Right on the Mark
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See how peeps can take what you write in posts totally not what how you meant? LOL Easy to misconstrude comments.
Help - Mass airflow sensor/airfilter/throttle body
- Thread starter Ringmaster
- Start date
joegr
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I think so.
BTW, my opinion (having tried both) is that the gen II LS's are much better overall than the gen I. I haven't found the ETC to be a problem at all. Also, remember that TC can be turned off.
[Note for those with Advancetrac. To turn of traction control, you have to hold the Advancetrac-off switch down for several seconds.]
The ETC is a much smoother way to limit power (either due to TC or the rev limiter) than the gen I's cutting of timing and fuel.
That said, it is just my opinion, and I know that some will disagree.
Right on the Mark
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Just letting you know I buy on a complete budget. I got my gen 1 for 1500 bucks and my mk8 for 439 dollars. LOL I wish someday to upgrade the wives gen 1 to a gen 2 with all the bells and whistels plus the advance trac I heard its like driving a tank in snow. But I see peeps having problems with advance trac and electronic parking brake and ETC and heated cooled seats all Gen 2 stuff. So made me leary but peeps state alot of problems with gen 1 and I bought one of those anyway. I have a hard time finding a mint Gen2 with dead motor and being only a V6 buyer limits look even more. No want V8 timing chain problems and wife no need V8. We have only had the LS for 500 mile so far sence i put brand new motor in V6. Peep peep lol
Ringmaster
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I did ask for the part back but was told there would be a $35 core charge. At that point I told them to keep it.
is that just the gen 2's that you have to hold advancetrac off to prevent wheel spin?
not sure smoothness matters when cutting power, whatever works faster so that traction can be regained.
IMO, VVT is the only mechanical thing better in a gen 2.
JWerner2
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+1 Why would you need it to be smoother?
Ummm, all I do in my Gen 1 is push the traction button and its off.
???????
Same goes for most vehicles I have been in that have something of the sort.
joegr
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Gen I or II, if all you have is Traction control, then yes just push the TC off button to turn off traction control. (Spinning tire symbol on button)
Gen I or II, if you have Advancetrac, then it works differently. Press the Advanctrac button once to turn Advancetrac off, but Traction Control will stay on. Press and hold the Advancetrac off button for a few seconds to turn traction control off.
You do understand that Advancetrac and Traction Control are two different things?
Traction Control keeps the rear wheels from spinning (much).
All LS's have at least Traction Control.
Advancetrac works very hard to keep the car moving in the direction that you are steering it in. It uses the brakes on all four wheels, not just the rear ones.
Advancetrac is an option that some LS's have.
JWerner2
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Confusing.
I know lots of companies call this all by different names, I was just thinking ( without reading the manual ) that everyone was talking about the same thing just using different names.
So, pushing the button shuts off one. Then pressing it a second time and holding the button down shuts off both?
BTW, I realize how that post sounded now. I was asking a honest question. I was actually confused.
I know lots of companies call this all by different names, I was just thinking ( without reading the manual ) that everyone was talking about the same thing just using different names.
So, pushing the button shuts off one. Then pressing it a second time and holding the button down shuts off both?
BTW, I realize how that post sounded now. I was asking a honest question. I was actually confused.
VA_04LS_V8
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Did you ever figure out how so much H2O was getting into your engine compartment?
Must not be a common LS issue otherwise everyone with after market 'open air filters' would be suffering with similar issues.
Must not be a common LS issue otherwise everyone with after market 'open air filters' would be suffering with similar issues.
joegr
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That's okay. I didn't/don't intend any offense either. I had a feeling that might be were the confusion was. I wanted to find something describing the differences between just traction control and Advance Trac, but I couldn't. Instead, below is a description of Advance Trac.
Principles of Operation
Anti-Lock Brake System (ABS)
The anti-lock brake control module manages anti-lock braking, while the anti-lock brake control module with stability assist manages anti-lock braking, traction control and engine control systems to maintain vehicle control during deceleration and acceleration.
When the ignition switch is in the RUN position, the module will do a preliminary electrical check, and at approximately 20 km/h (12 mph), the hydraulic pump motor is turned on for approximately 1/2-second. Any malfunction of the anti-lock brake control system will disable the stability assist and the anti-lock brake warning indicator will illuminate. However, the power-assist braking system will function normally.
