Muslims show Christian minister whose is religion of peace

[foxpaws]

So - Christians didn't go after women? How about the witch hunts... very 'Christian'... And, lets say 50,000 deaths...

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; every one, man or woman, actually guilty of witchcraft, was to be put to death. The sorceress is merely named because women were more addicted to this practice than men. (Exodus Ch 22 v 18)

Witch burning happened throughout Europe - across political and geographic boundaries. And the victims were almost always women... It was a church backed initiative. Christian religions, both catholic and protestant supported witch burning.

Brian Levack's book The Witch-Hunt in Early Modern Europe arrives at roughly similar conclusions. Levack "surveyed regional studies and found that there were approximately 110,000 witch trials. Levack focused on recorded trials, not executions, because in many cases we have evidence that a trial occurred but no indication of its outcomes. On average, 48% of trials ended in an execution, [and] therefore he estimated 60,000 witches died. This is slightly higher than 48% to reflect the fact that Germany, the center of the persecution, killed more than 48% of its witches." (Gibbons, Recent Developments.) [From "The European Witch-Hunts, c. 1450-1750 and Witch-Hunts Today; Researched and written by Adam Jones.]

...for the most reasonable modern estimates suggest perhaps 100,000 trials between 1450 and 1750, with something between 40,000 and 50,000 executions (Briggs, Witches & Neighbours, p. 8.) ​

and jihad has many meanings - just as crusade does.

 

[fossten]

and you're the best the christian right can do. i feel sorry for you. you seem to keep interjecting with stupid quips like jagger-bot. and you don't even finish debates you get into either. tight spot, just quit. shag did the same in the id thread as well. couldn't make your claims stand, so you quit. or you wait for someone else to come bail you out. check it out. my post was to fossten, then calabrio jumps in . gonna finish YOUR arguements fossten?
what a moron.

Wow. What a response - the typical "NO U!"

 

[fossten]

So - Christians didn't go after women? How about the witch hunts... very 'Christian'... And, lets say 50,000 deaths...

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live; every one, man or woman, actually guilty of witchcraft, was to be put to death. The sorceress is merely named because women were more addicted to this practice than men. (Exodus Ch 22 v 18)

Witch burning happened throughout Europe - across political and geographic boundaries. And the victims were almost always women... It was a church backed initiative. Christian religions, both catholic and protestant supported witch burning.

Brian Levack's book The Witch-Hunt in Early Modern Europe arrives at roughly similar conclusions. Levack "surveyed regional studies and found that there were approximately 110,000 witch trials. Levack focused on recorded trials, not executions, because in many cases we have evidence that a trial occurred but no indication of its outcomes. On average, 48% of trials ended in an execution, [and] therefore he estimated 60,000 witches died. This is slightly higher than 48% to reflect the fact that Germany, the center of the persecution, killed more than 48% of its witches." (Gibbons, Recent Developments.) [From "The European Witch-Hunts, c. 1450-1750 and Witch-Hunts Today; Researched and written by Adam Jones.]

...for the most reasonable modern estimates suggest perhaps 100,000 trials between 1450 and 1750, with something between 40,000 and 50,000 executions (Briggs, Witches & Neighbours, p. 8.) ​

and jihad has many meanings - just as crusade does.

And how many witch burnings are going on now? You really don't know the difference between Exodus and the rest of the Bible, do you? Are we all going to hell if we eat pork as well? Thanks for displaying your gross ignorance of the Bible for all the rest of us to see.

And I have to yet again object to your blanket inclusion of catholics into Christianity. There are distinct, extreme differences, which I've taken great pains to point out in another thread.

 

[foxpaws]

You really don't know the difference between Exodus and the rest of the Bible, do you? Are we all going to hell if we eat pork as well? Thanks for displaying your gross ignorance of the Bible for all the rest of us to see.

So, lets look at Exodus... Legend has it that Moses wrote Exodus, it gives us the story of the 'exodus' from Egypt. It gave us Passover, the 10 commandments, burning bushes, the parting of the red sea... We pick and choose Foss?

But, you know, if you want to discount Exodus - please do foss, but I will call you on it in the future...

And many Jews still do follow the dietary laws set in Exodus.

How about...
Deuteronomy Ch 18 v 10-12
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch. Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.vFor all that do these things are an abomination unto the Lord: and because of these abominations the Lord thy God doth drive them out from before thee.

Or does Deuteronomy not count too?

No witch burnings now - I was answering your little tidbit in post #31

And the worst Christian practices ever toward women don't hold a candle to the current muslim practices toward women. Your attempts to equivocate fall on deaf ears.

