joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
You're still good (tensioner wise).
Engine rattles on startup
- Thread starter Telco
- Start date
You're still good (tensioner wise).
biggsdabarber
LVC Member
Yes I am if that's the problem. I have to see how much work is involved and price of parts. If I am not mistaken their are 4 tensioners
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Pull the valve covers first and see what the problem actually is first. It could be the tensioners, but with your gen II engine, I think that the odds are it is something more serious.
As in Bruno's post above. His cam was moving longitudinally. The pictures in his post will show the damage and what to look for.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Thoughts
Joe and others,
I too have scratched my head over this for a long time... going from piston/wrist pin slap, to other things you mentioned,,, including the torque converter. I see the issue as a 2 part problem depending on the noise people are experiencing. The initial "startup" rattle still seems like an oil drainback issue to me. I know you did some checking on the filter housing and could not verify. Is it possible there is an anti-drainback/pressure relief valve in the oil pump??? If the spring gets weak, or the valve doesn't seat properly,,, this could cause the startup rattle. Somwhere on the LVC forum within the last couple years,,, I have run across a couple threads where people mentioned the oil pump on the 3.9 being a potential weak spot with the engine.
Now onto the bigger problem... I think you and others hit the nail on the head with logitudinal camshaft movement. This is obviously what Bruno experienced. Again... a couple years back I found a thread on LVC where a guy was experiencing a rattle in his 3.9. He pulled the valve covers,,, loosened his cam bearing caps,,, and shifted them to prevent the longitudinal movement. During the process... he took a few pics. One of the pics showed what appeard to be a thick thrust washer under the rear bearing cap at the rear of the cams. His was split in 2. Not sure if it was designed that way, (doubt it), and it was hard to tell from the pic if it was cracked.
To me... the problem is excessive cam thrust washer wear,,, and possible top end oil starvation, (cam journal and bearing scoring would support this idea),,, caused by a weak oil pump, (and/or bad relief spring). My engine rattles on startup after sitting for more than 24 hours in moderate to warm temps,,, and after 8 hours in cold weather. If I let it sit and let it fully warm up at idle,,, it gradually gets a noise that sounds like a rod knock/wrist pin problem,,, then goes away. However,,, the noise appears to be more at the top of the motor. When putting throug a parking lot with a cold engine,,, on decel... the noise definitely sounds like cam rattle.
It's been doing this for at least 40k miles. Currently using Mobile 1 0-w40, and it seems to help. With thinner oil,,, the engine just seemed to make alot of general mechanical noise... sounding like chains and tensioners,,, plus lifter clatter. When, (and if), I get the time... I plan on changing out the oil pump, and replacing the cam thrust washers, (if available separately). I really think the base problem is the oil pump,,, which is causing other problems.
Also wondering about possible VCT solenoid problems, (without throwing codes), or cam phaser issues.
Just my thoughts,,, for what they are worth.
- - - Mike - - -
Joe and others,
I too have scratched my head over this for a long time... going from piston/wrist pin slap, to other things you mentioned,,, including the torque converter. I see the issue as a 2 part problem depending on the noise people are experiencing. The initial "startup" rattle still seems like an oil drainback issue to me. I know you did some checking on the filter housing and could not verify. Is it possible there is an anti-drainback/pressure relief valve in the oil pump??? If the spring gets weak, or the valve doesn't seat properly,,, this could cause the startup rattle. Somwhere on the LVC forum within the last couple years,,, I have run across a couple threads where people mentioned the oil pump on the 3.9 being a potential weak spot with the engine.
Now onto the bigger problem... I think you and others hit the nail on the head with logitudinal camshaft movement. This is obviously what Bruno experienced. Again... a couple years back I found a thread on LVC where a guy was experiencing a rattle in his 3.9. He pulled the valve covers,,, loosened his cam bearing caps,,, and shifted them to prevent the longitudinal movement. During the process... he took a few pics. One of the pics showed what appeard to be a thick thrust washer under the rear bearing cap at the rear of the cams. His was split in 2. Not sure if it was designed that way, (doubt it), and it was hard to tell from the pic if it was cracked.
To me... the problem is excessive cam thrust washer wear,,, and possible top end oil starvation, (cam journal and bearing scoring would support this idea),,, caused by a weak oil pump, (and/or bad relief spring). My engine rattles on startup after sitting for more than 24 hours in moderate to warm temps,,, and after 8 hours in cold weather. If I let it sit and let it fully warm up at idle,,, it gradually gets a noise that sounds like a rod knock/wrist pin problem,,, then goes away. However,,, the noise appears to be more at the top of the motor. When putting throug a parking lot with a cold engine,,, on decel... the noise definitely sounds like cam rattle.
It's been doing this for at least 40k miles. Currently using Mobile 1 0-w40, and it seems to help. With thinner oil,,, the engine just seemed to make alot of general mechanical noise... sounding like chains and tensioners,,, plus lifter clatter. When, (and if), I get the time... I plan on changing out the oil pump, and replacing the cam thrust washers, (if available separately). I really think the base problem is the oil pump,,, which is causing other problems.
Also wondering about possible VCT solenoid problems, (without throwing codes), or cam phaser issues.
Just my thoughts,,, for what they are worth.
- - - Mike - - -
mpd4200
LVC Member
My engine will rattle on start up in the warm weather after sitting for 12+ hours. It will not rattle at all in the cold weather.
I haven't spent alot of time under my LS. Can the oil pump be replaced with the engine in the car?
