GOP attempts to BURN FREEDOM for political gain

[JohnnyBz00LS]

But they are shot-down in flames............

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,201308,00.html

Flag Amendment Fails by Single Vote
Wednesday, June 28, 2006

WASHINGTON — The narrow defeat of a proposal to ban flag desecration marks the second time in a month Senate Republicans have lost bids to amend the Constitution in ways designed to inspire social conservatives to vote in the midterm elections.

The 66-34 tally on the flag amendment Tuesday was one less than the two-thirds, or 67 votes, required to send it to the states for ratification. The House cleared the two-thirds threshold last year, 286-130.

Sponsored by Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, the amendment read: "The Congress shall have power to prohibit the physical desecration of the flag of the United States."

A proposed amendment earlier this month to ban gay marriage suffered a more decisive defeat, killed on a test vote.

Winning isn't the only goal for those measures or other social policy proposals congressional Republicans will bring up this year in an effort to energize their base of voters.

House Republicans intend to hold votes this summer and fall touching on abortion, guns, religion and other priority issues for social conservatives, part of an attempt to improve the party's prospects in the midterm elections.

The "American Values Agenda" also includes the gay marriage amendment, a prohibition on human cloning and possibly votes on several popular tax cuts.

The flag amendment's cliffhanger defeat a week before Independence Day represented Congress' response to Supreme Court rulings in 1989 and 1990 that burning and other desecration of the flag are protected as free speech by the First Amendment to the Constitution.

Senate supporters said the flag amounts to a national monument in cloth that represents freedom and the sacrifice of American troops.

"Countless men and women have died defending that flag," said Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., closing two days of debate. "It is but a small humble act for us to defend it."

Opponents said the amendment would violate the First Amendment right to free speech. And some Democrats complained that majority Republicans were exploiting people's patriotism for political advantage.

"Our country's unique because our dissidents have a voice," said Sen. Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii, a World War II veteran who lost an arm in the war and was decorated with the Medal of Honor.

"While I take offense at disrespect to the flag," he said, "I nonetheless believe it is my continued duty as a veteran, as an American citizen, and as a United States senator to defend the constitutional right of protesters to use the flag in nonviolent speech."

Among possible presidential contenders in 2008, six voted yes: Democrat Evan Bayh of Indiana and Republicans George Allen of Virginia, Sam Brownback of Kansas, Frist, Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, and John McCain of Arizona. Five, all Democrats, voted no: Joseph Biden of Delaware, Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York, Christopher Dodd of Connecticut, Russell Feingold of Wisconsin, John Kerry of Massachusetts.

The Senate also rejected an alternative put forward by assistant Democratic leader Dick Durbin of Illinois. It would have made it against the law to damage the flag on federal land or with the intent of breaching the peace or intimidation. It also would have prohibited unapproved demonstrations at military funerals.

The House meanwhile passed by voice vote a measure that would bar condominium and homeowner associations from restricting how the flag can be displayed.

Sponsored by Rep. Roscoe Bartlett, R-Md., the resolution would prohibit those groups from preventing residents from displaying an American flag on their own property. The Senate is considering whether to bring up the measure this year.

It's unclear how many of the controversial bills might clear Congress and reach President Bush's desk. Still, political strategists argue that by bringing controversial issues to a vote, one party can broadly emphasize differences with the other on an issue such as abortion, and increase the determination of its own supporters to go to the polls.

For their part, Democrats maneuvered successfully last week for a Senate vote on raising the minimum wage. Sen. Harry Reid of Nevada, the party's leader, said Tuesday they would "do everything within our power to stop a congressional pay raise from going through this year, and we're going to tie it to minimum wage."

 

[FreeFaller]

"Countless men and women have died defending that flag," said Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., closing two days of debate. "It is but a small humble act for us to defend it."

Flat Wrong! Countless men and women have died defending what that flag stands for. The flag itself is nothing but cloth...it is the ideals that it represents wherein it holds it's value. As much as I despise seeing some jackoff burning one, I and many others serve to preserve the right to such actions. I am extremely happy that this bill did not pass.

