Well, someone sent me this little list...
Your propaganda is getting weak, you had to get outside help.
There is a reason they have different words for this stuff Cal...
There are differences in all of these things, many are subtle, many reflect the nations and cultures in which the governments are applied. But the core values have common foundations.
Earmarks of Fascism, none of these are in socialism...
Again, you're making the critical mistake of implying that there is a uniform definition of what "fascism" is. If you get a dozen books, you'll find a dozen different definitions.
Some will say Mussolini wasn't even a real fascist.
Some will say Hitler was, or wasn't. And other will also include Lenin and Mao.
The point is, they all have their roots in Marx.
They all embrace socialist policies.
And they all are totalitarian.
Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
I would argue that the biggest difference between fascist, as it is commonly understood and communism is the nationalist versus internationalist identity. I said so much in a prior post.
Communist identifying with CLASS internationally. Nationalists identifying with identity and trying to eliminate class distinctions within the borders..
Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because Stalin respected human rights?
Because Mao respected human rights?
Because Hitler respected human rights?
No, what you have in fascism, as you have with Marxism/Socialism/Communism as it is applied in the real world, is the sacrifice of the individual for the collective.
Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
Again, differentiate that from Hitler identifying the Jews as the scapegoat or unifying cause. Or the restoration of the German empire.
Or the millions murder by Stalin after being blamed for his murderous economic policies?
Or what about in this country where we are blaiming Tea Parties and Bankers?
Supremacy of the Military
Again, sounds like the communists to me.
Also sounds like Wilson (WWI) FDR (WW2) and even Kennedy (Vietnam escalation and the, arguably, the moon launch.)
"Rampant sexism" isn't defining element of any fascism.
In fact, that's a stupid statement. Is the implication that a woman is incapable of leading or being involved in a fascistic government?
There was a fascist movement in Britain that had very vocal and high profile woman associated and leading it.
So this point is just ignorant.
And Hitler, Stalin, Wilson, and FDR all did this.
You're providing me a lot of examples that are really totalitarian, but they don't exclude Marixism based philosophies.
Obsession with National Security
what country isn't.
Unless you mean to say that the Soviet Union was no interested in "national security."
Religion and Government are Intertwined
Replace the capital "G" of government for the lower case "g" of government.
Again, consistent with all of the Marx based theories.
Corporate Power is Protected
No, this isn't true.
If a corporate structure is left in place, it's controlled by the state.
But, for expediency, I'm just going to quote
wikipedia:
Mussolini pushed for government control of business: by 1935, Mussolini claimed that three quarters of Italian businesses were under state control. That same year, he issued several edicts to further control the economy, including forcing all banks, businesses, and private citizens to give up all their foreign-issued stocks and bonds to the Bank of Italy. In 1938, he also instituted wage and price controls. He also attempted to turn Italy into a self-sufficient autarky, instituting high barriers on trade with most countries except Germany.
In 1943 he proposed the theory of economic socialization.
Labor Power is Suppressed
Not true- as I've repeatedly explained.
Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Not true.
Fascist art was abundant.
Futurism and technology were embraced by Mussolini.
Mussolini used the image of the air plane prominently to enhance his image.
Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Allegiance and obedience to the state.
But that's consistent with communism and any kind of totalitarianism.
Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Again, power corrupts.
Not a unique feature to fascism.
And also associated with the other marxist derived philosophies like socialism and communism when applied.
Fraudulent Elections, or no elections.
You mean like in Venezuela?
Is Chavez a fascist or does he embraces Marxist ideals?
So, to conclude this-
You've failed to distinguish ANYTHING, with the possible exception of the nationalist/internationalist angle, that distinguishes or makes fascism and the Marxist philosophies incompatible. In fact, you've DEMONSTRATED how fascism is USED by the left to establish and enforce such philosophies.
Now if you want to talk Nazism... which is far right...
Nazism is short for NATIONAL
SOCIALISM.