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Yes, but I see no reason to suspect it as the problem. The oil pump is very hard to impossible to get as a new part for some years.
But, but, but...
Don't the symptoms align with a leaking oil pump pressure relief valve? If I shut my 03 off and start it back up, no rattle. If I let it sit, now for even a short time, get a rattle on startup. If I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the motor for 5 seconds, even if it's sat for days, no rattle when I replace the fuse and start it up.
Don't the symptoms align with a leaking oil pump pressure relief valve? If I shut my 03 off and start it back up, no rattle. If I let it sit, now for even a short time, get a rattle on startup. If I pull the fuel pump fuse and crank the motor for 5 seconds, even if it's sat for days, no rattle when I replace the fuse and start it up.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
The anti-drain back (check valve) is inside the oil filter. The oil filter is after the oil pump. You could remove the oil pump and it wouldn't change whether or not the oil remained in the passages in the top of the engine.
KAIN81
Active LVC Member
It's been a long time since I've checked in on this thread - and still no one has been able to solve it. How crazy.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
It depends on what you mean by "solve." Causes for this symptom have been identified. In a few cases, it has been camshaft/camshaft bearing problems. I think that in the one case of that in this thread, the car was scrapped instead of fixing it.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
RCode,
I couldn't find the link. I spent several hours Google searching LVC. After reading over 100 threads and close to 1000 posts,,, I found nothing related to what I referred to in post #280. Could have been sombody doing a VC replacement,,, don't remeber at this point. When I found the thread,,, I may have been still lurking on this site... or just joined.
Also... I have to retract what I previusly said about a thrust washer. After studying the head and camshaft design of the V8... what I was remembering as a thrust washer... was the notch/groove on the back of the camshaft. Sorry to all for the misimformation. However... I am still sure about the poster stating they shifted the cam bearing caps. After studying the head/camshaft design,,, I'm not sure how that would have done anything though.
Looking at the V8 design... it appears that the only thing keeping the cams running true,,, is chain tension. After listening to my LS more intently,,, I'm starting to wonder about primary chain tensioner issues. Any slack in the chains would allow longitudinal movement of the cams. This is still partially theory without having a partially disassembled engine to look at.
As far as the oil pump being suspect... buy an oil pressure test gauge kit and tap in by the filter. Use the factory manual for proper pressuers and testing. Not sure if if the problem might be leaky/worn primary tensioners causing low oil pressure,,, or if a weak oil pump would causing loose primary tensioners. Maybe both.
From what I have read about the primary tensioners,,, they have a port that sprays oil onto the chain. Don't know if they have a check valve in them that is supposed to hold pressure when then engine is not running. I have a hard time believing that this is all related to an oil filter drainback issue. People are using filters from Fram, Purolator, Motocraft, Wix,,, and others,,, with the same results.
I have yet to get back over to the Jaguar forums and see if they are having issues with primary tensioners and/or oil pumps. One thing I do remember them saying... is that even the latest version of secondary tensioners for the AJ are still problematic,,, and a potentially premature wear item.
I always figured,,, that when I have the time, (if the engine doesn't fail first),,, I would do the VCGs, oil pump, all 4 chains, and all 4 tensioners at the same time. Roughly a grand in parts plus many hours of labor. Unfortunately... my backup vehicle needs a new backup vehicle,,, and I am swamped with too many other things in life. So the LS will have to wait while I drive it daily. I have an oil pressure gauge kit,,, but haven't even had time to test the oil pressure yet.
I couldn't find the link. I spent several hours Google searching LVC. After reading over 100 threads and close to 1000 posts,,, I found nothing related to what I referred to in post #280. Could have been sombody doing a VC replacement,,, don't remeber at this point. When I found the thread,,, I may have been still lurking on this site... or just joined.
Also... I have to retract what I previusly said about a thrust washer. After studying the head and camshaft design of the V8... what I was remembering as a thrust washer... was the notch/groove on the back of the camshaft. Sorry to all for the misimformation. However... I am still sure about the poster stating they shifted the cam bearing caps. After studying the head/camshaft design,,, I'm not sure how that would have done anything though.
Looking at the V8 design... it appears that the only thing keeping the cams running true,,, is chain tension. After listening to my LS more intently,,, I'm starting to wonder about primary chain tensioner issues. Any slack in the chains would allow longitudinal movement of the cams. This is still partially theory without having a partially disassembled engine to look at.
As far as the oil pump being suspect... buy an oil pressure test gauge kit and tap in by the filter. Use the factory manual for proper pressuers and testing. Not sure if if the problem might be leaky/worn primary tensioners causing low oil pressure,,, or if a weak oil pump would causing loose primary tensioners. Maybe both.
From what I have read about the primary tensioners,,, they have a port that sprays oil onto the chain. Don't know if they have a check valve in them that is supposed to hold pressure when then engine is not running. I have a hard time believing that this is all related to an oil filter drainback issue. People are using filters from Fram, Purolator, Motocraft, Wix,,, and others,,, with the same results.
I have yet to get back over to the Jaguar forums and see if they are having issues with primary tensioners and/or oil pumps. One thing I do remember them saying... is that even the latest version of secondary tensioners for the AJ are still problematic,,, and a potentially premature wear item.
I always figured,,, that when I have the time, (if the engine doesn't fail first),,, I would do the VCGs, oil pump, all 4 chains, and all 4 tensioners at the same time. Roughly a grand in parts plus many hours of labor. Unfortunately... my backup vehicle needs a new backup vehicle,,, and I am swamped with too many other things in life. So the LS will have to wait while I drive it daily. I have an oil pressure gauge kit,,, but haven't even had time to test the oil pressure yet.
