Palin to resign as Alaska governor

Well, at least
you're still lurking and up to the 'ol hit and runnin'.



Bottom line, she's a QUITTER and a LIAR who can't take the heat of elected office and could never have been trusted "one heartbeat away".

Boy, you libs are so praying (ooops..koolaid drinking) for that to be true. I know that the new narrative because you see it on every lib site.

It's amazing, you people all start barking the same bark at the same time. Can't anyone on the Left run with one of their own thoughts? That explains the 'sheeple' part I guess.:rolleyes:
 
smears, disinformation and distortion...

Wouldn't expect anything else from one of your trolling, childish outbursts.

tantrum-5.gif
 
:rolleyes: Too bad, considering all the massive amount of evidence to the contrary that's been posted on this forum. I guess it just goes to show ya that some people stubbornly cling to the belief that the world is flat no matter what proof you show them.

Are you even aware that the earth's temp hasn't increased since 2001?

As far as Gore's stupid movie, remember the court case finding it full of errors?

I guess all the extra unnatural greenhouse gas is okay, as is the damage to the ozone. Hey, some people still believe the Earth is only around 6k years old, no matter what proof you show them.

Link? Also, I'm not claiming it will be 10* hotter by 2011, doesn't work that fast, chief. Way down the road though, our pollution will be a [major] problem for children's children, children etc.

Never watched that film, see my original point about valid concerns being raped and rendered moot by those that wanted to turn a quick profit. Why isn't Gore still on the front lines and fighting the good fight? The fat clown.

-

As far as Palin, if she does run in 2012, I wonder how the would be shields-of-justice for her are going to react when the other Reps running for the spot tear her a new one and use the very same issues you're crying about now. Talk about a conundrum.
 
I guess all the extra unnatural greenhouse gas is okay, as is the damage to the ozone. Hey, some people still believe the Earth is only around 6k years old, no matter what proof you show them.
You aren't showing proof though, you're making a statement and presuming the outcome.

But, care to tell me what part of CO2 is unnatural?

Unfortunately, all of these pollution measures, like cap and trade, aren't designed to reduce DANGEROUS things like MERCURY in the air. They limit naturally occurring things like CO2.

You're assuming that reducing CO2 will prevent what from happening?
And what undisputed evidence is there that indicates that such a thing has happened?

Do you make decisions that will destroy an economy based on assumptions or speculative and widely disputed theories? Or do you take a more measured approach.

We'd both agree, we should continue to take steps to limit things like Mercury and lead from being released into the atmosphere. That harmful chemicals shouldn't be dumped into natural habitats.

But reducing the level of carbon dioxide, and placing taxes on such emissions that will surely undermine the nations manufacturing sector? That's a critical mistake.

Link? Also, I'm not claiming it will be 10* hotter by 2011, doesn't work that fast, chief. Way down the road though, our pollution will be a [major] problem for children's children, children etc.
How long does it take?
We were much less efficient, much more polluting in the 19th and early 20th century and we've seen none of these fears come to fruition.

So what, specifically, is this based on?


As far as Palin, if she does run in 2012, I wonder how the would be shields-of-justice for her are going to react when the other Reps running for the spot tear her a new one and use the very same issues you're crying about now. Talk about a conundrum.
What the hell are you talking about? "Shields of justice?"
I don't even presume to know what that's a reference to .
 
You aren't showing proof though, you're making a statement and presuming the outcome.

But, care to tell me what part of CO2 is unnatural?

Unfortunately, all of these pollution measures, like cap and trade, aren't designed to reduce DANGEROUS things like MERCURY in the air. They limit naturally occurring things like CO2.

You're assuming that reducing CO2 will prevent what from happening?
And what undisputed evidence is there that indicates that such a thing has happened?

Do you make decisions that will destroy an economy based on assumptions or speculative and widely disputed theories? Or do you take a more measured approach.

We'd both agree, we should continue to take steps to limit things like Mercury and lead from being released into the atmosphere. That harmful chemicals shouldn't be dumped into natural habitats.

But reducing the level of carbon dioxide, and placing taxes on such emissions that will surely undermine the nations manufacturing sector? That's a critical mistake.


