GOP Vote Declines Less Than NYT

You have the liberty to marry the person that you love, Calabrio.
Provided that the person is of the opposite gender.
Is the appropriate age.
Not a close relative.
And there are a few other thresh holds, depending on the state, including the same species... no pets or animals.

Same goes for me or anyone else, regardless of their sexual orientation.
 
I'm reminded of Henry Ford's famous, "any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."
 
Sorry, you're wrong. The Canadian press is even more liberal and biased than the American one. The CBC considers Michael Moore to be a real documentary maker.

yes, i know, only trusted republican propagandist sources for you, instead of an open viewpoint. do you know how paranoid that sounds?
i watch and read news from all over the world,(and there is more than 1 canadian channel) not just from a narrow margin of "trusted" news sources who will tell me only what i need to know. i don't search for liberal news, and i don't search for conservative news. and i don't even bother with american news anymore, as the few things that are worth knowing can be found in world news.

but then you are free to say what you like.
 
yes, i know, only trusted republican propagandist sources for you, instead of an open viewpoint. do you know how paranoid that sounds?
I know exactly how paranoid that sounds, because YOU are the one making the comment, I haven't.


I don't search for liberal news, and i don't search for conservative news. and i don't even bother with american news anymore, as the few things that are worth knowing can be found in world news.
You don't need to "search" for news skewed with the a leftist viewpoint because that is the norm. That's the culture of the media. It would take a concerted effort if you were genuinely interested in finding some balance in your reporting.

but then you are free to say what you like.
That is true.. until they start passing "hate speech" legislation in this country.
 
But that's exactly what YOUR side isn't doing. The left is trying to get the government to sanction gay marriage. That IS government interference.

And the RIGHT is trying to get the government to BAN gay marriage by redefining it to fit their narrow vision. THAT is government interferrence.
 
My side? I don't condone government sponsored marriages at all - remember Foss - I follow Ron Paul down the keep religion and state really separate road... Civil unions only from the government - Marriages performed by the church of your choice...

What if you don't want to get married in a church ?
You just want judge to do a quickie at the courthouse before you sober up?
I don't think you can just cut government out of Civil unions.
 
Ah, mr Nut, I want the government to ONLY be involved in civil unions - get the state out of the 'marriage' business entirely...

And, hey, how do you know about those quickies with the judge???;)
 
Ah, mr Nut, I want the government to ONLY be involved in civil unions - get the state out of the 'marriage' business entirely...

And, hey, how do you know about those quickies with the judge???;)

Ops my bad :p
I misread your post.
Plus I know how obtuse you are...or is that me ? :shifty:
 
Just think how much obtuse fun we could have - much better than the old 'acute angle' fun the right has...;)
 
...if you want to remove marriage entirely from the public realm, fine.
But if you genuinely support such a thing, then you can't work to expand the definition in the mean time.

You cant work on both simultaneously.

You're either in favor of the redefinition of marriage to include homosexuals, or you think that government should be 100% disinvested from marriage. Can't do both.
 
Sweetheart - relax...

I never said I was for gay marriage - ever.

I may have stated I understand why gays want it - but, I never said I was for it...
 
And the RIGHT is trying to get the government to BAN gay marriage by redefining it to fit their narrow vision. THAT is government interferrence.

What a profoundly stupid statement.
The right isn't doing precisely the opposite. They are preventing activists on the left from redefining it.

Was marriage extended to homosexuals at any other point in our history? Of course not. Marriage is the union of a man and woman. It must be redefined in order to include people of the same gender.
 
It must be redefined in order to include people of the same gender.

there is no re-definition. the word has been used many times to refer to the combining of things. i've heard many sayings.

marriage of old and new.
a marriage of flavours.
etc.

it hinges on whether the traditional(church) definition of the word is the only acceptable definition. the joining of man and woman is only 1 definition, and is not the only definition.

to define it as only a man/woman union, then you would have to remove it from the english language as a form of expression meaning to combine. after all, you would give it only 1 possible definition.
 
there is no re-definition. the word has been used many times to refer to the combining of things. i've heard many sayings.

marriage of old and new.
a marriage of flavours.
etc.

it hinges on whether the traditional(church) definition of the word is the only acceptable definition. the joining of man and woman is only 1 definition, and is not the only definition.

to define it as only a man/woman union, then you would have to remove it from the english language as a form of expression meaning to combine. after all, you would give it only 1 possible definition.