Telco
Dedicated LVC Member
May be something there on chain tension. Mine rattles a bit first thing in the morning, UNLESS I pop the starter without starting it first. Give the starter a bump and then start it, and it starts as smoothly and quietly as a new car.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Telco,
Have you ever tried letting the car warm up to full temp at idle??? About half way through warm up... mine develops what sounds like a rod knock, but then goes away after a few minutes. This is most likely piston slap as Joe suggested. While not everybodys issue in this thread,,, it is for some.
IIRC, (without re-reading all 300 posts), most of the people in this thread with real engine issues, have Gen II engines. This is why I suggested the possibility of the VVT solenoids, (without throwing a code), or the cam phasers. I've spent a few hours on the net and may have found some helpful links... starting with this one:
https://books.google.com/books?id=n...on slap go away as an engine warms up&f=false
I was researching piston slap... but the page that opens, also lists symptoms for timing chain noise, (which on VVT engines the cam phaser could also be suspect).
Next:
http://www.justanswer.com/ford-lincoln/651f1-son-04-lincoln-ls-v8-85k-miles-on.html
Notice on this link... the poster says the engine went to idle,,, but still ran with no mention of it missing/loping, (as would happen if a tensioner or chain had let loose and a cam jumped time).
Next:
http://jcna.com/forums/view.php?Vref=sw39&Vfnum=160&Vthread=1096
This one points to chains...(and/or tensioners), but is non VVT engine. As I said before,,, a few jag forums are still complaining about the latest tensioners on the AJ engine,,, and that includes LS Gen II engines.
Next:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/modern/buyguide.htm
Scroll down to the 1998+ model years,,, and it mentions chain tensioners... but again,,, no VVT
Last:
http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xj-x350-x358-xj6-xj8-xjr-28/help-vvt-chain-tensioners-71904/
I think this one may have nailed the problem. The whole thread is pretty good... but read post #2, #4 ,,, and #17-#20.
So I guess oil drainback is/was the issue after all. Just not from the filter or pump. The last link also fits with the techs diagnosis in the "just answer" link above,,, but it appears that poster suffered total failure of the cam phaser.
Again... different people on this thread have had different issues... but I think the engine related ones come down to chains, tensioners,,, and for the worst... VVT cam phasers. Not sure about Bruno's issue. I would have to go back and look at the pic.
Hope this helps,
- - - Mike - - -
Have you ever tried letting the car warm up to full temp at idle??? About half way through warm up... mine develops what sounds like a rod knock, but then goes away after a few minutes. This is most likely piston slap as Joe suggested. While not everybodys issue in this thread,,, it is for some.
IIRC, (without re-reading all 300 posts), most of the people in this thread with real engine issues, have Gen II engines. This is why I suggested the possibility of the VVT solenoids, (without throwing a code), or the cam phasers. I've spent a few hours on the net and may have found some helpful links... starting with this one:
https://books.google.com/books?id=n...on slap go away as an engine warms up&f=false
I was researching piston slap... but the page that opens, also lists symptoms for timing chain noise, (which on VVT engines the cam phaser could also be suspect).
Next:
http://www.justanswer.com/ford-lincoln/651f1-son-04-lincoln-ls-v8-85k-miles-on.html
Notice on this link... the poster says the engine went to idle,,, but still ran with no mention of it missing/loping, (as would happen if a tensioner or chain had let loose and a cam jumped time).
Next:
http://jcna.com/forums/view.php?Vref=sw39&Vfnum=160&Vthread=1096
This one points to chains...(and/or tensioners), but is non VVT engine. As I said before,,, a few jag forums are still complaining about the latest tensioners on the AJ engine,,, and that includes LS Gen II engines.
Next:
http://www.jag-lovers.org/modern/buyguide.htm
Scroll down to the 1998+ model years,,, and it mentions chain tensioners... but again,,, no VVT
Last:
http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/xj-x350-x358-xj6-xj8-xjr-28/help-vvt-chain-tensioners-71904/
I think this one may have nailed the problem. The whole thread is pretty good... but read post #2, #4 ,,, and #17-#20.
So I guess oil drainback is/was the issue after all. Just not from the filter or pump. The last link also fits with the techs diagnosis in the "just answer" link above,,, but it appears that poster suffered total failure of the cam phaser.
Again... different people on this thread have had different issues... but I think the engine related ones come down to chains, tensioners,,, and for the worst... VVT cam phasers. Not sure about Bruno's issue. I would have to go back and look at the pic.
Hope this helps,
- - - Mike - - -
Telco
Dedicated LVC Member
No, except when working on the cooling system. My problem is when it's cold, first start of the day I get a sound like a handful of BBs in a coffee can for about 2 seconds. After that, it's gone for the day unless the engine goes dead cold. After the startup it's smooth. Subsequent starts, no problem. Bump the starter then start, no problems.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Post #1... Telco syas this:
...When I start the car, it sounds like BBs in a coffee can for a few seconds, which then goes away. It's not a steady sound as you'd expect with a collapsed lifter, more of an irregular clatter....
Post #5... RCodePaul says this:
Mine does the exact same thing, but only on cold startup. I assumed it was bad secondary tensioners and replaced them but that was wasted time and money. the GenII tensioners that came out looked new even at 130k miles.
