Stall converters....

[SPSully]

the big shot is sooooo nice though!!!! I got dumb one night and mashed it from a highway roll with taction control off..... thought I was back in my old stang! She broke em free and kicked sideways! not much but enough to know i was in love with the big shot!

 

[ILLS]

Of course I can't get out at the track and mash the throttle, but with just a little ease on the throttle, you can avoid slipping. Remember your car with the 100 shot probably made the same power as mine will with the 125 shot. Even if you have to pedal it out of the hole, it will probably earn you up to .4 second quicker ET to have the extra power.

I was just sharing what I thought the best 2 mods were in my eyes. For rolling starts on the street where traction is not really an issue, these two things are cheap and deliver a lot of power. I wasn't knocking the LSD at all, in fact its one of the things I plan to do next.

The problem with pedaling nitrous is that it is either on or off. That means everytime you let off the TPS switch for the nitrous controller resets, turns the nitrous off and then back on again when you are WOT. That means that you have a VERY large power difference between WOT and just below WOT. That makes it even harder to pedal it than a N/A or even supercharged car.

For example in that G8 GT I have boltons and a 100 progressive wetshot now. I knew I was going to have SEVERE traction issues while putting down over 450 rwhp in that car on stock tires. Regardless I took it to the track to see what I could do for the fun of it. Launched well off nitrous, at 3k rpms nitrous hit @ 25% then ramped to 100% by 4k rpms. Car spun its ass off so I let off just for a split second to gain traction and then get back into it. Got back into the gas and salvaged the run to a 12.80@111.7 MPH. This car is easily a low 12 second car with the mods it has. The trap speed shows it too. I pedaled that car about as perfectly as I could have and the ET still suffered greatly. If DR's were on it this thing probably would have seen a 12.3 ET. Pedaling will help you regain traction but not before losing a whole lot of ET. While it is easy to just rejet for a bigger shot of nitrous it is usually better to get to the point where you can actually hook the power up before moving onto even more power. If you do rolling starts then you have less to worry about.

Going from 100 shot to 125 shot will not drop you 4/10ths of a second in ET in the 12-13 second ET range; especially considering the additional traction issues. Taking the additional traction issues into consideration you would be lucky to drop 2/10ths off your ET. Now if you were in the 16-17 second ET range then it might, but not here.

I know you weren't knocking the LSD. I do think that your approach may need a little revision if you want to run the best ET's with your car though. People sometimes get caught up in the bigger power numbers and forget that it doesn't matter squat if it isn't put to the ground. I love it when I see a Fox Mustang running 11's with quite a bit less than 400rwhp. I see all the other guys saying "How did he do that?!?!?" They just don't understand that power is only a small fraction of the overall equation to good ET's. Oh well, people seem to care more about dyno numbers than ET's these days anyways. :slam

 

[02LincLS]

I agree with all of that. I just chose to do the fuel pump first and rejet simply because it was a simple 1 day project and cheap. This is my DD. I do care about my ET's and could care less about dyno numbers. My goal is 13.3 and I think I can get there even on stock tires.

Yes, the only pedaling you can do is off the start before the nitrous kicks on. After that, you have to use your controler to adjust for traction. It's doable.

On a highway start, its nice to nail it and have the extra horsepower instead of drag radials and limited slip. To each his own.

 

[ILLS]

Yes, the only pedaling you can do is off the start before the nitrous kicks on. After that, you have to use your controler to adjust for traction. It's doable.

There will be no pedaling that would have to take place before the nitrous hits with these cars unless you have 4.10's or something. That is why it is so critical to have the "traction ducks" in a row when spraying is because spray will make it much worse just by the way the power comes on and off.

It is doable but when you ease into the shot as softly as what these cars need to not spin their tires you gain ALLOT of ET also. No reason to make the weak link even worse and then try to bandaide for it with the progressive controller. The progressive controller can assist in controlling traction while spraying to an extent but it should never try to be used to replace real traction adding mods such as a LSD or stickier tires.

