School killings possibly caused by teaching evolution - left tries to censor truth

95DevilleNS said:
Huh? Did you miss the part where it said "the amount of sodium added matches the amount removed"?

Huh? did you miss the part where his math shows a loss each year of 2.5*10^10 kg of salt?

By the way, I read some of the articles on that talkorigins site. Many of the responses don't actually address the claims, and some of them are out-and-out lies. I'd be careful if I were you.

Look up Haeckel's embryo drawings on the site.

He claims that the drawings have been edited out of textbooks because science is self-correcting. But I've personally seen up-to-date textbooks that still claim Haeckel's drawings are legitimate and still show them. That's fraud, plain and simple, because the whole thing was a hoax, and the guy doesn't even deny it.
 
95DevilleNS said:
You know what dude, I think I am done; all we're doing is copy/pasting and eating up massive amounts of web-space. Believe your 'science' if you like, it's no consequence to me. I do have one question though, which you failed to answer the three times I have asked it. Is the earth only 6,000 years old (Biblical) or it is far older? The people you used to back up your claims do not agree even with each other.

LOL at least my people are within a few thousand years of each other. Your peeps are millions and millions of years apart. Gee, I wonder which has more credibility.
 
fossten said:
LOL at least my people are within a few thousand years of each other. Your peeps are millions and millions of years apart. Gee, I wonder which has more credibility.

17K is not a few... But, you didn't answer the question yet again. Why?

When dealing with the immense amount of time we are, being off by millions of years (if that were the case) is not devastating. Like I said, science is ever evolving, 'we' learn off our predecessors and 'we' expand the work they started. Your guys (or at least some) go off the Biblical account and try to bend and twist science to fit their already biased views. Gee, I do not wonder who is more credible.
 
95DevilleNS said:
17K is not a few... But, you didn't answer the question yet again. Why?

When dealing with the immense amount of time we are, being off by millions of years (if that were the case) is not devastating. Like I said, science is ever evolving, 'we' learn off our predecessors and 'we' expand the work they started. Your guys (or at least some) go off the Biblical account and try to bend and twist science to fit their already biased views. Gee, I do not wonder who is more credible.

Do you hear how absurd your argument is? Being off by millions of years is okay since we're dealing with an immense amount of (guesswork) time? What if they're off by billions of years? Did you ever consider that? You do realize that they really have no way of proving how old anything is, right?

The answer to your question is that the Creation scientists use limits, not exact ages. For example, "the earth isn't older than 10,000 years" isn't an exact date, but it does prove that the earth can't be millions of years old. See the point?

Now it's my turn. Why don't you explain why your website lied about the textbooks and Haeckel's drawings, which have been found in textbooks as new as 2000, while exposed as a fraud decades ago.
 
Can you guys make this thread any longer?

2E9 +/- 2E6 has much more "credibility" than 6E3 +/- 17E3.

According to the "creationists", the earth may not even exist yet!

:rolleyes:
 
fossten said:
Do you hear how absurd your argument is? Being off by millions of years is okay since we're dealing with an immense amount of (guesswork) time? What if they're off by billions of years? Did you ever consider that? You do realize that they really have no way of proving how old anything is, right?

The answer to your question is that the Creation scientists use limits, not exact ages. For example, "the earth isn't older than 10,000 years" isn't an exact date, but it does prove that the earth can't be millions of years old. See the point?

Now it's my turn. Why don't you explain why your website lied about the textbooks and Haeckel's drawings, which have been found in textbooks as new as 2000, while exposed as a fraud decades ago.

No, being off by 10 millions years is not absurd when dealing with billions of years. If they have no way of proving how old anything is (according to you) then how do creationist prove their work?

Creationists are insane then if they are willing to "use limits". One cannot go off the 'fact' that every word the Bible says is infallible and then turn around and make exceptions when the science doesn't exactly match their dogma. You condemn scientist for being off millions of years when dealing in the billions, but you have no problem overlooking that creationist cannot agree and are off by a few thousand when all they're dealing with is a few thousand years. In comparison, creationists have the larger margin in error here.

I have not read the part about Haeckel in that website, so I cannot comment on it. As far as I know, Haeckel's embryonic work was for the most part dismissed since modern science has been able to photograph and document different embryonic stages. The guy did his research in the 1870's and he over simplified the development stages.
 
JohnnyBz00LS said:
Can you guys make this thread any longer?

2E9 +/- 2E6 has much more "credibility" than 6E3 +/- 17E3.

According to the "creationists", the earth may not even exist yet!

:rolleyes:

I hear ya, that is why I stopped the massive copy and pasting. It is a jackass move.
 
95DevilleNS said:
No, being off by 10 millions years is not absurd when dealing with billions of years. If they have no way of proving how old anything is (according to you) then how do creationist prove their work?

Creationists are insane then if they are willing to "use limits". One cannot go off the 'fact' that every word the Bible says is infallible and then turn around and make exceptions when the science doesn't exactly match their dogma. You condemn scientist for being off millions of years when dealing in the billions, but you have no problem overlooking that creationist cannot agree and are off by a few thousand when all they're dealing with is a few thousand years. In comparison, creationists have the larger margin in error here.

Typical. Evolutionists always resort to name-calling and demagoguing. Henke's article was no different.
 
fossten said:
Typical. Evolutionists always resort to name-calling and demagoguing. Henke's article was no different.

Typical, you cry like a hypocritical baby and dodge away. Boo-hoo, I said "insane", how horrible and insensitive of me.

Let me guess, in your eyes this isn't name calling?
fossten said:
What an absolute buffoon you chose to refute my article.
 
95DevilleNS said:
Typical, you cry like a hypocritical baby and dodge away. Boo-hoo, I said "insane", how horrible and insensitive of me.

Let me guess, in your eyes this isn't name calling?

If anybody's dodging, it's you. But that's fine, we can call it a day.

You know what dude, I think I am done; all we're doing is copy/pasting and eating up massive amounts of web-space.
 
fossten said:
If anybody's dodging, it's you. But that's fine, we can call it a day.

Yea, done with the copy&pasting, we were both plastering the thread with massive post like two jackasses.
 
Hello all...how are things? Hope all is well. Anyways, I read where Fossten said the earth is approx. 6-10,000 years old. I thought that was interesting. My brother, who is Catholic, is married to a Baptist. He's a good, honest family guy. Reminds me a bit of Fossten when he and I talk politics. I'm sure he and Fossten would be fast friends (he likes Bush and Rush and the Spin Zone retard too!) At any rate, I asked him how long it takes petroleum to be created. He's a petroleum geologist Phd who owns his own oil exploration company and he has several producing wells. I asked him if it took longer than 10,000 years. He said "most certainly". I then proceeded to tell him the content of this post. Being the nice guy that he is, all he said was "Interesting". While he and his wife really do believe in god and his teachings, he said he couldn't ignore the science he works with day in and day out. He said it has provided him ample evidence to believe the earth is older than 10,000 years. He studies geological timelines for a living, so I tend to believe him. So his honest, Christian opinion (based on years of work) is the earth is older than 10,000 years.

So does this mean since he doesn't believe in evolution even though he and his family are as christian as can be that he's going to burn in hell? Just curious...
 
RRocket said:
So does this mean since he doesn't believe in evolution even though he and his family are as christian as can be that he's going to burn in hell? Just curious...

Don't put words in my mouth. I've never said that. However, your friend is ignoring the obvious effect of a worldwide flood on the creation of petroleum. Let's not forget, either, that there may have been petroleum under the surface of the earth from the beginning.
 
It's not my friend...it's my brother. And with a Phd in Geology, I'm sure he's considered all things. He's not the type to make flippant conclusions without covering all the bases. ANyways..was just wondering..
 
World Wide Flood... A flood big enough to cover or almost cover the tops of the highest mountains, that’s around 29,000+ feet above the current sea level... Absurb.

There isn't enough water in the ground and the atmosphere to accomplish that, for that much water to rain down (even if the water existed) and accomplish the flooding in 40 days/nights, it would have been rain drops the size of VW Bugs raining down at hurricane speeds.

There would be monumental traces of the flood worldwide, a flood that big would have completely reworked the entire surface of the planet. Then there's the mixing of salt and fresh water, it would have created one huge brackish water planet, marine life would have died out since most (there are exceptions) sea life is either adapted to fresh water or salt water living. Nothing would have grown afterwards either, since most plants cannot live in salt laden soil.
 
RRocket said:
It's not my friend...it's my brother. And with a Phd in Geology, I'm sure he's considered all things. He's not the type to make flippant conclusions without covering all the bases. ANyways..was just wondering..

Gee...neither is my father, with a PhD in Physics, an MBA, and two Masters Degrees in Engineering. And he says evolution is bogus. What's your point?
 
95DevilleNS said:
World Wide Flood... A flood big enough to cover or almost cover the tops of the highest mountains, that’s around 29,000+ feet above the current sea level... Absurb.

There isn't enough water in the ground and the atmosphere to accomplish that, for that much water to rain down (even if the water existed) and accomplish the flooding in 40 days/nights, it would have been rain drops the size of VW Bugs raining down at hurricane speeds.

There would be monumental traces of the flood worldwide, a flood that big would have completely reworked the entire surface of the planet. Then there's the mixing of salt and fresh water, it would have created one huge brackish water planet, marine life would have died out since most (there are exceptions) sea life is either adapted to fresh water or salt water living. Nothing would have grown afterwards either, since most plants cannot live in salt laden soil.

What's absurd is your entire statement, considering that you've obviously never read the Biblical account of the flood. In the Bible, all the animals die out.