 

[fossten]

Well, Johnny, (or should I call you Mr. Sanctimonious Hater) I guess it's okay to burn anything as long as you're dissenting from the government, right?

I will now proceed to go home and burn:

A gay rights flag
A Mexican flag
A Black Panther flag
An abortion clinic
A carton of cigarettes, preferably inside a grocery store or a restaurant
My trash
My property tax bill
My W-2 forms
Pictures of Mohammed
Pictures of Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, and Russ Feingold

I will then defend myself in criminal court by using the Flag-burning Defense. If the Supreme Court says you can burn the American Flag under the protection of free speech, then THAT'S what I'm doing, exercising Free Speech. I'm dissenting, damn it! Don't tread on me!

Of course, I still have to obey the McCain-Feingold laws about campaign finance.

Hey, anybody else notice how Feingold is on both sides of the free speech issue? Gee, no equanimity there, just blatant leftwingwackoism.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

"Countless men and women have died defending that flag," said Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., closing two days of debate. "It is but a small humble act for us to defend it."

Flat Wrong! Countless men and women have died defending what that flag stands for. The flag itself is nothing but cloth...it is the ideals that it represents wherein it holds it's value. As much as I despise seeing some jackoff burning one, I and many others serve to preserve the right to such actions. I am extremely happy that this bill did not pass.

I wholeheartedly :I :Beer

I will now proceed to go home and burn:

A gay rights flag <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
A Mexican flag <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
A Black Panther flag <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
An abortion clinic <- That would be arson, you would be arrested, and I'll laugh at you behind bars
A carton of cigarettes, preferably inside a grocery store or a restaurant <- Depending on your local ordinances, you might be arrested, otherwise feel free.
My trash <- Isn't that normal in Kentucky?
My property tax bill <- Go right ahead, but you'll still have to explain the debt to Uncle Sam
My W-2 forms <- Go right ahead, but you'll still have to explain the debt to Uncle Sam
Pictures of Mohammed <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
Pictures of Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, and Russ Feingold <- Symbols, I'll defend your right to do so

I will then defend myself in criminal court by using the Flag-burning Defense. If the Supreme Court says you can burn the American Flag under the protection of free speech, then THAT'S what I'm doing, exercising Free Speech. I'm dissenting, damn it! Don't tread on me! <- Good luck!

Just in case I get accused of mis-quoting someone, the text above in RED is mine, not fossten's.

 

[MAC1]

I’m glad the proposed flag burning amendment was defeated. I think it’s a total waste of time. I tend to believe most Americans are not offended by the American flag being burned, certainly if it’s a matter of political/free speech.

Yesterday, I was listening to a talk show on WABC radio in N.Y.C. and the host (Andrew Wilkow) equated burning the American flag with burning the gay pride flag because it offends a specific group of people—Americans. This is a ridiculous comparison in my opinion since burning the gay pride flag is directed towards a specific group of people unlike burning the American flag. As Americans, we make up all racial and cultural backgrounds, including gay people, and so there is clearly no comparison.

If someone burned the American flag at a gay pride parade the participants in and at the parade would likely wonder what that person’s problem is. However, if someone burned the gay pride flag at a gay pride parade then obviously it would draw attention. Also, burning the American flag is not a problem issue creating a danger to public safety. While I don’t like to see the American flag being burned, I’m certainly not going to get all bent out of shape if, for example, someone wishes to protest the Iraq war by burning the American flag. Bottom line, its legitimate political speech—It’s what The United States of America is all About—It’s part of what makes our county great.

Further, I certainly wouldn’t want the U.S. to be in the same group as China, Cuba, and Iran, which are among only four countries in the world that outlaw burning their national flag.

The host also insisted that cross burning is no different than burning the American flag. Wrong again, as burning a cross on someone’s front lawn is meant to intimidate and harass as specific group of people (Christians/Catholics). I think it’s safe to say there is an overwhelming consensus among Americans that cross burning constitutes a hate crime rather than free speech.

