Dear Leftists...So Obama is not a Kenyan Huh?

[Kstills]

Actually, that's disputed.....SNIP!!!

Unless there exists proof that a: his mother was not a US citizen, or 2) he was not born in Hawaii, nothing else matters.

And his mother's citizenship isn't even all that important, iirc correctly. Born in the US makes you a US citizen, regardless...

 

[foxpaws]

It's typical of you to dismiss things like this, but I'll pretend you're being genuine for the sake of discussion.

Do you think his positions or philosophy has changed since then? If so, when did it change and why?

And weren't you the one who was trying to argue that he WAS NOT a "socialist or revolutionary" while in college, despite the claims to the contrary?

I don't think he was a socialist or revolutionary in college. Just because you write a paper about possibilities available under different governmental systems doesn't mean that you embrace them. You are trying to get a grade, not define your political philosophy for the next 75 years...

So, as a woman, if you write a paper regarding promiscuity and sexual opportunity for college women in Ivy League schools, and tying it to higher grades and better opportunities for scholarships and grants, does that mean you also need to embrace those ideals... Of course not. You are writing a paper and going for a grade.

Writing about something for a grade, and actually believing in it, hook, line and sinker? When did this become a requirement in college?

So none of you did anything in college that you now feel perhaps wasn't a really great idea, and perhaps, if you were running for the highest office in the land you might not feel comfortable having out there? Heck, I probably did things last weekend that I wouldn't feel comfortable having out there

I think it's deeper than that. He's not saying, "I'm Kenyan on my father's side."

And that is represented by his name change.
Barry Soetero is related to differently than Barrack Hussein Obama.
That name change is a very pronounced statement of his outward identity, something that is only reinforced by his politics, studies, influences, and who he chose to associate with.

And I say I am Norwegian, if I am here in the states - when I travel abroad, I am an American... And would I have changed my name to reflect my nationality - probably not - it already does. I haven't asked him why he changed his name - I would like to hear from the man himself before speculating like you do Cal.

And, yep Kstills - born in the USA, means US citizen.

 

[Calabrio]

Unless there exists proof that a: his mother was not a US citizen, or 2) he was not born in Hawaii, nothing else matters.

And his mother's citizenship isn't even all that important, iirc correctly. Born in the US makes you a US citizen, regardless...

You snipped, but ignored the part about DUAL CITIZENSHIP.
And that's not even venturing into the realm of the originalist intent of "natural born citizen."

So, you snipped prematurely.
And in doing so, you're blocking out a legitimate and rational discussion.

 

[Calabrio]

I don't think he was a socialist or revolutionary in college. Just because you write a paper about possibilities available under different governmental systems doesn't mean that you embrace them. You are trying to get a grade, not define your political philosophy for the next 75 years...

You start of saying you don't think he was, but then you go on to make excuses for it immediately after.

So none of you did anything in college that you now feel perhaps wasn't a really great idea, and perhaps, if you were running for the highest office in the land you might not feel comfortable having out there? Heck, I probably did things last weekend that I wouldn't feel comfortable having out there

I wrote an essay on Midget bowling in college to piss off a radical leftists, hypersensitive English teacher once.

But beyond that, if he did infact write the radical papers, what actions can you point to in the past 20 years that demonstrate that he still doesn't embrace those philosophies today?

And just as importantly, the college information and passport information would reveal far more than his bad grades and thesis papers. It would show his national identies, citizenships, birth records, it would show where he traveled, who financed his travel, who financed his education, and a host of other things that would expose this traveler, this radical front man, for what he really is... not the blank slate that the American public projected their hopes and ideals upon during the campaign.

And I say I am Norwegian, if I am here in the states - when I travel abroad, I am an American... And would I have changed my name to reflect my nationality - probably not - it already does. I haven't asked him why he changed his name - I would like to hear from the man himself before speculating like you do Cal.

Unfortunately for you, he's not making that information available.
That's not something he's discussing right now.
Do you disagree with the point I'm making though?

And, yep Kstills - born in the USA, means US citizen.

And what happens if you surrender that citizenship in order to obtain citizenship to another country?

