I know, i meant "normal" meaning GM's 3.8 V6. No comments on the video anyone? That sh!t is badass. Thats killing a 11 sec. Viper. Maybe its me, but i like the sound of a turbo spooling vs. a V8's growl. Sounds like a freakin jet plane. I will own another before i die, unfortunately i am going to pay out the ass for it nowadays. 80's technology that'll still smoke most cars today. Talk about a sleeper.87 Buick said:
Lincoln becomes the new Acura; Ford nixes V8 for MKS
- Thread starter captainalias
- Start date
clearly you've never driven a turbo. A correctly turbocharged car at cruising (say 2K rpms) will BLOW AWAY the torque out of your v8. That means strong pull without downshifting. Turbo motors can create full torque usually as low as 1300-1500 rpms. IF using small turbos in a TT application the spooling can be almost undetectible.chocolat1701 said:
captainalias
Dedicated LVC Member
Fla02LS said:
haha, please don't screw it up Ford.
And maybe it will beat a V-8 AND get 35 mpg.
yeah I think one of the biggest misconceptions about turbo cars is that they need to rev high to do anything. it's really just the opposite. back when I was a kid I won MANY races on the highway w/my talon never leaving 5th gear.
segxr7
Active LVC Member
I used to own an '88 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe. It had a 2.3l 4-cyl, rated at 190hp and 240tq at 15 psi. I currently own a '95 Lincoln Mark VIII, with has a 4.6l V8 putting out 280hp and 285tq. The T-Bird was MUCH stronger off the line. It would have no problem getting the jump from 0-30 or so. But past 45 mph, the Lincoln would absolutely smoke it. Certainly not what you'd expect.
That said, I still think a V8 is superior to a turbo V6 for a big American luxury car. Turbocharged engines do make a lot of low-end torque, but there's no getting around the fact that it's not available the instant you blip the throttle when the engine is idling. When someone who doesn't understand turbos goes to pull out into fast-moving traffic, they'll get on the gas and freak out because not much happens. So they get on it harder, only to end up pinned to the seat when the turbo spools up and suddenly adds another 100 horsepower.
That's part of the fun if you know what to expect. But the type of person buying a large Lincoln sedan would probably just take it to the dealer and freak out about things like the car losing power off idle, taking off on its own, being hard to drive smoothly, makes a funny whistling noise, etc., and end up trading it in on a Cadillac.
That said, I still think a V8 is superior to a turbo V6 for a big American luxury car. Turbocharged engines do make a lot of low-end torque, but there's no getting around the fact that it's not available the instant you blip the throttle when the engine is idling. When someone who doesn't understand turbos goes to pull out into fast-moving traffic, they'll get on the gas and freak out because not much happens. So they get on it harder, only to end up pinned to the seat when the turbo spools up and suddenly adds another 100 horsepower.
That's part of the fun if you know what to expect. But the type of person buying a large Lincoln sedan would probably just take it to the dealer and freak out about things like the car losing power off idle, taking off on its own, being hard to drive smoothly, makes a funny whistling noise, etc., and end up trading it in on a Cadillac.
ok so you just compared an 18 year old 4 cyl (heavy) turbo to a 11 year old v8. not a great comparison. remember that 4 banger 2.3 had ZERO HP (88HP IIRC) in non-turbo form. A strong v6 coupled with twin turbos is MUCH differnt than your old turbocoupe. times have changed....
TheRebel
Dedicated LVC Member
Fla02LS is right about the Grand Nationals being badass. I got a mechanic friend who just bought a new engine and turbo for his drag car. It looked like a a go cart engine, but the damn thing dynoed at upper 800hp. Thats crazy and he can still drive it down the street and not have any of the problems of a camed and carbed up V8. However I still like the idea of a V8 (the only thing American about cars now days even if it is made in Japan), but screw the 4.4. I think a big ol luxury car should have atleast 400 cid, Yeah like Ford or any of us would go for that. Maybe the 5.4 out of the Shelby or a twin turbo V8!! OK I'm just being stupid now.
Yes.....I own a 2006 Maxima 3.5 SL and it is faster than my LS was.......that is based on numbers alone. I loved my Lincoln......and i love my Maxima. The problem I am seeing on this forum and people's understanding of Ford's rationale for making their decisions is that unfortunately, they are uneducated.Fla02LS said:
When Ford produces a car that can compete with a honda or toyota in terms of reliability....then maybe you will see them producing cars with V8's in them......and even then, maybe you wont. If you want to drive a V8 Lincoln, I suggest keeping it and spending your money on maintaining it. Otherwise, I don't think Ford is going to care too much about losing a few people on a Lincoln forum who wont ever buy a car from them unless they offer a V8.