The key flaw in your reasoning is the word "isn't." Just because it's unlikely to happen today doesn't mean it didn't back then. You claim to know what happened millions of years ago but debunk what happened thousands of years ago.

Finally, there's plenty of evidence of a flood.

Noah’s Flood covered the whole earth

Many Christians today think the Flood of Noah’s time was only a local flood, confined to somewhere around Mesopotamia. This idea comes not from Scripture, but from the notion of ‘billions of years’ of Earth history.

But look at the problems this concept involves:

If the Flood was local, why did Noah have to build an Ark? He could have walked to the other side of the mountains and missed it.

If the Flood was local, why did God send the animals to the Ark so they would escape death? There would have been other animals to reproduce that kind if these particular ones had died.

If the Flood was local, why was the Ark big enough to hold all kinds of land vertebrate animals that have ever existed? If only Mesopotamian animals were aboard, the Ark could have been much smaller.1

If the Flood was local, why would birds have been sent on board? These could simply have winged across to a nearby mountain range.

If the Flood was local, how could the waters rise to 15 cubits (8 meters) above the mountains (Genesis 7:20)? Water seeks its own level. It couldn’t rise to cover the local mountains while leaving the rest of the world untouched.2

If the Flood was local, people who did not happen to be living in the vicinity would not be affected by it. They would have escaped God’s judgment on sin.3 If this happened, what did Christ mean when He likened the coming judgment of all men to the judgment of ‘all’ men (Matthew 24:37–39) in the days of Noah? A partial judgment in Noah’s day means a partial judgment to come.

If the Flood was local, God would have repeatedly broken His promise never to send such a flood again.

Belief in a world-wide Flood, as Scripture clearly indicates, has the backing of common sense, science and Christ Himself.

By the way, you can try to use the talkorigins site, but the article below trumps your rebuttal:

Problems with a Global Flood?

(a rebuttal of Mark Isaak’s “Problems with a Global Flood” FAQ in the Talk.Origins Archive)

© 1998 J. Sarfati & Creation Ministries International. All Rights Reserved.

Many are familiar with Talk.Origins, counted among the top pro-evolution sites on the Internet. Most of the people running it are ostensibly atheistic. Many had a Christian upbringing and are using evolution as a pseudo-intellectual justification for their apostasy. But they realise that rank atheism is repugnant to many, so they publish articles claiming that you can believe in God and evolution. It’s quite a sight to see people, known personally to us as rabidly hostile to Christianity, yet who are eager to assure inquirers that many Christians accept evolution. It reminds me of Lenin’s strategy of cultivating useful idiots in the West, who were too gullible to realise that they were undermining their own foundations. See also The Skeptics and their Churchian Allies

In one sense, it’s good to see articles like that by Mark Isaak, where the author displays his contempt for Scripture [and I don’t simply mean questioning biblical literalism, but direct mocking attacks against the Christian belief that the Bible is the inerrant written Word of God that “cannot be broken” as Christ Himself believed (John 10:35)], yet feigns concern that “a global flood makes the whole Bible less credible.” How do police investigators normally treat statements by witnesses who are blatantly dishonest?

The serious and objective student of this topic would definitely find it worthwhile purchasing John Woodmorappe’s book Noah’s Ark: A Feasibility Study, which answers most of the other objections. Isaak has supposedly “updated” his article to give the impression that he has responded to Woodmorappe. But it’s interesting to compare the two, and see that Isaak has hardly read Woodmorappe, who had more scholarship on each page than Isaak had in his whole article.

In other treatment of the scientific arguments, my article How did all the animals fit on Noah’s Ark? in Creation 19(2) answers a number of his points, e.g. on the number of animals; definition of a “kind”; why “creeping thing” (remes) means reptile, not invertebrate; feeding the animals and disposing of their waste; and disease germs. The Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal article Diseases on the Ark: Answering the Critics covers the last point in much detail. Many plants, marine creatures and invertebrates could have survived outside the Ark.

Woodmorappe’s book also has detailed chapters discussing such things as survival of seeds, insects, etc. Ironically, Charles Darwin himself performed experiments floating snails on driftwood, and submerging seeds in salt water, convincing him that they could have survived long sea voyages on driftwood and the like. Another article, Darwin’s Finches — Evidence for rapid post-Flood adaptation Creation 14(3):22–23, June 1992) answers the objection that there has been insufficient time for all the varieties to arise since the Flood. A more recent article demonstrates that a new mosquito species has arisen in the London Underground stations in less than a century — see Brisk Biters — Fast changes in mosquitoes astonish evolutionists, delight creationists, from Creation 21(2):41, March–May 1999.

Creationists have long pointed out that the biblical “kind” was broader than today’s “species”. Sorting and loss of the already existing genetic information has resulted in all the “species” we have today (this is not evolution, which requires new genes and new information). The article Ligers and Wholphins: What Next? (Creation 22(3):28–33, June–August 2000 ) covers the extent of the biblical “kinds” in more detail. This article shows that many so-called different species and genera can actually interbreed and produce fertile offspring, showing that they are really a single polytypic biological species. And animals that can hybridise, at least up to fertilisation, are members of the same created kind. Thus Noah would have needed comparatively few “kinds” of land vertebrate. Woodmorappe assumes that each “kind”would be the ancestor of all “species” in a modern “genus”, so only about 16,000 animals would have been on board. And this assumption is generous to the evolutionists — the article Ligers and Wholphins shows that many “kinds” could even each be the ancestors of a whole “family”; if so, then only 2000 animals would have been required on board.

Isaak and other biblioskeptics dismiss this idea, claiming that the branching into different species (speciation) could not have happened in the 4500 or so years since the Flood. But it’s the skeptics’ dismissal that is contrary to observable evidence, as Woodmorappe’s book shows. Ironically, studies of Darwin’s finches show that it would take far less than 4500 years for new varieties of finches to arise. In 1996, major conference on speciation inadvertently provided support for the creationist model of rapid, non-evolutionary speciation after the flood.

Finally, the Updated and Expanded Answers Book [reviewed here] has a chapter about how koalas got to Australia, as well as many other “unanswerable” arguments by Isaak. Migration patterns explain some of them, but another important factor is introduction by humans. That’s how the rabbit reached Australia, and the Australian marsupials could have arrived with post-Babel humans. It’s also very important to note that, despite the caricatures by Isaak and other bibliosceptics, Noah did not need to gather the animals from different parts of the world: Gen. 1:9 indicates that there was one land mass before the Flood, and Gen. 6:20 indicates that God brought the animals to Noah.

As for polar bears, the article Bears across the world … (Creation 20(4):28–3) points out that polar bears are descendants of an original bear kind. This is not evolution, since polar bears contain no new information—rather, they have lost pigmentation information, resulting in white hair, good for camouflage. Another mutation prevented the toes from dividing properly during its embryonic development, resulting in webbed feet — one of many examples of a defect that is useful in certain environments. See also Beetle Bloopers.

The balance of this essay is a response to a number of the “points” made in Isaak’s FAQ. While not exhaustive, this treatment should show adequately that his objections are completely without merit. [Some critics have ignored this paragraph and attacked me for not covering this or that argument by Isaak. But it’s good practice when dealing with anti-creationists stringing out a series of bogus arguments to pin them down on a few, and force them to concede before moving on]

Specialized Diets

Isaak asks: “Some, like koalas, require a special diet. How did they bring it along?” Actually, the koala does not require eucalyptus leaves, but can feed on other things as well, including the Monterey pine, not a native of Australia. Woodmorappe’s book has a whole chapter on this and other specialised diets! For example, the carnivores on the ark could have been fed reconstituted dried meat and fodder tortoises. Isaak also asks, “How did predators survive [after they left the Ark]?” Woodmorappe wrote a chapter on this as well, but Isaak doesn’t let on, as usual. Woodmorappe pointed out that they could have survived on fish, carrion and edible fungi. They can even survive on vegetables if they must.

Clean Animals

Isaak makes a bogus argument on clean animals. Woodmorappe’s book cites Jewish scholars who affirm that only a small circle of large mammals are to be counted as clean, and not just any divided-hoof ruminant. Note further that Woodmorappe does not base this on Jewish tradition, but on the plain statements of Deuteronomy 13, where the large clean animals are explicitly listed. The succeeding verse (the one about the cloven hoofs and ruminants; also in Leviticus 11) is merely an illustration of what the clean animals are like. An important hermeneutical principle is that a more elaborate verse dictates limits on a more general verse, and not the other way around.

Ark Stability

Isaak: How was the ark made seaworthy? The longest wooden ships in modern seas are about 300 feet, and these require reinforcing with iron straps and leak so badly they must be constantly pumped. The ark was 450 feet long [Gen. 6:15].

Answer: This argument is often parroted, but is just as bogus as the others. The Ark was built for stability, not movement. A flat-bottomed barge like the Ark wouldn’t have problems with sag. If the lower deck were made of logs, four layers deep, it would have been very sturdy. If they were teak logs, especially specially treated by being buried for a while, the ark would have been especially seaworthy. Woodmorappe points this out too, and much more, so Isaak is dishonest to ignore that. Korean naval architects have confirmed that a barge with the Ark’s dimensions would have optimal stability. They concluded that if the wood were only 30 cm thick, it could have navigated sea conditions with waves higher than 30 m (S.W. Hong et al., “Safety investigation of Noah’s Ark in a Seaway”, CEN Technical Journal 8(1):26–36, 1994. All the co-authors are on the staff of the Korea Research Institute of Ships and Ocean Engineering, Taijon.)