How long does it take?
We were much less efficient, much more polluting in the 19th and early 20th century and we've seen none of these fears come to fruition.

So what, specifically, is this based on?



What the hell are you talking about? "Shields of justice?"
I don't even presume to know what that's a reference to .

Human's have been adding greenhouse gases into the atmosphere since the dawn of the industrial age, you know this. These 'extras' wouldn't normally occur in nature, unless you think a diesel-pusher is natural, there is a balance to things, when that balance is gimped, bad things can happen. The Ozone and CFC and halons for example.

Maybe you confuse me for one of the 'let's all ride bicycles and eat gluten free cookies' type, I'm not; not even close. I realize shutting down industry isn't logical, nor have I ever pushed for it and you're right, every measure America or the rest of the 1st world makes is defaulted by countries like India and China. That wasn't my original point though, just that mindset that humans aren't causing harm to the planet that will adversely affect us is faulty and saying 'Global Warming is purely a myth', is wrong.

You're asking how long until the Earth's temp is unbearable? I wouldn't know, I don't think anyone has a solid number, or even if it will ever reach critcial in the sense that we're all doomed and heading the way of the dodo. But effects of pollution can be seen now, water pollution, dwindling sea life, bee populations shrinking (we need bees, a lot too).

-

Look how fiercely Palin is defended in here, almost like some people personally know her. It's cute, but cheesy. What's going to happen (to those people) if she runs and gets the Ron Paul treatment by the other Reps and they use the very same ammo the "hateful Dem/Libs" are using now?
 
Human's have been adding greenhouse gases into the atmosphere since the dawn of the industrial age, you know this. These 'extras' wouldn't normally occur in nature, unless you think a diesel-pusher is natural, there is a balance to things, when that balance is gimped, bad things can happen. The Ozone and CFC and halons for example.

...and most of these greenhouse gases have very little effect on the climate (specifically in regards to temperature). The thing that effects it most is water vapor and that process is something we don't fully understand. So in the computer models we use to draw conclusions about the climate and our effect on it, we have to make assumptions about that (among other things). That makes the computer models less then reliable at best. The track record of these computer models (which is what all claims of man-made global warming are based on) bears this out.

Maybe you confuse me for one of the 'let's all ride bicycles and eat gluten free cookies' type, I'm not; not even close. I realize shutting down industry isn't logical, nor have I ever pushed for it and you're right, every measure America or the rest of the 1st world makes is defaulted by countries like India and China. That wasn't my original point though, just that mindset that humans aren't causing harm to the planet that will adversely affect us is faulty and saying 'Global Warming is purely a myth', is wrong.

Who is saying global warming is a myth? It is real, but the facts we have show that it is likely that the earth has in fact been cooling since 2001.

And just because global warming is real does not mean that anthropogenic global warming (man-made) is true or, even if it is true, that it is a significant enough factor that we need to do something about it, or that we are even capable of doing something about it (without reverting to a pre-industrial age lifestyle).

You're asking how long until the Earth's temp is unbearable? I wouldn't know, I don't think anyone has a solid number, or even if it will ever reach critcial in the sense that we're all doomed and heading the way of the dodo. But effects of pollution can be seen now, water pollution, dwindling sea life, bee populations shrinking (we need bees, a lot too).

A lot of that is based on cherry-picked facts and hyperbole. While some problems caused by pollution/man-made actions are real, most of the sources making these claims (about bee populations, or whatever) assume that whatever negative in nature they see is caused by man and irrationally place the burden of proof on anyone else claiming otherwise. BTW, this flies in the face of any assumption of methodological naturalism (which, supposedly, is a necessary assumption for any science, according to the Darwinists in the Darwinism vs. ID debate).

A prime example of these claims of man-made environmental problems based on assumptions; frog legs.

Also, most all the genuine problems caused by man are localized, as opposed to a huge effect on the climate.

Look how fiercely Palin is defended in here, almost like some people personally know her. It's cute, but cheesy. What's going to happen (to those people) if she runs and gets the Ron Paul treatment by the other Reps and they use the very same ammo the "hateful Dem/Libs" are using now?

Then they will be called on it and there will likely be a backlash in the GOP base against them. They are going to have to be very careful in how they attack her if she runs. Ad hominem attacks against her will likely hurt them more then it does her.
 