So there is NO relation to the American right in the classically liberal tradition. If you attempt to argue otherwise, you are engaged in a lie.
As far removed from egalitarianism as you can get... Far removed from a welfare state. The poor, the infirm, the sick, the helpless, Nazis either drafted them, sterilized them, or gassed them.
And so did the 20th century progressives in the United States. People you have expressed your respect and favor for in the past. So did people like Woodrow Wilson and Walter Lipman.
And so did the Soviets.
So eugenics is not a American "right" principle, that one is firmly with your travelers on the left.
Hitler was hugely influenced by a lecture by Feder called "How and by What Means Is capitalism to be Eliminated."
The fact is that the Nazi's fought with the COMMUNISTS for the territory on the LEFT of the spectrum. It relied on left wing and communist imagery and and rhetoric in it's effort to appeal to communist. Even the red background on the nazi flag was designed to appeal to communist.
As mentioned repeatedly, the Nazis were very similar to the communists, except they focused on nationalism and not class. They identified themselves by their nationality first, and then sought to eliminate the classes, where the internationlist leanings of the communists sought to link all people of a similar class together, dissolving borders- "workers of the world unite."
All unions outlawed - the labor class became a second class -
Unions were replaced by government controlled trade unions-
And the class distinctions you speak of are the result of political corruption, not design.
Just like the the Soviet countries, where everyone is equal, just some more than others.
Again, none of this is resembles "classical liberalism."
Speaking of class... Huge class system - going as far as to create an uber race... Ayran.
And that's "right" wing.
Hitler echoing Jefferson?
As far as economics - it was only a means to and end, that end being the cultural, military and political dominance of the Nazi party, the German people and the Aryan race - all of which are rather rightist ideas.
You keep saying it's rightist, but then you never explain how it resembles anything associated with the American right, or classical liberalism.
Is this just a talking point or have you been brainwashed?
Fascism - Mussolini - has been far left forever, same as Stalin - Hitler on the other hand - was insane - but his Nazi policies put him far, far, right.
First, let me state agreement-
Mussolini was far left, and, despite your claims, his fascism is absolutely consistent and applicable with marxist theory, including socialism.
And I agree that there is a difference regarding the fascist tendency towards nationalism.
But Hitler and his NATIONAL SOCIALIST party were also staking out territory on what WE would consider the far, far left of the political spectrum. And to perpetuate that lie advanced by the radical left and communists to distinguish themselves from the evil that we identify with Hitlerism is a lie.
But to conclude this point, why don't we just look at the platform of Hitler's National Socialist (NAZI) party. And then after reading that, other than some of the nationalism, let me know if you think it resembles the American "right".
The Program of the National-Socialist (Nazi)
German Workers’ Party
(1933)
The Program of the German Workers’ Party is a program for our time. The leadership rejects the establishment of new aims after those set out in the Program have been achieved, for the sole purpose of making it possible for the Party to continue to exist as the result of the artificially stimulated dissatisfaction of the masses.
1. We demand the uniting of all Germans within one Greater Germany, on the basis of the right to self-determination of nations.
2. We demand equal rights for the German people (Volk) with respect to other nations, and the annulment of the peace treaty of Versailles and St. Germain.
3. We demand land and soil (Colonies) to feed our People and settle our excess population.
4. Only Nationals (Volksgenossen) can be Citizens of the State. Only persons of German blood can be Nationals, regardless of religious affiliation. No Jew can therefore be a German National.
5. Any person who is not a Citizen will be able to live in Germany only as a guest and must be subject to legislation for Aliens.
6. Only a Citizen is entitled to decide the leadership and laws of the State. We therefore demand that only Citizens may hold public office, regardless of whether it is a national, state or local office.
We oppose the corrupting parliamentary custom of making party considerations, and not character and ability, the criterion for appointments to official positions.