The majority of people really don't care what size an engine a car has in it. Some do......but most don't. If you don't believe me, sell cars and then find out for yourself. Automakers.....like any other business/corporation........has the goal to maximize profit for their shareholders. They can't do that by producing limited line products. It's economics. If supply doesn't meet demand (for whatever reason), they cut supply back in order to save money which is where you see the automakers heading. As I said before, the majority of people in America don't care about a V8.......however, I am sure the majority of people on here will disagree.
The news today had a story on Ford and how its making more cuts and closing its plants. The Canadian guy who says that his plant is making both GM and Ford engines is a great example of things to come. The whole point with the GN comparison is that GM took their 3.8L V6 which was used in a million different cars and tweaked it to make a monster. Ford could easily take any of their "common" V6 engines and tweak it also. Hell, i have seen motorcyles engines put in cars and tweaked to make big power. It is true that most car buyers dont put too much thought into cylinders and displacement and all. Its always been a cool name game ...Hemi ...Vortec ...Northstar ...Triton, etc. Make a badass V6, give it a cool name and people will like it. I mean my dads Ford Freestar has 4.2L badges on it but who cares. Got to give it a cool name. Look at what the word Hemi has done. Hell, i dont even know the displacement of the Hemi or any of that.... but the name Hemi just sticks.
Luxury car buyers do care what engine is in there car.
But the problem here isn't simply that Lincoln will be ditching the V8. This is a problem that can be overcome. The problem is that the car is turning into a pathetic compromise that will please no one. And this same problem is reflected through out the Ford line up.
So you'll have a six cylinder with turbos. It'll get gas mileage worse than a well designed V8. It'll handles like crap. And worst, it'll just be a rebadged version of a Ford/Mercury product available for half the cost.
And no one wants to buy those cars either.
It won't be able to compete with Cadillac.
It won't be able to compete with a G35.
And it won't be able to compare to the European cars.
Maybe Ford is just slowly starving Lincoln in favor of Jaguar, much like the death of Plymouth.
But the problem here isn't simply that Lincoln will be ditching the V8. This is a problem that can be overcome. The problem is that the car is turning into a pathetic compromise that will please no one. And this same problem is reflected through out the Ford line up.
So you'll have a six cylinder with turbos. It'll get gas mileage worse than a well designed V8. It'll handles like crap. And worst, it'll just be a rebadged version of a Ford/Mercury product available for half the cost.
And no one wants to buy those cars either.
It won't be able to compete with Cadillac.
It won't be able to compete with a G35.
And it won't be able to compare to the European cars.
Maybe Ford is just slowly starving Lincoln in favor of Jaguar, much like the death of Plymouth.
Calabrio said:
another post filled with innacuracies and speculation.
1.) "we'll get a v6 w/turbos". says who?
2.) "it'll get worse mileage than a v8". turbo v6 will give better gas mileage than v8 hands down. usually a turbo motor loses 1-2 mpg vs. the non turbo version.
3.) it won't be able to compete w/xxxxxx. how was your test drive? wait you haven't driven one yet. neither has anyone else
captainalias
Dedicated LVC Member
Ford currently has a turbo-6, it's mounted in the Australian Falcon XRT6 (which has a nice interior and seats imo), which puts out 322 HP and 332 pound-feet of torque @ 2000-4500 RPM. They also offer a V-8 for the Falcon, which puts out 349 hp and roughly the same amount of torque, but from 3000-6000 rpm. The Turbo-6 gets a lot of praise, leaving the V-8 almost superfluous. But still nice to have as an option IMO. But perhaps it does demonstrate that Ford is perfactly capable of making a very good turbo-6.
0-60; less than 6 seconds.
I can't believe Australia gets all the good cars. If GM is starting to make Saturn the new Opel, I don't see how it would hurt to bring some of the Aussie stuff over here.
0-60; less than 6 seconds.
I can't believe Australia gets all the good cars. If GM is starting to make Saturn the new Opel, I don't see how it would hurt to bring some of the Aussie stuff over here.
JES_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Calabrio said:
I agree only you left out real performance.
Ford's only hope is to go outside the us development teams and look at another part of the world market.
If the rumor is true that the next Aussie falcon is being designed with a right and left hand drive options, AND ford exec's pull their collective heads out of their A$$'s and bring it here, then maybe they can win back a few of the formerly ford die hard fans.
but is more likely that they will just manage to screw that up as well, just like the Capri, the next to last escort, the sierra sapphire, the mondeo, euro focus and several other perfectly good cars that Ford USA ruined while bringing them here.
chocolat1701
Dedicated LVC Member
Its a IMAGE thing...
