Rough idle..

BigRigLS said:
Actually, in my experience with a #4 misfire, under load, (WOT) it would only rapidly blink the CEL on the dash and then go away during same drive cycle. Had to hook the scanner up to it, WOT, get the flashing CEL, pull over, read the code immediately to obtain it while it was there.

Without clearing it, would proceed to drive on and would clear it self before I got home. Once it sees a good drive cycle, where the misfires are within tolerance it forgets about it.

Could understand why I had no stored CEL codes even though I saw it blink on the dash during WOT.

Replaced all COPs and Coils and problem gone.

but there's more to the story, I ended up ofcourse putting in a new fresh MAF since one of the torque bolts was stripped in the housing,
alone with a fresh fuel filter. Was around the same time when my aftermarket intake was going on, so it all cleared up in one deal.


Anyhow, point was, a marginal coil will throw a flashing CEL but clears itself quickly during same said drive cycle as long as it remains within tolerance.
(based on my experience with a misfiring #4)
Click to expand...

I'm with Joe. The only indication of a failing/marginal coil I had was a slight miss going up a slight grade and an ETC Failsafe Mode warning. Never a flashing CEL or stored code. Yes, I have nice OBD II reader.
 
When my coils failed, I had a flashing CEL and my car would not go above 50 MPH, but I had two coils fail completely at the same time... two cylinders were not firing.
 
you fellas talking about cops should use the search function and put this whole side conversation in a thread thats actually confirmed to be about cops instead of hijacking the OPs thread about rough idle... you know, practice what ya preach bc it sets a bad example for the noobs like jjuncool!

ha
 
joegr said:
Sorry, but I have to correct that statement from my experience.
"Anyhow, point was, a marginal coil may throw a flashing CEL but..."

I have seen marginal COPs do neither (no flashing light and no DTC stored).
Click to expand...

No prob Joe, I can understand that, your experiences were different than mine, "will" may have been too harsh, "may" would've be a more appropriate word indeed.

"However" A coil that is already marginally failing, should you choose to put the peddle to the floorboard, I'm convinced you "may" find yourself facing a short flashing light on the dash. During my experience, I was at that time still new to the LS and was learning as I went, gathering info from this forum and checking with you guys, I knew I had a misfire, it wasn't always there but during WOT it would reveal it's self, couldn't get a code from it, so as I explained, had to read code as it was flashing and it was easy for me to duplicate at that time.

I would drive it all casual and the flashing CEL would go out by it'self and no code stored, had to stress test sort a speak and read on the fly.



LS4me said:
I'm with Joe. The only indication of a failing/marginal coil I had was a slight miss going up a slight grade and an ETC Failsafe Mode warning. Never a flashing CEL or stored code. Yes, I have nice OBD II reader.
Click to expand...

Ok, Ok, fine, you have a nice OBDII reader, should see mine ... point was, different experiences with marginal failing coils, yours didn't, Joe had different experiences, I had mine.

Trust me I get nothing out of sitting here typing bull crap ... I was able to get mine to flash during WOT and it read P0304 when I managed to read it before it cleared itself.

As you noted, it doesn't store the code and clears it's self during same drive cycle when back to within tolarance. I could also have had a stress test performed on them to discover this but as I mentioned I clued in on when/how/why ... end result as per advice from here, was all new coils and plugs. Problem done ... stock piled some of the last Visteon's for the V8 and purchased some custom hold downs for the Accel coils from Hite Performance for when that times comes and I switch to the yellow Stang COPs ... LOL.





jrand said:
you fellas talking about cops should use the search function and put this whole side conversation in a thread thats actually confirmed to be about cops instead of hijacking the OPs thread about rough idle... you know, practice what ya preach bc it sets a bad example for the noobs like jjuncool!

ha
Click to expand...

hehehe ... you have this way of bringing out the Queen G of this forum don't ya!

We know there is more to the OP's problem and "may" not be related to coils ... however, far too often, you know it, I know it and everyone else here knows it, the LS'es like to eat coils on a regular basis unless it's done right and not beaten on, on a daily basis. Think of the expensive Catalytic converters others are trying to save the man!

Goes without saying, there are furter items to check to clear a rough idle, MAF, fuel & air filter, looking for leaks and so one.

I know you don't like it but COPs and Plugs are priority on that list.
 
Scan results in....

Coil 4 is bad and she is burning rich.