In any debate, you have to have a single, set definition. You cannot allow multiple definitions, because then you are not arguing the same thing and a reasonable discussion is impossible.

The definition in question is the traditional definition. That is what society supports and has supported throughout history. It covers the purpose of marriage in regards to children and procreation, which is the purpose of that social institution. Any other definition is inappropriate to this discussion and nothing more then misdirection and obfuscation, which is clearly what you are trying to do.

The fact is, what the activist gay community is doing is working to redefine marriage.
 
However, the idea of one man/one woman isn't all that marriage has traditionally stood for. One man/many women was certainly condoned in many cultures, and they were all 'married.' Depending on where you look, the one man/many women idea could be older, and perhaps should be the 'traditional' form of marriage. Judeo belief was certainly one/one, but the civilizations that proceeded it had a much different viewpoint of marriage... Much older civilizations. Maybe we have already redefined marriage, certainly not away from man/woman, but from man/women. Redefinition is a fact of life, as societies move, grow, change. The strongest/richest/most powerful man now doesn't need to have the most women, and therefore propagate the strongest/most children, that idea has changed, has been redefined.
 
However, the idea of one man/one woman isn't all that marriage has traditionally stood for. One man/many women was certainly condoned in many cultures, and they were all 'married.' Depending on where you look, the one man/many women idea could be older, and perhaps should be the 'traditional' form of marriage. Judeo belief was certainly one/one, but the civilizations that proceeded it had a much different viewpoint of marriage... Much older civilizations. Maybe we have already redefined marriage, certainly not away from man/woman, but from man/women. Redefinition is a fact of life, as societies move, grow, change. The strongest/richest/most powerful man now doesn't need to have the most women, and therefore propagate the strongest/most children, that idea has changed, has been redefined.

We are talking what this country has traditionally understood marriage to mean. Talk of other cultures is irrelevant.

And as for change...
There is a procedure in the constitution for change. It's called an Amendment.
 
The definition in question is the traditional definition. That is what society supports and has supported throughout history. It covers the purpose of marriage in regards to children and procreation, which is the purpose of that social institution. Any other definition is inappropriate to this discussion and nothing more then misdirection and obfuscation, which is clearly what you are trying to do.


Shag - your quote, not mine - just pointing out that historically it hasn't always been as you stated, and that 'society' isn't always 'western'.

edit add...

Oh, and procreation may have depended on one/many to make sure the strongest, along with a 'lineage' was past down to the next generation...
 
Shag - your quote, not mine - just pointing out that historically it hasn't always been as you stated, and that 'society' isn't always 'western'.

We are talking about marriage here in American. The only culture that determines the definition is the American culture. That has historically supported the traditional definition of marriage and currently does as well...

Oh, and procreation may have depended on one/many to make sure the strongest, along with a 'lineage' was past down to the next generation...

It isn't just procreation, it is child rearing as well. Two parents, two sets of grandparents and the support system that all entails.
 
We are talking about marriage here in American. The only culture that determines the definition is the American culture. That has historically supported the traditional definition of marriage and currently does as well...
Ahhh, American history - the only history that counts - got it... ;) Just wanted clarification...

It isn't just procreation, it is child rearing as well. Two parents, two sets of grandparents and the support system that all entails.

How does the modern concept of divorce/remarriage fit into that equation?
 
How does the modern concept of divorce/remarriage fit into that equation?

It is irrelevant to the traditional definition of marriage and only a red herring in discussing that definition. Besides, the black community, that upwards of 70% illegitimacy rates, still overwhelmingly supports the traditional definition of gay marriage.
 
What a profoundly stupid statement.
The right isn't doing precisely the opposite. They are preventing activists on the left from redefining it.

Was marriage extended to homosexuals at any other point in our history? Of course not. Marriage is the union of a man and woman. It must be redefined in order to include people of the same gender.