and that's a lincoln and they are impressed especially when i tell them its a V8 - it just sounds better saying that -- ford started off in the right foot when they created the LS and the zypher i think its a good car i step up from the usually non-cool designs they make - now with the new MKS if they are going for the v6 i hope it is twin turbo's but with ford track record in under achieving most likely that will not be the case - car dealers sell IMAGE if it looks good and fits the driver it will sell, heck peaple here are so bent on IMAGE that taxi drivers are trading in their towncars for Mercedes 430 and 500 now that is the new fad here in NYC preaty soon it will be un-cool to own one of these here cuz eaveryone has it now the same goes for the 7 series beamer i see one in eavery corner now and when peaple start trading those in I will be the next one in line LOL ..
yea you are right but that was not the point that i was making, i was just stating the image issue, for example - i tell peaple that i have a lincoln and i live here in NYC and they think im driving a taxi until they take a look at my baby they always get that look on their facebeaups said:
and that's a lincoln and they are impressed especially when i tell them its a V8 - it just sounds better saying that -- ford started off in the right foot when they created the LS and the zypher i think its a good car i step up from the usually non-cool designs they make - now with the new MKS if they are going for the v6 i hope it is twin turbo's but with ford track record in under achieving most likely that will not be the case - car dealers sell IMAGE if it looks good and fits the driver it will sell, heck peaple here are so bent on IMAGE that taxi drivers are trading in their towncars for Mercedes 430 and 500 now that is the new fad here in NYC preaty soon it will be un-cool to own one of these here cuz eaveryone has it now the same goes for the 7 series beamer i see one in eavery corner now and when peaple start trading those in I will be the next one in line LOL ..captainalias
Dedicated LVC Member
I can't believe they deleted the beautiful double-5 spoke wheels that were on the concept version. Now it just looks plain jane. Please update the turbo-6 in the XRT6 Falcon and bring it here.
captainalias
Dedicated LVC Member
Also, check out this article on BMW's new twin Turbo- puts out upwards of 300 hp and 300 lb-ft of torque, and encroaches on M3 territory.
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/
http://www.automobilemag.com/features/news/0609_2007_bmw_335i_dynamometer/
I was refering to the scenario imagined in an earlier post. The context of which was "So what if they are going to stop making V8s, it could be a twin turbo V6 that be even faster."beaups said:
And a high output V6 gets about the same gas mileage as an efficient V8. So, it'll likely get worse mileage than the V8. Doing that eliminates the market advantage of at least selling a very effecient, fuel sipping car.
So, past history isn't an indicator of future outcomes?
Which Lincoln do you know of that has an aggressive handling package?
Which brings me to my conclusion- that the car will be the comprised of compromise, and thus destined to fail. The lack of passion in design is a transparent trait in a car. Cadillac has managed to reinvent themself, Lincoln doesn't seem to be getting the attention of Ford necessary to do the same
The '87 Grand National had the same mpg rating that the 00-02 LS has, and thats comparing a 20 yr old car to a 4 yr old car, yet the power isnt even close. A newer V6 turbo could easily be made to have good mpg ratings and yet produce very desirable power. I dont understand why all the turbo talk, why wouldnt Lincoln use a supercharged engine?
fair enoughCalabrio said:
Absolutely incorrect. Not to mention the motor will be lighter, further enhancing fuel economy.Calabrio said:
Well the Lincoln LS comes to mindCalabrio said:
Possibly correct but time will tell.Calabrio said:
elhelmete
LVC Member
I had a Merk XR4Ti (new in 1987) and put 135,000 happy mostly trouble free miles on it. Loved that car. But it was frustrating knowing what Ford did to compromise the thing: i.e., drum brakes in rear, balky 5-spd tranny, detuned motor so as not to "encroach" on 'stang SVO or T-Bird TC territory.
That last one is what's coming to mind here. Obviously FMC doesn't want to spend big bucks to tool a great plant for their future lower-volume Lincolns. So we'll end up with a variation on a theme that to some FMC person will differentiate it from Mercury, Jag, Ford. But to me will be "huh?"
That last one is what's coming to mind here. Obviously FMC doesn't want to spend big bucks to tool a great plant for their future lower-volume Lincolns. So we'll end up with a variation on a theme that to some FMC person will differentiate it from Mercury, Jag, Ford. But to me will be "huh?"
doug03ls
Active LVC Member
elhelmete said:
I feel the same way. I love my 03 LS but right now I would have to say that it is the last Lincoln I will own. I don't understand how Ford management consistently misses trends and market desires.
I have resigned myself that domestic car companies will be a thing of the past in 20 yrs.
TheRebel
Dedicated LVC Member
I wonder if Lincoln has looked into the turbo 2.5 5 cylinder that the volvo s60R uses. I still think that a big luxury car should have a V8 (don't know why, guess its a mental block) but maybe something between the MKZ and MKS could use a turbo engine. After all, I read that that the MKS was more of a replacement for the Town Car than the LS. Motor Trend mentioned something about a 2 door fusion and a possible 2 door MKZ down the line. If so then the sportier MKZ could use a turbo or superchager or whatever.