Electronic Brake Distribution (EBD)
The electronic brake distribution (EBD) controls rear brake pressure and acts as an electronic proportioning valve. It is controlled by the anti-lock brake system (ABS) module. When EBD is disabled, the amber ABS and the red brake warning indicators will illuminate.
Panic Assist Braking (ABS With Traction Control)
Panic assist braking functions by fully applying the brakes during a panic stop, using a specially developed pressure/pedal movement mechanism. Depending on vehicle speed, if pedal stroke is more rapid than normal, the brake booster automatically applies full brake boost. Panic assist will be disabled when the driver releases the brake pedal.
Panic Assist Braking (ABS With Stability Control)
Panic assist braking functions by fully applying the brakes during a panic stop, using the active brake booster. The ABS module continuously monitors the pedal travel sensor and when a pedal stroke is more rapid than normal, the ABS module will energize the solenoid in the brake booster to apply full brake boost. Panic assist will be disabled when the driver releases the brake pedal.
Stability Assist
With the ignition in the START or RUN positions, the stability assist module functions similarly to a conventional anti-lock brake module by monitoring and comparing the rotational speed of each wheel. Wheel speeds are measured by the wheel speed sensor which electrically senses each tooth of the anti-lock sensor ring as they pass through the sensor's magnetic field. When the stability assist module detects an impending wheel lock, wheel spin or vehicle motion that is inconsistent with the driver commands, brake pressure is modulated to the appropriate brake caliper(s). The stability assist module triggers the hydraulic control unit (HCU) to open and close the appropriate solenoid valves. Once the affected wheel(s) return to the desired speed, the stability assist module returns the solenoid valves to their normal position, and normal base brake operation is restored.
The ABS module communicates with the powertrain control module (PCM) to assist with traction control. At speeds under 100 km/h (62 mph), when the drive wheels lose traction and begin to spin, the stability assist module requests the PCM to reduce engine torque while simultaneously applying and releasing the appropriate brake caliper(s) to maintain traction. The PCM accomplishes this by minor incremental timing changes and fewer fuel injector pulses until the stability assist module ends the request. The request ends when the driven wheel speed returns to the desired speed. After the vehicle speed exceeds 100 km/h (62 mph), the traction control is accomplished only through the PCM torque control.
The stability assist system constantly monitors vehicle motion relative to the driver's intended course. This is done by using sensors to compare the driver's steering input and brake application with that of the actual vehicle motion. The system does not activate when the vehicle is traveling in reverse; however, ABS and traction control will continue to function as usual.
The stability assist control switch allows the driver to control use of the stability assist system. This is independent of the ABS function, which cannot be switched off by the driver. The stability assist system status is indicated by a stability assist warning lamp in the stability assist/traction control switch. An illuminated stability assist/traction control switch indicates that the stability assist system is switched off. In vehicles with a message center, the message AdvTrac OFF, T/C ON is displayed. The anti-lock brake function continues to work as designed unless the yellow anti-lock brake warning indicator is also illuminated. Normal braking function always occurs, unless the red brake warning indicator is illuminated.
When stability assist activates, any of the following can occur:
* A rumble or grinding sound much like ABS or traction control
* A small deceleration or a reduction in the acceleration of the vehicle
* The stability assist indicator will flash
* If the driver's foot is on the brake pedal, a vibration will be felt in the pedal much like ABS
* If the event is severe and the driver's foot is not on the brake, the brake pedal will move to apply higher brake forces. A whooshing sound can also be heard from under the instrument panel in an event this severe.
Some drivers may notice a slight movement of the brake pedal when the system checks itself. The brake pedal moves when an active test of the brake booster is run. During this test a small amount of pressure will be generated at the master cylinder, but no pressure will be generated in the brake calipers.
Sensor Cluster (ABS With Stability Assist)
The sensor cluster (also called the yaw rate sensor) consists of the longitudinal and lateral accelerometer. The lateral accelerometer measures the acceleration which corresponds to the force involved when the vehicle slides sideways. This acceleration has 2 forms. The first is the centrifugal acceleration which is generated when the vehicle travels around in a circle. The second is the acceleration due to gravity. On level ground there is no contribution from this acceleration. However, if the vehicle is parked sideways on a bank or incline, the sensor will measure some lateral acceleration due to gravity even though the vehicle is not moving.