 

[04SCTLS]

You snipped, but ignored the part about DUAL CITIZENSHIP.
And that's not even venturing into the realm of the originalist intent of "natural born citizen."

So, you snipped prematurely.
And in doing so, you're blocking out a legitimate and rational discussion.

This birther thing has been covered and discussed ad nausium.
There's nothing new to add.
Obama has not produced the long form of his birth certificate because he doesn't have to and doesn't want to.
The ad in the hawaii paper announcing his birth could not have been faked.
Whatever is on the long form will remain a mystery to the public at large.

 

[Kstills]

You snipped, but ignored the part about DUAL CITIZENSHIP.
And that's not even venturing into the realm of the originalist intent of "natural born citizen."

So, you snipped prematurely.
And in doing so, you're blocking out a legitimate and rational discussion.

I was not aware that the Constitution placed limits on Dual citizenship.

Being born in Hawaii, he is a US citizen:

Only native-born U.S. citizens (or those born abroad, but only to parents who were both citizens of the U.S.) may be president of the United States, though from time to time that requirement is called into question, most recently after Arnold Schwarzenegger, born in Austria, was elected governor of California, in 2003. The Constitution originally provided a small loophole to this provision: One needn't have been born in the United States but had to be a citizen at the time the Constitution was adopted. But, since that occurred in 1789, that ship has sailed.

If he holds citizenship with another country, that is an area not addressed (and frankly, irrelevent) which would take an amendment to the Constitution (or another activist court) to change.

I 'snipped' to get to the heart of the matter. Is he a citizen or not? Clearly, he is a citizen of the US. Anything else, while perhaps interesting, is irrelevent.

 

[shagdrum]

I was not aware that the Constitution placed limits on Dual citizenship.

Being born in Hawaii, he is a US citizen:

The question is weather or not he is a Natural Born U.S. citizen as is required per the Constitution to hold the office of the presidency. There is some question as to that and the issue is not as cut and dry as most people think.

This has all been covered in another thread. I'll see if I can dig it up...

EDIT: here is that thread. It covers things in quite a bit of detail. There is a legitimate Constitutional question here that the Supreme Court should answer (but won't). It is not as cut and dry as you think it is...

 

[foxpaws]

You start of saying you don't think he was, but then you go on to make excuses for it immediately after.

I was making a 'what if' statement Cal - I don't think he was, and I don't have a clue what his papers were about (maybe non nuclear proliferation - as MM stated above - I don't know). What I did do was state - what if he did write a paper saying that socialism has some good points, it doesn't mean he embraced what he wrote in the paper.

I wrote an essay on Midget bowling in college to piss off a radical leftists, hypersensitive English teacher once.

So, would you lose the all important midget vote because of it.. even though you might not have believed a word you wrote? Would you take that chance of it coming out if you were running for office in Lilliput?

But beyond that, if he did infact write the radical papers, what actions can you point to in the past 20 years that demonstrate that he still doesn't embrace those philosophies today?

And just as importantly, the college information and passport information would reveal far more than his bad grades and thesis papers. It would show his national identies, citizenships, birth records, it would show where he traveled, who financed his travel, who financed his education, and a host of other things that would expose this traveler, this radical front man, for what he really is... not the blank slate that the American public projected their hopes and ideals upon during the campaign.

Yes they would - sorry, can't help you there - blind speculation however.

And traveled, and who financed it? What would that prove? I have a great friend who as a student traveled to the USSR (not Russia - USSR) on a corporation's dime. However, he now sits on a Federal Court bench - what would travel and paid by prove?

The speculation runs rampant I see...

And no one is a blank slate - if you believe that, then you really do deserve the government you elect.

But, guess what, he didn't nationalize the banks, and he had them handed to him on a silver platter. That right there shows he isn't the socialist you think him to be. Socialists hate him for not nationalizing the banks when he had the opportunity.

Unfortunately for you, he's not making that information available.
That's not something he's discussing right now.
Do you disagree with the point I'm making though?

And what happens if you surrender that citizenship in order to obtain citizenship to another country?

You get that opportunity when you are 18, if you hold dual citizenship - and it is fairly well documented. I doubt if those surrender of US citizenship documents wouldn't have been unearthed by this point. It isn't like you can 'make them go away', unless of course you believe in conspiracy theories.