I am told it is more than likely burning rich due to the bad coil.... sound right?
 
Yup, P0304
unburned fuel going straight into them expensive CATS.

Best advice is now to re&re all COPs and Plugs, make sure plugs gapped correctly and connectors clicked in and seated firmly.
Gently clean the MAF sensor, fresh fuel filter & air breather element, STP injector cleaner into the tank,
disconnect battery terminals >30min. on restart she'll adjust to the new air/fuel mixture.
 
Ty. Now for the initial question..... does this seem to be coincidental to me adding the subs and car coil went bad?

I don't see how the two could be related.
 
hhmmm, should have bought a lotto ticket at the same time, know what I mean?
pure coincidence I'm sure, pulling hard on the electrical, I don't think is the root cause of a coil to go bad.
I may be wrong but I don't see it happening. Coils deteriorate over time due to high heat cycling.
 
BigRigLS said:
hehehe ... you have this way of bringing out the Queen G of this forum don't ya!

We know there is more to the OP's problem and "may" not be related to coils ... however, far too often, you know it, I know it and everyone else here knows it, the LS'es like to eat coils on a regular basis unless it's done right and not beaten on, on a daily basis. Think of the expensive Catalytic converters others are trying to save the man!

Goes without saying, there are furter items to check to clear a rough idle, MAF, fuel & air filter, looking for leaks and so one.

I know you don't like it but COPs and Plugs are priority on that list.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=queen+g
the only reason yall have perpetual coil problems is because you all keep replacing your faulty oem coils with faulty visteon coils.
bwd (avail at advance auto very cheap with coupons) have a lifetime warranty. zero issues with them.
sacsfin3st said:
Scan results in....

Coil 4 is bad and she is burning rich.

I am told it is more than likely burning rich due to the bad coil.... sound right?
Click to expand...

theres no code that would definitively say coil 4 is bad. in doign all of the work you did, did you have to disconnect the battery or did the battery ever lose power and have to be jumped? if so, the problem is likely NOT a coil. there is probably a whole host of possible causes that are collectively causing your issue. although, if your coils are oem or similar and have over 60k they are probably on their last legs.

things you should address before coils/plugs:
new filter
clean maf
clean throttle body
new fuel filter
bottle of injector cleaner thru the gas
ensure proper octane of gas is always used
ensure battery is good and is not experiencing excessive draw between starts
^^after all of this is complete^^
then disconnect battery, immediately follow the battery reconnect procedure found in the owners manual to a 'T'. then immediately complete a drive cycle procedure found in the shop manual (search this forum if you dont have it) to a 'T'

if after doing all of that, and you still have the symptoms, your coils are shot and you should replace all 8 and possibly the corresponding plugs at the same time. at least ensure the plugs are gapped correctly. if you need to replace one, replace them all.
 
or ... Pass "start" don't collect a "drive cycle" and "replace all coils and plugs".


hehehehe


- - - EDIT: Have to correct myself here, it was a P0302 for me, #2, not #4. Just reviewed some old vids and found out.
 
... and thats another reason why you keep running thru them. your pcm adjusts to all the other poorly maintained components and compensates accordingly. wipe all the compensation data that is keeping it from acting up (via battery dosconnect) and you are gonna have a fun time getting the data back in order for it to run right. sure you can throw parts at it but why throw expensive coils at it when you might have life in the ones that are in it? why buy those coils when your maf hasnt been cleaned in 10yrs? why buy new coils bc you ran the wrong octane rating of fuel for a week? and why would you put new coils in it and then run the fck out of them with a bunch of other s hit parts that could be maintained for pennies?

dont bother answering. they are rhetorical!!
 
Who me? jrand, I've actually only replaced all my coils once since I bought it, one was bad, saved the other 7 as spares,
put 8 brand new Motorcrafts in, no problems since. Everything is in check underhood, so clean you can eat of of it.
 
I'm no expert here, but jrand saying there is no code to definitively say coil #4 is bad? I believe this is untrue. P0304 would certainly indicate a misfire in cylinder #4. Isn't that Ford wide? My 98 mustand had this code and it was the coil. Maybe if you want to be real specific you could state that the plug was bad, but those go hand in hand. Who wouldn't change the coil and plug together?
 