The yaw rate sensor measures the relative vehicle motion about the vertical axis through its center of gravity.
Steering Wheel Rotation Sensor (ABS With Stability Assist)
The steering wheel rotation sensor measures the rate of rotation of the steering wheel by monitoring the steering wheel rotation ring as it passes through the sensor gap. The steering wheel rotation sensor uses 2 signal lines to transmit information to the stability assist module, whether the steering wheel is being turned left or right and how far it is being turned. The steering wheel rotation sensor does not indicate the position of the steering wheel relative to straight-ahead. The stability assist system learns this position by comparing the steering wheel position with other signals and storing the position it has learned. The stability assist system confirms this position and modifies it as necessary during every new driving cycle.
Active Brake Booster (ABS With Stability Assist)
The active brake booster functions like a conventional brake booster with the added feature that it can be actuated electrically by the stability assist module. The electrical brake booster actuation is necessary during panic assist and severe stability assist events. During severe stability assist events, an electrical actuator of the booster ensures that the hydraulic control unit (HCU) can generate enough brake pressure to maintain vehicle stability. The brake assist from the brake booster is especially useful in cold weather when the hydraulic control unit cannot draw the brake fluid from the reservoir quickly at cold temperatures.
A solenoid within the active brake booster has a brake pedal force switch to indicate when the driver is stepping on the brake pedal. The solenoid provides electrical actuation of the brake booster. Without the force of the input rod, the air valve is directly opened due to the movement of the energized solenoid. With increasing current applied to the solenoid, the air valve opens and output force is created. With decreasing current applied to the solenoid, the air valve is closed and the vacuum valve opens, reducing output force. The brake pedal force switch indicates when the brake pedal has been applied. It is integrated into the booster key that normally sits against the rear shell of the boot in its rest position and it adjoins the valve body when in its balance position. The brake pedal force switch provides indication from 2 positions. In its rest position, it supplies 2 signals, normally open and normally closed. Upon application of sufficient force to initiate movement of the key away from the valve body, the brake pedal force switch changes state, signifying a driver application.
When the stability assist module is activating the brake booster, the brake pedal is pulled forward as the valve body moves. The brake pedal release switch is held in position by the input rod spring and remains against the valve body. Although the brake pedal position (BPP) switch changes state when the brake pedal drops, the brake pedal force switch remains inactive until it encounters an external force from the driver or a stability assist event controlled by the stability assist module.
Modules which are normally connected to the BPP switch are connected to a signal from the ABS module. This signal only changes state when the driver has applied the brake. If the ignition switch is in the RUN position, the brake booster is not electrically actuated, and no failure has been detected, the driver brake application signal will indicate a brake applied when the brake pedal force switch built into the brake booster indicates that the driver has applied the brake pedal. If the ignition switch is in the OFF position, the driver brake application signal will indicate a brake apply only when the BPP switch indicates that the driver is applying the brake pedal. When the ignition switch is in the OFF position, failures cannot be detected. If there are failures, several layers of redundancy try to keep the driver brake application signal accurate. If the ABS module system detects faults on the driver brake application signal line it will also attempt to maintain correct stoplamp operation by communicating on the standard corporate protocol (SCP) network. Control of the stoplamp operation is also required because the BPP switch can change states during an ABS module event when the driver is not applying the brake pedal. The BPP switch can also change states during the system check of the brake booster. Only the ABS module system can interpret these changes and determine which ones are actually due to the driver applying the brake. Similarly, the ABS module system can take advantage of its other sensors to detect failures in the BPP switch.
joegr
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That would be my bet too.
joegr
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joegr, please tell me you cut and pasted that from somewhere. I just know you didn't type that whole thing out.
Good information though, thanks!
Cut and paste from 2006 LS service manual.