Mine seems like timing chain tensioners and i have the primary TC and tensioners. Just haven't had the guts to tear it all apart.
When I did the secondary tensioners the instructions said to remove the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine to get the oil pressure up before firing it up. Tried that after i learned the secondary tensioners didn't solve the problem and found that it works, when the oil pressure is up before firing, I don't get the startup rattle. Or if the car has been fired that day, the rattle doesn't happen.
Anyone solve this one?
Again in post #12... RCodePaul says this:
Any luck tracking down the source of the noise? I have the exact same thing and it's only at startup, only for a few seconds. It's not an under load pinging, it is an irregular clatter just at startup.
Post #30... Telco syas this:
Update on this: The car makes the noise on startup whether I give it a short burst or not. However, I have isolated it to happening when the car has been sitting for a while, and the temp is between about 40 to 60 degrees F. If it's hotter than this or colder than this, it doesn't make the noise....
...As a reminder, the noise only happens when the car is completely cold, only happens at startup, and the longest it's lasted has been 3 seconds, and sounds like a BB in a coffee can. Once the noise has happened on startup I never hear it again until the car has sat long enough to get completely cold. Warm starts as I go through the day, never hear it.
Post #35... Joegr says this:
Oddly enough, my 04 did something similar this morning when my wife started it. In my case, it was very regular and sounded very much like a bad lifter (which this engine doesn't have any)....
....When I restarted it, it did the same thing but stopped doing it this time after two or three seconds. It was too quick for me to localize the sound (and I had my stethoscope ready).
Post #41... Telco says this:
Yep, that's what I have, 2-3 seconds of clatter then it's gone, too fast to localize not that I really can anyway as sound is just a wall to me. I am starting to wonder if it might not be a starter issue, like the solenoid isn't completely disengaging from the flywheel. It does have kind of a tinny quality to it....
Post #44... 2006LincolnLS says this:
I get something very similar to this on my 06. Only at cold start ups. It makes a loud sound that i cannot describe. Once the car drops to idle it goes away. Usually only 40 degrees or colder....
Post #46... RCodePaul says this:
Next time, Joe and Telco, try cranking it cold with the fuel pump fuse removed for six seconds (to build oil pressure.) My guess is that when you replace the fuel pump fuse and start it, VIOLA, it will have no noise.
If that's the case, is this an issue with the main timing chain tensioners bleeding off residual oil pressure and the chain rattling until oil pressure is established?
Does that eliminate the other (myriad) of possibilities?
In post #47... Telco says this:
Sorry, no. Cranking without starting will do the same thing, and I've had the noise after a crank no start. I'm starting to think slow solenoid now.
Post #50... Joegr says this:
So far, it hasn't done it again for me. When it did do it, it sounded like it was mid engine on the passenger side. It sounded a lot like a rod knock.
Post #51... RCodePaul says this:
Hmm, mine does it consistently on cold starts, lessened or eliminated after cranking with no FP fuse. Does not make the noise while cranking. Also, mine is quicker than a rod knock, multiple clatter noises for just a brief moment.
Post #52... LS4me says this:
Could it be lowish oil pressure???
Post #64... RCodePaul says this:
Well, I wish it were one or the other at this point. @#$%. I pulled the serp belt last night and it still has the startup rattle. Will try the starter thing next but it sounds very front of engine to me.
Post #67... Rallyusa says this:
Well the bad news is that it isn't your tensioner, the good news is that you just eliminated quite a few possibilities, essentially everything connected to your accessory drive belt. So whats left?
Timing chain slop due to low initial oil pressure not extending the timing chain tensioners all the way
The fact that it only happens when it is cold means that it could possibly be oil viscocity related, I do know that fully synthetic oil tends not to "gelatinize" at colder temps like regular oil does and has generally better flow when cold.
..................................................................
Oil filter and belt tensioner discussions then ensued, (along with previous mentions of starter possibilities and piston slap).
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Post #82... RCodePaul says this:
Telco, any news? I was convinced the sound was louder down by the starter. So I pulled my starter and bench tested it. While the thing bench tested fine, the retraction was strong, but it seemed full of brush dust. All crusty and dry. The rear bushing was really dry and the planet gears in the gear reduction were full of brush dust.
So I replaced it.
Still have the startup rattle though.
Sonofabitch.
Post #84... RCodePauls says this:
My clatter at startup seems totally like a "dry start" zero oil in the motor, all the oil in the pan kind of rattle. It doesn't sound like piston slap and it's just for a second or two right at startup. Mine isn't ambient temp related and mine is not way down on the list.
Wondering if there is a check valve somewhere that's failed letting all the oil drain to the pan. On an Audi site one guy said there was one in that engine in the oil filter adapter. Mine started it after an oil change so I tried several different oil filters including one from the Lincoln dealer and heavier oil viscosity.
If I crank the motor with the fp fuse removed to build oil pressure for 10 seconds or so it will start without the rattle. As posted elsewhere I've eliminated the front accessory possibility and even changed the starter and secondary tensioners.
It's a genII so the tensioners shouldn't be an issue, but you never know.
Post #86... Joegr says this:
...I've looked in the service manual and parts drawings for the check valve, but I haven't found it. As far as I can tell, there's only a pressure bypass valve in the filter. It does seem that the check valve must be between the oil pump and the filter. It may be that it's just a feature of the oil pump design that the oil doesn't normally drain back through it....