 

[MonsterMark]

Born in the US makes you a US citizen, regardless...

But it doesn't necessarily make you a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

Only one clause in our whole government pertaining to who can and cannot become President and only one clause that raises one's citizenship level from citizen or naturalized citizen to NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

So please stop spreading the propaganda that everything is OK because Obama was born in Hawaii or that his mother was American.

Even his mommy being American doesn't hold water because she was too young BY LAW to transfer citizenship to him.

You need to read up on the law my friend.

But by all means keep living in lala land. You have a usurper in the White House. Sleep well.

 

[MonsterMark]

Time to chuckle...

YouTube- NewsBusted 5/11/10

 

[Calabrio]

I was making a 'what if' statement Cal .....
what if he did write a paper saying that socialism has some good points, it doesn't mean he embraced what he wrote in the paper.

Then we'd have to ask what has he done since then that demonstrates that he still doesn't embrace socialism or marxist theories.

So, would you lose the all important midget vote because of it..

It was a funny essay and it effectively rattled the professor.
I saved it because the "comments" written all over it were the true payoff.

Yes they would - sorry, can't help you there - blind speculation however.

It's not blind speculation, it's just undocumented.
Again, you're essentially defending it. Because he won't release information, everything is dismissed by you as "blind speculation." Isn't that convenient. Yet you don't think it's important that he be open about his past.

And traveled, and who financed it? What would that prove?

It would prove a lot.
How did he travel to Pakistan during the 80s? Why.
How did he enroll at Occidental? Some "speculate" that he did it as a foreign student. How'd he finance his education? Was it all due to his grades? But I thought his grades weren't very good.

I can continue, but the point, the guy is a mystery.
Why? And why is that tolerated? Why did the media look the other way? The same media that rushed falsified documents regarding Bush onto the TV and routinely mocked Bush for his average academics at Yale and Harvard have shown no intellectual or journalistic curiosity regarding this messianic figure.

what would travel and paid by prove?

It would prove that he traveled for corporate business and it was paid for by the company.

And no one is a blank slate - if you believe that, then you really do deserve the government you elect.

That's not what I said. I said he was presented to the public in a way so that the public perceived him as one. Because they didn't understand who he was, and the press showed little interest, they projected their best intentions and desires upon him. It was blind, stupid optimism.

He clearly isn't a "blank slate." Those of us who follow these things knew precisely what he was long before the election. It's horrifying how all of our "worse case scenarios" were too conservative.

But, guess what, he didn't nationalize the banks, and he had them handed to him on a silver platter.

I have no interest in playing these word games. Progressives/statists like you love to manipulate and dance around the shifting meaning of vague, theoretical terms.

Did he "nationalize" the banks in the image of a pure socialist?
No. But does the government now control them. Yes.

Obama is a fascist.
The American political left is fascistic.
Totalitarian.
Internationalist.
And at the foundation of that is Marxism. (we can go back farther philosophically down the collectivist line, but it's not necessary.)

You get that opportunity when you are 18, if you hold dual citizenship - and it is fairly well documented. I doubt if those surrender of US citizenship documents wouldn't have been unearthed by this point. It isn't like you can 'make them go away', unless of course you believe in conspiracy theories.

You doubt.
Any evidence?
If not, that's just blind speculation on your part.
And it's not a crazy conspiracy theory to think that there are powerful people using Obama as their front man.

 

[Kstills]

But it doesn't necessarily make you a NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

It would appear the term has been debated in the courts in many cases:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_born_citizen_of_the_United_States

Only one clause in our whole government pertaining to who can and cannot become President and only one clause that raises one's citizenship level from citizen or naturalized citizen to NATURAL BORN CITIZEN.

Yes.

And?

So please stop spreading the propaganda that everything is OK because Obama was born in Hawaii or that his mother was American.

Ok, you get one of those...

Even his mommy being American doesn't hold water because she was too young BY LAW to transfer citizenship to him.

You need to read up on the law my friend.

I did...

Any child born in the US is considered a US citizen. If your claim is that a minor's child, born in the US, is without citizenship....

But by all means keep living in lala land. You have a usurper in the White House. Sleep well.