Ringmaster
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I think the whole service advisor story was a line of crap. He finally called back today after I called him on the fact the old filter was as dry as a bone. Today he says the tech told him there was moister in the air filter box so he took that to mean it was "soaked" so that's what he told both my wife and me. He offered to put my old filter back in and refund me $50. Still leaves me with a bill for $450 to replace the MAS which at this point I'm wondering if that was really bad. I wish my wife had of just turned off the engine for a minute and restarted it to see if that cleared the problem before going to the dealer. But it was 10 degrees out and she was afraid that if she turned it off it may not restart leaving her stranded. I don't blame her.
JWerner2
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I would raise hell! There is now way a any MAF sensor for any vehicle could cost that much and to have it installed takes literally around 2 minutes.
Ehhh, live and learn I guess. I dont know what you could honestly do to get a refund at this point but I would still give them sh*t for screwing you.
I like the idea of picking the mechanic that serviced the vehicle up and ditching him miles away!
Then pay a few bums to take his shoes.
Ehhh, live and learn I guess. I dont know what you could honestly do to get a refund at this point but I would still give them sh*t for screwing you.
I like the idea of picking the mechanic that serviced the vehicle up and ditching him miles away!
Then pay a few bums to take his shoes.
Ringmaster
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<<<<<I would raise hell! There is now way a any MAF sensor for any vehicle could cost that much and to have it installed takes literally around 2 minutes.>>>>>>>
As I stated above the bill reads. $100 to diagnose the problem. (We all know the people at any auto parts store spend 12 seconds doing this to get the code) $269 for the MAS. $100 labor to put it in. 2 screws on top of the air tube. What a racket.
As I stated above the bill reads. $100 to diagnose the problem. (We all know the people at any auto parts store spend 12 seconds doing this to get the code) $269 for the MAS. $100 labor to put it in. 2 screws on top of the air tube. What a racket.
JWerner2
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Go in and kick some ass man! There is now way that MAF should have cost that much! I can see 75$ a hour for labor and charging you that as a minimum cost but most decent places since its such a easy task write that off and dont charge you.
Thats nuts. I would go back and try to do something about that.
Thats nuts. I would go back and try to do something about that.
Ringmaster
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Well the labor will wind up at $75 tomorrow since the service advisor admitted that he overstated the wetness of the air filter that they replaced. So they are putting my filter back in and refunding me fifty bucks. Twenty five for the filter and the $25 labor they charged to put it in. I don't know where you live but labor rates in Maryland usually run $85-$95 hr. I've been trying to find Ford's list price on the mass airflow sensor and can't seem to find it on the internet. I have found discounted prices of $150. I expect to pay list when a dealer is doing the work. What I don't expect however is to pay more than list. BTW, for the most part I quit taking both the LSs we own to the dealer for service after the warranty was up. When I had the bad valve cover gasket problem and took the 02 to the Lincoln dealer we bought the car from their service advisor told me my steering rack was leaking and causing the smoke in front of the windshield. I asked how steering fluid could defy gravity and drip up hill onto the exhaust manafold. He didn't have an answer. He only wanted to replace the rack and pinion for $750. What's funny is that when he walked away the mechanic told me that I had the valve cover gasket problem but "don't tell anybody I told you" Pretty sad. I'd love to know what my situation would have been if I had told them to replace the steering and still had the smoke in front of the windshield. I assume they could just say well your steering was bad too. That was 50,000 miles ago and that same steering still works fine.
Ringmaster
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Checked with 3 dealers parts departments this morning and all 3 said the retail price or list price from Ford for the MAS is $215 and change. So for Apple Ford to overcharge me by 25% ($269) really pisses me off. Don't get me wrong. If I take a car anywhere for service I don't expect a discount on parts but what I also don't expect is to be charged more than list price. Hell, they are already making a fortune on labor and let us not forget the always present "shop supplies" rip.
Ringmaster
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Here's the conclusion. Went to the dealer today. Service tech refund $50 for the air filter and install labor since it wasn't "soaked" as he claimed. Then I met with service manager and politely explained my position on parts prices. I told him if I bring my car into his store for service I expect to pay full margin for parts but not 25% above list price. He refunded $57 of the max airflow sensor price. He wanted to argue that they charge more than list because if you come back with a defective part that they would replace it (labor) under warranty. I countered that with you charging me 25% more in the first place how's that a warranty. He couldn't answer that. Plus I added that if I don't have a problem with the part then I just overpaid by 25%. What a joke.