Outraged by Glenn Beck’s Salvo, Christians Fire Back

[shagdrum]

BTW fox, you have yet to show that your distinction between "different" ideas of social justice is anything more then a misunderstanding due to the idea being defined down over generations.

Show me where there is a separate conception of social justice that developed over the centuries. The closest you have come is a quote by Thomas Paine that doesn't even refer to social justice by inference unless you assume it does (circular reasoning).

I can trace the conception of social justice back to the 18th century with Godwin and Condorcet. All the quotes you cite about social justice since that time merely serve as circumstantial evidence of the concept of social justice being defined down for generations and many people throughout society misunderstanding the term.

 

[foxpaws]

Cal - if Beck would have been rational, stated that you need to ask your priest/pastor/minister on how their church views taking political stands, and what types of political stands their church takes on certain issues, I would have had far less problem with this. However, he took the scare tactic route. "'Social Justice' they are code words for communism and nazism." Will normal church goers ask their minister - 'are we communists because we use the words social justice in our litany?' Probably not - since most churches use those words, those secret, evil, code words, then logically, by association, most ministers must be communists/fascists too... And are you going to feel comfortable, or believe, what your minister tells you at that point? Would you believe that he isn't a communist - he and your church uses those secret words... therefore, logically, they must be communist or fascist.

He could have approached this logically, calmly and without the 'secret words' 'scary words' 'blanket assumptions' and avoided all the retribution he is getting from almost every organized religion out there.

It isn't just me Cal that finds this offensive - almost every organized religion does - because he is trying to scare people, instead of having parishioners look at this logically and with an attitude of learning, not fearing.

And Beck realized it too, after being drug on the carpet for it from everyone from the American Baptists to his own church... he attempted to 'clarify' things the next day...

Using fear to get you to change your church is wrong.

And shag - go out to the Heritage Foundation for a really different idea. There you will find someone, Micheal Novak, who believes that your (Godwin/Rawls/Hayek) version is the one that is bastardized.

I contend that normal people use and understand this term just like GWBush did (and like Micheal Novak). Bush was a very 'common man' type president, and he used terms in the same way that most people do. He used social justice in a good light - that we are bringing social justice to other countries... He might have had the term wrong, but what he meant (equality) was a good thing. Just like the churches might have the term 'technically wrong' but their idea of social justice (charity) is good.

And who has been using the word the longest - the actual term - 'social justice'?

You may want to educate, but first you need to define the differences in how a word is used 'commonly' and how a word is used 'correctly'. They are very different things. Beck neglected to do that. He never mentioned Thomas Aquinas or his role in how Catholics view social justice. I think you should review how John Wesley looks at ideal of social justice as well, the Methodists were and are very active in social justice - Wesley was one of the very first men to preach against slavery - a social justice cause in his time.

Beck certainly was quick to invoke Marx though...

The church uses the term 'commonly' while Beck was enforcing a 'scholarly' usage of the word. Do you understand why there is a problem there shag... They aren't on the same page...

 

[shagdrum]

So Mr. Novak can trace the idea in the church back to 19th century. I can trace it back to the 18th century. You have yet to show that it is anything other then a ignorant misunderstanding by most and an intentional false distinction by others.

Again, Beck was talking about it in a specific context that was clear to his audience and that is what matters in judging this. Do you think his audience was too dumb to understand that?

You like to make false distinctions between a "common" definitions and a "scholarly" definitions when it suits your arguments however in those instances, the only viable distinction is right and wrong.

 

[foxpaws]

So Mr. Novak can trace the idea in the church back to 19th century. I can trace it back to the 18th century. You have yet to show that it is anything other then a missunderstanding by most and an intentional false distinction by others.

Again, Beck was talking about it in a specific context that was clear to his audience and that is what matters in judging this. Do you think his audience was too dumb to understand that?

Shag-you can trace the idea perhaps back further, probably to Aristotle... but, where did the actual term 'social justice' first surface? It has been a while since I read Godwin, but I don't remember him using that term... I don't think he coined it... Did he?

And I don't think that Beck's listeners are dumb, I do think that they are very normal, common people. People who would understand and equate the words "social justice' to GWBush's usage of the term, not Rawls.

 

[fossten]

I'm a Baptist and I was not offended by Beck's remark, nor was my wife, nor were any of my friends who heard it or read it. I attend the largest Baptist church in my city.

So my anecdotal evidence cancels out yours, fox.

Clearly you were offended because Beck exposed your type of church as socialist and leftist. Keep crying, fox, it amuses me.

 

[shagdrum]

It is rather fun to watch her propaganda tactics backfire...

 

[fossten]

Bush was a very 'common man' type president, and he used terms in the same way that most people do. He used social justice in a good light - that we are bringing social justice to other countries... He might have had the term wrong, but what he meant (equality) was a good thing. Just like the churches might have the term 'technically wrong' but their idea of social justice (charity) is good.

So you admit that the correct definition of social justice is not charity, but one more accurately meant by Beck. Thanks for admitting that.

I don't think you have the same view of equality that Bush does.