It sounds like you do allot of highway racing in which traction usually doesn't become a problem in the horsepower range you are in. So for that use what you describe is ok, but allot of others in here dragrace which means what I outlined will definitely apply to them quite a bit.

Again, no arguments or anything else. My sole purpose for these last few posts is more for others who are thinking of doing something similar to the mods that have been talked about in this thread; though I did use you as a pseudo-example.

 

[02LincLS]

I enjoy the track but its an hour ride. If it were closer I'd go more often... and I probably would have done limited slip before adding more power. I want to do the LSD next, but keep my gears/rearend solely for not wanting to modify the driveshaft and make a custom mount bracket (at least while this is my daily driver). I hope to get new wheels with some width (for looks and traction), and slap some DR's on. Hopefully thats enough to squeak into the 12's. If not, then maybe do exhaust and intake- it was a lot of cost for the gain before so I didnt do them yet, but now it makes a little more sense. I guess I would consider doing rearend/gears with higher stall if that could take me into mid 12's but I don't think it would do it. I'm guessing a 2nd gen with 125 shot, 4.10's w LSD, high stall, drag radials, sct, exhaust, and intake could only do mid 12's.

On a different note, how do you like the G8? My brother has an '00 LS and looking for something else now.

 

[ILLS]

On a different note, how do you like the G8? My brother has an '00 LS and looking for something else now.

I like it quite a bit. There are not many on the road, and probably will not be depending on what GM does. I have always liked unique cars so that fits me pretty well. It has pretty good power in stock form and is an overall very moddable car. Strong engine with bigger displacement, great flowing heads and intake, good transmission (though some doubt it), fuel system supports some good power in stock form, responds well to mods, tons of room inside including trunk, pretty cool stereo features, has aggressive lines and screams for a low cowl hood. So far the car has 1,600 miles on it and it has went from 361 hp stock to about 540 hp which makes it scoot ok now. At first it was slower than the TurboLS but that has been remedied now. C6 Corvette was out of the question because of the kids so this was the go between. I am liking it so far.

 

[SPSully]

I enjoy the track but its an hour ride. If it were closer I'd go more often... and I probably would have done limited slip before adding more power. I want to do the LSD next, but keep my gears/rearend solely for not wanting to modify the driveshaft and make a custom mount bracket (at least while this is my daily driver). I hope to get new wheels with some width (for looks and traction), and slap some DR's on. Hopefully thats enough to squeak into the 12's. If not, then maybe do exhaust and intake- it was a lot of cost for the gain before so I didnt do them yet, but now it makes a little more sense. I guess I would consider doing rearend/gears with higher stall if that could take me into mid 12's but I don't think it would do it. I'm guessing a 2nd gen with 125 shot, 4.10's w LSD, high stall, drag radials, sct, exhaust, and intake could only do mid 12's.

On a different note, how do you like the G8? My brother has an '00 LS and looking for something else now.

you can run the gen 2's gears that will help a bit. they'll fit right in your pumpkin, can be done with the LSD when you get one, and wont require any of the fabrication you mentioned. I would talk to ILLS on this one since he pioneered and did all the measurements for this kind of work. If im right, i know the 8.8 lsd's fit in the gen1 rear. The gen 2 gears fit in gen 1 pumpkins too. I'm not 100% but i think they can both be done and even go into a gen 2 from there. So you can make a 3.55 locked rear end for these cars with zero fabrication. Makes traction issues and those damn 3.31 crap gears a thing of the past! Like I said though, double check with him because i have made NO measurements!

 

[02LincLS]

If you have a gen 2 you need to use gen 1 axles I believe. I don't mind the granny gears for now. When 02LSE96LSC91SE84TC gets sticky tires and hooks up right, then I can see first hand how much the car improves, and make a smarter decision on gear change. I can scream over the line in 3rd now, going up to the gen 2 gears may require that shift to 4th. Each type of rearend has its negative aspects, but I like the LSD behavior for all types of driving.