The host went on to say that it is insulting to think that those fighting for our country in Iraq may someday see the American flag being burned. My first thought was if I’m a soldier in Iraq and saw someone exercising his/her free speech rights by burning the American flag, I would think that’s exactly what this is all about.

Putting the American flag (a symbol of Freedom) in a place above the First Amendment is foolish. Flag burning can be dealt with by arson laws or other laws if necessary. Even then, however, I would still not want to see such laws be used to chill free speech by preventing flag burning as long as a reasonable person can conclude such act is part of legitimate political/free speech.

 

[biglou71]

I find it highly ironic that the only form of hate speach the left will defend is hate speach against thier own country. Any other form of hate speach gets no protections under the 1st amendment according to the left becasue it offends people. Well burning the American flag offends people too. And I would guess it offends more than 2% of the population (which is the current estimate of the percentage of homosexuals in America).

This, like Abortion, should be a states rights issue. But the pipe dream of the founding fathers of a weak Federal government went up in smoke in 1861.

 

[TheDude]

"Countless men and women have died defending that flag," said Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., closing two days of debate. "It is but a small humble act for us to defend it."

Flat Wrong! Countless men and women have died defending what that flag stands for. The flag itself is nothing but cloth...it is the ideals that it represents wherein it holds it's value. As much as I despise seeing some jackoff burning one, I and many others serve to preserve the right to such actions. I am extremely happy that this bill did not pass.

Bravo, I agree completely... I always thought, if you don't show emotion and give a sh!t about some fool burning a flag; then you deprive that fool of the power he or she might think the said flag burning may have.

Personally, I'd make a law that if you want to burn a flag you burn it in a location designated for 'burning', like a BBQ or fire pit, otherwise the fools should be jailed and fined just like anyone else if they burned something in the middle of the street.

 

[TheDude]

Originally Posted by fossten
I will now proceed to go home and burn:

A gay rights flag <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
A Mexican flag <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
A Black Panther flag <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
An abortion clinic <- That would be arson, you would be arrested, and I'll laugh at you behind bars
A carton of cigarettes, preferably inside a grocery store or a restaurant <- Depending on your local ordinances, you might be arrested, otherwise feel free.
My trash <- Isn't that normal in Kentucky?
My property tax bill <- Go right ahead, but you'll still have to explain the debt to Uncle Sam
My W-2 forms <- Go right ahead, but you'll still have to explain the debt to Uncle Sam
Pictures of Mohammed <- A symbol, I'll defend your right to do so
Pictures of Ted Kennedy, Hillary Clinton, Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, and Russ Feingold <- Symbols, I'll defend your right to do so

I will then defend myself in criminal court by using the Flag-burning Defense. If the Supreme Court says you can burn the American Flag under the protection of free speech, then THAT'S what I'm doing, exercising Free Speech. I'm dissenting, damn it! Don't tread on me! <- Good luck!


Just in case I get accused of mis-quoting someone, the text above in RED is mine, not fossten's.

Lol...

 

[stang99x]

I’m glad the proposed flag burning amendment was defeated. I think it’s a total waste of time. I tend to believe most Americans are not offended by the American flag being burned, certainly if it’s a matter of political/free speech.

Bravo, I agree completely... I always thought, if you don't show emotion and give a sh!t about some fool burning a flag; then you deprive that fool of the power he or she might think the said flag burning may have.

Personally, I'd make a law that if you want to burn a flag you burn it in a location designated for 'burning', like a BBQ or fire pit, otherwise the fools should be jailed and fined just like anyone else if they burned something in the middle of the street.

Flat Wrong! Countless men and women have died defending what that flag stands for. The flag itself is nothing but cloth...it is the ideals that it represents wherein it holds it's value. As much as I despise seeing some jackoff burning one, I and many others serve to preserve the right to such actions. I am extremely happy that this bill did not pass.
June 28th, 2006 03:17 PM

I say the following without the intent of personal attack nor do I wish to be banned, but it must be said.

