1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
thats preposterous! everybody knows that engineers have nothing better to do all day than just design stuff way more complicated than it needs to be!
Pressurized vs Non-pressurized Cooling Systems
- Thread starter oddball
- Start date
thats preposterous! everybody knows that engineers have nothing better to do all day than just design stuff way more complicated than it needs to be!
They're all a bunch of college-educated liberals anyways! What would they know about the real world!
roncoinc
Well-Known LVC Member
Last summer my plow truck,i use for other things also,started using coolant.
i kept a bottle of 50/50 in it and added some time to time.
when snow came and i had to plow it leaked enough i could smell it and it used a lot more.
found it leaking from the radiator.
filled it up again,loosened the rad cap,leak stopped,used no more coolant plowing all winter
for what that's worth..
i kept a bottle of 50/50 in it and added some time to time.
when snow came and i had to plow it leaked enough i could smell it and it used a lot more.
found it leaking from the radiator.
filled it up again,loosened the rad cap,leak stopped,used no more coolant plowing all winter
for what that's worth..
roncoinc
Well-Known LVC Member
For every pound of pressure exerted on the coolant in the system, the static boiling point
of the coolant is raised by approximately 3° F .
https://durathermfluids.com/pdf/techpapers/pressure-boiling-point.pdf
Knowing that,,,,what IS the actual coolant temp of our engines,under normal conditions ??
of the coolant is raised by approximately 3° F .
https://durathermfluids.com/pdf/techpapers/pressure-boiling-point.pdf
Knowing that,,,,what IS the actual coolant temp of our engines,under normal conditions ??
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
Which part of the engine? Some parts are relatively cool, and others might be very hot. While 200 F might be the average, that doesn't mean that some spots in the cylinder heads aren't 250 F. The people (I won't say engineers since apparently that is a dirty word) who designed the system know the temperatures under all the expected operating conditions. I don't. Do you?
roncoinc
Well-Known LVC Member
How about where the temp sensor is ?
put in an actual accurate digital reading temp gauge,,read the temp under pressure and not under pressure,,..
or is there a scanner that will do that ?
would answer a lot of questions..
run open and closed and compare.
Don may then have something to work with,or not
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
How about where the temp sensor is ?
put in an actual accurate digital reading temp gauge,,read the temp under pressure and not under pressure,,..
or is there a scanner that will do that ?
would answer a lot of questions..
run open and closed and compare.
Don may then have something to work with,or not
How would that answer anything? We pretty well know that the temp sensor usually reads about 200F. That doesn't mean that it isn't 250 F a few inches in one direction at over and exhaust valve and 170 F over an intake valve.
We can keep debating this, but we are all missing the information needed to put it to rest. How will you instrument the insides of the engine coolant passages to get the temperatures at all locations? If you can, then will you put the car in an environmental test chamber and test at all the possible outside temperatures and humidity levels (affects how well the air cools the radiator)? Will this chamber also simulate heat from the sun? Certainly, all this can be done, and it has been done.
Thanks,Ron! I too have used the non-pressurized system to help stop leaks when the people couldn't afford new parts or big repairs. It's just a tool sometimes like you used it.
JoeGR,as far as hot spots.....I must not have any on either LS since I don't ever see bubbling in the degas tank and the levels stay the same while either hot level or cold level. I believe this hot-spot theory is allayed(not in EVERY case) by the tremendous flow of the coolant past it and doesn't allow it to bubble.
Of course,with a weak antifreeze mix it'll bubble right along. don-ohio^)
JoeGR,as far as hot spots.....I must not have any on either LS since I don't ever see bubbling in the degas tank and the levels stay the same while either hot level or cold level. I believe this hot-spot theory is allayed(not in EVERY case) by the tremendous flow of the coolant past it and doesn't allow it to bubble.
Of course,with a weak antifreeze mix it'll bubble right along. don-ohio
^)Last summer my plow truck,i use for other things also,started using coolant.
i kept a bottle of 50/50 in it and added some time to time.
when snow came and i had to plow it leaked enough i could smell it and it used a lot more.
found it leaking from the radiator.
filled it up again,loosened the rad cap,leak stopped,used no more coolant plowing all winter
for what that's worth..
roncoinc
Well-Known LVC Member
It would answer plenty as all the coolant has to pass by the temp gauge.
that is the unit that tells the computer what is going on an average in the engine.
it may only be an average but it all there is to go by.
what if with the cap loose the temp goes up ?
what conclusion would you draw from that ?
how about if the temp went down ?
what if it stayed the same ?
deductive thinking may not be one of my strong point but i think with some evidence an argument could be made either way
i keep my cap on tight.
substitute inductive if it fit's the process better
roncoinc
Well-Known LVC Member
Thanks,Ron! I too have used the non-pressurized system to help stop leaks when the people couldn't afford new parts or big repairs. It's just a tool sometimes like you used it.
JoeGR,as far as hot spots.....I must not have any on either LS since I don't ever see bubbling in the degas tank and the levels stay the same while either hot level or cold level. I believe this hot-spot theory is allayed(not in EVERY case) by the tremendous flow of the coolant past it and doesn't allow it to bubble.
Of course,with a weak antifreeze mix it'll bubble right along. don-ohio
I,m thinking hot spots could be mitigated by flow and nearby cooler coolant extracting heat,as a heat sink.
we know anti freeze has a higher boiling point than water but to much can raise the freezing point,thus the 50/50 mixture for freeze protection AND boil protection.
My thing is,,the pressure raises the boiling point,,but is it needed ??
I would imagine at altitude very necessary.
roncoinc
Well-Known LVC Member
Yes,,at 5K feet like 205 deg boils water ??
Yes,at high altitude I would run pressure........but about the 50/50.Ron....it's not as good at preventing boiling as a 60/40,which is what I use.
I just checked the Unpressurized V8's antifreeze after many miles of driving, and it's perfect, testing at 43 below zero. Probably just shy of 60/40. Hasn't lost any fluid,so that tells me NO air pockets or bubbles. I definitely have been keeping an eye on it since that thermostat replacement and bleedout of the air. don-ohio^)
I just checked the Unpressurized V8's antifreeze after many miles of driving, and it's perfect, testing at 43 below zero. Probably just shy of 60/40. Hasn't lost any fluid,so that tells me NO air pockets or bubbles. I definitely have been keeping an eye on it since that thermostat replacement and bleedout of the air. don-ohio
^)It's called AntiFreeze because that is it's main purpose in life is to keep the water from freezing. It's purpose isn't really to control the boiling point at all. Changing the boiling point is mostly a side-effect that just happens to be beneficial. It's purpose is to prevent the water from freezing in the block when you get subzero temperatures.
So adding 50/50 mix is good for changing the boiling point by about 14-15 degrees wether pressurized or not. That same 50/50 mix changes the freezing point by about 66-degrees, or from 32-degrees farenheit to minus 34-degrees farenheit. That's not even the 'optimal' winter mix. The reason 50/50 is chosen is because it's easy to do for the shade tree mechanic in his garage and it doesn't significantly impact the heat transfer properties of the water. For extreme winter conditions (think northern Canada here), you actually want to run 65/35 mix. That mix lowers the freezing point of water to somewhere around minus 62-degrees farenheit.
Heat in summer in most places short of the desert is around 100-degrees max or so. This means you can basically design the same cooling system and it will work in all places for warm weather. Cold weather, on the other hand, varies widely. In fact, in places like Phoenix, AZ you would do a summer mix to cure overheating woes. Going 25/75 coolant to water just because water is so much more efficient at heat transfer. Most Nascar teams don't even use antifreeze because of the impact it has on heat transfer. They just use water conditoners and corrosion inhibitors like Water Wetter.
FDR
Dedicated LVC Member
The coolant doesn't permanently turn into air when it boils. It turns into vapor. If it hits a hot spot and turns to vapor, it will continue through the system and cool down, turning back into liquid. Bubbling coolant tanks only happen when the whole system is above the boiling point.
Imagine if your home's radiator heater system just bubbled over because some parts turned to steam. That would make a mess every time it turned on. But alas, it turns back to liquid without seeing any bubbles in the tank
roncoinc
Well-Known LVC Member
Well,,,,,i had to read most of this article twice
" So, in conclusion, you should only use as much anti-freeze as is necessary for your climate and operating conditions, and those coolant “wetting” additives are generally a good thing to use. "
http://hellafunctional.com/?p=629
" So, in conclusion, you should only use as much anti-freeze as is necessary for your climate and operating conditions, and those coolant “wetting” additives are generally a good thing to use. "
http://hellafunctional.com/?p=629
Kid_Lyrics
Well-Known LVC Member
Driving to and from work the next day... literally driving there and back because work got cancelled. .left me with this once I got home... stopped at lights, cut off the car.. kept the car moving...
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
so what your telling us is that your (recently) un-pressurized system is still giving you problems and leaving the car loose did not fix your issue?
No one is surprised of this...
In fact this is what you were told would happen until the car is properly fix AKA replacing all of your worn out plastic cooling parts.
So either get used to not being able to get where you need to go, or replace all of the plastic cooling parts.
No one is surprised of this...
In fact this is what you were told would happen until the car is properly fix AKA replacing all of your worn out plastic cooling parts.
So either get used to not being able to get where you need to go, or replace all of the plastic cooling parts.
1LoudLS
Dedicated LVC Member
Well,,,,,i had to read most of this article twice
" So, in conclusion, you should only use as much anti-freeze as is necessary for your climate and operating conditions, and those coolant “wetting” additives are generally a good thing to use. "
http://hellafunctional.com/?p=629
Actually, since were not in a race car setup needing to squeeze every bit of performance possible out of the car, I would say to just follow the recommended process that the people who designed the car designed the car to use.... that way, you will know it will work no matter where you happen to go, instead of just hoping that you yourself just found the most amazing breakthrough in modern automotive history than none of the thousands of engineers didn't think of before you.
I would also throw in there as a key take away that unpressurizing your system only AFTER a failure has occurred would just be a band-aid and not actually making the repair that you still need to make...
also, I think it should be noted that un pressurizing your system after years of regular use is not going to save you from this regular maintenance, it may buy you some time, but sooner or later, your are going to have problems.
also if anybody want to change how any part of their car works, thats cool, but I would at least expect you to have some form of specific knowledge on the situation as to why it is a better choice... other than just "someone said it on the internet".
Unless you get that fan fixed, it will never be right.You can put up with some boilover,but if I couldn't get the fan fixed and I HAD to drive it to work, I'd put at least a 50/50 mix in there,KidL. How long til you get the fan fixed? don-ohio ^)
^)
FDR
Dedicated LVC Member
I disagree......in a pressurized cooling system it might turn back to liquid,but when Unpressurized it will remain a BUBBLE. don-ohio
How?
If liquids that turned to gas stayed as a gas at atmospheric pressure, distillation wouldn't work and I wouldn't have any alcohol to deal with my LS.
To quote Rig time and time again,
I AM a French model..... Bonjour......