Christian religions at their worst did a great job of holding that candle next to the Muslims regarding their treatment of women in the past.

And I have to yet again object to your blanket inclusion of catholics into Christianity. There are distinct, extreme differences, which I've taken great pains to point out in another thread.

And Catholicism is a Christian 'religion' as defined by the rest of the world. However, if you toss them out - Christianity moves to 2nd place in total population of religion in the world Foss - behind Islam. You can't have Christianity sit at the top of the heap - as you have stated in the past, if you don't include catholics. And how about Mormons - should we toss them as well? Got a list for us foss - what religions count as 'Christian' and which don't? I am sure that 2 billion Christians world wide is going to dwindle quickly... Just take out Catholics and it is down to just 1 billion. Toss out the rest you probably have 'problems' with and your 'true' Christianity probably is 1/2 the size of Islam. And would only constitute about 1/2 the population of the US.

But, back to the ethical and humane treatment of women... Heck, the real culprits, as far as sheer numbers of witch burnings, were the protestants in Germany - not the Catholics.

 

[fossten]

Again, Fox, you don't understand the difference between Old Testament Law for the Jews and the rest of the Bible. But keep sputtering, it amuses me. Your entire premise of witch killing is nothing but a straw man that has nothing to do with Christianity.

But hey - maybe I'm missing the point. Is there some personal reason why you don't like the Bible's stance on witches?

And Christianity isn't a religion. Catholicism, Mormonism, et al, are religions. There's a difference. Just because mainstream ignorance has lumped them together doesn't make it so.

 

[hrmwrm]

christianity is a religion. catholicism, young earth creationists, protestant, etc, are different sects of the religion.

 

[hrmwrm]

This only shows that this group thought that the limitations on them were due to a perverted application of Scripture. It, in no way, shows that the country was actually founding on "perverted" interpretations of Scripture, let alone that the idea of "women as property" is somehow universal in Christianity (which was the original argument here that you seem to be getting away from).

uh, no, the original arguement that fossten doesn't prove and i only supplied an example of was

"And the worst Christian practices ever toward women don't hold a candle to the current muslim practices toward women"

 

[hrmwrm]

How about we just go for some relevant evidence. A little primary evidence (Scripture) would be nice as well (as opposed to the mere assertions and views of others). You seem incapable of doing that. You are merely trying to smear Christianity in general here and not staying on topic. That, once again, shows you to be incapable of an honest debate and a hack who is only interested in smearing Christianity.

tell you what. since you have a predertimined idea of me, you tell me how to answer foss's statement above without "smearing" christianity. to do it your way, means that it can't be answered.

 

[foxpaws]

Again, Fox, you don't understand the difference between Old Testament Law for the Jews and the rest of the Bible. But keep sputtering, it amuses me. Your entire premise of witch killing is nothing but a straw man that has nothing to do with Christianity.

But hey - maybe I'm missing the point. Is there some personal reason why you don't like the Bible's stance on witches?

And Christianity isn't a religion. Catholicism, Mormonism, et al, are religions. There's a difference. Just because mainstream ignorance has lumped them together doesn't make it so.

However, some of old Testament Law isn't just for Jews - right - the 10 Commandments for instance.

I bet you have used many parts of old Testament law when you needed it to back up an assertion of yours.

How convenient that you can pick and choose - just like you can pick and choose which denominations are real 'Christians' and which aren't... And you can move them in and out of the fold when you need to. Need more Christians to prove that Christianity is larger than Islam - we'll add Catholics. Don't like what the Catholic religion has done in the past - we will exclude them from Christianity.

Certainly 'Christians' of many denominations at the time used those bible references to commit gendercide. You asked for an example, along with biblical verse, I gave both. Now we have to make sure it fits within the magical 'Foss' definition of both?

I don't think so...

And, yes, anytime a group of people, just because of blind prejudice, is singled out for mass murder, it is upsetting. Witch burning is one of those times were a strong group (men who belonged to Christian religions) set out to kill members of another group - in this case women. Women who may not have embraced Christianity the 'correct' way in the view of those men.

 

[Velo]

Please people this kind of dicussing should not be on a car forum.
Give your head a shake and stick to the cars.

 

[luxuryrules]

Please people this kind of dicussing should not be on a car forum.
Give your head a shake and stick to the cars.

Well said dude - but be careful, when I popped up here and started making that observation I got put through the ringer for it. Apparently the insults only come from the Left, and anything that comes from the Right is ok because the Left started it

 

[fossten]

christianity is a religion. catholicism, young earth creationists, protestant, etc, are different sects of the religion.