Suggestion: if we are actually going to discuss environmentalism in-depth, maybe admin should split this off into another thread.
 
In regards to Palin, I meant what is going to happen to the posters in here that defend her while demonizing the "Dem/Libs" for those attacks, if/when she's attacked in kind from the Right, come election year.
 
As to a link on the claim that temps haven't increased since 2001, this story cites a study which it summarizes:
The study, released on Jan. 28 by Kyle L. Swanson and Anastasios A. Tsonis, who are professors in the Department of Mathematical Sciences at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee, found that the Earth has been cooling since 2001 and projected that due to “global variation” the climate would continue to cool for the next 20 to 30 years.

There are also these sources which I got from a quick internet search on the subject.
 
In regards to Palin, I meant what is going to happen to the posters in here that defend her while demonizing the "Dem/Libs" for those attacks, if/when she's attacked in kind from the Right, come election year.

I would imagine what I said would hold true even here. I don't want to put words in others mouths, and the only way to know for sure is if and when that happens, but I personally would focus on the relevance of the critique as well as the accuracy of it. Character is an important part of any potential president and Palin will have to answer for her resignation at that time (as well she should). But, if a lot of these future potential GOP presidential candidates go on record now defending her, those quotes will be fair game too. They may very well be more then a little apprehensive to bring it up by that point.
 
Human's have been adding greenhouse gases into the atmosphere since the dawn of the industrial age, you know this. These 'extras' wouldn't normally occur in nature, unless you think a diesel-pusher is natural, there is a balance to things, when that balance is gimped, bad things can happen. The Ozone and CFC and halons for example.
So, we've been adding "greenhouse gases" since the industrial age.
You think the "extra" CO2 that we produce is causing massive climate change?

When.
There's certainly no conclusive evidence so far that any changes in climate have taken place. And even less that links the speculative changes to man made activity.

So I ask, when are we going to start seeing this change?
Hasn't happened yet.

Let's also not that our country and society is CLEANER now than it was 100 years ago. That the American environment as a whole is healthier today than it was even a half century ago.

So we've seen no climate change related to our activities to date AND we're cleaner now than we ever have been. So why do you destroy the economy based upon some ridiculous speculation?

Fact is- it's a political and social issue, less an environmental one.
Why are we focusing on limiting CO2 emissions when China releases Mercury unrestricted?

Additionally, weak economies and poor countries aren't usually very eco-friendly. Being "green" is really a luxury of wealthy countries. If you torpedo the American economy, the last thing we'll be doing is buying Sunshine powered happiness machines. We'll be burning old tires to stay warm and using the fat of baby polar bears for lamp oil.

Maybe you confuse me for one of the 'let's all ride bicycles and eat gluten free cookies' type, I'm not; not even close. I realize shutting down industry isn't logical, nor have I ever pushed for it and you're right, every measure America or the rest of the 1st world makes is defaulted by countries like India and China. That wasn't my original point though, just that mindset that humans aren't causing harm to the planet that will adversely affect us is faulty and saying 'Global Warming is purely a myth', is wrong.
So you are opposing the "Cap and Trade" nightmare that the Democrats in the house recently passed?


You're asking how long until the Earth's temp is unbearable? I wouldn't know, I don't think anyone has a solid number,
I'm didn't ask for that, but I'd be happy to hear you answer when the Earth will actually start getting hotter than in years previous.
If it's getting hotter, shouldn't the last five or ten years be the hottest five or ten years- at least on record?
And not just based on recordings made by thermometers next to A/C units?

But effects of pollution can be seen now, water pollution, dwindling sea life, bee populations shrinking (we need bees, a lot too).

What are you basing this on??
Wild speculation? Junk pop science?

If you had been writing this in the 70s, I am confident that you'd be arguing that we were going to be facing global cooling that the population explosion was going to cause widespread starvation and violence by the year 2000.


Look how fiercely Palin is defended in here, almost like some people personally know her. It's cute, but cheesy.

And it's ugly, but vicious and demented how fiercely some people villify and attack Palin, almost like she personally shot their dog or called their mother a dirty whore.