TorquE said:
I'm no expert here, but jrand saying there is no code to definitively say coil #4 is bad? I believe this is untrue. P0304 would certainly indicate a misfire in cylinder #4. Isn't that Ford wide? My 98 mustand had this code and it was the coil. Maybe if you want to be real specific you could state that the plug was bad, but those go hand in hand. Who wouldn't change the coil and plug together?
Click to expand...
I apologize if I am answering the wrong questions here because I can't (and I won't) see jrand's posts.

P0304 does in no way say that coil #4 is bad. (It might be bad, but P0304 does not really speak to that.) P0304 says that the PCM believes that cylinder #4 is not adding power (or enough power) to the crankshaft. This would normally be because #4 isn't firing. There are lots of reasons that #4 might not be firing, but a bad coil is only one of those reasons. It is also important to know how this is determined. The PCM looks at crankshaft position from moment to moment. It believes that #4 isn't firing if it doesn't see the crankshaft accelerate the right amount at the right time after #4 should have fired. Sometimes, it can't see this well enough and may identify the wrong cylinder. It may also fail to detect a marginal misfire.

Here's the things that I can think of off the top of my head that can cause misfire and could trigger P0304.

1. Bad or marginal coil.
2. Bad or marginal spark plug (I'm also counting a bad gap setting as a bad plug.)
3. Wiring fault between the PCM and the coil.
4. PCM fault with the coil driver in the PCM.
5. Bad fuel injector. (You can't fire the cylinder if there is no fuel in it.)
6. Wiring fault between the fuel injector and the PCM.
7. PCM fault with the fuel injector driver in the PCM.
8. Faulty valve(s) for that cylinder. (You can't fire it if there is no air to burn the fuel.)
9. Blockage of the intake for that cylinder. (Still need air, one person forgot and left a rag in the manifold.)
10. No compression on that cylinder, maybe due to failed rings.

So, you can see that a bad coil is only one of at least ten different things that can cause a P0304 code.

Now, there is a more specific code, P0354. P0354 says that the PCM has determined that there is a problem with the primary circuit for the #4 coil. This code should only have three possible causes.
1. Bad or marginal coil.
2. Wiring fault between the PCM and the coil.
3. PCM fault with the coil driver in the PCM.
 
joegr said:
I apologize if I am answering the wrong questions here because I can't (and I won't) see jrand's posts.


So, you can see that a bad coil is only one of at least ten different things that can cause a P0304 code.

Now, there is a more specific code, P0354. P0354 says that the PCM has determined that there is a problem with the primary circuit for the #4 coil. This code should only have three possible causes.
1. Bad or marginal coil.
2. Wiring fault between the PCM and the coil.
3. PCM fault with the coil driver in the PCM.
Click to expand...

hey if you guys cant read thru the lines, the almighty joegr is still blinded by tears bc i proved him wrong 2 yrs ago and he wants one you, his loyal minions, to lick his tears so he can see once more...

i would have to look in the book to verify everything he said, but i kept the gist of it in the quote, and it is correct. the unqouted portions sound correct as well. also note the bolded word 'should'.. RF interference among god knows what else could cause faulty codes.

the gist of it is: there is no code that says with 100% certainty that a coil (or the module on said coil, or the boot for said coil) is bad. theres a whole lot of sh_t that could cause a misfire too.
 
^ and here, I had such high hopes for you!
 
sacsfin3st said:
Got a little knocking going on...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ydh1JbapL4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I am thinking I may have the same problem as this guy here ....

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91145

If this is the case.. I was going to order this....

https://www.rockauto.com/dbphp/x,ca...756,d,2000_LINCOLN_LS_3.9L_V8_Timing_Set.html

And have the whole **** replaced, chain and all.

Any opinions would be greatly appreciated. .
Ty

Nate
Click to expand...
hey bubbie i responded to you above... what is the actual code it spit out? did you read/do all of this basic maintenance first?

theres no code that would definitively say coil 4 is bad. in doign all of the work you did, did you have to disconnect the battery or did the battery ever lose power and have to be jumped? if so, the problem is likely NOT a coil. there is probably a whole host of possible causes that are collectively causing your issue. although, if your coils are oem or similar and have over 60k they are probably on their last legs.

things you should address before coils/plugs:
new filter
clean maf
clean throttle body
new fuel filter
bottle of injector cleaner thru the gas
ensure proper octane of gas is always used
ensure battery is good and is not experiencing excessive draw between starts
^^after all of this is complete^^
then disconnect battery, immediately follow the battery reconnect procedure found in the owners manual to a 'T'. then immediately complete a drive cycle procedure found in the shop manual (search this forum if you dont have it) to a 'T'

if after doing all of that, and you still have the symptoms, your coils are shot and you should replace all 8 and possibly the corresponding plugs at the same time. at least ensure the plugs are gapped correctly. if you need to replace one, replace them all.
 
All that done xcept that crazy drive cycle, mechanic says that an emissions thing?? .. cel reset .. came back on last night. Unsure the codes yet.


voltage when car off.. 12.3-12.7
Voltage while running.. 14.2-14.8

Didn't have a load test done though. Just checked battery with a volt meter.

Anyone about the knocking???
 
sacsfin3st said:
All that done xcept that crazy drive cycle, mechanic says that an emissions thing?? .. cel reset .. came back on last night. Unsure the codes yet.


voltage when car off.. 12.3-12.7
Voltage while running.. 14.2-14.8

Didn't have a load test done though. Just checked battery with a volt meter.

Anyone about the knocking???
Click to expand...

when you disconnected the battery did you hold the positive and negative leads together for 5 mins to ensure the kam was cleared? old kam + new and clean parts = same old issues (if they were bad enough)
the injector cleaner could cause all the noted problems depending on the brand/formula you used. maybe an intake leak. maybe your fuel system is so jacked up that a bottle of cleaner and a new filter is not going to fix it.

pull the codes and actually follow the procedure. emissions sensors affect more than just emissions. read all about it in the service manual.

or just throw new coils at it and leave it uncalibrated. lots of people here do that and seem to be happy with it.
i doubt anyone can magically diagnose your car via video. could very well be bad coils or incorrectly gapped plugs or a whole host of other sh*t. if your mechanic cant figure it out you know to take it into lincoln/ford for diagnosis next time.
 
jrand said:
when you disconnected the battery did you hold the positive and negative leads together for 5 mins to ensure the kam was cleared?
Click to expand...

No.. was unaware of this... I also wasn't asking for a diagnosis so much an opinion, much like what is givin in other threads. :)

Did get the codes read again..

P0304 p0172 and p0174

Was told the timing being off could cause lean on one side and rich on the other....

He also noticed the coolant temp sensor was reading 225 but the car was barely hitting the first line on dash. Said that it wouldn't cause the 0304 but could also cause the 0172 & 0174 combo.

Think ill have him take a look at the timing chains/tensioners & guides. See if its showing excessive wear and replace if needed....


If anyone has any other suggestions, please chime in ..

Ty
 
sacsfin3st said:
No.. was unaware of this... I also wasn't asking for a diagnosis so much an opinion, much like what is givin in other threads. :)

Did get the codes read again..

P0304 p0172 and p0174

Was told the timing being off could cause lean on one side and rich on the other....

He also noticed the coolant temp sensor was reading 225 but the car was barely hitting the first line on dash. Said that it wouldn't cause the 0304 but could also cause the 0172 & 0174 combo.

Think ill have him take a look at the timing chains/tensioners & guides. See if its showing excessive wear and replace if needed....


If anyone has any other suggestions, please chime in ..

Ty
Click to expand...

opinion, diagnosis, whatever, a video is still not going to help anyone help you.
with all the issues you have you need to go to lincoln/ford dealer and pay the diagnostic fee. they will tell you everything thats wrong with it. then come back here and post the results before you have them fix anything. someone can likely give you decent, money saving advice then.

or throw coils at it and pray as the other have suggested (which is not horrendous advice at the moment)
 
Ugh.

Is it responsive to the pedal or does it bog down? does it sound like a bag of marbles under the hood?
If it does sound like hell while it's idling, you may or may not have already skipped the exhaust cam one notch on the timing.
You'll then need tensioners & timing chains, locking tool and additional process information found on this forum.

if not then -
Reset OBD II codes, disconnect battery, replace all coils along with properly gapped plugs, ensure no oil in plug wells.
Ensure all coil pack connectors click in firmly. Inspect intake for leaks, clean MAF, replace air breather element and fuel filter.
reconnect battery terminals back on, add fuel/injector cleaner to tank, start engine. take for drive.

Any more CEL ?

If you've been driving around with a misfire on #4 for a long time you possibly have already
half cooked your expensive CATs and it's not going to run to it's full potential with a stuffed up nose like that.
 
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