Isaak’s Dishonest Biblical Interpretation

Isaak tries to discredit the Bible as teaching a flat earth, but hopes readers won’t find out that Dan. 4:10–11 is actually the dream of a pagan king, not a teaching endorsed by Scripture. What next, claiming that the Bible teaches that cows and even ears of wheat are cannibalistic because of Pharaoh’s dream in Genesis 41?! Unfortunately, many anti-creationists don't even bother to check the Bible itself, and just copy from each other.

And whether the Bible indicates a stationary or moving earth, if Isaak scoffs at the idea of using the earth as a reference frame, then what about speed limit signs? Are they wrong because they mean, say, 100 km/hr relative to the Earth, not the sun? So why shouldn’t the Bible also use the Earth as a convenient reference frame? See Q&A: Countering the Critics [ Answers in Genesis] especially under “Does the Bible really teach a flat earth?”

Isaak doesn’t know what he’s talking about when he suggests that Genesis might be a parable on the grounds that Jesus spoke in parables. However, parables in Scripture are clearly stated as such, whereas Genesis is plainly treated throughout the Scriptures as historical literature. And Mt. 13:10 ff., Mark 4:11-12 and Luke 8:10 explain why Jesus spoke in parables — to hide the truth from the unbelieving masses. Jesus spoke in parables after the religious leaders accused him of casting out demons by the power of Beelzebub (Mt. 12, Mark 3). But these passages also explain that Jesus spoke plainly to His disciples. The Scripture is God’s Word to man, so He wants us to understand Him.

Isaak dismisses the idea of Noah’s taking along young dinosaurs by claiming that Gen. 7:2 speaks of “the male and his mate“. Perhaps he hopes that no one will actually check for himself. The King James and New American Standard Bibles correctly translate the Hebrew word ishshah as simply “female”. It says nothing about sexual maturity. We should also note that many reptiles keep growing well after sexual maturity, and since dinosaurs were reptiles, very large speciments were the very old ones. Also, dinosaurs eggs could not have been much larger than a football, otherwise the shell would need to be so thick that oxygen could not penetrate to the embryo. So even the biggest dinosaurs were once little. Noah certainly could have had young, small specimens of the large kinds of dinosaurs.

Isaak claims that the Flood account in Genesis is self-contradictory, apparently ignorant of the standard Ancient Near Eastern literary practice of making a general statement, then elaborating on specifics. The Bible first makes a general statement that a male and female of each kind of land vertebrate was to be loaded on board the Ark. Then it elaborates on this general rule by requiring seven of the very few clean animals. Gen. 7:9 says the animals went on to the Ark “by twos” (NASB), referring to the mode of entry, not the numbers.

Isaak: “How was the Ark loaded? Getting all the animals aboard the Ark presents logistical problems which, while not impossible, are highly impractical. Noah had only seven days to load the Ark (Gen. 7:4–10). If only 15764 animals were aboard the Ark (see section 3), one animal must have been loaded every 38 seconds, without letup. Since there were likely more animals to load, the time pressures would have been even worse.”

This might sound impractical on a superficial level, but Woodmorappe (remember, Isaak feigned familiarity with his book) had already answered that on p. 63:

Let us assume that the larger animals (i.e. those 100 kg when adults) entered the Ark no faster than do animals of similar size when killed and processed in slaughterhouses (i.e. 1000 hogs per hour [ref]). Smaller animals, of course, must have boarded the Ark of a rate of several times that of the larger ones. It is easy to see that the 16,000 animals could have boarded the Ark in, at most, five hours. Of course, this assumes single file entry, but there is no reason why several lines of animals could not have entered the Ark simultaneously, especially the many small to medium animals. Scripture, of course, does not inform us about the width of the Ark door.

Flood Myths

Here, again, Isaak is not to be trusted: There are flood, ark and Babel stories in Chinese legends, and even Chinese characters can be traced back to events in Genesis. In fact, there are thousands of global flood legends around the world, even with the Native Americans, New Zealand Maoris and Australian Aborigines. They have many striking similarities, despite what Isaak claims. This makes perfect sense, because all people are descended from eight people who did survive a global Flood. Naturally there are distortions in all the stories apart from the true account preserved in the Genesis record, which is to be expected from a mankind in rebellion against God.

I don’t know much about Egyptian legends, but I see no reason to trust Isaak when he says that they have no flood records. And Isaak relies too much on traditional chronology. Even some secular archaeologists like Peter James (Centuries of Darkness) and David Rohl (A Test of Time, Random House, London, 1995) have proposed shaving centuries off traditional dates. The traditional dates rely on second-hand accounts of the claims of an Egyptian priest called Manetho. But it’s likely that many of the dynasties that Manetho claimed were sequential were really concurrent, ruling in different parts of Egypt.

Isaak’s Theology and Logic

It’s amazing that, according to his FAQ, Isaak thinks he knows what an omnipotent being should do. But surely to have such knowledge would require omniscience on Isaak’s part. So is Isaak claiming omniscience for himself? But only God is omniscient. So is Isaak claiming to be God? But Isaak is an atheist. Ergo, God is an atheist …??!!

Isaak’s Chemical Incompetence

Isaak asked: “How were hematite layers laid down? Standard theory is that they were laid down before Earth’s atmosphere contained much oxygen. In an oxygen-rich regime, they would almost certainly be impossible.”

Answer: Isaak doesn’t understand basic chemistry! Evidently the quality control on the Talk.Origins site leaves a lot to be desired. They obviously care more about bashing the creationary perspective than scientific accuracy. Hematite is a highly oxidised mineral (Fe2O3)! So its formation is strong indication that there was lots of oxygen around, even in rocks dated by evolutionists at over 3 billion years old. When someone makes such crass blunders in areas that I can check (having a Ph.D. in chemistry), he has scarcely earned trust for himself in any other area. [Note: certain anti-creationists still refuse to admit the error, and instead change the subject to banded iron formations. But there’s no point debating people who refuse to concede defeat even on something as obvious as this]

Isaak’s Ignorance of Geology

Isaak: “How can a single flood be responsible for such extensively detailed layering?”

Answer: Isaak is evidently ignorant of the Mt. St. Helens volcano and sedimentation evidence of Berthault, et al., published in the Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal. These show that the layers do not need to form slowly, one at a time, but can form simultaneously by a self-sorting mechanism as the differently-sized particles roll over each other. A recent Nature article on spontaneous multi-layer formation shows that the secular journals have finally caught up with the creationary scientists, who published evidence like this 10 years ago — so much for the bigoted evolutionists’ claim that “creationists do no scientific research.” See the CENTJ article, “Sedimentation experiments: Nature finally catches up”. Isaak also seems unaware that Mt. St. Helens laid down 7.6 metres (25 feet) of finely laminated sediments in a few hours. More recently, Iceland’s recent “mega-flood” (jökulhlaup) also laid down many finely laminated rhythmites.

Isaak: “How do you explain the formation of varves? The Green River formation in Wyoming contains 20,000,000 annual layers, or varves, identical to those being laid down today in certain lakes. The sediments are so fine that each layer would have required over a month to settle.”

Answer: The self-sorting mechanism described above explains that. It’s simply nonsense that the layers would have to form slowly, and/or one at a time. The evaporite mechanism fails to explain the variation in the number of layers between the same pair of volcanic ash layers. More importantly, it fails to explain why there are fish and other fossils many different layers. They would have decayed if they were on the bottom for thousands of years being slowly buried layer by layer (the varves are 0.1 mm thick in one of the fossil-bearing sections). This applies even if the water was low in oxygen. (The excuse that alkaline conditions might have preserved them from decay is preposterous — we use alkali in our dishwashers because it breaks down organic matter! [On the “No Answers in Genesis” website (see critique), one of the thralls (lacking advanced science qualifications, as usual with that site) attempted a rebuttal to this: “We use alkali to clean dishes because it cuts grease. Organic matter is then removed by physical forces — a dishcloth in case of hand washing, a spray of water in an automatic washer. Mildly alkaline conditions might in fact protect the skeleton of a fish from both bacterial attack and softening from long-term immersion in water.” This person doesn’t even know why alkali “cuts grease”—it is by catalyzing the hydrolysis (breaking up) the ester linkages in the fat molecules (incidentally soap is produced this way), and alkali also catalyzes the hydrolysis of the amide bonds in proteins. In fact, alkali is more dangerous than acid in the eye, for example. So the idea of tissues being preserved by alkali is indeed preposterous]) See Green River Blues, Creation 19(3):18–19, June–August 1997.

Isaak: “How were mountains formed? Many very tall mountains are composed of sedimentary rocks. (The summit of Everest is composed of deep-marine limestone, with fossils of ocean-bottom dwelling crinoids).”

Answer: … Showing they had once been under water, as Genesis says(!). Note also, creationists do not believe that the Flood had to cover the mountaints at their present height; rather, much uplift happened after the flood. Psalm 104:6–9 (NASB-95) says:

“6 You covered it with the deep as with a garment; The waters were standing above the mountains.
7 At Your rebuke they fled, At the sound of Your thunder they hurried away.
8 The mountains rose; the valleys sank down To the place which You established for them.
9 You set a boundary that they may not pass over, So that they will not return to cover the earth.”


Isaak: “If these were laid down during the flood, how did they reach their present height, and when were the valleys between them eroded away?”

Answer: By rapid uplift, because of catastrophic plate tectonic movement and because the sediments were not yet consolidated.

Isaak: “Keep in mind that many valleys were clearly carved by glacial erosion, which is a slow process.”

Answer: …Which took place during the Ice Age, an aftermath of the Flood — see Mammoth: Riddle of the Ice Age, Creation 22(2):10–15 March–May 2000 . However, many creationists believe the evidence shows there were advancing and retreating stages of a single Ice Age, not many ice ages as evolutionists believe. Also, the polar ice caps most probably formed during this ice age, after the Flood, answering another of Isaak’s questions.