What's going to happen (to those people) if she runs and gets the Ron Paul treatment by the other Reps and they use the very same ammo the "hateful Dem/Libs" are using now?
Who cares?
Is that a genuine concern or a rhetorical question?
 
You're assuming that reducing CO2 will prevent what from happening?

ocean acidification

And what undisputed evidence is there that indicates that such a thing has happened?
it's undisputed. co2 absorption into the ocean IS acidifying it. the only thing disputable is what severity are the consequences. care to read?
http://royalsociety.org/displaypagedoc.asp?id=13314

Let's also not that our country and society is CLEANER now than it was 100 years ago. That the American environment as a whole is healthier today than it was even a half century ago.

well, for particulates. co2 is worse than 100 years ago. so your statement is not fully correct. since co2 was being talked about, it's closer to incorrect.

Why are we focusing on limiting CO2 emissions when China releases Mercury unrestricted?


because other upcoming nations will add even more to the burden in the near future. and the cost to reduce greenhouse gases? 2% of the american nations income. .1% worldwide income. destroying the ecnomy is only a stall ploy.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003715537_warmingcosts21.html

here is one article outlining it. although i've read many that tout this same cost.
 
ocean acidification
So cap and trade isn't about global climate change or global warming, it's actually about ocean acidification.

Ocean acidification is a real hot topic around the water coolers and on the network TV?

here is one article outlining it. although i've read many that tout this same cost.
The numbers don't add up.

First, the ocean acidification argument, though still an issue of debate, particularly concerning the consequence, and more importantly MAN's impact on it, is NOT the reason or argument being used to trick the public into buying into these radical enviro-mental government bills.

And the costs you're sourcing simply don't add up and, as is so often the case, demonstrate the critical lack of economic understanding demonstrating by those on the political left. Economic decisions aren't static.

If the U.S. imposes needlessly expensive regulations and taxes on production, production will simply move. It also means that other companies won't insource their jobs to our country. What it means is that both the potential opportunities will never materialize, and the manufacturing that is currently here will simply leave.

That Seatle Times article is from 2008 and it's not even addressing the "Cap and Trade" tax nightmare that the administration and the House are working to get through the senate.

I'm not "anti-environmental."
I think we have a personal and national responsibility to maintain the environment and improve upon it for subsequent generations.
But any regulation needs to be responsible, measured, and reasonable.

And it doesn't do the broader environment any good if companies are driven out of the U.S. only to go to third or second world countries with absolutely NO regulations and can pollute without any consideration.
 
And it doesn't do the broader environment any good if companies are driven out of the U.S. only to go to third or second world countries with absolutely NO regulations and can pollute without any consideration.

And that my friends is the greatest joke about this whole cap and tax.

Nothing but Marxism. We have a global fight on our hands between the capitalists and the socialists.
 
And that my friends is the greatest joke about this whole cap and tax.

Nothing but Marxism. We have a global fight on our hands between the capitalists and the socialists.

GE is closing the remaining half dozen incandescent light bulb factories in Ohio.
Instead, we'll be forced to buy our incredibly toxic lighting from the CHINESE.
How much Mercury will they be pumping into the sky?

The entire international green movement is a clever means of redistributing wealth and power globally.
It's really quite diabolical.

They're taking well-intentioned fools, under the guise of "environmentalism", and using them to advance a very different social and economic agenda. The casual environmentalists are really being exploited and doing the heavy lifting for socialist interests internationally and corporate interests like GE.
 
So cap and trade isn't about global climate change or global warming, it's actually about ocean acidification.

not only, but it is another reason.

If the U.S. imposes needlessly expensive regulations and taxes on production, production will simply move. It also means that other companies won't insource their jobs to our country. What it means is that both the potential opportunities will never materialize, and the manufacturing that is currently here will simply leave.

funny. offsets are already a huge market commodity. the only ones that have need to worry are those who can't meet thier emissions targets. anybody surpassing thier targets has a huge profit potential in selling off thier excess allotment.

it isn't all the doom and gloom that the right scare machine would put forward either.there are already 182 nations signed under the kyoto protocol that have had varying degrees of success at it already. you make it sound like cap and trade is a new idea being crammed down the throat of american industry.
it's actually a burgeoning market in existence for more than 4 years.
cap and trade as it stands now in europe is that emissions must be reduced, but how it's done is left up to the business under the law.
if you can find a way to reduce your emissions to less than your alotment, this may be sold to one who can't.

this leaves a huge market and opportunity for innovation to lessen the emissions. it is not a cost to anybody compliant, just to those who are incapable of complying.
 
not only, but it is another reason.
So, you're just throwing stuff out there, hoping something will stick now...
Got it.