Post #93... Teezony says this:
i have the same exact rattle you describe on my girlfriends 2005 ls that i got for her ,i agree that it must be an oil problem, i use motocraft oil filters,and i also noticed that when i do the oil and filter change i usually let it drip for a while to get all the old oil out ,when i add oil and start it for the fist time it rattles worst than ever like 4 full seconds,usually its 1 or 2 seconds so it has to be an oil problem....
............................................................................
WE ARE ALL WALKING IN CIRCLES AROUND THE SOLUTION PEOPLE... while stating the symptoms of the problematic diagnosis.
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Post #95... Nicholbe says this:
My 2005 LS V8 is having the same problem. On a cold crank I hear a rattling noise for about 2 seconds – Then the car runs perfect. I’ve check all the pulleys, replaced the accessory belt and belt tensioner. Finally I took it to the local Lincoln dealer, and was told it was a timing chain tensioner problem (after them having the car for two days), so to avoid their high repair costs I’m going to change the tensioners this weekend, and see if this is the cause of the noise.
Post #97... Joegr says this:
No, The first sign of timing tensioner failure is a rattle at cold startup that often goes away after a little bit.
It will be interesting/disturbing if this is a gen II timing tensioner problem.
..............................................................
More belt tensioner discussions then ensued... and other stuff.
..............................................................
Post #115... MA70Ed says:
keep us updated, my 03 does the same rattle you described after sitting for 6hrs+
Post #116 ... BigWayner95 says:
Ya I got the same issue on my 05.. only when cold start up sounds like a lifter or a broken rod slapping around... goes away after 3 sec... makes me very nervous and upset just bought the car Wednesday... have we found a solution yet?
Post #117... RCodePaul says:
Ya I got the same issue on my 05.. only when cold start up sounds like a lifter or a broken rod slapping around... goes away after 3 sec... makes me very nervous and upset just bought the car Wednesday... have we found a solution yet?
Post #120... BigWayner95 says:
Have a thought... I took to the ls to auto zone to have light checked. got an error code... the resutls of the code came up with....
P0022
A variable cam timing. Over retarted (story of my life lol)
Explanation
The ECM has detected the VCT postion is in a over retarted condition-camshaft - timimng retarded probable cause.
Cam Timing incorrect
or
VCT Solenoid stuck open
Could this be the issues the sound we are having??
..................................................................................................
HMMM... I THINK WE ARE GETTING CLOSER... VCT OVER RETARDED. sounds like the same issue I posted in post #290 in the second link I provided.
Cooling system parts replacement dicussions then ensue.
...................................................................................................
Post #139... BigWayner95 says:
So amongst all these post... Have we yet figured out the problem? I will be posting a video today, when I get off as to the sound im having... Because I want the noise gone! and Im pretty darn sure, I am experiencing the same sound here. and I have 05 with 118K.
Its only at first start up, cooler engine as if 30 to 50 temp. and last only 3sec. Even if I directly shut engine off after and start it up again, it wont do it. just after sitting for a bit...
We have got to solve this!!
........................................................................................................
By this time I am at post #140. I'm not going any further. If any of you have removed the accessory belt,,, and eliminated it plus all accessorys and pulleys, (including water pump)... plus starter, (and heat sheild or conveter or whatever),,, from the issue of a startup rattle... then you need to look deeper.
The last link I provided in post #290... is to a Jaguar forum. Keep in mind that Ford bought Jag during the years of the LS, (and Thunderbird),,, and that Ford adopted alot of Jag's technology. The LS V8 is a Jag engine design...built to Ford specs,,, with some Jag parts.
In the last link I provided in post #290,,, a poster mentions a "lock pin", (I.E. "check valve") inside the VVT cam phaser. The poster mentions the "lock pin" can fail,,, which allows oil to drain out of the cam phaser. The poster also mentions that the "lock pin" is not supposed to open until oil in the engine reaches 22 PSI.
So... by what is said,,, if oil drains out of the cam phaser due to a faulty "lock pin"... the cam phaser will rattle until the engine reaches 22 PSI oil pressure,,, and oil is then restored to the cam phaser. This all sounds like iisues with the cam phasers on the LS GEN II engines. The VVT on GEN II LS V8's is mechanical and operated by oil pressure. Not much left beyond chains and tensioners,,, except VVT cam phasers.
..........................................................................................................
...When I start the car, it sounds like BBs in a coffee can for a few seconds, which then goes away. It's not a steady sound as you'd expect with a collapsed lifter, more of an irregular clatter....
Post #5... RCodePaul says this:
Mine does the exact same thing, but only on cold startup. I assumed it was bad secondary tensioners and replaced them but that was wasted time and money. the GenII tensioners that came out looked new even at 130k miles.
Mine seems like timing chain tensioners and i have the primary TC and tensioners. Just haven't had the guts to tear it all apart.
When I did the secondary tensioners the instructions said to remove the fuel pump fuse and crank the engine to get the oil pressure up before firing it up. Tried that after i learned the secondary tensioners didn't solve the problem and found that it works, when the oil pressure is up before firing, I don't get the startup rattle. Or if the car has been fired that day, the rattle doesn't happen.
Anyone solve this one?
Again in post #12... RCodePaul says this:
Any luck tracking down the source of the noise? I have the exact same thing and it's only at startup, only for a few seconds. It's not an under load pinging, it is an irregular clatter just at startup.
Post #30... Telco syas this:
Update on this: The car makes the noise on startup whether I give it a short burst or not. However, I have isolated it to happening when the car has been sitting for a while, and the temp is between about 40 to 60 degrees F. If it's hotter than this or colder than this, it doesn't make the noise....