You bunch of cocksucking bastards. All of the greatest men in our history would come up out of their graves and rip out your internals for such. You people are the reason this country is falling to pieces. You are a bunch of disrepectful pieces of chit and should be deported. Love it or leave it Mother F***ers. Burning that flag should be grounds for immediate loss of citizenship and incarceration. It isn't your right to burn the symbol of freedom, that hundreds of years of bloodshed have earned. You should be ashamed of yourselves and do us all a favor and hang yourselves. You don't deserve to be Americans. You stand for what we fight against. You are no better than the two bit cocksucking bastards in 3rd world countries that burn our flag. It is a downright shot through the heart of liberty. It is a slap in the face and you all deserve nothing less than living in a chithole like Yemen to learn what it really means to be a free american. If only we were still in the 50's or 60's, we'd take you aszholes in the back and beat you near death.:ban

 

[TheDude]

I say the following without the intent of personal attack nor do I wish to be banned, but it must be said.

You bunch of cocksucking bastards. All of the greatest men in our history would come up out of their graves and rip out your internals for such. You people are the reason this country is falling to pieces. You are a bunch of disrepectful pieces of chit and should be deported. Love it or leave it Mother F***ers. Burning that flag should be grounds for immediate loss of citizenship and incarceration. It isn't your right to burn the symbol of freedom, that hundreds of years of bloodshed have earned. You should be ashamed of yourselves and do us all a favor and hang yourselves. You don't deserve to be Americans. You stand for what we fight against. You are no better than the two bit cocksucking bastards in 3rd world countries that burn our flag. It is a downright shot through the heart of liberty. It is a slap in the face and you all deserve nothing less than living in a chithole like Yemen to learn what it really means to be a free american. If only we were still in the 50's or 60's, we'd take you aszholes in the back and beat you near death.:ban

Oh my my, for one you insult a service man or former service man (FreeFaller)... Two, grow up and realize a flag is just a piece of cloth, destroying it doesn't destroy what it stands for; life isn't a video game, you don't lose if your flag is captured or destroyed... And three, drop the 'olden glory' crap, the 50's & 60's had their own ass backwards problems, can you say Jim Crow and lack of women's rights just to name a couple...

Besides, aren't you in your 30's, were you even alive in the 50's? Not to mention, is being called a c@cksucker a compliment were you're from?

 

[fossten]

a flag is just a piece of cloth

Flag burning is for ignorant losers. Someone who would say that The Star-Spangled Banner is "just a flag" or "just a piece of cloth" shows his abject ignorance.

 

[MAC1]

I say the following without the intent of personal attack nor do I wish to be banned, but it must be said.

You bunch of cocksucking bastards. All of the greatest men in our history would come up out of their graves and rip out your internals for such. You people are the reason this country is falling to pieces. You are a bunch of disrepectful pieces of chit and should be deported. Love it or leave it Mother F***ers. Burning that flag should be grounds for immediate loss of citizenship and incarceration. It isn't your right to burn the symbol of freedom, that hundreds of years of bloodshed have earned. You should be ashamed of yourselves and do us all a favor and hang yourselves. You don't deserve to be Americans. You stand for what we fight against. You are no better than the two bit cocksucking bastards in 3rd world countries that burn our flag. It is a downright shot through the heart of liberty. It is a slap in the face and you all deserve nothing less than living in a chithole like Yemen to learn what it really means to be a free american. If only we were still in the 50's or 60's, we'd take you aszholes in the back and beat you near death.:ban

The first time flag burning became an issue was after the Civil War when politicians began to use the American flag in political campaigns. Still, Americans regarded nationalistic symbols as less important compared to what such symbols stand for. It is no wonder therefore that it has taken 225 years after ratification of the U.S. Constitution for Congress to even consider burning the American flag as an offense.

It’s misguided people like you that mock the Constitution by desecrating and attacking the First Amendment simply because you find something such as burning the American flag to be offensive. If you want to worship the flag then go right ahead. I suggest you hang one on a wall and kneel down before it.

As for me, I will continue to defer to the collective wisdom of millions of Americans before us, including the Founding Fathers who, abhorrent as it may be, did not find it necessary to outlaw burning the American flag. Instead, they saw fit to allowed such act to fall within the scope of protected speech under the Constitution.