But notice the difference: while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude. - Alexis de Tocqueville

 

[foxpaws]

It is rather fun to watch her propaganda tactics backfire...

So shag, who coined the term 'social justice' first?

Sort of a scary answer - huh?

 

[foxpaws]

So you admit that the correct definition of social justice is not charity, but one more accurately meant by Beck. Thanks for admitting that.

I don't think you have the same view of equality that Bush does.

I have admitted that all along - what you don't seem to be able to understand is that some people - especially with regards to the church, use the term 'social justice' differently. And if you are going to go to church (like Beck did in his little tirade) then you should use the term how the church uses it.

And I obviously have a different view of social justice than Bush does - I think - however, who knows - maybe he was referring to Rawls' definition and wanted to impose communist 'social justice' on other nations in the speech where he used that term...

Do you think he meant the communist or fascist usage of the word Foss, or do you think he was just going for a populace meaning...

 

[fossten]

stuff

I agree with not only Beck's definition but his usage of the phrase. You are welcome to be outrageously outraged, despite the disingenuousness of said outrage. I personally don't give a crap. Beck is correct, and he's effective, and he exposed you and your fellow Marxists. Deal with it.

 

[shagdrum]

I have admitted that all along

Really?

what you don't seem to be able to understand is that some people - especially with regards to the church, use the term 'social justice' differently. And if you are going to go to church (like Beck did in his little tirade) then you should use the term how the church uses it.

What you are intentionally ignoring is the fact that this does not matter. It is a red herring; an attempt to change the focus of the debate.

Beck's definition has been clear (despite your baseless assertions to the contrary).

 

[foxpaws]

What you are intentionally ignoring is the fact that this does not matter. It is a red herring; an attempt to change the focus of the debate.

Beck's definition has been clear (despite your baseless assertions to the contrary).

But, in context it does matter... He used the words incorrectly if you are dealing with the church...

Pastoral can have very different meanings if you are sitting in a church or walking through an art gallery. Context shag. Just as Social Justice has different meanings if you are reading a church website and you are reading Hayek Cafe...

Oh, you haven't answered my question yet shag - scrambling to find an answer to 'who used 'social justice' first? I can give you places to go to find out...

Let's discover that little tidbit here, before we carry on. Because I think it is important when you are dealing with the subject - find out who used the term first - because, if it was the church... things change don't they? I think you would have to defer to the originator of the term.

 

[shagdrum]

But, in context it does matter

Yet you are intentionally taking him out of context.

scrambling to find an answer to 'who used 'social justice' first?

No. I simply refuse to continue humoring your attempt to create a false distinction here when the truth has been revealed. If all you can do is repeatedly assert a lie, then you have no argument...

 

[fossten]

Oh, you haven't answered my question yet shag - scrambling to find an answer to 'who used 'social justice' first? I can give you places to go to find out...

Really, fox, enough with the childish taunting, hm? You'd think someone of your - *ahem* - 'stature' wouldn't resort to such banal tactics. Besides, if I had a dollar for every one of the threads where you failed to respond to someone's challenge, I wouldn't have to work. Knock off the hypocrisy. You don't deserve any treatment better than you give.

5. "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon. It is almost impossible to counteract ridicule. Also it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."

 

[foxpaws]

Yet you are intentionally taking him out of context.

No. I simply refuse to continue humoring your attempt to create a false distinction here when the truth has been revealed. If all you can do is repeatedly assert a lie, then you have no argument...

You refuse because it was the catholic church who coined the term.

So should we go with the people who have used the term the longest - had a great deal invested in the term - and continue to use the term within their historical framework.

Or should we use the term as say, Rawls' used it? He used it after the catholics had already coined the term and integrated it into their litany.

I think you need to give the churches a lot of leeway here shag. They used the term first, had a great deal of historical background using the term in the form they coined it. When dealing with churches, you need to defer to their usage of the term, they were here first... Beck should have deferred to the churches usage, explained how he was going to use the term differently, or use different terms.

It is, once again, why they are so upset with Beck. According to their historical usage of the term, he is wrong, it doesn't deal with communists and fascists.

 

[fossten]

I WANNA HAVE THE LAST WORD!!!!!1111!ONE11!!!

Fixed that for ya.

How about you go respond to about thirty other comments you've ignored in the last 2 weeks, then get back to us.

 

[shagdrum]

You refuse because it was the catholic church who coined the term.

The idea had been around long before Taparelli coined the term in the 1840's. As I said, Godwin's Enquiry Concerning Political Justice from 1793 is considered to be one of the first in depth works on social justice. "Political" was understood at that time to mean "organized society". Condorcet (who died in 1794) also wrote on the idea of social justice and Taparelli's usage of the term is consistent with both Godwin and Condorcet.

But again, this is simply a red herring. What matters is what Beck was talking about which you are distorting.

 

[foxpaws]

The idea had been around long before Taparelli coined the term in the 1840's. As I said, Godwin's Enquiry Concerning Political Justice from 1793 is considered to be one of the first in depth works on social justice. "Political" was understood at that time to mean "organized society". Condorcet (who died in 1794) also wrote on the idea of social justice and Taparelli's usage of the term is consistent with both Godwin and Condorcet.

