Evolving Middle East Crisis Thread

[Calabrio]

And.........what?
What conclusion do you reach?
You're using a lot of words to not say much.

What I'm saying is that you keep restating some desired end result, but you haven't, or can't, present a plausible scenario that would make such an outcome possible.

Unless you can begin to articulate HOW something may happen, incorporating the KNOWN information, you're engaged in dangerous fantasy.

 

[foxpaws]

I really am sort of wondering on your stand on this Cal -

I haven't been following this story as closely as you have, nor, obviously have I placed the 'imminent end of the world as we know it' moniker on it.

However, you seem to have been in the past very 'pro-democracy', even appearing to give credence to outside forces (such as the US) waging war to foster that idea worldwide.

Here we have a people who want to overthrow an autocrat. They are, to this point, asking for democracy.

Do we only support democracy when it marches to our tune? And do you really feel comfortable supporting an autocrat, even when the people of that country obviously do not. Or, do you place some 'autocrats' as superior to others, because they ally themselves with the US?

I realize that there are many, many other factors here - stability of a region, the power that might be granted to a religious group that threatens the west, but, isn't it at its very core - the right of the people to govern themselves?

I think the right will be rather split on this - it will be interesting to see where this plays within the party.

 

[04SCTLS]

What I'm saying is that you keep restating some desired end result, but you haven't, or can't, present a plausible scenario that would make such an outcome possible.

Unless you can begin to articulate HOW something may happen, incorporating the KNOWN information, you're engaged in dangerous fantasy.

You're confused.
I haven't stated a desired end result.
I don't know what the result may be.
You're the one who has already reached a conclusion
that Egypt will become a radical country and go to war or something.

 

[remark]

isn't egypt under fire the first sign of the apocalypse?:shifty:

 

[foxpaws]

isn't egypt under fire the first sign of the apocalypse?:shifty:

this is sort of along these, and Cal's, thought lines...

And yes, the religious right does see this as the beginning of the end...
In the apocalyptic view of politics that dominates the Christian right, Muslim nations are closely connected to the rise of the Antichrist, while the restoration of the Jews to the entire biblical land of Israel is key to the Second Coming. The end of days will be marked by the emergence of a one-world government and a great world war in the Middle East, culminating in a battle at Megiddo, or Armageddon, an actual place in Israel. To side with the protesters in Egypt, at the expense of Israeli security, is to back Satan's team in the coming biblical showdown.

YouTube - Glenn Beck-01/31/11-B

 

[remark]

To side with the protesters in Egypt, at the expense of Israeli security, is to back Satan's team in the coming biblical showdown.

something about this comment makes me laugh. not to derail, but didnt god create satan, and give him the power he supposedly has? why would satan be able to rule his own afterlife, if he were not a god himself? how could satan ever defeat god(his "creator")?

 

[shagdrum]

Ah, Foxy. Always looking to confuse the issue in order to distract. Good to know some things never change...

 

[shagdrum]

I haven't stated a desired end result.

No, you've alluded to it.

You're the one who has already reached a conclusion
that Egypt will become a radical country and go to war or something.

Where has he done that? Where has Cal "reached a conclusion" as you say?

All I see is Cal voicing a very real possibility and you are poo-pooing it while engaging in flights of fancy that serve to unrealistically romanticize the riots while ignoring the very real and far reaching consequences of them. The international stage is a very peculiar balancing act with a lot of nuance and subtlety. You don't even seem to realize that what goes on here will have far reaching consequences beyond simply Egypt and beyond the short term; as if it is happening in some sort of vacuum. Frankly, that is the type of understanding of international affairs that I would expect from the writers of Star Trek (and I don't give them much credence).

 

[remark]

Ah, Foxy. Always looking to confuse the issue in order to distract. Good to know some things never change...

i suppose i was the distraction. i took the bait:shifty:

 

[shagdrum]

i suppose i was the distraction. i took the bait:shifty:

She is a very creative opportunist. It is amazing what she can manipulate. I've learned a lot from her.

 

[04SCTLS]

Where has he done that? Where has Cal "reached a conclusion" as you say?

Prepare Egyptians for war....close Suez Canal
is the title of this thread.

 

[foxpaws]

So shag, how do you feel about a democracy in Egypt? If it doesn't conform to our ideals, isn't it still a democracy, and should be lauded as such?

 

[04SCTLS]

All I see is Cal voicing a very real possibility and you are poo-pooing it while engaging in flights of fancy that serve to unrealistically romanticize the riots while ignoring the very real and far reaching consequences of them. The international stage is a very peculiar balancing act with a lot of nuance and subtlety. You don't even seem to realize that what goes on here will have far reaching consequences beyond simply Egypt and beyond the short term; as if it is happening in some sort of vacuum. Frankly, that is the type of understanding of international affairs that I would expect from the writers of Star Trek (and I don't give them much credence).

That's just your feel good put down opinion towards me
I know the possible ramifications and consequences of what is happening.
You don't have to lecture me.
We're all pundits here on this one.

 

[04SCTLS]

So shag, how do you feel about a democracy in Egypt? If it doesn't conform to our ideals, isn't it still a democracy, and should be lauded as such?

Bingo!
Give us a good hypocritical apology why our materialism overshadows our idealism.