Alrighty then...

 

[foxpaws]

Did he "nationalize" the banks in the image of a pure socialist?
No. But does the government now control them. Yes.

Really-they control your little bank down the street - They control my bank - not even close Cal.

The government controls my bank in Norway - there is a world of difference - there is no way we have anything resembling socialist banking in this country.

Obama is a fascist.
The American political left is fascistic.
Totalitarian.
Internationalist.
And at the foundation of that is Marxism. (we can go back farther philosophically down the collectivist line, but it's not necessary.)

He is a fascist or a socialist? Which one - it changes daily... And they don't play well together... Fascist economically while going for an egalitarian society, or the other way around ... socialist economy while going for a class driven society... Or is it scary word of the day? Heck - go for the really big scary word - Nazi... call him a Nazi - why bother with the elementary type scary words when you can graduate to the really big ones...

So shag will now chime in that Fascists (especially nazis) practiced a social economy, see shag, I do remember a little from my Hayek reading...

You doubt.
Any evidence?
If not, that's just blind speculation on your part.
And it's not a crazy conspiracy theory to think that there are powerful people using Obama as their front man.

Maybe lizard people...

 

[MonsterMark]

Any child born in the US is considered a US citizen. If your claim is that a minor's child, born in the US, is without citizenship....

No wonder you're confused.

See... it takes a sperm from the male and an egg from the female to produce an offspring.

Since President Obama (termed used loosely) was made from a sperm and egg that means he had a mom and dad. Since mom wasn't old enough to convey citizenship, I would argue that he is at best a dual citizen. Being born here but having a duality at birth due to the citizenship of his father. Mom doesn't matter in this equation. And President Obama's dad was NEVER a US citizen. Therefore, it is NOT possible for Obama to rise to the level of Natural Born Citizen, which is the only exclusive clause added to the qualifications for President ONLY. Not Senator, Congressman or garbage collector. United States President. The United States wants its presidents to be virgins, so to speak. Born on US soil to 2 United States citizens.

Maybe this will help you out.
If you care to take the time to read it...that is.:shifty:
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/

 

[04SCTLS]

No wonder you're confused.

See... it takes a sperm from the male and an egg from the female to produce an offspring.

Since President Obama (termed used loosely) was made from a sperm and egg that means he had a mom and dad. Since mom wasn't old enough to convey citizenship, I would argue that he is at best a dual citizen. Being born here but having a duality at birth due to the citizenship of his father. Mom doesn't matter in this equation. And President Obama's dad was NEVER a US citizen. Therefore, it is NOT possible for Obama to rise to the level of Natural Born Citizen, which is the only exclusive clause added to the qualifications for President ONLY. Not Senator, Congressman or garbage collector. United States President. The United States wants its presidents to be virgins, so to speak. Born on US soil to 2 United States citizens.

Maybe this will help you out.
If you care to take the time to read it...that is.:shifty:
http://naturalborncitizen.wordpress.com/

This is only the bloggers carefully crafted opinion.

The constitution does not clearly spell out that both parents have to be born in the US citizens for someone to be a naturally born citizen or that 2 parents are even required to be entered into the consideration.

Dual citizenship is not mentioned either so that point is moot.

Your specious arguments have not gotten you or the other birthers anywhere and all you do is stew and expend energy and time on this that could be put to better use.

 

[Kstills]

No wonder you're confused.

See... it takes a sperm from the male and an egg from the female to produce an offspring.

Since President Obama (termed used loosely) was made from a sperm and egg that means he had a mom and dad. Since mom wasn't old enough to convey citizenship, I would argue that he is at best a dual citizen.

And argue you do!!

However, anyone born in the US, regardless of what citizenship their parents hold, is considered a US citizen. There 'may' be some exclusions (diplomats, pols, etc) but the fact of the matter is that Mom having the child here gives citizenship rights to child.

Citizenship in the United States is a matter of federal law, governed by the United States constitution.

Since the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment to the constitution on July 9, 1868, birthright citizenship in the United States has been controlled by its Citizenship Clause, which states:

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.[3]"

So Hawaii, having issued and attested to a valid BC for one Barry Obama, means he's a citizen of the US.