7. We demand that the State make it its duty to provide opportunities of employment first of all for its own Citizens. If it is not possible to maintain the entire population of the State, then foreign nationals (non-Citizens) are to be expelled from the Reich.
8. Any further immigration of non-Germans is to be prevented. We demand that all non-Germans who entered Germany after August 2, 1914, be forced to leave the Reich without delay.
9. All German Citizens must have equal rights and duties.
10. It must be the first duty of every Citizen to carry out intellectual or physical work. Individual activity must not be harmful to the public interest and must be pursued within the framework of the community and for the general good.
We therefore demand:
11. The abolition of all income obtained without labor or effort.
Breaking the Servitude of Interest.
12. In view of the tremendous sacrifices in property and blood demanded of the nation by every war, personal gain from the war must be termed a crime against the nation. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all enterprises (already) converted into corporations (trusts).
14. We demand profit-sharing in large enterprises.
15. We demand the large-scale development of old-age pension schemes.
16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle class; the immediate communalization of the large department stores, which are to be leased at low rates to small tradesmen. We demand the most careful consideration for the owners of small businesses in orders placed by national, state, or community authorities.
17. We demand land reform in accordance with our national needs and a law for expropriation without compensation of land for public purposes. Abolition of ground rent and prevention of all speculation in land.
18. We demand ruthless battle against those who harm the common good by their activities. Persons committing base crimes against the People, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished by death without regard to religion or race.
19. We demand the replacement of Roman Law, which serves a materialistic World Order, by German Law.
20. In order to make higher education – and thereby entry into leading positions – available to every able and industrious German, the State must provide a thorough restructuring of our entire public educational system. The courses of study at all educational institutions are to be adjusted to meet the requirements of practical life. Understanding of the concept of the State must be achieved through the schools (teaching of civics) at the earliest age at which it can be grasped. We demand the education at the public expense of specially gifted children of poor parents, without regard to the latters’ position or occupation.
21. The State must raise the level of national health by means of mother-and-child care, the banning of juvenile labor, achievements of physical fitness through legislation for compulsory gymnastics and sports, and maximum support for all organizations providing physical training for young people.
22. We demand the abolition of hireling troops and the creation of a national army.
23. We demand laws to fight against deliberate political lies and their dissemination by the press. In order to make it possible to create a German press, we demand:
a) all editors and editorial employees of newspapers appearing in the German language must be German by race;
b) non-German newspapers require express permission from the State for their publication. They may not be printed in the German language;
c) any financial participation in a German newspaper or influence on such a paper is to be forbidden by law to non-Germans and the penalty for any breach of this law will be the closing of the newspaper in question, as well as the immediate expulsion from the Reich of the non-Germans involved.
Newspapers which violate the public interest are to be banned. We demand laws against trends in art and literature which have a destructive effect on our national life, and the suppression of performances that offend against the above requirements.
24. We demand freedom for all religious denominations, provided that they do not endanger the existence of the State or offend the concepts of decency and morality of the Germanic race.
The Party as such stands for positive Christianity, without associating itself with any particular denomination. It fights against the Jewish-materialistic spirit within and around us, and is convinced that a permanent revival of our nation can be achieved only from within, on the basis of:
Public Interest before Private Interest.
25. To carry out all the above we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the Reich. Unquestioned authority by the political central Parliament over the entire Reich and over its organizations in general. The establishment of trade and professional organizations to enforce the Reich basic laws in the individual states.
The Party leadership promises to take an uncompromising stand, at the cost of their own lives if need be, on the enforcement of the above points.
Munich, February 24, 1920.
Das Programm der NSDAP
("The Program of the National-Socialist German Workers’ Party"), Berlin [1933].
All of these "isms" reflect the countries and cultures in which they are applied. Marxism in Germany looked like National Socialism, Nazism. It became Fascism when adopted by the Italians. And when it was shaped by the American conscious, it manifest itself here as Progressivism. But the foundations are all very similar.
And none of the them resemble the American right today.