...As a reminder, the noise only happens when the car is completely cold, only happens at startup, and the longest it's lasted has been 3 seconds, and sounds like a BB in a coffee can. Once the noise has happened on startup I never hear it again until the car has sat long enough to get completely cold. Warm starts as I go through the day, never hear it.
Post #35... Joegr says this:
Oddly enough, my 04 did something similar this morning when my wife started it. In my case, it was very regular and sounded very much like a bad lifter (which this engine doesn't have any)....
....When I restarted it, it did the same thing but stopped doing it this time after two or three seconds. It was too quick for me to localize the sound (and I had my stethoscope ready).
Post #41... Telco says this:
Yep, that's what I have, 2-3 seconds of clatter then it's gone, too fast to localize not that I really can anyway as sound is just a wall to me. I am starting to wonder if it might not be a starter issue, like the solenoid isn't completely disengaging from the flywheel. It does have kind of a tinny quality to it....
Post #44... 2006LincolnLS says this:
I get something very similar to this on my 06. Only at cold start ups. It makes a loud sound that i cannot describe. Once the car drops to idle it goes away. Usually only 40 degrees or colder....
Post #46... RCodePaul says this:
Next time, Joe and Telco, try cranking it cold with the fuel pump fuse removed for six seconds (to build oil pressure.) My guess is that when you replace the fuel pump fuse and start it, VIOLA, it will have no noise.
If that's the case, is this an issue with the main timing chain tensioners bleeding off residual oil pressure and the chain rattling until oil pressure is established?
Does that eliminate the other (myriad) of possibilities?
In post #47... Telco says this:
Sorry, no. Cranking without starting will do the same thing, and I've had the noise after a crank no start. I'm starting to think slow solenoid now.
Post #50... Joegr says this:
So far, it hasn't done it again for me. When it did do it, it sounded like it was mid engine on the passenger side. It sounded a lot like a rod knock.
Post #51... RCodePaul says this:
Hmm, mine does it consistently on cold starts, lessened or eliminated after cranking with no FP fuse. Does not make the noise while cranking. Also, mine is quicker than a rod knock, multiple clatter noises for just a brief moment.
Post #52... LS4me says this:
Could it be lowish oil pressure???
Post #64... RCodePaul says this:
Well, I wish it were one or the other at this point. @#$%. I pulled the serp belt last night and it still has the startup rattle. Will try the starter thing next but it sounds very front of engine to me.
Post #67... Rallyusa says this:
Well the bad news is that it isn't your tensioner, the good news is that you just eliminated quite a few possibilities, essentially everything connected to your accessory drive belt. So whats left?
Timing chain slop due to low initial oil pressure not extending the timing chain tensioners all the way
The fact that it only happens when it is cold means that it could possibly be oil viscocity related, I do know that fully synthetic oil tends not to "gelatinize" at colder temps like regular oil does and has generally better flow when cold.
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Oil filter and belt tensioner discussions then ensued, (along with previous mentions of starter possibilities and piston slap).
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Post #82... RCodePaul says this:
Telco, any news? I was convinced the sound was louder down by the starter. So I pulled my starter and bench tested it. While the thing bench tested fine, the retraction was strong, but it seemed full of brush dust. All crusty and dry. The rear bushing was really dry and the planet gears in the gear reduction were full of brush dust.
So I replaced it.
Still have the startup rattle though.
Sonofabitch.
Post #84... RCodePauls says this:
My clatter at startup seems totally like a "dry start" zero oil in the motor, all the oil in the pan kind of rattle. It doesn't sound like piston slap and it's just for a second or two right at startup. Mine isn't ambient temp related and mine is not way down on the list.
Wondering if there is a check valve somewhere that's failed letting all the oil drain to the pan. On an Audi site one guy said there was one in that engine in the oil filter adapter. Mine started it after an oil change so I tried several different oil filters including one from the Lincoln dealer and heavier oil viscosity.
If I crank the motor with the fp fuse removed to build oil pressure for 10 seconds or so it will start without the rattle. As posted elsewhere I've eliminated the front accessory possibility and even changed the starter and secondary tensioners.
It's a genII so the tensioners shouldn't be an issue, but you never know.
Post #86... Joegr says this:
...I've looked in the service manual and parts drawings for the check valve, but I haven't found it. As far as I can tell, there's only a pressure bypass valve in the filter. It does seem that the check valve must be between the oil pump and the filter. It may be that it's just a feature of the oil pump design that the oil doesn't normally drain back through it....
Post #93... Teezony says this:
i have the same exact rattle you describe on my girlfriends 2005 ls that i got for her ,i agree that it must be an oil problem, i use motocraft oil filters,and i also noticed that when i do the oil and filter change i usually let it drip for a while to get all the old oil out ,when i add oil and start it for the fist time it rattles worst than ever like 4 full seconds,usually its 1 or 2 seconds so it has to be an oil problem....
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WE ARE ALL WALKING IN CIRCLES AROUND THE SOLUTION PEOPLE... while stating the symptoms of the problematic diagnosis.
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Post #95... Nicholbe says this:
My 2005 LS V8 is having the same problem. On a cold crank I hear a rattling noise for about 2 seconds – Then the car runs perfect. I’ve check all the pulleys, replaced the accessory belt and belt tensioner. Finally I took it to the local Lincoln dealer, and was told it was a timing chain tensioner problem (after them having the car for two days), so to avoid their high repair costs I’m going to change the tensioners this weekend, and see if this is the cause of the noise.