Isaak: “How does a global flood explain angular unconformities, where one set of layers of sediments have been extensively modified (e.g., tilted) and eroded before a second set of layers were deposited on top? They thus seem to require at least two periods of deposition (more, where there is more than one unconformity) with long periods of time in between to account for the deformation, erosion, and weathering observed.”

Answer: No, this is an interpretation. The Flood would have waves of erosion and deposition. There are no world-wide unconformities, consistent with most of the layers having been formed in the Flood.

Isaak: “When did granite batholiths form? Some of these are intruded into older sediments and have younger sediments on their eroded top surfaces.”

Answer: Not surprised. The “fountains of the great deep” would include granitic magma. As they were open for 150 days, some granite would force its way through newly deposited and still unconsolidated sediments, especially if it contained a lot of dissolved water making it more runny … see next paragraph.

Isaak: “It takes a long time for magma to cool into granite …”

Answer: Depends on the assumptions made — Isaak’s sources assume that granite plutons cooled from a single huge molten blob, and only by conduction. If there were a lot of water dissolved in the magma, then it could cool much faster, by hydrothermal circulation. Dr Andrew Snelling and John Woodmorappe presented a paper at the 4th International Conference of Creationism, Pittsburgh, PA, 1998, showing that granite can cool quickly. All granites are fissured, suggesting water involvement with their cooling. A popular version of their paper is “Rapid Rocks — Granites didn’t need millions of years of cooling”, from Creation 21(1):42–44, December 1998.

Isaak: “… nor does granite erode very quickly.”

Answer: If there is enough water and enough force, it certainly will. Dam bursts have resulted in water gouging caverns through reinforced concrete. There is an especially destructive process called cavitation at high flow rates. See also Iceland’s recent “mega-flood”, Creation 21(3):46–48 June–August 1999

Runaway Subduction

Isaak: “John Baumgardner created the runaway subduction model, which proposes that the pre-flood lithosphere (ocean floor), being denser than the underlying mantle, began sinking. The heat released in the process decreased the viscosity of the mantle, so the process accelerated catastrophically. All the original lithosphere became subducted; the rising magma which replace it raised the ocean floor, causing sea levels to rise and boiling off enough of the ocean to cause 150 days of rain. When it cooled, the ocean floor lowered again, and the Flood waters receded. Sedimentary mountains such as the Sierras and the Andes rose after the Flood by isostatic rebound. [Baumgardner, 1990a; Austin et al., 1994]

“The main difficulty of this theory is that it admittedly doesn’t work without miracles. [Baumgardner, 1990a, 1990b] The thermal diffusivity of the earth, for example, would have to increase 10,000 fold to get the subduction rates proposed [Matsumura, 1997. (National Center for Science Education, a pretentiously named organisation totally devoted to promoting evolution. Its roots are firmly in atheistic humanism)], and miracles are also necessary to cool the new ocean floor and to raise sedimentary mountains in months rather than in the millions of years it would ordinarily take.”

Response: Some of Dr Baumgardner’s papers are available online, e.g.: Computer modeling of the large-scale tectonics associated with the Genesis Flood and Runaway subduction as the driving mechanism for the Genesis Flood. As for Isaak’s criticisms, I e-mailed Dr Baumgardner, who pointed out that these critics had not read his work properly, and didn’t understand the science. This shouldn’t come as a surprise, since Isaak apparently didn’t read the Bible or Woodmorappe’s book properly either, and has demonstrated crass scientific incompetence in other areas. Dr Baumgardner wrote as follows:

Baumgardner: “If these critics had read my papers carefully, they would have learned that a low thermal diffusivity actually aids the runaway mechanism. Whether or not the runaway occurs at all depends on a competition between heat production due to deformation and heat loss due to thermal diffusion. Low, rather than high, thermal diffusivity assists this process.

The timing of the uplift of today’s high mountain ranges is actually a problem for the uniformitarians. The current uplift rate for the Himalayas of 1–2 cm/year, for example, implies 10-20 km (or 33,000-66,000 feet) uplift per million years! Again, if the critics had read my papers, they would know my time scale for the isostatic rebound is the centuries after the catastrophe rather than months.”

Isaak: “Baumgardner estimates a release of 1028 joules from the subduction process. This is more than enough to boil off all the oceans. In addition, Baumgardner postulates that the mantle was much hotter before the Flood (giving it greater viscosity); that heat would have to go somewhere, too.”

Baumgardner: “Indeed I do believe a significant fraction of the volume of the oceans was boiled away during the catastrophe. But since the atmosphere can hold so little moisture, the water quickly returned as cool fresh water to the ocean surface. This process generated large volumes of very dense brines, much of which was incorporated into the continental sedimentary record as extensive halite and gypsum deposits.

“I do not insist the mantle had to be significantly warmer than it is today. And higher temperature gives lower, not greater, mantle viscosity.”

Isaak: “Cenozoic sediments are post-Flood according to this model. Yet fossils from Cenozoic sediments alone show a 65-million-year record of evolution, including a great deal of diversification of mammals and angiosperms. [Carroll, 1997, chpts. 5, 6, & 13]”

Baumgardner: “I place the end of the Flood near the end of the Cenozoic, near the point that the Pliocene sediments begin in the record.”

Isaak: “Subduction on the scale Baumgardner proposes would have produced very much more vulcanism around plate boundaries than we see. [Matsumura, 1997]”

Baumgardner: “Newer calculations I presented at the 4th ICC [August, 1998] indicate the amount of volcanism associated with the runaway process is strikingly small.”

Schadewald on the Karroo Formation

Schadewald, cited by Isaak with approval: “Robert E. Sloan, a paleontologist at the University of Minnesota, has studied the Karroo Formation. He asserts that the animals fossilized there range from the size of a small lizard to the size of a cow, with the average animal perhaps the size of a fox. A minute’s work with a calculator shows that, if the 800 billion animals in the Karroo formation could be resurrected, there would be twenty-one of them for every acre of land on earth. Suppose we assume (conservatively, I think) that the Karroo Formation contains 1 percent of the vertebrate fossils on earth. Then when the Flood began, there must have been at least 2100 living animals per acre, ranging from tiny shrews to immense dinosaurs. To a noncreationist mind, that seems a bit crowded.”

Answer: Actually, Schadewald, who (like Isaak himself) lacks scientific qualifications as far as we know, is the pseudoscientist. John Woodmorappe, in Studies in Flood Geology, shows that a population density of 800 animals per hectare results if the supposed 800 billion Karroo vertebrates are evenly spread over Africa south of the Equator (10 million km2). But studies of present habitats over wide areas show that iguanid lizards can live at 889 animals per hectare, anoles up to 110,000, Manchuria island pit viper 10,000, Colorado rattlesnakes 1235. Also concentration of fossils can occur through massive flooding washing organisms into a basin, as shown by Dr Tas Walker, Geology and the Young Earth, Creation 21(4):16–20, September–November 1999. So there was nothing “unanswerable” about Schadewald’s argument, despite his arrogant claim.
 
While we're on the subject...

Not that you'll read this, but maybe somebody else will...

Helium Evidence for A Young
World Remains Crystal-Clear


D. Russell Humphreys, Ph.D.
Institute for Creation Research
April 27, 2005, Copyright © 2005. All Rights Reserved.
http://www.trueorigin.org/helium01.asp


Recently an anti-creationist geochemist, a part-time instructor at the University of Kentucky named Kevin Henke[1], posted on the Internet a 25,000-word rejection[2] of scientific evidence that the world is only about 6,000 years old, the helium-leak age of zircons (radioactive crystals) from deep underground. In politics, his procedure would be called “mud-slinging,” which in this case tries to bury truth under a mountain of minutiae. I normally don’t reply to Internet posts from skeptics because I want them to try to publish their criticisms in peer-reviewed scientific journals, the proper place to carry out scientific debates.

However, in this case I want to take the opportunity to share updated information about our research which will appear later this year in the RATE[3] “results” book[4] and in the accompanying book for laymen.[5] I also plan to submit technical details of this reply to a peer-reviewed scientific journal, the Creation Research Society Quarterly (CRSQ). If Henke chooses to sling yet more mud, let him try to do so in a scientific journal. The RATE helium research has been peer-reviewed and published in several different scientific venues. Critics like Henke must gird up their loins and undergo the same kind of scientific discipline—if they want people to take them seriously. If they refuse to do that, I plan not to reply to them further.

First I’ll point out what it is that the skeptics are trying to obscure. Then I will go through Henke’s summary of his criticisms point-by-point. Amazingly, in his entire fifty pages he specifies only two real errors of mine: (a) I misspelled a name in one of my references, and (b) I was not precise enough in my geological description of a rock formation. The only other possibly significant items are (1) a quibble about how much helium should have been deposited in the zircons, and (2) a minor mistake I made (which Henke failed to discover) in summarizing our results. Last I’ll analyze Henke’s tactics and try to plumb his motives.

The Evidence Henke Wants to Hide

Figure 1. Microscopic zircons. Photo by R. V. Gentry.

I’ll try to keep this simple, so for the scientific details, please consult the two most relevant publications, which are also archived on the Internet. I’ll call them ICC 2003[6] and CRSQ 2004.[7] Decades ago, Robert Gentry analyzed tiny zircon (zirconium silicate) crystals recovered from hot Precambrian (over 545 million years old according to the geologic timescale) “basement” rock in New Mexico.[8] Figure 1 shows some of the zircons he analyzed, between 50 and 75 microns (millionths of a meter) long.