 

[ILLS]

To go with LSD in a Gen2 LS you will need to swap to a Gen1 pumpkin too. The way that the differential is offset into the Gen2 LS stock pumpkin is not conducive to swapping a 8.8" LSD into it. Gen1 and Gen2 LS's can have an LSD rear end with either 3.31 or 3.58 gears without any real fabrication, just some parts swapping. Whenever you want to move to different gears is when the extra fabrication, for both Gen's, comes into play.

 

[dirtyd0g]

Allot of your Marks probably have LSD's. The LS's never came with an LSD so they are a one wheel wonder until you swap to a LSD or locking diff.

No Mark ever came with an LSD they all had traction control.
Sadly a converter on these cars (LS) isn't a huge gain like most cars. The LS's had very high stall factory converters They stall 2500-2800 the way they are. The stock units can be adjusted for about 3200 very easily. I think the most important change on them is to get rid of the noisy and troublesome twin disk and put a billet single disk damper in them.
I posted inside views of these newer converters on another forum a while back. I will see if I can locate a link and repost it here.
Alan

 

[Rich88LSC]

As far what would a converter do for the car..... ever driven a stalled car? the launch is not the only gain! it keeps the car in its power band.

+1

LS1 camaro guys (similar power band vs gearing issues as us) stalled before gears dont see gains from gears. the ones who gear first then stall wish they stalled first.

I stalled first in the Mark VIII. No track times before and after but the car picked up but killed drivability. 4.10s were without a doubt worth it though. Helped with drivability as well. Same as the LSX example though, different car, different motor, different trans.

 

[Rich88LSC]

As far what would a converter do for the car..... ever driven a stalled car? the launch is not the only gain! it keeps the car in its power band.

+1

LS1 camaro guys (similar power band vs gearing issues as us) stalled before gears dont see gains from gears. the ones who gear first then stall wish they stalled first.

I stalled first in the Mark VIII. No track times before and after but the car picked up but killed drivability. 4.10s were without a doubt worth it though. Helped with drivability as well. Same as the LSX example though, different car, different motor, different trans.

And you beat me to it Alan. Mark VIIIs never had LSDs stock but since they are 8.8"s it's a lot easier to add one.

 

[ILLS]

No Mark ever came with an LSD they all had traction control.
Sadly a converter on these cars (LS) isn't a huge gain like most cars. The LS's had very high stall factory converters They stall 2500-2800 the way they are. The stock units can be adjusted for about 3200 very easily. I think the most important change on them is to get rid of the noisy and troublesome twin disk and put a billet single disk damper in them.
I posted inside views of these newer converters on another forum a while back. I will see if I can locate a link and repost it here.
Alan

For some reason I guess I thought some years did come stock with them. The meaning of that original post was geared more towards the Mark's having the LSD's from more an aftermarket standpoint. There are allot of Mark's on this board running around with LSD's in them.

 

[ILLS]

I stalled first in the Mark VIII. No track times before and after but the car picked up but killed drivability.

If you stall it too high driveability will suffer. That is why a person has to find the right stall for the combo they are running. A stall that works well on one combo may have totally characteristics on another combo.

 

[Rich88LSC]

If you stall it too high driveability will suffer. That is why a person has to find the right stall for the combo they are running. A stall that works well on one combo may have totally characteristics on another combo.

Your right. I picked the stall speed knowing I would be going to 4.10s. I was surprised how much difference in drivability there was from a gear change though.

 

[SPSully]

No Mark ever came with an LSD they all had traction control.
Sadly a converter on these cars (LS) isn't a huge gain like most cars. The LS's had very high stall factory converters They stall 2500-2800 the way they are. The stock units can be adjusted for about 3200 very easily. I think the most important change on them is to get rid of the noisy and troublesome twin disk and put a billet single disk damper in them.
I posted inside views of these newer converters on another forum a while back. I will see if I can locate a link and repost it here.
Alan

and whats your source?

 

[dirtyd0g]

and whats your source?

Source? I made those pictures and that thread. I am my source.
Alan