The global warming thing isn't working.
The global climate change all encompassing term isn't working well enough either, so you'll just toss some other junk speculation out there too.

If the "ocean acidification" idea doesn't work, maybe you can add some misleading video images, sort of like a polar bear "stranded" on a floating iceberg.....

funny. offsets are already a huge market commodity. the only ones that have need to worry are those who can't meet thier emissions targets anybody surpassing thier targets has a huge profit potential in selling off thier excess allotment.
That's not even an argument. You're basically just making excuses and misdirecting.

Personally, I'd prefer we have a manufacturing sector in this economy, not simply an market for carbon offsets.

In short, the issue isn't whether a "cap and trade" system should be used to help reduced pollution. The issue is what are they regulating, who sets the standards, and how is the system set up. Is it designed to simply gradually and responsibly reduce dangerous emissions, OR is it designed to radically change our economy and generate tax revenue?

it isn't all the doom and gloom that the right scare machine would put forward either.
I see, so it's only MOSTLY doom and gloom.
Big distinction there.

there are already 182 nations signed under the kyoto protocol that have had varying degrees of success at it already. you make it sound like cap and trade is a new idea being crammed down the throat of american industry.
It's worked wonderfully for Spain hasn't it?

it's actually a burgeoning market in existence for more than 4 years.
cap and trade as it stands now in europe is that emissions must be reduced, but how it's done is left up to the business under the law.
if you can find a way to reduce your emissions to less than your alotment, this may be sold to one who can't.

this leaves a huge market and opportunity for innovation to lessen the emissions. it is not a cost to anybody compliant, just to those who are incapable of complying.

You're drinking the Kook-Aid on this.
You have no familiarity with the Cap and Trade bill passed by the house, and you clearly have no idea what these taxes have done in Europe.

I'll elaborate in the next post.

But I'll make the SAME POINT AGAIN.
1- Environmentalism is a luxury of wealthy economies. Poor countries don't have the luxury of such things, they are driven by survival. As our country, and other countries, have become more prosperous, they have become CLEANER.

2- How are we helping the environment by imposing limits and regulations that simply drive manufacturing away to countries where there are NO enforced regulations?
We're basically banning incandescent light bulbs made in Ohio, forcing the public to buy toxic, mercury polluting ones made in China! Where is the logic in this? How many companies will simply move to other continents where you can get away with pouring your toxic byproducts directly into the field behind the factory?

You're grasp of economics, an understanding that is clearly shared by so many on the political left, is staggeringly naive.
 
July 10, 2009
The European Experience with Cap and Trade
by Ben Lieberman
Testimony

Testimony before
Committee on Foreign Relations
United States Senate


Delivered on July 8, 2009

My name is Ben Lieberman, and I am the Senior Policy Analyst for Energy and Environment in the Thomas A. Roe Institute for Economic Policy Studies at The Heritage Foundation. The views I express in this testimony are my own, and should not be construed as representing any official position of The Heritage Foundation.

I would like to thank the Subcommittee for European Affairs for inviting me to testify. What the Subcommittee is doing today is very important but was largely missing from the House global warming debate. That is, taking a look at the real-world experience in Europe with the Kyoto Protocol and the cap-and-trade approach to reducing emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases. Notwithstanding questions about the seriousness of man-made global warming, the Heritage Foundation is very concerned about the costs of this approach, which was embodied in the Waxman-Markey bill. Our analysis of that bill estimates higher energy and other costs for a household of four averaging nearly $3,000 annually and overall lost gross domestic product of $393 billion annually and $9.4 trillion cumulatively by 2035.[1] We also estimate over a million lost jobs. And even assuming it works to reduce emissions, Waxman-Markey has been estimated by climate scientist Chip Knappenberger to reduce the earth's future temperature by no more than 0.2 degree C by 2100.[2]

But will it even work? Will it even reduce emissions enough to accomplish that 0.2 degree? The European experience with cap and trade strongly urges caution. The Washington Post recently described it as "Exhibit A" of what not to do on climate, and for good reason.[3] The Senate would be wise to take a close look at Europe's track record with the 1997 Kyoto Protocol and the Emissions Trading Scheme adopted in 2005.