Enough of the uranium in the zircons had decayed to lead to give them a radioisotope (radioactive element) age of “1.5 billion” years. But Gentry found that up to 58% of the helium that the nuclear decay would deposit in the zircons was still in them. This was surprising, because helium diffuses (leaks) rapidly out of most minerals.

Not knowing how fast helium leaks from zircon, I estimated what the leak rates would be when we measured them. In essence (of course the math is more complicated), all I did to get the estimates was to divide the amount of helium lost from the crystal by the time (assumed by each model) during which it had been lost. That gives us the leak rates for each of the two models. The “1.5 billion year” model has rates over 100,000 times slower than the “6,000 year” model, because the former has to retain the helium for a much longer time. Then in the year 2000, the RATE group published the estimates as numerical predictions for those two models.[9]


Figure 2. Model-predicted (red and magenta diamonds) and measured (blue dots) helium leak rates of zircons. The data fit the 6,000-year prediction very well.

Figure 2 shows the predictions as red and magenta diamond symbols. The bottom axis shows the temperature (in °C) of each sample in situ, that is, while it was in the granitic rock unit. (I have reversed the direction of temperature from what is traditional in such “Arrhenius” plots.) The vertical axis shows “diffusivity”, which is a measure of how fast helium leaks from a material. The vertical axis is tremendously compressed, representing a factor of one trillion increase in leakage rates from bottom to top. The black numbers under the diamonds are the percentages of helium retained in each sample.

The red and magenta vertical lines through the diamonds are the “two-sigma error bars”. These statistical error bounds were implicit in our reports, but we had not shown them explicitly in our graphs before now. The bars essentially show the 95% confidence limits I estimate for the accuracy of the predictions. The forthcoming RATE “results” book gives details on how I estimated the error bounds.

In 2001 we commissioned one of the world’s most respected experimenters in this field to measure the diffusivity of helium in the same-size zircons from the same borehole in the same rock formation. We used an existing mining company as an intermediary, and we asked it to not tell the experimenter about us or our goals. The experimenter, being a uniformitarian (believer in long ages) and not having read our prediction, had no idea what results we were hoping for. It was a truly “blind” experiment, and we (the RATE team) were eagerly awaiting the data.

Figure 2 shows the experimental results as blue dots with blue “2-sigma error bars” going vertically through them. If we repeated the experiments hundreds of times, we estimate the data points would remain within the caps on the error bars over 95% of the time. Again, the RATE “results” book (which has now passed through extensive peer review and is being proofread) will have the details on the error estimates.

To our great delight, the data fell right on the “6,000 year” prediction! This alignment validates the young-age model even for readers who are not experts in this field, because the probability of such a lineup by accident is small. The data resoundingly reject the “1.5 billion year” model. The experimenter, whose name is in one of our articles, stands by his data, even though as a uniformitarian he does not like our interpretation of them. (Even after several years, he has not offered an alternative interpretation.)

This sequence of events places the burden of disproof on the critics, because they must explain how, if there is no truth to our model, the data “accidentally by sheer coincidence just happened by blind chance” to fall right on the predictions of our model.

Rebutting Henke’s Charges

In his abstract, Henke summarized his fifteen principal charges. I’ll number them and quote them, in bold maroon text. I’ll answer each charge with no more detail than necessary to dispose of it.

1. “invoking groundless miracles to explain away U/Pb dates on zircons”
This means he does not find RATE’s “accelerated nuclear decay” hypothesis to his taste. But, as the ancient Romans said, “There’s no disputing about taste.” In other words, Henke’s personal preference in theories means exactly nothing to the rest of us. Moreover, it is beside the point. The main subject of my articles is the experimental data, and I offered only a few paragraphs about our hypothesis simply to explain what we think really happened. If Henke doesn’t like our explanation, let him offer his own. I’d be very interested to hear (preferably in a peer-reviewed scientific journal) how he thinks the zircons suffered 1.5 billion years worth of nuclear decay but only 6,000 years worth of helium losses!

2. “misidentifying samples as originating from the Jemez Granodiorite”
Henke means that I didn’t specify that the top 1000 meters or so of the Precambrian granitic rock unit in question might contain gneiss or schist instead of granodiorite. What he doesn’t realize is that “Jemez Granodiorite” is a name I invented (since the literature had not previously named it) to apply to the whole unit from about 700 meters depth down to below 4,310 meters. Our co-author John Baumgardner, a geophysicist, saw large portions of the GT-2 core at Los Alamos and picked our samples from it. He says:

Yes, there are occasional veins of material other than the coarse-grained granodiorite that forms the vast majority of the core. In making the selections I made of what samples to use, I purposely avoided these occasional veins. In fact I tried to select sections of the core well removed from such veins. So at least from my vantage point, the samples of core we used for the helium diffusion measurements were indeed coarse-grained granodiorite, not gneiss.

The important point is that, regardless of the name we put on the rock unit, the zircons throughout it have been measured to contain essentially the same amounts and ratios of lead isotopes,[10] and therefore have undergone the same amount of nuclear decay. The uranium, helium, and lead levels in our samples are perfectly consistent with the corresponding levels Gentry reported for his. The effect of variation from sample to sample is probably smaller than the 2-sigma error bars around our prediction. So here Henke is making a distinction without a difference.

3. “performing helium analyses on impure biotite separations”
That, of course, is a gratuitous slap at the quality of the ICR geological lab, which did that particular separation. In the lab’s defense, I would point out that their separation of biotite from another rock unit, the Beartooth Gneiss, was excellent. I’m judging that by the helium data from that unit in Appendix B of ICC 2003, which our experimenter called “remarkably linear”. Henke’s allegation is also unproven. Different localities, having different minerals, offer different degrees of difficulty with separation. The only way to gauge quality in this case would be to have another lab work on the same rocks and try to get a yet higher purity. I challenge Henke to procure his own samples of the same core from Los Alamos and to try to do a better separation himself!

However, haggling about the exact diffusivity of biotite is irrelevant, because as we pointed out in numerous parts of our articles, it is clear that that zircon has a diffusivity an order of magnitude lower than that of biotite in the low-temperature range of interest to us. That makes the diffusivity of zircon much more important to know accurately. Henke’s attack here is a good example of what I meant by “mud-slinging”—nasty, irrelevant, and intended to distract the readers from the important issues.

4. “dubiously revising helium measurements from Gentry et al. (1982a)”
On p. 16 of CRSQ 2004, in my notes in the reference “Gentry et al. 1982a”, I spelled out exactly why and how I, in consultation with Gentry, made two corrections in his tables (the main one being in the units he specified for his absolute amounts of helium). There is nothing dubious about it. Moreover, as I implied in that note, the corrections would not affect the main result of the paper, which depends on the percentage of helium retained, not the absolute amounts. Finally, as I pointed out on p. 9 of the same article, “the 6.3 ncc/µg yield of these zircons [our sample 2003] is quite consistent with Gentry’s data [as revised]”. Figure 7 on the same page shows how well the resulting 42% retention point interpolates between Gentry’s points 1 and 2. Without the revision, no interpolation at all would have been possible. That is very strong evidence that the correction was justified.

5. “relying on questionable Q/Q0 (helium retention) values from Gentry et al. (1982a)”
We checked Gentry’s values for retention with our own data on the zircons, as I wrote in CRSQ 2004. However I did not spell out the details of that calculation, so I plan to do that in the paper I intend to submit to CRSQ soon. Henke’s problem is with the value of Q0, as I will explain below.

6. “failing to recognize that the Q0 values (maximum possible amount of radiogenic helium in a mineral) for their samples were probably much larger than 15 ncc STP/µg”
In his Appendix A Henke derives his value for Q0, 41 ncc/µg (1 ncc = 1 “nano-cc” = 10-9 cm3 at standard pressure and temperature, STP). He is in the right ball park, but he is probably using too small a value for the percentage of alpha particles (helium nuclei emitted by the nuclear decay) escaping the zircons. The percentage came from Gentry’s paper, but Gentry may have misstated what he meant by the number. From our own measurements of lead in zircons and my own very rough estimate of alpha particle losses, I got a Q0 considerably less than 25 ncc/µg. Gentry’s original calculations are no longer available. But after discussing the matter with him, I’m inclined to think that even if he had an error in Q0, the error canceled out when he calculated the ratio Q/Q0, which is the crucial quantity in this analysis. In support of that is the remarkable alignment of the diffusion measurements with the predictions in Figure 2. The paper I plan to submit to CRSQ will discuss this issue more fully.

However, even if Henke’s number were correct, it would reduce the percentage retentions by only a factor of two or so. That is not anywhere near the factor of about 100,000 reduction that Henke needs. Put another way, Henke’s values for retentions would not move the predictions outside the error bars Figure 2 shows. This is a molehill, not a mountain.

7. “inconsistently interpreting already questionable helium concentrations from samples 5 and 6 to make them comply with the demands of their ‘models’”

I have already discussed this matter fully in sections 2 and 6 of ICC 2003. Sample 5 is the right-hand diamond of the predictions in Figure 2, the one at nearly 300°C with 0.1% retention. The fact that it fits the data so closely (one data point fell almost right on it) supports our interpretation. The total amount of helium in sample 6 supports our interpretation of that sample also. However, we could dispense with both samples entirely with no damage to our case at all. This is just another quibble about an inconsequential issue.