You are incorrect. Jesus Himself railed against religion.

 

[fossten]

However, some of old Testament Law isn't just for Jews - right - the 10 Commandments for instance.

I bet you have used many parts of old Testament law when you needed it to back up an assertion of yours.

How convenient that you can pick and choose - just like you can pick and choose which denominations are real 'Christians' and which aren't... And you can move them in and out of the fold when you need to. Need more Christians to prove that Christianity is larger than Islam - we'll add Catholics. Don't like what the Catholic religion has done in the past - we will exclude them from Christianity.

Certainly 'Christians' of many denominations at the time used those bible references to commit gendercide. You asked for an example, along with biblical verse, I gave both. Now we have to make sure it fits within the magical 'Foss' definition of both?

I don't think so...

And, yes, anytime a group of people, just because of blind prejudice, is singled out for mass murder, it is upsetting. Witch burning is one of those times were a strong group (men who belonged to Christian religions) set out to kill members of another group - in this case women. Women who may not have embraced Christianity the 'correct' way in the view of those men.

You can make all the claims you want, but the fact remains - you don't understand the Bible, nor have you read it.

Interesting that you include the word Christians in quotes there. I guess even you realize that those people were not real Christians. Thanks for proving my point.

And you can be snarky all you want, but my 'magical definition' comes from the Bible. Your attempts to conflate Christianity and murder are a failure.

 

[fossten]

Please people this kind of dicussing should not be on a car forum.
Give your head a shake and stick to the cars.

In case you didn't notice, this is a political forum INSIDE a car forum.

But thanks for telling us what you think, troll. Maybe if you would stick to the car forum you wouldn't get your pink panties in a wad over what we're discussing, hmm?

 

[foxpaws]

You can make all the claims you want, but the fact remains - you don't understand the Bible, nor have you read it.

Interesting that you include the word Christians in quotes there. I guess even you realize that those people were not real Christians. Thanks for proving my point.

And you can be snarky all you want, but my 'magical definition' comes from the Bible. Your attempts to conflate Christianity and murder are a failure.

I have and continue to read the Bible - however much you don't want to believe that Foss - once again I could take a picture of my much sticky noted and highlighted bible (result of many, many study groups) in front of the computer screen, like I did Atlas Shrugged, but it won't convince you.

What I find really interesting is your ability to create Christianity in your own image and on your own terms, as well as reconstruct the Bible, to fit your purpose at the time.

Oh, the quotes are because I was talking about 'Christians' and needed a way to indicate that it was looking at Christians within that time frame of witch burning. Those views are different than current day views of Christianity, but were very 'christian' in their day and age. Just as all religions change over time. Current viewpoints of Christianity could change markedly in the future.

Please people this kind of dicussing should not be on a car forum.
Give your head a shake and stick to the cars.

Ah, Jake - a bit of advice - abandon all hope - ye who enter here...

 

[fossten]

Oh, the quotes are because I was talking about 'Christians' and needed a way to indicate that it was looking at Christians within that time frame of witch burning. Those views are different than current day views of Christianity, but were very 'christian' in their day and age. Just as all religions change over time. Current viewpoints of Christianity could change markedly in the future.

No, you are being QUITE dishonest. What you 'needed' was a way to tie Christianity to witch burning so you could paint it as an 'evil religion.'

You weren't 'talking about Christians', you were SMEARING Christianity.

 

[foxpaws]

It was a church backed initiative. Christian religions, both catholic and protestant supported witch burning. - Post 51

Christian religions at their worst did a great job of holding that candle next to the Muslims regarding their treatment of women in the past. - Post 54

Witch burning is one of those times were a strong group (men who belonged to Christian religions) set out to kill members of another group - Post 59

I have very specifically used 'religion' throughout this argument Foss.

No, you are being QUITE dishonest. What you 'needed' was a way to tie Christianity to witch burning so you could paint it as an 'evil religion.'

You weren't 'talking about Christians', you were SMEARING Christianity.

Christians of the past were often 'evil,' by current definition. It is part of Christian history. We have hopefully changed since then. But, we have also redefined 'Christianity' along the way.

I am sure you don't follow the Christianity that was practice around the time right after Christ Foss. For one thing, they continued to practice those 'dietary' laws that you scoffed at earlier. Christianity has moved away from those laws.

Religions change with the times. Just as countries do. Just because we haven't experienced what past citizens have, doesn't make us lesser citizens or better citizens than past Americans. We are just different. Just as we are different than past Christians.

