The Hyperbole of a Conservative

Calabrio

Dedicated LVC Member
Joined
Oct 14, 2005
Messages
8,793
Reaction score
3
Location
Sarasota
The Hyperbole of a Conservative
by George Will

WASHINGTON -- Conservatism's current intellectual chaos reverberated in the Republican ticket's end-of-campaign crescendo of surreal warnings that big government -- verily, "socialism" -- would impend were Democrats elected. John McCain and Sarah Palin experienced this epiphany when Barack Obama told a Toledo plumber that he would "spread the wealth around."

America can't have that, exclaimed the Republican ticket while Republicans -- whose prescription drug entitlement is the largest expansion of the welfare state since President Lyndon Johnson's Great Society gave birth to Medicare in 1965; a majority of whom in Congress supported a lavish farm bill at a time of record profits for the less than 2 percent of the American people-cum-corporations who farm -- and their administration were partially nationalizing the banking system, putting Detroit on the dole and looking around to see if some bit of what is smilingly called "the private sector" has been inadvertently left off the ever-expanding list of entities eligible for a bailout from the $1 trillion or so that is to be "spread around."

The seepage of government into everywhere is, we are assured, to be temporary and nonpolitical. Well.

Probably as temporary as New York City's rent controls, which were born as emergency responses to the Second World War, and which are still distorting the city's housing market. The Depression, which FDR failed to end but which Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor did end, was the excuse for agriculture subsidies that have lived past three score years and 10.

The distribution of a trillion dollars by a political institution -- the federal government -- will be nonpolitical? How could it be? Either markets allocate resources, or government -- meaning politics -- allocates them. Now that distrust of markets is high, Americans are supposed to believe that the institution they trust least -- Congress -- will pony up $1 trillion and then passively recede, never putting its 10 thumbs, like a manic Jack Horner, into the pie? Surely Congress will direct the executive branch to show compassion for this, that and the other industry. And it will mandate "socially responsible" spending -- an infinitely elastic term -- by the favored companies.

Detroit has not yet started spending the $25 billion that Congress has approved, but already is, like Oliver Twist, holding out its porridge bowl and saying, "Please, sir, I want some more."

McCain and Palin, plucky foes of spreading the wealth, must have known that such spreading is most what Washington does. Here, the Constitution is an afterthought; the supreme law of the land is the principle of concentrated benefits and dispersed costs. Sugar import quotas cost the American people approximately $2 billion a year, but that sum is siphoned from 300 million consumers in small, hidden increments that are not noticed. The few thousand sugar producers on whom billions are thereby conferred do notice and are grateful to the government that bilks the many for the enrichment of the few.

Conservatives rightly think, or once did, that much, indeed most, government spreading of wealth is economically destructive and morally dubious -- destructive because, by directing capital to suboptimum uses, it slows wealth creation; morally dubious because the wealth being spread belongs to those who created it, not government. But if conservatives call all such spreading by government "socialism," that becomes a classification that no longer classifies: It includes almost everything, including the refundable tax credit on which McCain's health care plan depended.

Hyperbole is not harmless; careless language bewitches the speaker's intelligence. And falsely shouting "socialism!" in a crowded theater such as Washington causes an epidemic of yawning. This is the only major industrial society that has never had a large socialist party ideologically, meaning candidly, committed to redistribution of wealth. This is partly because Americans are an aspirational, not an envious people. It is also because the socialism we do have is the surreptitious socialism of the strong, e.g. sugar producers represented by their Washington hirelings.

In America, socialism is un-American. Instead, Americans merely do rent-seeking -- bending government for the benefit of private factions. The difference is in degree, including the degree of candor. The rehabilitation of conservatism cannot begin until conservatives are candid about their complicity in what government has become.

As for the president-elect, he promises to change Washington. He will, by making matters worse. He will intensify rent-seeking by finding new ways -- this will not be easy -- to expand, even more than the current administration has, government's influence on spreading the wealth around.
 
...

brookes385_406443a.jpg
 
You do this quite a bit. The implication being that Bush is no different than Stalin or Marx. This isn't true, if it were, you'd embrace the guy.

The fact is, you're doing this to down play the overt socialist tendency of the Democrats. It's as you're doing in the other thread and Obama's ties to domestic terror, you try to find a weak association (even if it's totally false) on the right so that you can dismiss the overt behavior on the left.

The same applies for this socialist agenda. We, as conservatives,can't oppose full out socialism as represented by Obama because some members of the "right" have supported programs with some similar elements. "how can you oppose socialism when your party also supported the $700B bail out...." purely to end the debate and avoid scrutiny.


It's a sneaky tactic and really rather dishonest..
 
You do this quite a bit. The implication being that Bush is no different than Stalin or Marx. This isn't true, if it were, you'd embrace the guy.

The fact is, you're doing this to down play the overt socialist tendency of the Democrats. It's as you're doing in the other thread and Obama's ties to domestic terror, you try to find a weak association (even if it's totally false) on the right so that you can dismiss the overt behavior on the left.

The same applies for this socialist agenda. We, as conservatives,can't oppose full out socialism as represented by Obama because some members of the "right" have supported programs with some similar elements. "how can you oppose socialism when your party also supported the $700B bail out...." purely to end the debate and avoid scrutiny.


It's a sneaky tactic and really rather dishonest..

Wow - that sort of response just because I posted what I thought was a rather funny political cartoon that appeared to apply to the subject of this thread.

I believe the only thing I have posted regarding Bush and socialism was
But, compared to W. Bush - one of the biggest socialist presidents we have ever had (according to Ben Stein on Larry King - wow - I was shocked), I actually think Obama's socialistic tendencies will be less.