8. “seriously underestimating the helium concentrations in the zircons from 750 meters depth and not realizing that their Q/Q0 value for this sample (using Q0 = 15 ncc STP/µg) would be greater than one and therefore spurious”

This is an interesting issue, if you like to delve into details. It turns out that the problem is not with the data itself, but rather with my summary of it, and the fact that Henke believed my summary uncritically! This all has to do with Appendix C in ICC 2003, where our experimenter reported that, “This sample has a very high helium yield, 540 nmol/gram”, and where he reported the amounts of helium liberated per step in the “Helium 4” column of Table C1. He did not report the units for that column, so I assumed they were also “nmol/g” and added those units to the label of the column. I also assumed that the numbers in that column added up to 540, so at the end of section 9 of ICC 2003, I reported that the experimenter was reporting “a partial (not exhaustive) yield of 540 nanomoles of helium per gram of zircon.”

However, it turns out that the units of the helium column should be “ncc”. When we divide the sum of the numbers in that column (1794 ncc) by the mass of the sample (350 micrograms), we get 5.126 ncc/µg. Multiply that by a conversion factor (0.4462 ×10-4 nmol/ncc) and convert micrograms to grams to get 228.7 nmol/g. Dividing that by 540 nmol/g gives us a ratio of 0.4235, which agrees exactly with the bottom entry of the “Cumulative fraction” column. This means that 540 nmol/g is the total yield after melting the crystals, not a partial yield.

Converting 540 nmol/g to 12.1 ncc/µg and dividing by Q0 = 15.0 ncc/µg gives us a retention for the 750 meter sample of 80.7 %. I reported that as “~80” in Table I of CRSQ 2004. (I used the “~” sign because as I reported in CRSQ 2004, p. 5, the average size of the zircons in the 750 meter sample is unknown, making detailed comparisons with the other samples inappropriate.)[11] By that time our own sample 2003 (the one with 42% retention) had made me conclude that the 540 nmol/g in sample 2002 was a total yield, but I did not think of going back to Table C1 in ICC 2003 to check on things there.

The bottom line is that the retention fraction for the 750 meter sample is less than one, not “greater than one”, as Henke thought. I don’t blame him for being misled by my mistake, but perhaps he will want to blame himself. The critic wasn’t critical enough!

9. “not properly considering the possible presence of extraneous (‘excess’) 3He and 4He in their zircons”
Henke’s reason for raising this issue was his reasoning about the previous item. Because he thought that the retention fraction in sample 2002 was greater than 100%, he figured there had to be “excess” helium coming into the zircon from outside it. As the above item shows, his premise was wrong.

But let’s look at his scenario more closely. First, if the helium in the zircons were “excess” and came from outside them, it would have had to come through the biotite. As I pointed out on p. 9 of CRSQ 2004, the helium concentration in the biotite is two hundred times lower than the concentration in the zircon. That means, according to the laws of diffusion, that the helium is presently leaking out of the zircons into the biotite, not the other way around. Also, as I pointed out, the total amount of helium in the biotite is roughly the same as the helium lost from the zircon.

In Henke’s vague scenario, the source of the helium is “recent” (100,000 to 1.45 million years ago) volcanic magmas several kilometers away from our borehole. He is apparently assuming that conduits of such magma came relatively close to borehole GT-2. The conduits could not have broken through to the surface, because then they would have immediately vented their helium into the atmosphere. Henke wants “fluids” from the magma to carry helium through the mineral interfaces in the granodiorite, through the biotite, and into the zircons.

It is doubtful that such fluids could travel very far. First, the granodiorite is presently dry and well-consolidated, even at the surface. Second, the overlying rock puts the Jemez Granodiorite under in situ pressures hundreds to thousands of times greater than atmospheric pressure. Those factors would mean that the interface widths between minerals would be microscopic, perhaps only an Angstrom (the diameter of a hydrogen atom) or so. Henke needs to show—preferably with experimental data in a peer-reviewed scientific journal—just how far the helium could travel in this rock unit during the time he thinks is available. That would determine how close his conduits of magma would have to be. Then he would have to show geological evidence that conduits of basalt (solidified volcanic magma) presently exist within that distance of the borehole.

Next, Henke would have to show that the concentration (atoms or nanomoles per cc) of helium in the magmatic fluids could have been high enough to do the job. Our 15 ncc/µg value for Q0 in the zircons means there were at least 3140 nanomoles of helium per cubic centimeter in the zircons originally. (Henke’s value of “41” ncc/µg in item 6 above would require even more helium, 8590 nmol/cc.) The concentration in the assumed fluids would have to exceed that value in order to transfer helium from the fluid into the zircons. Yet the concentration of helium produced by uranium decay in typical basalt[12] (and hence in basaltic magmatic fluids) would be less than 80 nmol/cc, more than forty times too small. No transfer would take place. So Henke’s scenario requires extraordinary amounts of helium in his magmatic fluids.

But let’s assume for the sake of argument that the helium somehow gets into the zircons. Now it has to stay there. The magmatic fluids would raise the temperature of the zircons considerably higher than their present temperature, and temperatures would remain high for dozens of millennia. As I showed in ICC 2003, section 7, the zircons would then lose essentially all their helium—contrary to what we observe. Moreover, most of the helium outside the zircons has to disappear somehow, so that the biotite concentration would drop to its present low level, hundreds of times less than the concentrations in the zircons.

Henke’s scenario is pure conjecture. It depends on unknown factors to produce improbable coincidences. Even though this is his best shot (that’s why I’ve spent some time on it), it falls far short of credibility.

All the data point to a much more straightforward scenario: the source of the helium is the observed nuclear decay in the zircon, the helium is diffusing as observed out of the zircon into the biotite, and according to the observed total quantities not much of it has gone beyond the biotite into the surrounding minerals.

10. “listing the average date and standard deviation of their 2004 results as 6,000 ±2000 years, when [citing a two-] standard deviation (two-sigma) [error] of ±4000 years [would be] more appropriate”

(Brackets show my clarification of Henke’s confused grammar.) This is entirely a matter of personal preference. I made clear that my date was plus or minus one standard deviation (one-sigma), so it is easy enough for people like Henke to multiply that number by two to get a two standard deviation (two-sigma) error more to their liking. However, this is again just a ridiculous quibble. One or two standard deviations pale into insignificance compared to the difference between the helium leak age and his preferred age of 1.5 billion years—a whopping 750,000 standard deviations!

11. “‘fudging’ old Soviet data that should have been ignored”
So Henke believes inconvenient data should be “ignored”, does he? That offers insight into his attitude toward truth. Only people who blindly follow consensus thinking and modish fashions in science would dismiss data simply because it is “old”. The same kind of people try to find excuses to ignore data that go against the consensus opinion. That is exactly what Henke is trying to do with the helium data.

Henke’s word “fudging” is a lie about what we did, as anyone who wants to read section 5 of ICC 2003 can find out. As Figures 5 and 6(a) of that paper show, interpreting the ambiguous label of the Soviet graph in a reasonable way makes its high-temperature zircon data line up with everybody else’s zircon data.

But again, this is just a ridiculous quibble, because our conclusions depend in no way on the Soviet data. The purpose of section 5 was simply to explain why I didn’t understand those data until after we had made our own measurements.

12. “deriving ‘models’ that are based on several invalid assumptions (including constant temperature conditions over time, Q0 of 15 ncc STP/µg, and isotropic diffusion in biotite)”

Henke is counting on his readers not to have read my papers carefully enough to know that I considered and discussed all the factors he mentions. I pointed out [ICC 2003, section 7] that, “Our assumption of constant temperatures is generous to uniformitarians.” That is because their thermal history models require a recent (by their timescale) pulse of high temperature which would wipe out all the helium in the zircons. I further pointed out that the zircons would have to be colder than dry ice [CRSQ 2004, p. 9] for most of their history in order to save the 1.5 billion year scenario, and no geologist would consider such a low temperature to be in the realm of possibility. As I said in item 6, Henke’s hoped-for value of Q0 would make no practical difference in our results. And I discussed the assumption of isotropic diffusion in biotite, showing that a more precise assumption would make no practical difference in our results. Biotite has hardly any effect on the outflow of helium from zircon, as we demonstrated. Again, this is a molehill, not a mountain. Finally, if I used such poor judgment in choosing the simplifying assumptions for my “6,000 year” model, how did it happen to anticipate the data in Figure 2 so exactly?

13. “failing to provide standard deviations for biotite measurements (b values) and then misapplying the values to samples from different lithologies”
Again majoring on minors. As we pointed out in the papers, the diffusion rates for biotite and other micas were so much higher than the rates for zircon that it was clear the biotite affects our results to only a small degree. However, Henke has the raw data we published, so he can compute the standard deviations for himself.

14. “inserting imaginary defect lines into Arrhenius plots”
The curve fits, which have no imagination, show a numerical change of slope in the zircon data between 200 and 300°C. It doesn’t take much imagination to see such a bend in Figure 2. The change of slope implies a change in the dominant physical mechanism of diffusion at that temperature. However, it does not matter in the least to our results whether we call the low-temperature part of the curve a “defect line” or not. Yet again, this is a ridiculous quibble.

15. “deriving and using equations that yield inconsistent ‘dates’”
Equations are only as good as the numbers one plugs into them. Henke plugs garbage into the equations and gets garbage out. Figure 2 shows obvious-to-the-eye evidence for the dates I got. Notice how well the data fit the “6,000 year” prediction. Notice how far away the data are from the “1.5 billion year” prediction. All of Henke’s slung mud cannot obscure the obvious conclusion: the helium leak age is very much closer to 6,000 years than it is to 1.5 billion years.

That is the last of Henke’s summary. He makes other allegations throughout the paper, but evidently he did not think them good enough to put into his summary, so I’ll similarly disdain them.

Henke’s Tactics and Motives

The first thing to notice about Henke’s issues is how few of them there really are. For example, of the fifteen items above, six of them (4, 5, 6, 8, 9, 12) boil down to only one issue, how much helium was deposited in the zircons. Several other items repeated themselves similarly.