The right has, and continues to push the Marriage Protection Act, which serves to change the legal definition of marriage as a union between a man and woman. If the law already excluded same-sex couples from marriage, then what was the need for the MPA?
 
It is irrelevant to the traditional definition of marriage and only a red herring in discussing that definition. Besides, the black community, that upwards of 70% illegitimacy rates, still overwhelmingly supports the traditional definition of gay marriage.
No, you brought it up - not a red herring. If you are using 'rearing of children' and 'traditional procreation' then you need to address 'current' definition of many parents/many grandparents in your marriage equation. We have redefined how marriage is viewed, just with the overwhelming acceptance of divorce. It is no longer - forever and ever, til death do we part. It is 'until something better comes along.' Society has redefined marriage already, here, in the United States, and pretty much everywhere...

Remember I want government out of the 'marriage' business - it is much easier to redefine civil law than some sort of wormy 'religious/societal/fear monger/end of the world as we know it' rule.
 
If the law already excluded same-sex couples from marriage, then what was the need for the MPA?
Because in some states, the language didn't specifically mention genders. Clearly, this wasn't the result of a tolerance for homosexual marriage, it was simply taken for granted. Aggressive lawyers and activist judges started reinterpreting the law, so states are just plugging the loop holes.
 
No, you brought it up - not a red herring. If you are using 'rearing of children' and 'traditional procreation' then you need to address 'current' definition of many parents/many grandparents in your marriage equation. We have redefined how marriage is viewed, just with the overwhelming acceptance of divorce. It is no longer - forever and ever, til death do we part. It is 'until something better comes along.' Society has redefined marriage already, here, in the United States, and pretty much everywhere...

The "acceptance of divorce" says nothing about how society views marriage with regards to children. It only says how easy it is for a divorce and how permenant they view marriage as.

Frank Turek writes:
No-fault divorce laws began in one state, California, and then spread to rest of the country. Those liberalized divorce laws helped change our attitudes and behaviors about the permanence of marriage. There’s no question that liberalized marriage laws will help change our attitudes and behaviors about the purpose of marriage...

...Contrary to what homosexual activists assume, the state doesn’t endorse marriage because people have feelings for one another. The state endorses marriage primarily because of what marriage does for children and in turn society. Society gets no benefit by redefining marriage to include homosexual relationships, only harm as the connection to illegitimacy shows. But the very future of children and a civilized society depends on stable marriages between men and women. That’s why, regardless of what you think about homosexuality, the two types of relationships should never be legally equated.​

Attitudes toward marriage have changed some, but clearly, the vast majority of society still defines marriage as between a man and a woman and it is still tied to the idea of procreation and child rearing. That was the reason marriage was created in the first place. As David Blankenhorn writes:
Marriage as a human institution is constantly evolving, and many of its features vary across groups and cultures. But there is one constant. In all societies, marriage shapes the rights and obligations of parenthood. Among us humans, the scholars report, marriage is not primarily a license to have sex. Nor is it primarily a license to receive benefits or social recognition. It is primarily a license to have children...

...Marriage (and only marriage) unites the three core dimensions of parenthood -- biological, social and legal -- into one pro-child form: the married couple. Marriage says to a child: The man and the woman whose sexual union made you will also be there to love and raise you. Marriage says to society as a whole: For every child born, there is a recognized mother and a father, accountable to the child and to each other.​
Studies have confirmed in areas where gay marriage is allowed and supported, the views of and attitudes toward marriage are different, and marriage is divorced from the idea of pro-creation and child rearing. In fact, Blankenhorn cites the ISSP survey in this article.
 
Because in some states, the language didn't specifically mention genders. Clearly, this wasn't the result of a tolerance for homosexual marriage, it was simply taken for granted. Aggressive lawyers and activist judges started reinterpreting the law, so states are just plugging the loop holes.

so, gays aren't trying to REDEFINE the word,(as the definition isn't implicit everywhere) the anti-gay side is trying to NARROW the definition to suit their arguement of understanding. being stated and implied are 2 very different things. and how do you know it was simply taken for granted? maybe they invisioned polygamy and left it open?
 

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