Post #97... Joegr says this:
No, The first sign of timing tensioner failure is a rattle at cold startup that often goes away after a little bit.
It will be interesting/disturbing if this is a gen II timing tensioner problem.
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More belt tensioner discussions then ensued... and other stuff.
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Post #115... MA70Ed says:
keep us updated, my 03 does the same rattle you described after sitting for 6hrs+
Post #116 ... BigWayner95 says:
Ya I got the same issue on my 05.. only when cold start up sounds like a lifter or a broken rod slapping around... goes away after 3 sec... makes me very nervous and upset just bought the car Wednesday... have we found a solution yet?
Post #117... RCodePaul says:
Ya I got the same issue on my 05.. only when cold start up sounds like a lifter or a broken rod slapping around... goes away after 3 sec... makes me very nervous and upset just bought the car Wednesday... have we found a solution yet?
Post #120... BigWayner95 says:
Have a thought... I took to the ls to auto zone to have light checked. got an error code... the resutls of the code came up with....
P0022
A variable cam timing. Over retarted (story of my life lol)
Explanation
The ECM has detected the VCT postion is in a over retarted condition-camshaft - timimng retarded probable cause.
Cam Timing incorrect
or
VCT Solenoid stuck open
Could this be the issues the sound we are having??
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HMMM... I THINK WE ARE GETTING CLOSER... VCT OVER RETARDED. sounds like the same issue I posted in post #290 in the second link I provided.
Cooling system parts replacement dicussions then ensue.
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Post #139... BigWayner95 says:
So amongst all these post... Have we yet figured out the problem? I will be posting a video today, when I get off as to the sound im having... Because I want the noise gone! and Im pretty darn sure, I am experiencing the same sound here. and I have 05 with 118K.
Its only at first start up, cooler engine as if 30 to 50 temp. and last only 3sec. Even if I directly shut engine off after and start it up again, it wont do it. just after sitting for a bit...
We have got to solve this!!
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By this time I am at post #140. I'm not going any further. If any of you have removed the accessory belt,,, and eliminated it plus all accessorys and pulleys, (including water pump)... plus starter, (and heat sheild or conveter or whatever),,, from the issue of a startup rattle... then you need to look deeper.
The last link I provided in post #290... is to a Jaguar forum. Keep in mind that Ford bought Jag during the years of the LS, (and Thunderbird),,, and that Ford adopted alot of Jag's technology. The LS V8 is a Jag engine design...built to Ford specs,,, with some Jag parts.
In the last link I provided in post #290,,, a poster mentions a "lock pin", (I.E. "check valve") inside the VVT cam phaser. The poster mentions the "lock pin" can fail,,, which allows oil to drain out of the cam phaser. The poster also mentions that the "lock pin" is not supposed to open until oil in the engine reaches 22 PSI.
So... by what is said,,, if oil drains out of the cam phaser due to a faulty "lock pin"... the cam phaser will rattle until the engine reaches 22 PSI oil pressure,,, and oil is then restored to the cam phaser. This all sounds like iisues with the cam phasers on the LS GEN II engines. The VVT on GEN II LS V8's is mechanical and operated by oil pressure. Not much left beyond chains and tensioners,,, except VVT cam phasers.
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mpd4200
LVC Member
Wow! thanks for taking the time to summarize.
Edit: a bit of research shows the cam phasers to be a big issue on the 5.4 motors. Google "ford cam phaser" for more fun reading
Edit: a bit of research shows the cam phasers to be a big issue on the 5.4 motors. Google "ford cam phaser" for more fun reading
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Yeah...
Interesting that the first year for the 3V 5.4 with cam phasers... is the same year the LS got a HP increase with VVT/VCT,,, using cam phasers.
Ford sold the LS short from what it "could have been".... but if people could have bought a 4 door version of a Mustang,,, it may have undercut Mustang sales to a point. So it was partially a "marketing" thing by Ford... but also the fact that they took a "prestamped" version of a Jaguar,,, changed the sheetmetal and put a Ford badge on it.
The following is slightly off topic... but still on topic to a degree.
Had Ford wanted to make a "true" Sport or Ultimate version of the LS... they would have taken a current, (at the time from 2003-2005), all aluminum version of the 4.6, and stuffed it down in the LS. 302HP and 318 LB Ft. of torque,,, From a 4V NON VVT/VCT ENGINE!!! All they would have had to do is re-spring and re-strut the front suspension,,, and re-form the sheet metal around the strut towers,,, and a stiffer front swaybar.
Now if that isn't enough... think about the mods that can be done to a 4.6,,, that can't easily be done to the 3.9. All we have is the exhaust, CAI, and a re-program. The 4.6 has cams and throttle body,,, plus the standard LS upgrades. McClaren was on the right track with their prototype,,, but they stayed within the confines that Ford gave them.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/mclaren-performance-lincoln-ls-auto-shows
A 4.6 version of the LS,,, could have easily tied or bested the supercharged McClaen version. Plus... the torque of the 4.6 would have given it a lower "power band",,, which should mean better gas milage.
For those wondering about the limitations of the 5r55s tranny,,, keep in mind that the same tranny has been used in Mustang GT's for years since LS production has stopped. Something else. Lincoln has always been the innovative side of FMC. Many Lincoln designs,,, are prototypical of what will follow in Ford products. What works... stays in production. What doesn't... is redesigned. Most of what is found in 10 year old LS's... is still in production today,,, with further improvements.