The second thing to notice is how peripheral they are. Not one of them has any chance of solving Henke’s real problem: how to keep helium in leaky minerals for over a billion years.

Third, notice how petty most of them are. One of my challenges in answering those charges was to find different words describing their basic character: “molehill, not a mountain ... distinction without a difference ... haggling ... ridiculous quibble ... inconsequential ... majoring on minors ... irrelevant”. Eight of the items (1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 10, 11, 12) fall into that class.

But despite his scarcity of significant issues, Henke chose to puff them up to enormous proportions with a torrent of hot air—fifty single-spaced pages using up my printer supplies. Why? Well, of course he is trying to bluff his readers. Unless the reader is technically well-informed in this specialty and wants to take the time to examine Henke’s monograph carefully, he is apt to think that where there is so much verbal smoke there must be some factual fire.

However, I suggest there is a more basic reason for the inflation: Henke may be trying to reassure himself that he was correct in rejecting the Bible many years ago. This brings us into the area of motives, which require a lot of guesswork. But it is worthwhile to do so because people like Henke seem to be the worst enemies of creationism, and creationists need to understand that. In an Internet review[13] of a book Henke contributed to, he asserts that he was once a sincere convert to Christianity but then “deconverted” himself:

I committed my life to Christ and I encouraged others to do so. However, after I read the Bible, and especially the false prophecies in Revelation and the countless contradictions in the Gospels, I realized that the claims of Christianity were false.

(Emphasis mine). The order of events here is interesting. First Henke commits his life to something or someone he considers Christ. Then he reads the Bible. That order is contrary to the order in 1 Peter 1:23, where the word of God causes the new birth:

For you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God.
"

It is possible that Henke had some exposure to the word of God at the outset, enough that, like the rocky soil in the parable of the Sower, he and others like him “believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away” (Luke 8:12). The previous verse (Luke 8:11) connects believing with being saved. If eternal life, after it begins with salvation, is truly eternal (some Christians might disagree with that), then someday Henke might be extremely shocked to find himself in heaven, though without rewards.

However, his hostility to Scripture when he encountered it is uncharacteristic of someone who has genuinely experienced the new birth. For example, after I was saved through reading the gospel of Mark and then accepting Christ as my Savior, my subsequent reaction to the rest of Scripture was the same as that of the prophet Jeremiah (15:16):

Thy words were found, and I did eat them; and thy word was unto me the joy and rejoicing of mine heart: for I am called by thy name, O LORD God of hosts.

So it is possible that Henke did not have enough initial exposure to the word of God to be born “from above” (literal Greek of John 3:3) and merely made a shallow commitment to someone other than the real Jesus Christ—perhaps to a human authority figure, such as a parent, teacher, or pastor. Later on, when he encountered different authority figures, perhaps skeptic professors or persuasive friends, he then transferred his commitment to them, especially since their view was obviously the consensus.

Whether he was genuinely born again or not, his present symptoms might look the same to outside observers (and even to himself)—a severe allergic reaction to the Bible and to anyone saying it is straightforward and accurate.

The allergy shows itself in his strong objection (just before his conclusion) to my citation of 2 Peter 3:3-7 as a prophecy condemning uniformitarianism. The medication he takes for that malady is (foolishly) to swallow the claim of theologically liberal “higher critics” that 2 Peter is “probably a 2nd century forgery.” He doesn’t seem to see that their reasons for claiming that are specious, motivated by a desire to do away with all the supernatural events of Scripture, such as the virgin birth of Christ. We should not naively accept claims from people (such as Henke himself) with such motives.

Henke also doesn’t seem to see that the passage is remarkably accurate about the biggest intellectual blunder (uniformitarianism) of our age, a mistake characteristic of only the last two centuries since the time of Christ. That accuracy alone (which he inadvertently supports by his vehemence) would support its validity. Last, Henke would not like to hear that I have based a theory on the creation of planetary magnetic fields[14] on part of the passage (2 Peter 3:5) he disparages, and that NASA spacecraft have confirmed the scientific predictions of that theory.[15]

Because of his flight from Scripture, Henke has to keep reassuring himself that it can’t possibly be true. That is why he has so much spleen to vent when he encounters someone saying, “Here’s scientific evidence that the Biblical 6,000-year timescale is correct!” Henke cannot abide it; he must expunge it from his mind. His battle is not so much with creationists as with Christ himself. I’m glad that the Spirit of God may be using some of this crystal-clear zircon evidence to convict one who has fallen away from the truth.

Notes
[1] Kevin Henke, Part-Time Instructor in geological sciences, http://www.uky.edu/ArtsSciences/Geology/faculty/henke.html [RETURN TO TEXT]

[2] Henke, K. R., Young-earth creationist helium diffusion “dates”, posted March 17, 2005 at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/helium/zircons.html See March 17, 2005 copy archived here. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[3] An acronym for “Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth”, an eight-year research initiative sponsored by several creationist organizations. See http://www.icr.org/newsletters/research/researchoct01.html [RETURN TO TEXT]

[4] Vardiman, L., A. A. Snelling, and E. F. Chaffin, editors., Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth: Results of a Young-Earth Creationist Initiative, Institute for Creation Research, El Cajon, California, and the Creation Research Society, St. Joseph, Missouri, expected publication date, on or before November 2005. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[5] DeYoung, Don, Thousands not Billions, Master Books, Green Forest, Arkansas, expected publication date, on or before November 2005. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[6] (ICC 2003) Humphreys, D. R., S. A. Austin, J. R. Baumgardner, and A. A. Snelling, Helium diffusion rates support accelerated nuclear decay, 2003a, in Proceedings of the Fifth International Conference on Creationism, edited by R. L. Ivey, Jr., Creation Science Fellowship, Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, pp. 175-195, 2003. See http://www.icr.org/research/icc03/pdf/Helium_ICC_7-22-03.pdf. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[7] (CRSQ 2004) Humphreys, D. R., S. A. Austin, J. R. Baumgardner, and A. A. Snelling, Helium diffusion age of 6,000 years supports accelerated nuclear decay, Creation Research Society Quarterly, 41(1), 1-16, 2004. See http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/41/41_1/Helium_lo_res.pdf. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[8] Gentry, R. V., Glish, G. J., and McBay, E. H., Differential helium retention in zircons: implications for nuclear waste management, Geophysical Research Letters, 9(10), 1129-1130, 1982a. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[9] Humphreys, D.R., Accelerated nuclear decay: a viable hypothesis?, in Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth: A Young-Earth Creationist Research Initiative, edited by L. Vardiman, A. A. Snelling, and E. F. Chaffin, Chapter 7, pp. 333-379, Institute for Creation Research and the Creation Research Society, San Diego, CA, 2000. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[10] Gentry, R. V., T. J. Sworski, H. S. McKown, D. H. Smith, R. E. Eby, and W. H. Christie, Differential lead retention in zircons: implications for nuclear waste containment, Science, 216, 296-298, 1982. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[11] For example, if the average length of zircons in that sample (number 2002) were larger than the average length in the other samples (about 60 microns), then the percentage of alpha particles retained would be higher. That would make Q0 higher than the value of 15 ncc/µg we used for the other samples, thus dropping the retention from 80.7 % to a smaller value. This affects Henke’s reasoning in item 8. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[12] Stacey, F. D., Physics of the Earth, John Wiley and Sons, New York, p. 245, Table 9.3, 1969. The table says the average amount of uranium in basaltic crust is 0.8 ppm by weight. Assuming that at most an equal amount of uranium has already decayed to lead (the thorium, having a much greater half-life, would not have decayed nearly as much), and that all the helium produced thereby has remained in the basaltic magma, gives an average helium concentration of less than 80 nmol/g in such magmas. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[13] Henke, K., Testimony to the failure of fundamentalism, posted December 31, 2001, http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/AKAJJROZZM9M4/103-0783137-0663064?_encoding=UTF8. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[14] Humphreys, D. R., The creation of planetary magnetic fields, Creation Research Society Quarterly 21(3):140-149, December 1984. Archived at http://www.creationresearch.org/crsq/articles/21/21_3/21_3.html. [RETURN TO TEXT]

[15] Humphreys, D. R., Beyond Neptune: Voyager II supports creation, ICR Impact, No. 203, May 1990, archived at http://www.icr.org/pubs/imp/imp-203.htm. [RETURN TO TEXT]
 
fossten said:
What's absurd is your entire statement, considering that you've obviously never read the Biblical account of the flood. In the Bible, all the animals die out.

The key flaw in your reasoning is the word "isn't." Just because it's unlikely to happen today doesn't mean it didn't back then. You claim to know what happened millions of years ago but debunk what happened thousands of years ago.

I have read it and I know Gen6:17 says Gold will destroy every creature that lives and everything on Earth will die.

Here's the thing though, Noah did not take fish or any sea life with him on the arc, so how did everything in the sea's, rivers and lakes continue to survive after the flood? It would stand to reason that God meant to kill everything on Earth or land, But if God did kill everything, how do you account for the animals that Noah didn't take on the arc? Did God re-create those but decided to have Noah lug around birds and clean animals?

It is far easier to dismiss false claims if they only happened a few thousand years ago since the evidence (or lack of evidence) should be readily present.
 
fossten said:
Not that you'll read this, but maybe somebody else will...

Helium Evidence for A Young
World Remains Crystal-Clear

Didn't you aready post the Helium argument several post back?
 
95DevilleNS said:
Didn't you aready post the Helium argument several post back?

If you'd take the time to read it, which you obviously haven't, you'd see that it destroys your rebuttal article from talkorigins.
 