At this juncture, I see no reason why over 200 years of American history and the most important principle upon which our Nation was founded should be diminished. The founders forewarned Americans to be vigilant against stealthily encroachment upon our liberty. They did not trust government—A good reason why is perhaps exemplified by the proposed flag burning amendment. What is next? So therefore, again, I choose to defer to history as guidance. We are not threatened, nor are the freedoms we cherish as Americans diminished or enlarged because the flag amendment was rebuked. And tomorrow I will still be an American—Thank God.

 

[biglou71]

Actually, It only became an issue recently because until 1989 each state could decide the issue for themselves. Then in 89, the Nine in Black decided that they knew better then the individual states and declared it unconstitutional to outlaw flag burning. Up until that time, some states outlawed it, others allowed it. Which, is the way our government was meant to be, and the way the Founding Fathers meant it to be. Each state decides what is best for its people.

What burning the flag has to do with Interstate commerce I have no idea, but obviously the supreme rulers of the court found some justification for it. If you actually read the constituiton, 95% of what the Federal government does is Unconstitutional. But they will never give back that power, nor will the people who are addicted to the handouts from said Federal government, take back the power.

 

[MonsterMark]

The amendment didn't pass because we have two ass-hat Democrats from Wisconsin that voted against it.

If I don't put on my seat belt, I'll get pulled over and given a ticket. But if i burn the flag out in the middle of the street, well, bravo for me, I'm exercising my right to free speech.

I find it laughable all the freedoms we have already surrendered but refuse to preserve a few traditions that have made this Country the greatest in the world.

I understand your position FreeFaller but I think defending all these 'free' rights only serves to embolden those in the Country that have no respect for the millions of people that have sacrificed before us to save our traditions and to keep us free. This only serves to continue our slide down the slippery slope to godlessness.

 

[biglou71]

Dont forget the two Socialists from IL voted against it too. But what do you expect from Dick Turbin and Osama Obama?

 

[TheDude]

Flag burning is for ignorant losers. Someone who would say that The Star-Spangled Banner is "just a flag" or "just a piece of cloth" shows his abject ignorance.

Yes, I agree flag burning is for ignorant losers, but for different reasons...

Yea, it's just a piece of cloth, destroying it won't destroy what it stands for; unless of course you're ignorant enough to let it do so.

 

[FreeFaller]

I say the following without the intent of personal attack nor do I wish to be banned, but it must be said.

You bunch of cocksucking bastards. All of the greatest men in our history would come up out of their graves and rip out your internals for such. You people are the reason this country is falling to pieces. You are a bunch of disrepectful pieces of chit and should be deported. Love it or leave it Mother F***ers. Burning that flag should be grounds for immediate loss of citizenship and incarceration. It isn't your right to burn the symbol of freedom, that hundreds of years of bloodshed have earned. You should be ashamed of yourselves and do us all a favor and hang yourselves. You don't deserve to be Americans. You stand for what we fight against. You are no better than the two bit cocksucking bastards in 3rd world countries that burn our flag. It is a downright shot through the heart of liberty. It is a slap in the face and you all deserve nothing less than living in a chithole like Yemen to learn what it really means to be a free american. If only we were still in the 50's or 60's, we'd take you aszholes in the back and beat you near death.:ban

You people really need to stop idolizing the wrong things.

Now, if you were to go to the Vietnam Memorial, take down the flag and proceed to burn that one...I hope I or someone else is there to beat the holy hell out of you. That one has meaning. I would gladly risk my life to retrieve the flag from a position being overran by the enemy. That one also has meaning.

What about the flag used at a Ku Klux Klan meeting...do you give that one the same reverence. What about the Confederate flag which to some holds the same meaning (states rights). Where do you draw the line. Is burning the constitution the same as burning a facsimile? If someone burns a $12.00 piece of nylon that they bought at Wal-Mart which ironically was made in Mexico...WHO GIVES A :q:q:q:q!!!

Everyone complains about being offended...yeah...that's the point. It's supposed to be an offensive display.

I have served my country for over a decade. I have been to many bad places that have flags. They are proud of their flags. They fight wars over their flags. Yet their flags mean nothing because their ideals mean nothing.