 

[foxpaws]

Your specious arguments have not gotten you or the other birthers anywhere and all you do is stew and expend energy and time on this that could be put to better use.

Ah, let them have their fun... at least we know what they are doing at night...

 

[04SCTLS]

I think the only time 2 parents who are american citizens is required anywhere is for someone to be considered an american citizen if born outside of US soil.

 

[MonsterMark]

And argue you do!!

You're killing me here.

However, anyone born in the US, regardless of what citizenship their parents hold, is considered a US citizen.

We are discussing whether Obama is a Natural Born Citizen aren't we, as it pertains to the qualifications for U.S. President right? Or have we moved the goalposts?argue2

There 'may' be some exclusions (diplomats, pols, etc) but the fact of the matter is that Mom having the child here gives citizenship rights to child.

Again, his father was a foreigner, so at best he is a dual-citizen and dual citizens cannot be President

So Hawaii, having issued and attested to a valid BC for one Barry Obama, means he's a citizen of the US.

They have done no such thing. They have never attested to a valid Birth Certificate. Try again.

And again, being just a 'citizen' does NOT meet the threshold.:Bang

 

[MonsterMark]

Your specious arguments have not gotten you or the other birthers anywhere and all you do is stew and expend energy and time on this that could be put to better use.

I'm committed to the cause. Protecting our Constitution is job Numero Uno.

 

[foxpaws]

I'm committed to the cause. Protecting our Constitution is job Numero Uno.

Oh yeah, and you were all over it when Bush was shredding it and using it for cat litter...

 

[04SCTLS]

I'm committed to the cause. Protecting our Constitution is job Numero Uno.

The constitution does not specifically define what a natural born citizen is or isn't in regards to elegibility for president.
In law if something is not specifically prohibited it is allowed.
There is also the tradition of benefit of the doubt.
Now that the Tea Party seems to be getting some traction your energy's and efforts may be of better use there than further pursuing the natural born citizen thing.
Maybe in the future a law can be passed that requires candidates for president to show the long form of their birth certificate but until then it's kinda moot.

 

[Kstills]

You're killing me here.

We are discussing whether Obama is a Natural Born Citizen aren't we, as it pertains to the qualifications for U.S. President right? Or have we moved the goalposts?argue2

Haven't changed the subject at all...

Again, his father was a foreigner, so at best he is a dual-citizen and dual citizens cannot be President

That does not matter, as of current interpretation.

They have done no such thing. They have never attested to a valid Birth Certificate. Try again.

Hawaii provided a condensed version of the BC. His birth was recorded in the local paper. He was, in fact, born in Hawaii. He will not allow a release of the original, full version of his BC. That is unusual, and implies that there is information he wishes to keep from the public, but it does not change the fact that he was born in Hawaii.

Hawaii being a state in the union at the time makes BO a US Citizen.

And again, being just a 'citizen' does NOT meet the threshold.:Bang

Which is why I posted the wiki link.

Many courts have either ruled on, or commented on what a citizen is. They have parsed 'natural born' throughout the country's history. To my reading, the SC has never presided over a case and ruled on that exact terminology. The fact that they would pass on ruling on it now indicates that they don't consider the prior record in need of redress.

I could be wrong, but like someone said earlier, there are many more things to worry about, especially with BO then whether or not he's a US citizen.

 

[Calabrio]

Oh yeah, and you were all over it when Bush was shredding it and using it for cat litter...

If you really think Bush was shredding the constitution, does the fact that someone was unaware of it in the past mean they should never open their eyes and address it in the present or future?

Or are you making a "since he did it, Obama should be able to do it too... even more so."

Either way, both examples indicate you're aware of constitutional violations yet you still support it.

The fact is, you have little regard for the original intend of the framers or the constitution for that matter. You've demonstrated that you're a statist and an authoritarian repeatedly on this board.

Dare I say- a socialist fascist...
In fact, the only identification you've been willing to use was a 20th century Progressive- without the racism.

You've even argued that we get our rights from the state.
And freedom should be defined as a lack of want or need.

Really-they control your little bank down the street - They control my bank - not even close Cal.

I had a Bank of America account.
I don't have a little bank down the street, though there's been something like 60 banks that have been closed in this state.
But yeah, the government has expanded it's control in banking.

