ATS BDT TURBO is more than competively priced. You certainly, as do others, have the right to disagree.
On a side note: I really enjoy knowing that my little V6 will eat all but a handful of modified LS V8's for breakfast and her name is WISPER.
Quik LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Shiloh - my advice (I know you didn't ask for it) - until you are running careful about mentioning what is and is not included in the kit. Focus on getting up and going - it's an exciting project and the first for the V6s.
IMHO - Tuning is an absolute must and that can only be done by a SCT tuning device (and likely a shop who tunes using the SCT products). You can get better performance by running closer to MBT (minimum for best torque) spark or LBT (lean best torque) fuelling. The LS already runs LBT fuel (approximately 12:1 air/fuel ratio, compared to the normal stoichiometric 14.6:1) at wide open throttle (or wide open pedal for 2003+). Spark is normally the minimum of MBT and "borderline" (the spark level at which knock begins occurring). This is normally the only place where there's room for improvement from the PCM. But running closer to MBT when you're borderline limited would mean running higher octane fuel. But the LS already runs on premium, so we do not have as much room to wiggle.
So you will not have as much PCM automatic adjustment to compensate for the additional air you are injesting since we are already running close to the limits in stock form - hence the need for tuning and the fuel system upgrade. Working in the cost of the additional tuner, fuel injectors, tuning, ....etc.
Think of it this way - if you were going to add N2O for an extra 75hp you should not simply add a dry system (hoping the fuel system would some how compensate and add more fuel - you would have to go wet to add the additional fuel since our fuel system are already running near their design limits. Gone are the days where the PCM and injectors has a 25% play.
So your BDT is doing the same thing - adding more air.
I'm sure Robert can explain it better....
IMHO - Tuning is an absolute must and that can only be done by a SCT tuning device (and likely a shop who tunes using the SCT products). You can get better performance by running closer to MBT (minimum for best torque) spark or LBT (lean best torque) fuelling. The LS already runs LBT fuel (approximately 12:1 air/fuel ratio, compared to the normal stoichiometric 14.6:1) at wide open throttle (or wide open pedal for 2003+). Spark is normally the minimum of MBT and "borderline" (the spark level at which knock begins occurring). This is normally the only place where there's room for improvement from the PCM. But running closer to MBT when you're borderline limited would mean running higher octane fuel. But the LS already runs on premium, so we do not have as much room to wiggle.
So you will not have as much PCM automatic adjustment to compensate for the additional air you are injesting since we are already running close to the limits in stock form - hence the need for tuning and the fuel system upgrade. Working in the cost of the additional tuner, fuel injectors, tuning, ....etc.
Think of it this way - if you were going to add N2O for an extra 75hp you should not simply add a dry system (hoping the fuel system would some how compensate and add more fuel - you would have to go wet to add the additional fuel since our fuel system are already running near their design limits. Gone are the days where the PCM and injectors has a 25% play.
So your BDT is doing the same thing - adding more air.
I'm sure Robert can explain it better....
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
In a short space, you have done a nigh-perfect job of outlining the background requirements and efforts necessary to make more power in a modern computer-controlled engine. My hat's off !!
KenS from Ben's Place