LS suspension design: show me/explain why it is great

Turboguy

Turboguy

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Okay so after I pushed my LS hard on an open road race course, and then LS4me commented in my road racing thread about how the LS suspension was designed by an F1 engineer, I'm now curious.

Does anyone have a good overall suspension photo, computer generated image, or detailed technical article that describes the LS suspension and why it is a superior design?

I looked for some 1999-2000 car mag stories about the then-new car online but none really went into detail on the suspension.

I'm guessing it is a standard IRS Short Long Arm (SLA) design, but does it have other goodies that make it unique?
 
Turboguy said:
Okay so after I pushed my LS hard on an open road race course, and then LS4me commented in my road racing thread about how the LS suspension was designed by an F1 engineer, I'm now curious.

Does anyone have a good overall suspension photo, computer generated image, or detailed technical article that describes the LS suspension and why it is a superior design?

I looked for some 1999-2000 car mag stories about the then-new car online but none really went into detail on the suspension.

I'm guessing it is a standard IRS Short Long Arm (SLA) design, but does it have other goodies that make it unique?
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Like passive 4-wheel steering????
 
one of the biggest contributor is balance. the car has a near perfect weight distribution.
 
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No one on this forum is a car designer, so you're not going to find much. It's very hard to find useful information on that kind of topic on the internet in general - too specialized and too technical. Suspension components are incredibly nuanced.

All suspension work is trade-offs. There is no "best" - it depends on the entire car. I think they did a good job of balancing pros and cons and generally leaned towards more expensive but better handling.
 
Thanks 1LoudLS, oddball, and hite337. Cool rendering hite!

So, I’ve written technical articles for car mags and OEMs for the last 13 years, like this one. I was planning on including the LS suspension in an upcoming article, but I’m not a suspension expert and it sounds like this suspension is kind of exotic.

Anyone else have good LS suspension tech info?
 
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^ wow hello! ok ... was just trying to illustrate that google search is your friend. Have a FN snickers already!
 
Turboguy said:
... explaining big rig technology to customers, which means I may know more about trucks than you do. No worries though, you can always Google it ...
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this was a pissing contest ?

My interpretation of your info request was that you needed someone to explain to you the details of passive steering!

Apparently you are correct, I didn't know what you needed, despite my dare suggestion of perhaps looking it up on Google.

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me, did you ever set me straight there didn't you! Thanks for that!
smiley-score007.gif
 
Oh sorry, that was the rare, non-sarcastic "Google search" reply? Okay then. [closes missile silos, pulls back to DefCon 3]

And Snickers sucks. Always gets peanuts all up in your teeth. I mainline Dunkin Donuts original blend.
 
Wasted a lot of time last night went I actually had an interest in reading some of those articles from my own Google search on 'passive steering'.

Reason being was because this subject of losing rear passive steering when swapping out to the DEEZA JAL607's end links is something I recently completed and it interests me. I should perhaps keep my google search recommendations to others to a minimum going forth?
 
When the LS was first reviewed, the talk was about how heavy the suspension was. Lack of foresight I guess. The whole car weighs 3700 lbs without too much junk on it. The chassis stiffness is incredible. The location of the rear brakes counters any dive under heavy breaking. Try activating the e brake at speed and the rear will squat. The location of the front brakes helps to counter the dive also. I remember the road test when they wrote the only reason the LS didn't win was because of the all season tires which I hate. That's what I have on now and even so I give Porsche, BMW, Audi, and Ferraris fits on the ramps. I've had only a few times when the front has washed out on me but a little tap on the brakes and its corrected. The LS will stop on a dime and in hard braking turns too with the brake assist. It only gets upset on really rough roads but it maintains directional stability. I drive UberX and with a full load of passengers I notice no difference in handling qualities besides longer braking distances. Just the other day I was taking a guy to pick up his E55 and he commented on well it handled. So, yeah I think the Dew98 platform is the best Ford has ever made. That's why the new Jags are still using a modified version of it. Ford was stupid for letting it go. Just put staggerd wheels on the thing and the balance will be even better. I t looks like it was designed by an F1 engineer that was told it was against the rules.

One last thing, you have to know how to use the technology that it has.
 
Thanks for the input Robot: agreed, whatever they did with the LS suspension, it sure gives a tangible quality feel when pushed hard!
 
I'm no suspension expert, but my observations on the passive 4 wheel steering is I don't like it. It makes the rear feel like it's swinging out a bit more than I want it to, and I'm glad that Bigrig said that the Deeza links is supposed to eliminate that because I've got a set of them out in the garage ready to go in as soon as I find a spare minute.

Aside from that, it's pretty much just an independent rear suspension. Nothing special about it from what I've seen, beyond that Ford seems to have not used quality materials seeing as the parts tend to wear out pretty quickly.
 
The passive steering is achieved by a collapsible bushing inside the rear toe link; it's in that trapezoidal section of the link. There is a lot of suspension discussion in the '00 LS brochure. IIRC, there is also a good write-up in the issue of Motor Trend naming the LS Car of The Year. There may also be something on Edmunds.

Part of the reason it's better than most is the extensive use of aluminum. Most cars (including most muscle cars) use stamped steel control arms and other suspension pieces. These are inherently flexible. Aluminum, on the other hand, is much, much stronger and more stiff, for lack of a better term. Aluminum also reduces un-sprung weight. Watch what happens when you jack up the car. Once one end is on jack stands and you start lifting one side of the other you will see the 4th side come up on it's own; the LSes suspension is that stiff. The stiffness of the chassis plays a major role in handling.
 