He is a fascist or a socialist? Which one - it changes daily... And they don't play well together...

That's a leftist lie and you know it.
Fascism and socialism and marxism and statism all work quite well with each other, if you can even define or distinguish them.

Mousollini was a socialist.
Hitler was a socialist.

If only your history were as strong as your propaganda and rhetoric, these conversations might be interesting.

So shag will now chime in that Fascists (especially nazis) practiced a social economy, see shag, I do remember a little from my Hayek

First brown then red.

Maybe lizard people...

Is this the new talking point?
Critics of the regime and government are all "conspiracy theorists" now. The other charges and attacks didn't work, so you'll try that line of ridicule. The problem is that too many people are starting to figure out what's going on, and with that awakening, the attacks your travelers make fail to intimidate.

When that fails to work, what then?
Let's ask the Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs

Top Obama czar: Infiltrate all 'conspiracy theorists'

Since it's a World Net Daily link, so I provided the actual source with it.

 

[foxpaws]

If you really think Bush was shredding the constitution, does the fact that someone was unaware of it in the past mean they should never open their eyes and address it in the present or future?

Or are you making a "since he did it, Obama should be able to do it too... even more so."

Either way, both examples indicate you're aware of constitutional violations yet you still support it.

Nope a case of if you are doing it now, why didn’t you did it when…

And you had to be asleep if you didn’t notice the gagging sounds the constitution was making when Bush was choking it.

I hate to use this as a scale – but, shredding the 4th compared to a question of what does natural born citizen really mean… come on.

I had a Bank of America account.
I don't have a little bank down the street, though there's been something like 60 banks that have been closed in this state.
But yeah, the government has expanded it's control in banking.

Closed because of the government – or because they were mismanaged?

There is no way Cal we have a nationalist banking system, we aren’t even on the threshold.

The fact is, you have little regard for the original intend of the framers or the constitution for that matter. You've demonstrated that you're a statist and an authoritarian repeatedly on this board.

Dare I say- a socialist fascist...

In fact, the only identification you've been willing to use was a 20th century Progressive- without the racism.

Ah, an excellent choice - how about putting racist in front of that - elitist racist socialist fascist, has sort of a ring to it - doesn't it?

A little hint - stick to one thing - it works ever so much better. Labeling, conspiracy theories... don't spread yourself too thin, go for one thing - create a conditioned response through repetition...

Sieg Heil... See how it works...

That's a leftist lie and you know it.
Fascism and socialism and marxism and statism all work quite well with each other, if you can even define or distinguish them.

Mousollini was a socialist.
Hitler was a socialist.

If only your history were as strong as your propaganda and rhetoric, these conversations might be interesting.

Fascism is based on corporatism. The ideal of Marxist worker based socialism is sort of on the opposite scale of business/government collusion based corporatism which Mussolini relied on. I don’t see a lot of Marxist based socialism in the history books when I look at Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy… Not a lot of worker revolt… Not a lot of socialistic thought… Not a lot of union involvement. I could go with worker/government economic system as socialist - pretty easily. But that wasn't at all what was happening in Italy and Germany.

“Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power”

By the man who should know… Benito Mussolini.

Maybe you should be the one Cal to sort of bone up on your history… collective ownership – grasp the concept? And you know Nationalism, a really strong component of fascists - sort of a no-no in socialist societies...

Is this the new talking point?
Critics of the regime and government are all "conspiracy theorists" now. The other charges and attacks didn't work, so you'll try that line of ridicule. The problem is that too many people are starting to figure out what's going on, and with that awakening, the attacks your travelers make fail to intimidate.

Not critics - but people who think there are puppet masters behind the president (or whatever the current conspiracy theory is)... I didn't believe it when they tried to tell me that with GWB - and I certainly am not going to believe it with Obama. On one hand you blither on about how he is this great progressive (socialist/fascist/Marxist/post modern impressionist), smart, articulate, with the ability to destroy the entire country with a single glance of his x-ray vision, and now he is nothing but a front man?

What will tomorrow bring - Obama has unleashed microbes into our drinking water to create a country of goose stepping drones?

Continue on - marginalize yourself all you want.