But again, this is simply a red herring. What matters is what Beck was talking about which you are distorting.

But the term was coined by the catholics... Godwin never used the words 'social justice' did he Shag - like I said - I can't remember that term in his work.

And it does matter - Beck needed to very clearly identify which 'social justice' he was talking about - the one the church coined the term for, or the one that Rawl's hijacked... In most other contexts it wouldn't have mattered so much, but in this case - where there are clear and distinct differences in how the church uses the term, you have to be very careful and make sure you very clearly state how you are going to use the term.

An you especially don't go for the scare tactic here. It misdirects and confuses the issue.

I really rarely go after Beck - I think the last time was when he called Obama a racist (he is still paying the price for that dumb move), but here, the way he uses hate mongering is despicable.

I let a lot slide with Beck, his whole art thing at Rockefeller Center, is something that was just so stupid it was comical - however, it was harmless...

What he did regarding tying mainstream religions with communism and fascism isn't so harmless.

Once again shag - if it were so 'apparent' why have so many churches gone after Beck on this? Or maybe they are all so leftist that they are in on the 'get Beck' conspiracy too...

Remember - Beck doesn’t have any listeners among Jeremiah Wright’s crowd, but he’s got plenty of conservative Catholics... His tirade wasn't aimed at people who go to churches like Wright's (they aren't in his audience) - it was aimed at main stream churches.

 

[shagdrum]

But the term was coined by the catholics... Godwin never used the words 'social justice' did he Shag - like I said - I can't remember that term in his work.

That's because you have never read his work, though it is clear you are trying and present yourself as if you had.

So, are you going to try and reshape your argument under the absurd premise that a the phrase is more important then it's meaning?

 

[foxpaws]

That's because you have never read his work, though it is clear you are trying and present yourself as if you had.

So, are you going to try and reshape your argument under the absurd premise that a the phrase is more important then it's meaning?

So, it isn't in there - is it shag? Got your copy out and are desperately searching?

And yes - in this case, because Beck was very specifically using the phrase 'social justice' and since the phrase has a different meaning in a church context, the phrase in this case is more important.

Once again, if he didn't use the fearmonger tactic with communism and fascism, it wouldn't be such a big deal, I would have laughed it off, like the art critic thing... but, the fearmongering aimed at main stream churches is deplorable...

 

[shagdrum]

So ideas are secondary and phrases are of primary importance in defining a concept, eh? It is all about what is convenient for your argument at the time. How long until you are going to be arguing the reverse of this?

 

[fossten]

Once again, if he didn't use the fearmonger tactic with communism and fascism, it wouldn't be such a big deal, I would have laughed it off, like the art critic thing... but, the fearmongering aimed at main stream churches is deplorable...

What's hilarious is you bleating about 'deplorable' because Beck hit you right between the eyes.

 

[shagdrum]

Once again, if he didn't use the fearmonger tactic with communism and fascism, it wouldn't be such a big deal, I would have laughed it off, like the art critic thing... but, the fearmongering aimed at main stream churches is deplorable...

It is rather telling that leftist cry "fear mongering" yet they can not honestly confront the idea on it's merits.

You and I have gone round and round on this and you can not confront this idea honestly. You can't even demonstrate that you truly understand what communism and fascism are and what distinguishes them as an ideology. All you can do is distort and mislead.

If you can not honestly confront the argument on it's merits then you are simply engaging in demagoguery and character assassination.

 

[foxpaws]

It is rather telling that leftist cry "fear mongering" yet they can not honestly confront the idea on it's merits.

You and I have gone round and round on this and you can not confront this idea honestly. You can't even demonstrate that you truly understand what communism and fascism are and what distinguishes them as an ideology. All you can do is distort and mislead.

If you can not honestly confront the argument on it's merits then you are simply engaging in demagoguery and character assassination.

And you cannot figure out why you don't treat each instance exactly the same... That is where your blinders hinder you Shag. You need to understand why you would treat the term 'social justice' differently when using it within the context of the church than if you were using it in a classroom situation.

You definition is correct... however, you need to look beyond your boundaries of 'only this' when you deal with real world situations. You have to understand, and accept that there are others who look at this with a different concept, like the churches shag, and their parishioners. And then you have to make allowances for that.

Don't be so 'exact' when dealing with others. Humans aren't so exact shag. They are much better and interesting because of this.

 

[fossten]

And you cannot figure out why you don't treat each instance exactly the same... That is where your blinders hinder you Shag. You need to understand why you would treat the term 'social justice' differently when using it within the context of the church than if you were using it in a classroom situation.

You definition is correct... however, you need to look beyond your boundaries of 'only this' when you deal with real world situations. You have to understand, and accept that there are others who look at this with a different concept, like the churches shag, and their parishioners. And then you have to make allowances for that.

Don't be so 'exact' when dealing with others. Humans aren't so exact shag. They are much better and interesting because of this.

7. "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag. Man can sustain militant interest in any issue for only a limited time...."

8. "Keep the pressure on, with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose."