Stall converters....

[Former Member]

also, just to clarify incase you dont know why i said reread my post...

4.10's and slicks would also be a reason that i MIGHT mess with it. But as the car sits traction is already and issue. the highest it can launch is probably perfect for slicks

I said that meaning, if the car spins horribly on street tires. at a high rpm launch. a 2500rpm launch would probably be good for slicks. right now, honest to god, 1100 works best on my gen 1. the 60's havent lied to me nor have the 1/4 mile times. my fastest run was on a 1100 launch. my slowest runs were all on a higher launch.

 

[02LincLS]

also, just to clarify incase you dont know why i said reread my post...



I said that meaning, if the car spins horribly on street tires. at a high rpm launch. a 2500rpm launch would probably be good for slicks. right now, honest to god, 1100 works best on my gen 1. the 60's havent lied to me nor have the 1/4 mile times. my fastest run was on a 1100 launch. my slowest runs were all on a higher launch.

i can vouch for that 1100 launch with my gen 1 as well but i don't have a time slip to show the difference. i may try it (brakestand with tires ready to slip) again next year and just ease onto the throttle slower. it seems like this has been beat like a drum on this site though.

 

[lincoln00]

show me a STOCK 05+ GT with a better then 2.0 60'. You guys aren't understanding what i'm saying... Yes a 05+ mustang can run 13's.... So what! my point is that this car on Slicks 4:10 gears, a stall and the bottle say 100shot... you got a low 13 high 12 car.. oh and i dont need to find 20HP and 40 trq ill make it up with 4:10 gears!

your talking LIKE all that matters IS POWER! The gears and tire and HIGH STALL speed is what im relying on!

your basing your HIGH RPM launch on 3.31 gears and a STOCK stall. A aftermarket stall does more then stage at a higher RPM!.... they lock up different... So yes with the aftermarket stall it will launch better with the supporting mods (SLICKS gears)

yea my lincoln will do a burn out in water... and if you used the water box in your LS i can see you getting a 2.7 60'! that's a no brainer!


oh and your post about a gen 1 going 14.3 in the quarter mile down hill with the wind to its back and intkae and everything else that really doesnt do much to these cars.... yea a Gen 2 has been proven to run a 14.3 with just a tune smart guy! oh and a 14.5 from some member above me (NYC LS8) in this thread with just exhaust,intake and STOCK TUNE!!!

I have owned a gen 1 (look at my name) and it has nothing on my gen 2!!!

 

[lincoln00]

OH and you guys are the only ones talking about running slicks on a 14 second car....

 

[NYC LS8]

What's with slicks? Slicks are overkill and would do nothing but bog this car down. Drag radials might work a bit better

 

[02LincLS]

show me a STOCK 05+ GT with a better then 2.0 60'. You guys aren't understanding what i'm saying... Yes a 05+ mustang can run 13's.... So what! my point is that this car on Slicks 4:10 gears, a stall and the bottle say 100shot... you got a low 13 high 12 car.. oh and i dont need to find 20HP and 40 trq ill make it up with 4:10 gears!

my point was 4.10's, and a 100 shot alone may get you low 13's and even break into the 12's. Addition of DR's or slicks should get you 12's no problem because you can retune your N2O controller to be more aggressive initially.

your talking LIKE all that matters IS POWER! The gears and tire and HIGH STALL speed is what im relying on!

There's nothing wrong with that, and no, power isnt all of the equation. So you've made up the power difference between a Mustang with the gears and stall, what about the weight?

your basing your HIGH RPM launch on 3.31 gears and a STOCK stall. A aftermarket stall does more then stage at a higher RPM!.... they lock up different... So yes with the aftermarket stall it will launch better with the supporting mods (SLICKS gears)

Leads me back to the weight again. I'm guessing this car will bog more than the Mustang with the Mustangs stall installed <--- ha ha ha... :shifty: my point is I think you'll still fall short of the 'stang.

yea my lincoln will do a burn out in water... and if you used the water box in your LS i can see you getting a 2.7 60'! that's a no brainer!

yes, no water pit on street tires... no brainer...

oh and your post about a gen 1 going 14.3 in the quarter mile down hill with the wind to its back and intkae and everything else that really doesnt do much to these cars.... yea a Gen 2 has been proven to run a 14.3 with just a tune smart guy! oh and a 14.5 from some member above me (NYC LS8) in this thread with just exhaust,intake and STOCK TUNE!!!

I have owned a gen 1 (look at my name) and it has nothing on my gen 2!!!

apples to apples, yes. but apples to oranges (gen 1 CAI + exhaust + tune to gen 2 stock) they are roughly the same. read the 1/4 mile times thread start to finish.

One other important thing to remember is you lose most of the HP gain from your tune when on nitrous because you usually need to pull timing. The XCal is still good for fine tuning that depending on what fuel you use. That hurts the gen 1... giving up 28 HP to the gen 2.
It also seems that most people (not me really) hate drive by wire so much that they don't care about the 28HP difference.

 

[lincoln00]

What's with slicks? Slicks are overkill and would do nothing but bog this car down. Drag radials might work a bit better

good question NYC... ask the other 2 guys that keep talking about slicks on a 14's car

Leads me back to the weight again. I'm guessing this car will bog more than the Mustang with the Mustangs stall installed <--- ha ha ha... :shifty: my point is I think you'll still fall short of the 'stang.


That hurts the gen 1... giving up 28 HP to the gen 2.
It also seems that most people (not me really) hate drive by wire so much that they don't care about the 28HP difference.

from what the other guy said that 28 Horse power will make you so much faster!!! remember the mustang having 20 more hp then the LS! but there isnt much difference when you talking gen 1 gen 2 LOL!!!


I agree maybe the mustang stall will work but not right.. there is still the option for a custom built stall!

oh and i never said the Lincoln ls will go mod for mod with the mustang.. i said it can go in the 12's!

 

[02LincLS]

wow... you've mentioned them (slicks) in all of your replies so far. make up your mind about them. its easy...

yes on a limited slip, geared, sprayed, stalled car.

no on a near stock 14 second car.

i never said the LS would go mod for mod with the stang either, i implied you'd be lucky to match a stock Mustang with just gears and a converter in the LS. The way I took it, you claimed those 2 things would make up the power difference and therefore have comparable track times, and they very well could make up the power, but not the weight difference.

this thread is supposed to be about converters. we all agree a converter will help (i think) but we all disagree at which point we ourselves, if at all, would install one and we gave the reasons why.

 

[Former Member]

^ what he said.

and whatever dude. your like mutlipersonality or something. You were the one claiming the gen 2 had such a power increase over the Gen 1. thats why i said it was pissing me off how you imply that a gen 1 is just a total peice of crap.

whats mods were done to your gen 1? and i hope it was a v8

i just keep finding better things..

oh and your post about a gen 1 going 14.3 in the quarter mile down hill with the wind to its back and intkae and everything else that really doesnt do much to these cars.... yea a Gen 2 has been proven to run a 14.3 with just a tune smart guy! oh and a 14.5 from some member above me (NYC LS8) in this thread with just exhaust,intake and STOCK TUNE!!!

I have owned a gen 1 (look at my name) and it has nothing on my gen 2!!!

a gen 1 has also gone 14.5 on intake and exhaust and stock tune.

 

[ILLS]

One other important thing to remember is you lose most of the HP gain from your tune when on nitrous because you usually need to pull timing.

That statement is not accurate. While you will pull a few degrees of timing in the RPM's that you will be spraying in, I can assure you that there is one heck of allot more than just a few degrees of timing added to these cars via a tune. You will lose a little power when running retarded timing for nitrous on these cars but you will not lose a whole heck of allot. Surely not enough to say "you lose most of the HP gain from your tune when on nitrous". Not getting on anyones case here, just making sure information stays accurate. :Beer

 

[ILLS]

my point was 4.10's, and a 100 shot alone may get you low 13's and even break into the 12's. Addition of DR's or slicks should get you 12's no problem because you can retune your N2O controller to be more aggressive initially.

I have never done any personal testing on a Gen1 with nitrous but obviously have with a Gen2 so I will speak to that point. I am confident that a Gen2 LS would be able to hit 12's with the regular bolt ons everyone has, 100shot, and DR's alone. No need to have 4.10's to hit 12's. My Gen2 with CAI, Tune, 100 shot went 13.3 in the 1/4 mile spinning its ass off through all of first gear due to terrible traction on the nitrous. The big thing here is traction, though 4.10's will help also. I just don't think they are necessary to hit 12's if you have the above stated mods.

yes, no water pit on street tires... no brainer...

Doing a burnout in the water box with street tires is totally fine. You will have to back in versus pull through due to your front tire tread wanting to pick up and hold water. Just a few seconds will clean them off and make them a little stickier. Anything longer than that and most street compounds will tend to get "greasy". I think what Lincoln00 meant was doing a burnout in the water box is not an intelligent idea in the LS because of its open differential. Sometimes both tires will spin with an open diff, but most others they will not.

 

[02LincLS]

That statement is not accurate. While you will pull a few degrees of timing in the RPM's that you will be spraying in, I can assure you that there is one heck of allot more than just a few degrees of timing added to these cars via a tune. You will lose a little power when running retarded timing for nitrous on these cars but you will not lose a whole heck of allot. Surely not enough to say "you lose most of the HP gain from your tune when on nitrous". Not getting on anyones case here, just making sure information stays accurate. :Beer

No worries, I know your critiquing is constructive. I figured you could only add a few degrees to the tune because of the already high CR (needing 91 fuel stock and retuning to 93) and since its recommended to take 2 degrees off for every 50 hp, that that would mean most of the gain would be gone. How much timing do you typically add? Not saying you're wrong since you have the tuning experience, but I think there is merit to my statement. Maybe I should have said "some" instead of "most".

 

[02LincLS]

I have never done any personal testing on a Gen1 with nitrous but obviously have with a Gen2 so I will speak to that point. I am confident that a Gen2 LS would be able to hit 12's with the regular bolt ons everyone has, 100shot, and DR's alone. No need to have 4.10's to hit 12's. My Gen2 with CAI, Tune, 100 shot went 13.3 in the 1/4 mile spinning its ass off through all of first gear due to terrible traction on the nitrous. The big thing here is traction, though 4.10's will help also. I just don't think they are necessary to hit 12's if you have the above stated mods.

I agree with that. I think you would hit very low 13's with a gen 1 though. I dont have exhaust or CAI, but will that really buy me .3 to .5 seconds in the 1/4? (10hp for exhaust and 14 tops for CAI- maybe but it would be close)

Doing a burnout in the water box with street tires is totally fine. You will have to back in versus pull through due to your front tire tread wanting to pick up and hold water. Just a few seconds will clean them off and make them a little stickier. Anything longer than that and most street compounds will tend to get "greasy". I think what Lincoln00 meant was doing a burnout in the water box is not an intelligent idea in the LS because of its open differential. Sometimes both tires will spin with an open diff, but most others they will not.

A burnout in the box with street tires may not hurt your time, but its a waste of tires. I pull around it then back up to the damp area. Spin em just a few times as you get to dry pavement, then stage. The whole back end slides a little so I think I'm fortunate enough to spin both wheels. No guarantees there though, thats for sure. To that end, he is correct.

 

[Former Member]

Nitrous setups (if everything holds) i think could possible see high 12's with the added traction of slicks and a 125shot

Im on the same page with you guys.

as far as the burnout on street tires goes....youll see more gain if you just lower the tire pressure and drive around the box, rather then do a burnout.

 

[ILLS]

No worries, I know your critiquing is constructive. I figured you could only add a few degrees to the tune because of the already high CR (needing 91 fuel stock and retuning to 93) and since its recommended to take 2 degrees off for every 50 hp, that that would mean most of the gain would be gone. How much timing do you typically add? Not saying you're wrong since you have the tuning experience, but I think there is merit to my statement. Maybe I should have said "some" instead of "most".

Mind you that the BKT (Borderline Knock Table) which is the main table that you command spark timing in, though there is much more to spark timing than just that one table. This table is more or less a full spreadsheet based on an X and Y axis with corresponding cells spread all across. That would be one hell of allot of spark values to mention here, and frankly I don't want to give all of that tuning information away. What I will do is mention what the spark is doing in the upper load cells which is roughly around where you will be sweeping through at WOT anyways. Timing is advanced from stock anywhere between +13 degrees in the bottom end of the pull to about +7 degrees on the top end of the pull. You also have to factor in that the commanded WOT AFR is leaner in the performance tune which nets horsepower gain also. Both leaner fuel (still plenty safe AFR) and spark advance will both play their part in gaining hp. While 3 degrees isn't an insignificant amount to retard timing, it still will not kill a huge amount of power in these N/A cars. That was why when I had my LS and ran nitrous I used the nitrous tune all the time because it didn't hurt power much and I was always ready to spray at a moments notice. Now retarding 3 degrees on a forced induction car can sometimes mean 50+ horsepower loss but forced induction is a different ballgame altogether.

 

[ILLS]

A burnout in the box with street tires may not hurt your time, but its a waste of tires. I pull around it then back up to the damp area. Spin em just a few times as you get to dry pavement, then stage. The whole back end slides a little so I think I'm fortunate enough to spin both wheels. No guarantees there though, thats for sure. To that end, he is correct.

It is not a waste of tires if your 60', 1/8th, and 1/4 times improve because of it. Street tires are a harder compound than DR's or slicks so when you do a burnout you are not really wasting as much tread either. Just have to make sure that you spin them enough to get the water off, get em clean, and heat em up just a little. I usually do about a 3-4 second burnout with streets. I do a much longer burnout DR's and an even longer one still with slicks.

For those who intend to do this with their modded LS that does have an LSD make sure to start spinning them while in the wet area of the water box and continue to spin them all the way out of it. If you stop spinning inside and then idle out then you are almost guaranteed to pick water up again and track it forward in your treads. Kills the launch and the guy behind you doesn't like you either.

 

[ILLS]

as far as the burnout on street tires goes....youll see more gain if you just lower the tire pressure and drive around the box, rather then do a burnout.

I have many years of dragracing mild to wild vehicles at various dragstrips around the country that says otherwise. Dropping the pressure will help some but a small burnout will too, even on streets.

 

[lincoln00]

wow... you've mentioned them (slicks) in all of your replies so far. make up your mind about them. its easy...

yes on a limited slip, geared, sprayed, stalled car.

no on a near stock 14 second car.

i never said the LS would go mod for mod with the stang either, i implied you'd be lucky to match a stock Mustang with just gears and a converter in the LS. The way I took it, you claimed those 2 things would make up the power difference and therefore have comparable track times, and they very well could make up the power, but not the weight difference.

this thread is supposed to be about converters. we all agree a converter will help (i think) but we all disagree at which point we ourselves, if at all, would install one and we gave the reasons why.

I honesty think with 4:10 gears and a stall with drag radials... i think it could match the time of a STOCK 05+ mustang gt...

it would make up the weigh difference..

you have to understand that even thought right now at say 2500 RPM it will bog.. but with the high RPM and power in that RPM of a 4000 stall there will be no way to bog on street tires.. and you "could" hook nice on some drag radials... I see maybe 1.9 60' maybe even 1.8....

 

[lincoln00]

so what size stall would you go with ILLS? i'm going to say 4000. seems to be a nice round number... and the car makes good power there...

 

[02LincLS]

this was a popular mod when i had my t-bird so i just wandered over to the mark viii forums and saw one with a 4200. I think that should work for you too as the cars are similar.

 

[lincoln00]

yea the newer mark 8 weighs about the same as the
LS correct?

what year T-bird did you have? i use to have a 95 4.6L t-bird

 

[Rich88LSC]

this was a popular mod when i had my t-bird so i just wandered over to the mark viii forums and saw one with a 4200. I think that should work for you too as the cars are similar.

I have a 3500 stall and 4.10s in my Mark VIII. Don't have track times but the car launches hard and is still pretty reasonable driving it every day. I think 4000 would kill the drivability too much. And on the street I cant leave brake stalling or flashing the converter without lots of wheelspin but close to 3/4 throttle will have the tires squeeling and the car leaves hard and by 20' or so i'm all the way in it. Obviously this is not the same as an LS but the Mark is still a relatively heavy IRS car.

 

[lincoln00]

is that on drag radials?

 

[02LincLS]

yea the newer mark 8 weighs about the same as the
LS correct?

what year T-bird did you have? i use to have a 95 4.6L t-bird

i had a 94 with a grandma top... first year of the 4.6. my fastest run was (stock) 15.6 @ 88.5. Lowered with Intrax springs but cheap tires. Still handled amazing for what it was. A little too slow though, oh and the damn door was sagging so bad. To fix it would have meant removing the entire dash. Almost replaced it with a Mark8 but got a good deal on the LS in '05.

 

[lincoln00]

I beat the living :q:q:q:q out of mine... I ran straight pipes on that car as well... but throw a rod through the side of the block right around 97,000 miles