There is a reason Ford bought Jaguar. For design and technology improvements,,, while being able to bypass leagal copyright issues. Part of the increase in price for a Lincoln,,, is paying for R&D. That's why the LS cost 40G+ when it was in production. Cadillac and Chrysler did it for years too,,, and still are. So are Lexus and Infinity.
This has been going on for years. Chrysler built the first Hemi engine in 1964,,, and that sent them to the front in Nascar. Ford responded by designing their own experimental Hemi version of a 484 DOHC engine in the late 60's,,, but it never went into production. Obviously... it was a Hemi copy,,, but with further design improvements. Have fun finding info on it. The only reason I know about it,,, is from a high school autoshop book.
Nuff said at this point.
Interesting that the first year for the 3V 5.4 with cam phasers... is the same year the LS got a HP increase with VVT/VCT,,, using cam phasers.
Ford sold the LS short from what it "could have been".... but if people could have bought a 4 door version of a Mustang,,, it may have undercut Mustang sales to a point. So it was partially a "marketing" thing by Ford... but also the fact that they took a "prestamped" version of a Jaguar,,, changed the sheetmetal and put a Ford badge on it.
The following is slightly off topic... but still on topic to a degree.
Had Ford wanted to make a "true" Sport or Ultimate version of the LS... they would have taken a current, (at the time from 2003-2005), all aluminum version of the 4.6, and stuffed it down in the LS. 302HP and 318 LB Ft. of torque,,, From a 4V NON VVT/VCT ENGINE!!! All they would have had to do is re-spring and re-strut the front suspension,,, and re-form the sheet metal around the strut towers,,, and a stiffer front swaybar.
Now if that isn't enough... think about the mods that can be done to a 4.6,,, that can't easily be done to the 3.9. All we have is the exhaust, CAI, and a re-program. The 4.6 has cams and throttle body,,, plus the standard LS upgrades. McClaren was on the right track with their prototype,,, but they stayed within the confines that Ford gave them.
http://www.caranddriver.com/news/mclaren-performance-lincoln-ls-auto-shows
A 4.6 version of the LS,,, could have easily tied or bested the supercharged McClaen version. Plus... the torque of the 4.6 would have given it a lower "power band",,, which should mean better gas milage.
For those wondering about the limitations of the 5r55s tranny,,, keep in mind that the same tranny has been used in Mustang GT's for years since LS production has stopped. Something else. Lincoln has always been the innovative side of FMC. Many Lincoln designs,,, are prototypical of what will follow in Ford products. What works... stays in production. What doesn't... is redesigned. Most of what is found in 10 year old LS's... is still in production today,,, with further improvements.
There is a reason Ford bought Jaguar. For design and technology improvements,,, while being able to bypass leagal copyright issues. Part of the increase in price for a Lincoln,,, is paying for R&D. That's why the LS cost 40G+ when it was in production. Cadillac and Chrysler did it for years too,,, and still are. So are Lexus and Infinity.
This has been going on for years. Chrysler built the first Hemi engine in 1964,,, and that sent them to the front in Nascar. Ford responded by designing their own experimental Hemi version of a 484 DOHC engine in the late 60's,,, but it never went into production. Obviously... it was a Hemi copy,,, but with further design improvements. Have fun finding info on it. The only reason I know about it,,, is from a high school autoshop book.
Nuff said at this point.
Too bad the 4.6L didn't fit from the bottom. Too bad even the Ford engineers that did stuff one in the LS couldn't solve the cooling issue.
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
I really feel like it either must have not been a huge priority, or didn't have the proper time to try to fix (unless those engineers had a small coolant leak and also didn't believe that they needed to change ALL the plastic parts LOL) because the mod motor should have used its own water pump which wouldn't have any problems moving enough water for its own engine. or of the problem was that the flowing water wasn't getting cooled enough, then they could have just put a bigger radiator in it (cough cough cobra cough). I mean how hard could they have really tried to solve the problem, they were probably more trying to figure out the nightmare that is a motor swap in an LS and getting all the computers to play nice in the sandbox...
I'm telling you, if they have modified the body just a bit to make it actually fit, the LS would have been an entirely different monster, the best sport lincolns have shared mustang parts! the LS being the first after a long while to separate from this is one of the main issues of unreliability (not saying that the car isn't reliable, just talking about what the car has for reliability issues), causes it to be more costly, and is definitely responsible for its mediocre performance compared to some of its competition.
could have actually made the LSE something special, even if only in limited numbers, for the 1st gen they could have used a standard aluminator, then the timing of the 2nd gen would have been perfect to have a terminator powered LS backed by a tremec, probably would have been able to keep up with the big dog caddies AMGs and Ms...
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Loud,
Thanks. You pretty much took the words out of my mouth in post #296. Ford should have also stuffed the IRS from the SVT, (cough cough cobra cough), under the LS. There's only 000.1" difference in track width. Then we have the aftermarket of a drop in 3.73 or 4.10 rear gear.
Thanks. You pretty much took the words out of my mouth in post #296. Ford should have also stuffed the IRS from the SVT, (cough cough cobra cough), under the LS. There's only 000.1" difference in track width. Then we have the aftermarket of a drop in 3.73 or 4.10 rear gear.
Are you an automotive engineer? Having heard directly from the horse's mouth this wasn't possible. There is infinitely more involved than than just widening the uni-body a little. That's why the Mustang didn't use the DEW98. There is a law of unintended consequences.......
Nothing like armchair quarterbacks.....