Telco said:
I'm no suspension expert, but my observations on the passive 4 wheel steering is I don't like it. It makes the rear feel like it's swinging out a bit more than I want it to, and I'm glad that Bigrig said that the Deeza links is supposed to eliminate that because I've got a set of them out in the garage ready to go in as soon as I find a spare minute.

Aside from that, it's pretty much just an independent rear suspension. Nothing special about it from what I've seen, beyond that Ford seems to have not used quality materials seeing as the parts tend to wear out pretty quickly.
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Huh, that's interesting Telco. I wonder if back in the LS' development the passive system was a cost-saving measure, or a lack of ECU power to control it measure, as cars like the early 1990s Mitsu 3000 GT had active rear steering.

Apparently the best new versions are both invisible and fantastic, in new cars like the Porsche 911 GT3.
 
Turboguy said:
Huh, that's interesting Telco. I wonder if back in the LS' development the passive system was a cost-saving measure, or a lack of ECU power to control it measure, as cars like the early 1990s Mitsu 3000 GT had active rear steering.

Apparently the best new versions are both invisible and fantastic, in new cars like the Porsche 911 GT3.
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Actually, it was discovered by accident. I don't remember the story, but after they discovered it they liked it; I do too. I love how the car feels like it rotates around the driver.....
 
Thanks LS4me, really good tech info. It's always amazing to take off an old muscle car's stamped A-arm or lower control arm, so much flex. It's amazing Lincoln got away with so much aluminum on this car.

My two drivers right now are an LS with a fantastically stiff chassis, and a 10-second, sticky-tired Turbo Buick with the wet-noodle G-body frame seen in this video.

The side-by-side jack stand test should be hilarious.
 
Telco said:
I'm no suspension expert, but my observations on the passive 4 wheel steering is I don't like it. It makes the rear feel like it's swinging out a bit more than I want it to, and I'm glad that Bigrig said that the Deeza links is supposed to eliminate that because I've got a set of them out in the garage ready to go in as soon as I find a spare minute.

Aside from that, it's pretty much just an independent rear suspension. Nothing special about it from what I've seen, beyond that Ford seems to have not used quality materials seeing as the parts tend to wear out pretty quickly.
Click to expand...
Yeah just wait till you put that new suspension on and see what happens. The first time you go around the corner and swing it around and won't be able to recover hurry up and put it back on the regular one. I've never been able to do is get the car sideways with the advance Trac on because it won't let it spin around. Collapsible bushing the other person was talking actually allows the system 2 sense when the system needs to intervene. I didn't like it at first either until the first time I went around the freeway ramp in the rain and started to swing out and then the advance Trac intervene and help me correct it so I wouldn't spin all the way around. AdvanceTrac intervenes by doing differential braking to correct.
 
I like the feel and behaviour of the stock links. It always makes the car feel like it's whipping around the corner but without breaking lose. I just plan on it over-steering a little. Also shortens up the apex in a turn some.

I believe the curb weight distribution is more like 51/49 on the LS. That just translates into the LS handling better when slightly pushing to the back. Just don't let completely off in a hard turn and you'll be ok :)

I believe the 2000 and some 2001 models also got aluminum rear calipers. I'm trying to find a set for mine to reduce unsprung weight.
 
Robot said:
The location of the rear brakes counters any dive under heavy breaking. Try activating the e brake at speed and the rear will squat. The location of the front brakes helps to counter the dive also.
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I don't think caliper location means anything. The disc is spinning, the brakes slow it down. It really shouldn't matter where it grabs it. What I think you're experiencing is the brakes trying to slow down the rear wheels and the engine still trying to turn them, resulting in the car squatting the same way as revving in drive at a stop. Normally, you have both your front and rear brakes working, with the front brakes squeezing harder. The whole car wants to rotate up and over the front wheels, giving you nose dive and rear lifting.

But hey, I've been wrong before trying to apply basic physics to cars (such as wider tires), so I'm open to discussion. People tend to just go with "it's better because I know it is" and it takes forever to find actual answers. But the whole brake assembly is a solid structure affixed to the hub, so I don't see why it would make a difference.

LS4me said:
Watch what happens when you jack up the car. Once one end is on jack stands and you start lifting one side of the other you will see the 4th side come up on it's own; the LSes suspension is that stiff. The stiffness of the chassis plays a major role in handling.
Click to expand...

And it makes me incredibly uncomfortable getting underneath it because it's such a weird car to jack up. My other car is a bubbly Taurus for reference
 
LSFrank said:
I don't think caliper location means anything. The disc is spinning, the brakes slow it down. It really shouldn't matter where it grabs it. What I think you're experiencing is the brakes trying to slow down the rear wheels and the engine still trying to turn them, resulting in the car squatting the same way as revving in drive at a stop. Normally, you have both your front and rear brakes working, with the front brakes squeezing harder. The whole car wants to rotate up and over the front wheels, giving you nose dive and rear lifting.

But hey, I've been wrong before trying to apply basic physics to cars (such as wider tires), so I'm open to discussion. People tend to just go with "it's better because I know it is" and it takes forever to find actual answers. But the whole brake assembly is a solid structure affixed to the hub, so I don't see why it would make a difference.



And it makes me incredibly uncomfortable getting underneath it because it's such a weird car to jack up. My other car is a bubbly Taurus for reference
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There is anti-squat designed into the suspension; though I have no idea how it's done.

I just removed the jack stand for the picture. I, too, would be uncomfortable getting under there like that!!
 
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