Just as you don't judge current day Germany by it's mistakes of the past... or maybe you do Foss.

 

[hrmwrm]

You are incorrect. Jesus Himself railed against religion.

by what, creating another?. fulfilling the prophecy of messianic judaism?
but i'm just assuming an historical character for the sake of arguement here.

 

[hrmwrm]

I guess even you realize that those people were not real Christians.

i've heard you before say many aren't christians. i guess you had best define in your terms what is to stop future confusion.

 

[ford nut]

i've heard you before say many aren't christians. i guess you had best define in your terms what is to stop future confusion.

I can for you..there are three for fossten...Me.... Myself... and I.

 

[shagdrum]

I can for you..there are three for fossten...Me.... Myself... and I.

troll

 

[Mr Wiggl3s]

Muzzlims are SCARED TO DEATH of Christianity,,They know our religion is strong and CAN TAKE IT they have to resort to this kind of behavior,,they're weak. Goofy artists in the name of ART produce all kinds of stuff about JESUS,,GOD,,VIRGIN MARY,,ST.JOHN,,MARY MAGDALIN (sic) etc etc etc WE JUST "KEEP ON TRUCKIN' ". Muzzlims (they love it spelled that way) are also SCARED TO DEATH of the INTERNET.

Qu'ran > Bible all day.

 

[hrmwrm]

hrmwrm, your post (#47) contained 1772 words, only 86 of which came from you. That is 4.85% of the words in that post that came from you. Are you going to revert back to your dishonest "wall 'o' text" type posts again?



This only shows that this group thought that the limitations on them were due to a perverted application of Scripture. It, in no way, shows that the country was actually founding on "perverted" interpretations of Scripture, let alone that the idea of "women as property" is somehow universal in Christianity (which was the original argument here that you seem to be getting away from).

In short, all you are doing to prove your point is citing mere assertions of others that are not backed up (as you have shown them, anyway) and are irrelevant to the original point.



It is clear that the line you are quoting is talking about Eve. How does that have anything to do with the idea that "women are property" is somehow universally applicable to Christianity?

Oh, wait; it doesn't. You are misdirecting and in doing so showing your notorious lack of any intellectual integrity.



This quote is clearly talking about the unique role that women play in conception. How does that prove that Christianity views women as "property"? You just can't stay on topic, can you.



How about we just go for some relevant evidence. A little primary evidence (Scripture) would be nice as well (as opposed to the mere assertions and views of others). You seem incapable of doing that. You are merely trying to smear Christianity in general here and not staying on topic. That, once again, shows you to be incapable of an honest debate and a hack who is only interested in smearing Christianity.

they didn't "think" these things, they were already pevalent. being excluded from a vote, any property was the husbands upon marriage, etc. apparently you need your hand held and guided to make a distinction.

as for scripture, i posted a passage from timothy. i'll expand it a little longer, so you get the full implication.

2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times;

2:7 to which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth in Christ, not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

2:8 I desire therefore that the men in every place pray, lifting up holy hands without wrath and doubting.

2:9 In the same way, that women also adorn themselves in decent clothing, with modesty and propriety; not just with braided hair, gold, pearls, or expensive clothing;

2:10 but (which becomes women professing godliness) with good works.

2:11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.

2:12 But I don't permit a woman to teach, nor to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.

2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve.

2:14 Adam wasn't deceived, but the woman, being deceived, has fallen into disobedience;

2:15 but she will be saved through her child-bearing, if they continue in faith, love, and sanctification with sobriety.


so, dress up, shut up, and be subjagated by men, and bear children. 2.5 and 2.7 make it clear we are talking about christianity.


a little more.

3:1 This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work.

3:2 The overseer therefore must be without reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, sensible, modest, hospitable, good at teaching;

3:3 not a drinker, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous;

3:4 one who rules his own house well, having children in subjection with all reverence;

3:5 (but if a man doesn't know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the assembly of God?)

hmmm. MAN rule HIS house.

these are quotes from the bible, and the bible teachings. and when i posted them up before, the man who can pull a line out of the bible to back up his claims couldn't pull up any to refute these lines, so i stand by my statement it is prevalent in christianity.

after all, the bible is truth, and these are the teachings of the bible?
to disagree with them would mean you're not christian.

 

[fossten]

I guess we know who rules your house. If you even have a woman.

 

[Mr Wiggl3s]

I guess we know who rules your house. If you even have a woman.

:lol: Dont go around acting like your religion is the best. I think its been said enough that christians and sympathy (understanding) are like water and oil