Or put another way do our ideals only apply in the USA?

 

[shagdrum]

So shag, how do you feel about a democracy in Egypt? If it doesn't conform to our ideals, isn't it still a democracy, and should be lauded as such?

You really expect me to answer your loaded questions?

 

[Calabrio]

Prepare Egyptians for war....close Suez Canal
is the title of this thread.

Yes, that is part of the quote from the Muslim Brotherhood in the newspaper article in the original post of the thread.

So shag, how do you feel about a democracy in Egypt? If it doesn't conform to our ideals, isn't it still a democracy, and should be lauded as such?

No, it doesn't have to conform to our ideals or be a direct copy of our system.
But you know full well that isn't the point of this conversation.

 

[shagdrum]

Bingo!
Give us a good hypocritical apology why our materialism overshadows our idealism.

Or put another way do our ideals only apply in the USA?

I see you are buying into her loaded question and attempting to reinforce it with a false dichotomy of of your own (materalism vs. idealism).

International politics is complex and all the disingenuous moralizing only serves to confuse things. Instead of approaching this issue with all the sophistication of a doped up G8 protesting hippie, let's start at the most basic level and work our way forward. Answer me this;

What should be the focus of US foreign policy?

 

[04SCTLS]

I see you are buying into her loaded question and attempting to reinforce it with a false dichotomy of of your own (materalism vs. idealism).

International politics is complex and all the disingenuous moralizing only serves to confuse things. Instead of approaching this issue with all the sophistication of a doped up G8 protesting hippie, let's start at the most basic level and work our way forward. Answer me this;

What should be the focus of US foreign policy?

To promote and protect our interests.
Spreading democracy sometimes coincides with that.

 

[shagdrum]

To promote and protect our interests.
Spreading democracy sometimes coincides with that.

So, the primary function of US foreign policy should be to promote our national interest, correct?

 

[04SCTLS]

So, the primary function of US foreign policy should be to promote our national interest, correct?

Sometimes we even overthrow democratically elected governments like Iran in 1954.

http://www.finalcall.com/artman/publish/article_2703.shtml

Overthrow a hallmark of US policy

“Actually, the United States has been overthrowing governments for more than a century,” Mr. Kinzer said in an interview. He documents this in a new book, “Overthrow: America’s Century of Regime Change from Hawaii to Iraq,” which is the third in a series of regime change books. His previous two: “All the Shah’s Men: An American Coup and the Roots of Middle East Terror” (2003), and “Bitter Fruit: The Untold Story of the American Coup in Guatemala” (1982). Together, they would make a remarkable “regime change” boxed set for the holidays.

 

[Calabrio]

this is sort of along these, and Cal's, thought lines...

YouTube - Glenn Beck-01/31/11-B

I do think Beck's geo-political hypothesis is pretty accurate, though they are extreme examples and because of the format, a bit too condensed and simplified. I've spoken about it in the past during other conversations we've had here about Islam and jihad.

None of this is a revelation if you've studied Islam, the history of it, and the region. To ignore the history is to deny the truth and essentially lie to yourself.

There's no silver bullet to the problems in Egypt and it will continue to spread. At this point, the administration is left with only better or worse actions when it comes to the response.

I don't think people understand how serious the events in the Middle East are right now, nor do I think they understand how it's going to result in a chain reaction of events that profoundly impact our way of life.

And I think it's critically important for people to start discussing these things honestly. The partisan nonsense and dishonest rhetorical games need to stop, anyone is knowingly doing that has an agenda and are dangerous.

 

[shagdrum]

Sometimes we even overthrow democratically elected governments like Iran in 1954.

Apparently you aren't interested in a serious discussion on this issue...

 

[04SCTLS]

Apparently you aren't interested in a serious discussion on this issue...

I don't want to get into a long slog over foreign policy in this thread.
I only brought it up because foxy asked you a loaded question.
Our foreign policy is geared to material interests and we only trumpet our ideals when it's convenient.
Otherwise it's just lip service.
If it's too expensive to promote our ideals and lose valuable things we don't bother.
Human rights does not make us any money so we only bring it up if it's not in conflict with our economic and military goals.
We turn a blind eye.The third world is a rough place and it's easier and more convenient buying and dealing with autocratic strongmen.
We're cynical and practical when it comes to looking after ourselves.
This is really our hypocritical apology.
It is what it is.

 

[shagdrum]

I don't want to get into a long slog over foreign policy in this thread.
I only brought it up because foxy asked you a loaded question.
Our foreign policy is geared to material interests and we only trumpet our ideals when it's convenient.
Otherwise it's just lip service.
If it's too expensive to promote our ideals and lose valuable things we don't bother.
Human rights does not make us any money so we only bring it up if it's not in conflict with our economic and military goals.
Otherwise we turn a blind eye.
We're cynical and practical when it comes to looking after ourselves.

Like I said you are not interested in a serious discussion; only in being contentious to show how "enlightened" you are. Actual critical thought would involve too much self-reflection to be convenient. Can't challenge that "genius level" IQ of yours, eh?

As the highlighted ignorance shows, you would fit right in with the G8 protesters.

 

[shagdrum]

The partisan nonsense and dishonest rhetorical games need to stop, anyone is knowingly doing that has an agenda and are dangerous.

Agreed.