Most Western European nations are currently learning, the hard way, that ratcheting down carbon dioxide emissions in this manner is very difficult and expensive. In fact, most of these nations (not to mention other Kyoto Protocol signatories like Canada and Japan) have not been reducing their emissions over the past several years, though it should be noted that they are doing so now but only as a result of the recent recession.[4] Indeed, several were seeing faster increases since 2000 than those in the U.S., which has not been subject to such a scheme.[5]

And despite lofty rhetoric from many European nations about setting even more stringent future standards, we also see signs of fracturing in their cap-and-trade coalition. From German automakers to Italian steelmakers to nations that still rely on coal for a substantial percentage of electric generation, discussions about exclusions and delays and handouts are now very much a part of the debate in every European Union meeting on climate. The Russian cutoff of natural gas to Europe was also a reminder of the geopolitical risks of discouraging domestic coal under cap and trade.

We have also seen examples of fraud and unfairness in the process.[6]Given the similar politics here, where big businesses have lobbied for free allocations much more effectively than the little guys--consumers, homeowners, small business owners, farmers--it is quite likely that the inequities would appear here as well.

The reason for the failure of carbon cap and trade is simple -- reducing carbon dioxide from the existing installed base of energy-producing and -using equipment and vehicles is prohibitively expensive, and that isn't likely to change any time soon. Many nations committed to emissions reductions under the Kyoto Protocol are going to miss the targets (unless the recession lingers) and any talk of tougher targets is empty rhetoric.

The record in Europe suggests that the Heritage Foundation and others predicting high costs for Waxman-Markey are right, while those predicting postage stamp per day costs are wrong. If it really were postage-stamp cheap, Europe's emissions reduction record would be much better, and there would be no need to make excuses for it.

Further, a study by the Taxpayers Alliance estimates the cost of various green taxes in the UK is up to $1200 per household per year, and that to achieve only a fraction of what Waxman-Markey requires.[7] Again, this points to very high household costs for Waxman-Markey.

To the limited extent European nations have reduced emissions below business-as-usual levels, it has hurt their economies. Almost every Western European nation has had higher unemployment and energy costs than America, and a weaker overall economy, even as emissions were still rising. Far from seeing evidence of the bright new green economy some are now promising, we are seeing that cap and trade has contributed to the harm. For example, Spain has been cited repeatedly as the example of a successful clean energy economy and source of green jobs, but it is rarely mentioned that Spain currently has 18 percent unemployment.

There are reasons that may explain this seemingly counterintuitive result that cap and trade is not only the wrong approach for the economy but is also the wrong approach for reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Any sensible approach to global warming has to center on technological innovation as it applies to energy production and use. Breakthroughs such as ways to produce energy economically with low or no carbon dioxide emissions or improvements in energy efficiency make good sense irrespective of global warming.[8]

Innovation is what we really want. And we know from long experience that free economies innovate better than centrally planned ones. But cap and trade introduces a significant element of central planning and thus stifles innovation. We also know that strong economies innovate better than weak ones, but cap and trade weakens economies. Perhaps most importantly, stable economies innovate better than unstable ones, especially for something like energy where the investments often run into the billions of dollars and the payoffs play out over decades. But cap and trade adds a significant element of instability, which we have seen in Europe with wild swings in the price of carbon allowances, and energy companies less interested in long-term investment and more interested in short-term gaming of the system.

In conclusion, the economic realities of cap and trade are becoming clear in Europe. If we adopt a similar approach here, expect considerable economic pain for minimal environmental gain.


[1] William W. Beach, et al., "Son of Waxman-Markey: More Politics Makes for a More Costly Bill," Heritage Foundation WebMemo No. 2450, June 16, 2009, at http://www.heritage.org/Research/EnergyandEnvironment/
wm2450.cfm.