95DevilleNS said:
I have read it and I know Gen6:17 says Gold will destroy every creature that lives and everything on Earth will die.

Here's the thing though, Noah did not take fish or any sea life with him on the arc, so how did everything in the sea's, rivers and lakes continue to survive after the flood? It would stand to reason that God meant to kill everything on Earth or land, But if God did kill everything, how do you account for the animals that Noah didn't take on the arc? Did God re-create those but decided to have Noah lug around birds and clean animals?

It is far easier to dismiss false claims if they only happened a few thousand years ago since the evidence (or lack of evidence) should be readily present.

How did freshwater and saltwater fish survive the Flood?

by Don Batten (editor), Ken Ham, Jonathan Sarfati, and Carl Wieland

First published in The Revised and Expanded Answers Book
Chapter 14

How did saltwater fish survive dilution of the seawater with freshwater, or how did freshwater types survive in saltwater? And how did plants survive?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


If the whole earth were covered by water in the Flood, then there would have been a mixing of fresh and salt waters. Many of today’s fish species are specialized and do not survive in water of radically different saltiness to their usual habitat. So how did they survive the Flood?

Note that the Bible tells us that only land-dwelling, air-breathing animals and birds were on the Ark (Gen. 7:14,15, 21–23).

We do not know how salty the sea was before the Flood. The Flood was initiated by the breaking up of the ‘fountains of the great deep’ (Gen. 7:11). Whatever the ‘fountains of the great deep’ were, the Flood must have been associated with massive earth movements, because of the weight of the water alone, which would have resulted in great volcanic activity.

Volcanoes emit huge amounts of steam, and underwater lava creates hot water/steam, which dissolves minerals, adding salt to the water. Furthermore, erosion accompanying the movement of water off the continents after the Flood would have added salt to the oceans. In other words, we would expect the pre-Flood ocean waters to be less salty than they were after the Flood.

The problem for fish coping with saltiness is this: fish in fresh water tend to absorb water, because the saltiness of their body fluids draws in the water (by osmosis). Fish in saltwater tend to lose water from their bodies because the surrounding water is saltier than their body fluids.

Saltwater/freshwater adaptation in fish today

Many of today’s marine organisms, especially estuarine and tidepool species, are able to survive large changes in salinity. For example, starfish will tolerate as low as 16–18% of the normal concentration of sea salt indefinitely. Barnacles can withstand exposure to less than one-tenth the usual salt concentration of sea-water.

Eels, like many sea creatures, can move between salt and fresh waters.

There are migratory species of fish that travel between salt and fresh water. For example, salmon, striped bass and Atlantic sturgeon spawn in freshwater and mature in saltwater. Eels reproduce in saltwater and grow to maturity in freshwater streams and lakes. So, many of today’s species of fish are able to adjust to both freshwater and saltwater.

There is also evidence of post-Flood specialization within a kind of fish. For example, the Atlantic sturgeon is a migratory salt/freshwater species but the Siberian sturgeon (a different species of the same kind) lives only in freshwater.

Many families1 of fish contain both fresh and saltwater species. These include the families of toadfish, garpike, bowfin, sturgeon, herring/anchovy, salmon/trout/pike, catfish, clingfish, stickleback, scorpionfish, and flatfish. Indeed, most of the families alive today have both fresh and saltwater representatives. This suggests that the ability to tolerate large changes in salinity was present in most fish at the time of the Flood. Specialization, through natural selection, may have resulted in the loss of this ability in many species since then (see Does God exist?).

Hybrids of wild trout (freshwater) and farmed salmon (migratory species) have been discovered in Scotland,2 suggesting that the differences between freshwater and marine types may be quite minor. Indeed, the differences in physiology seem to be largely differences in degree rather than kind.

The kidneys of freshwater species excrete excess water (the urine has low salt concentration) and those of marine species excrete excess salt (the urine has high salt concentration). Saltwater sharks have high concentrations of urea in the blood to retain water in the saltwater environment whereas freshwater sharks have low concentrations of urea to avoid accumulating water. When sawfish move from saltwater to freshwater they increase their urine output twenty fold, and their blood urea concentration decreases to less than one-third.

Major public aquariums use the ability of fish to adapt to water of different salinity from their normal habitat to exhibit freshwater and saltwater species together. The fish can adapt if the salinity is changed slowly enough.

So, many fish species today have the capacity to adapt to both fresh and salt water within their own lifetimes.

Aquatic air-breathing mammals such as whales and dolphins would have been better placed than many fish to survive the Flood, not being dependent on clean water to obtain their oxygen.

Freshwater trout can hybridize with (saltwater) salmon.

Many marine creatures would have been killed in the Flood because of the turbidity of the water, changes in temperature, etc. The fossil record testifies to the massive destruction of marine life, with marine creatures accounting for 95% of the fossil record.3 Some, such as trilobites and ichthyosaurs, probably became extinct at that time. This is consistent with the Bible account of the Flood beginning with the breaking up of the ‘fountains of the great deep’ (i.e. beginning in the sea; ‘the great deep’ means the oceans).

There is also a possibility that stable fresh and saltwater layers developed and persisted in some parts of the ocean. Freshwater can sit on top of saltwater for extended periods of time. Turbulence may have been sufficiently low at high latitudes for such layering to persist and allow the survival of both freshwater and saltwater species in those areas.

Survival of plants

Many terrestrial seeds can survive long periods of soaking in various concentrations of saltwater.4 Indeed, saltwater impedes the germination of some species so that the seed lasts better in saltwater than freshwater. Other plants could have survived in floating vegetation masses, or on pumice from the volcanic activity. Pieces of many plants are capable of asexual sprouting.

Many plants could have survived as planned food stores on the ark, or accidental inclusions in such food stores. Many seeds have devices for attaching themselves to animals, and some could have survived the Flood by this means. Others could have survived in the stomachs of the bloated, floating carcasses of dead herbivores.

The olive leaf brought back to Noah by the dove (Gen. 8:11) shows that plants were regenerating well before Noah and company left the Ark.

Conclusion

There are many simple, plausible explanations for how fresh and saltwater fish and plants could have survived the Flood. There is no reason to doubt the reality of the Flood as described in the Bible.

Recommended reading: Woodmorappe, J., Noah’s Ark: A feasibility study, Institute for Creation Research, Santee CA, USA, 1996.

References and notes
‘Family’ is one of the main levels of classification for fish. In fish there is plenty of evidence for hybridization within families—the trout/salmon family, for example—suggesting that families may represent the biblical ‘kind’ in fish.
Charron, B., Escape to sterility for designer fish, New Scientist 146(1979):22, 1995.
There is a huge number of marine fossils. If they really formed in the manner claimed by evolutionists (over hundreds of millions of years), then transitional fossils showing gradual change from one kind to another should be most evident here. But they are conspicuous by their absence. Furthermore, fossils of such things as jellyfish, starfish and clams are found near the bottom of the fossil record of multi-cellular organisms, and yet they are still around today, fundamentally unchanged.
Howe, G.F., Seed germination, sea water, and plant survival in the Great Flood, Creation Research Quarterly 5:105–112, 1968. Ironically, Charles Darwin similarly proved that seeds could survive months of soaking in seawater.
 
Your guy tries to fuse evolution and creation together but in a ridiculous time table.

Go throw your average garden variety goldfish into a low salt water mixture of sg 1.010, it will die within 10 minutes, throw one is full salt water 1.025+ and it dies in about 1 minute. (Yes, I have done this, I own fresh, brackish and salt water aquariums) The same goes for most (there are exceptions) tropical and cold climate fresh water fish and your guy claims that this is due to natural selection in the past 4k years or so? Rubbish.

There are huge gaps in his hypothesis, he doesn't account for amphibians which most species have a zero tolerance to salt, he doesn't account for insects which happen to be the largest and most diverse group on the planet, I think there is something along the lines of 350k+ species of beetles alone and yet they all survived?

As far as seeds surviving being soaked for 150 days in salt water, ya, some are adapted to surviving in salt water but not all or even the majority. Thousands of different species of trees, bushes, shrubs, flowering plants etc. all survived by seeds floating around in water world? That is a far stretch.
 
FACT CHECK: Bush Slashed Funding For School Violence Prevention
http://thinkprogress.org/?tag=Administration
In the past few weeks, the nation has been stunned by the rash of school shootings in Colorado, Wisconsin, and at an Amish schoolhouse in Pennyslvania. President Bush said he was “saddened and deeply concerned” about the shootings and plans to convene a summit of education and law enforcement experts to discuss federal action that can help communities prevent violence.

Bush’s rhetoric doesn’t match his record. He has consistently recommended pulling funding for school violence prevention programs:

– In 2006, Bush proposed a five percent cut for youth and crime prevention programs. Bush’s 2005 budget proposed a 40 percent drop in juvenile-crime prevention, following a 44 percent cut in 2004.

– The Bush administration has repeatedly recommended eliminating federal funding for the Safe and Drug-Free Schools
and Communities State Grants program, which works on juvenile-crime prevention.

– Since 2001, Congress has voted to retain the Grants program over the administration’s objections, but at reduced levels. Funding for the program was $439.2 million in 2001 but fell to $346.5 million this year, with $310 million recommended for 2007.

– More than half the nation’s school districts receive $10,000 or less per year to fight violence and substance abuse — “too little to make a difference” according to an Education Department official.
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Evolution teaching in schools the cause? I don't think so. To those who are interested, click the link above to read the article-there are a number of links to articles backing up the assertions made. Article is about mid page down.

To bryan, fossie and calabrio- let the name calling and dismissal of the article begin.
 

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