I serve my country because I am an American. Because I have nothing but the greatest respect and admiration for this land and I will continue to serve as long as is allowed in order to ensure that maybe just one more person will know what it means to be American. I have fought for that flag and what it stands for. I have bled for that flag and what it stands for. I have watched my friends die for that flag and what it stands for. I'll be damned if I'm going to let some douchebag who grew up in Martha's vineyard and never served tell me what I can and can't do with that flag.

 

[MonsterMark]

What about the flag used at a Ku Klux Klan meeting...do you give that one the same reverence. What about the Confederate flag which to some holds the same meaning (states rights). Where do you draw the line.

That is exactly my point. Why does everything have to have such a wide net of inclusion.

To me it is pretty simple. Go burn all the flags like you mentioned all you want. But the currently designed American flag is off limits here in the United States.


So why is it that when a flag is 'retired', one is supposed to burn it?

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."


I don't want to be a control freak. I just want to preserve a few of our traditions that made this country great for our kids and their kids.

 

[MAC1]

There has never been a tradition of not burning the flag. And it’s not like flag burning is something new. There have been laws respecting handling of the flag, which no one pays attention to. How many times have you seen flags flying after sundown? Frankly, I think it’s more offensive to fly a tattered, faded and/or ripped flag as opposed to someone who burns a flag out of political protest. At least there is some purpose behind burning the flag in protest whether or not it’s offensive. But someone who is too lazy to simply replace a tattered American flag has no business flying it. I mean, it’s not like the flag is a relic from The War of 1812.

 

[MonsterMark]

So why can't we set an example for the rest of the world and let them know that in the United States, we respect the flag and what it stands for? Do all the other crazy stuff you want, just leave the flag alone.

 

[fossten]

So let me ask an open question to all you libs. Johnny, Deville, all the rest of you, even Freefaller:

If you saw somebody burning the flag and you were the nearest person, would you do what Rick Monday did? Would you stop them? Why or why not?

 

[TheDude]

So let me ask an open question to all you libs. Johnny, Deville, all the rest of you, even Freefaller:

If you saw somebody burning the flag and you were the nearest person, would you do what Rick Monday did? Would you stop them? Why or why not?

If they were burning it somewhere safe, I wouldn't stop them, as ignorant and petty as I think it is, they have the right to do so. If they were burning it on the sidewalk or somewhere unsafe, I'd put out the fire and say "@sshole, find a fire-safe spot to dissent."

 

[fossten]

If they were burning it somewhere safe, I wouldn't stop them, as ignorant and petty as I think it is, they have the right to do so. If they were burning it on the sidewalk or somewhere unsafe, I'd put out the fire and say "@sshole, find a fire-safe spot to dissent."

What a pacifistic p*ssy. You don't even realize that you also have the right to exercise free speech and PROTECT the flag? Sheesh, I know all I ever need to know about you. You're such a chickensh!t that you'd probably not even stand up for your wife if some guy started raping her on the sidewalk. You'd be like, "Hey, can you take her to a hotel where it's safer?"

 

[TheDude]

What a pacifistic p*ssy. You don't even realize that you also have the right to exercise free speech and PROTECT the flag? Sheesh, I know all I ever need to know about you. You're such a chickensh!t that you'd probably not even stand up for your wife if some guy started raping her on the sidewalk. You'd be like, "Hey, can you take her to a hotel where it's safer?"

Sorry, did you say something worth listening too? All heard was "Waaaaa...Waaaaa...Waaaaa [stomp little feet] Waaaaa... Waaaaa... [stomp little feet] Waaaaa..."

That person HAS the right to burn a flag, simple as that and you need to learn to deal with it. Duh. It'd be different if they went into my house, stole my flag and tried to burn my personal property. As typical, you resort to childish and moronic insults when something doesn't go your way. Grow up Mr. Intellectual Honesty.

 

[Calabrio]

I just wish they'd pass a law that made it legal to beat the :q:q:q:q out of someone burning a flag. That would make things a lot easier.