[2] Chip Knappenberger, "Why Waxman-Markey Is Not a Climate Bill," June 29, 2009, at http://masterresource.org/?p=3507#more-3507 (July 8, 2009).

[3] Editorial, "Climate Change Solutions Sen. Boxer is open to everything -- except what might work best," The Washington Post, February 16, 2009 at http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/15/
AR2009021501425.html (July 8, 2009).

[4] Press Release, "UNFCC: Rising industrialized countries emissions underscores urgent need for political action on climate change," United Nations, November 16, 2008, at http://unfccc.int/files/press/news_room
/press_releases_and_advisories/application/pdf/081117_ghg_press_
release.pdf (July 8, 2009).

[5] Energy Information Administration, "International Energy Annual 2006," Table H.1co2: World Carbon Dioxide Emissions from the Consumption and Flaring of Fossil Fuels, 1980-2006, at http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/
international/iealf/tableh1co2.xls (December 11, 2008).

[6] Open Europe, "Europe's Dirty Secret: Why the EU Emissions Trading Scheme isn't Working," August 2007, at http://www.openeurope.org.uk/
research/etsp2.pdf (July 8, 2009).

[7]Mathew Sinclair, "The Burden of Green Taxes," Taxpayers' Alliance, August 2008, at http://tpa.typepad.com/home/files/the_burden_of_green
_taxes.pdf (July 8, 2009).

[8] Iain Murray, and H. Sterling Burnett, "10 Cool Global Warming Policies," National Center for Policy Analysis, June 2009, pp. 20-22, at http://www.ncpa
.org/pdfs/st321.pdf (July 8, 2009).
 
Notice that hrmwrm still cannot dispute the FACT that carbon offsets are a FICTION. They are a scam. Snake oil.
 
Notice that hrmwrm still cannot dispute the FACT that carbon offsets are a FICTION. They are a scam. Snake oil.

I don't think he's viewing it as that.
I don't even think he's really debating the specifics associated with the current vision of "Cap and Trade" as it's understood to be presented by the House of Reps right now. But the general concept of "cap and trade" if it were proposed in a utopian kind of way. And on some level, I'd agree with the utopian idea. If we do need to reduce pollution, there are way to responsibly employ an economically responsible "cap and trade" system to GRADUALLY reduce levels of pollution. But that's not being done here.

It's the same kind of short sightedness that causes people to say, "revenue short fall, raise taxes some more" as though the act of taking the earning from a person will not disincentivize a person to generate as much wealth.

Cigarettes are the most interesting example of the political lefts understanding of economics.

They raise taxes on cigaretes because they think it's bad behavior and they want to reduce consumption by raising the prices through taxes.
This demonstrates that they must understand how the supply/demand curves work.

Then they continue to fund projects with the money, oblivious to the fact that as the higher taxes will influence the consumption and reduce the revenue.

It's absolute madness what's going on in D.C. right now.
 
I don't think he's viewing it as that.
I don't even think he's really debating the specifics associated with the current vision of "Cap and Trade" as it's understood to be presented by the House of Reps right now. But the general concept of "cap and trade" if it were proposed in a utopian kind of way. And on some level, I'd agree with the utopian idea. If we do need to reduce pollution, there are way to responsibly employ an economically responsible "cap and trade" system to GRADUALLY reduce levels of pollution. But that's not being done here.

sort of. not really utopian, although that would be nice. more of it's a start, and hopefully mistakes will be found and corrected.

but then there are examples like this

Of all the effects of the new rules, the rise in the price of power has aroused the most outrage. Much of the anger of consumers and industries has been aimed at the continent's utility companies. Like other firms, the utilities were given slightly fewer allowances than they needed. But instead of charging customers for the cost of buying allowances to cover the shortfall, utilities in much of Europe charged customers for 100 percent of the tradable allowances they were given -- even though the government handed them out free. Electricity rates soared.
But consumers ask why four big utilities that dominate the German market got to keep the money.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/08/AR2007040800758_pf.html

if these are the things taken into consideration for your right biased Ben Lieberman story, then it is corporate gouging causing some of the problems associated with this system.
then there's the offsets being bought in china for creating hydro, but that's another story.
 
Here is an interesting theory concerning Palin's political future.
 

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