I just stated that Ben Stein thought that Bush was a big socialist, and that IMO Obama's tendencies will be less. My personal thoughts regarding the extent of Bush's socialist tendencies were never stated.

Once again Calabrio those blanket assumptions you keep making about me are continuing to nibble your butt... you must like the sensation ;)
 
Wow - that sort of response just because I posted what I thought was a rather funny political cartoon.

I believe the only thing I have posted regarding Bush and socialism was

I just stated that Ben Stein thought that Bush was a socialist. My personal thoughts were never stated.

Once again Calabrio those blanket assumptions you keep making about me are continuing to nibble your butt... you must like the sensation ;)

"Oh heavens, I said no such thing..... I just repeated something without any thought of what it meant." Nonsense, are you to haveus believe that you're too naive to do that on purpose? You reposted those things because you are advancing a position. You do it here all the time, I see it done constantly in the political world. It's basically the classic liberal defense of calling someone a hypocrite. It used to be reserved for just moral and ethical things, but it's increasingly being used as a way of dismissing and disguising the political policy and ideas.

As I just mentioned, there are two topics right now you're employing this tactic. With Bill Ayers association with Obama- implying that since some fools say that McCain or Palin have a loose association with a radical, then we should disregard the HISTORY Obama has with an outspoken domestic terrorist and radical Marxist. And on the issue of the radical shift to the left the Democrat leadership is positioning to take this country. Charges of socialism or concerns about big government, wasteful spending will be downplayed or dismissed the same way.

My understanding is that you've been playing this political game longer than some of us have been alive. The doe in the headlights thing doesn't work.
 
If you look very closely Calabrio I very rarely repost anything from anywhere else. I very rarely just copy an article and post it here on the site, like others do all the time (like this thread for instance, which you started...)

You reposted those things because you are advancing a position. You do it here all the time, I see it done constantly in the political world.
.
If the shoe fits Calabrio...

I do post cartoons occasionally, like the Palin cartoons.. and the one above.

Quit now... I am not going to smear McCain (I think many people consider Liddy a Fascist, much as many people consider Ayers a Marxist) - smear Obama all you want - it obviously isn't an equal correlation.

I believe you Calabrio are longer in tooth than I am, but I could be wrong... And I am very proud of my political past - I have worked hard for the things I believe in. I do not just sit on the sidelines and complain - I believe you are of the same ilk - I would imagine you have worked hard on political campaigns as well, or held political office - right? I applaud that on both sides of the fence Calabrio.

Oh, it would be a vixen in the headlights...;) I eat venison...:)
 
If you look very closely Calabrio I very rarely repost anything from anywhere else. I very rarely just copy an article and post it here on the site, like others do all the time (like this thread for instance, which you started...)

Yes, and when you do, you have a reason for doing so.
It's not free association. I'm confident that you don't post in a political forum without being on point.

Quit now... I am not going to smear McCain (I think many people consider Liddy a Fascist, much as many people consider Ayers a Marxist) - smear Obama all you want - it obviously isn't an equal correlation.
And many people on the left call George W. a Nazi, it's of little relevance. Liddy IS NOT a fascist, in fact, if you listen to him speak, he couldn't have less in common with a fascist. He's vocally against a strong central government for fear of it's fascist tendencies. "Many people" that you refer to are fools or liars.

However, Ayers IS a radical leftsist, he IS a MARXIST, he IS a domestic terrorist... this isn't an issue of debate.


On a side note, I would LOVE to see G. Gordon Liddy and Bill Ayer locked in a room together... where only one guy could leave.
 
I've also noticed that fox deliberately attempts to hide her point amidst a sprinkling of frivolity, making her posts difficult to read and hard to nail down her point. This is done with the purpose of allowing wiggle room to claim "Wha-? Me?" later.

It's a classic liberal doublespeak, which is the polar opposite of being direct, saying exactly what you mean.

For the record, when I read "many people consider Liddy a fascist" I nearly spit my drink all over my monitor in incredulity and mirth.
 
Calabrio,

Out of the all the posts you have started since the 1st of the month - this is the breakdown...
videos 6
articles 10
transcript of radio show 1
link to website 1
original 1

So it looks like Calabrio you are 18 to one on reposting just starting threads. And I have no idea of how many 'reposts' are within the various threads

I don't think I have started a thread - but, as far as reposting within a thread, maybe a couple?

Actually I am glad you post some of this stuff - I am a pretty regular reader of American Thinker - but the rest of the right - not so much. This is good exposure to the 'dark side'...;)

Let's look at this from another point of view...

Liddy IS a right radical nutcase, he WAS a fascist (in the 30s when he was growing up) and he IS a domestic terrorist... this isn't an issue of debate (oh, making arbitrary decrees... this is fun, I see why you do it Calabrio).

On a side note, I would LOVE to see G. Gordon Liddy and Bill Ayer locked in a room together... where only one guy could leave.

Ah, just what a good fascist would like - might makes right.... :)

And yes Foss - I am guilty of sprinkling frivolity, and yes, I can be hard to nail down, because, well, why should I make it easy? It is not however to make for wiggle room, it is just I am not all that comfortable with being beaten up all the time.

But, I do like how you liked my Liddy joke Foss (I hope you didn't hurt your computer with the spit take :p ) I was rather shocked myself when I was looking at Liddy facts and there was all this stuff about Liddy being a fascist.. it is pretty funny. I hope you enjoyed the 'mirth'. The world can use lots of mirth...
 
And yes Foss - I am guilty of sprinkling frivolity, and yes, I can be hard to nail down, because, well, why should I make it easy? It is not however to make for wiggle room, it is just I am not all that comfortable with being beaten up all the time.
If you'd just speak plainly and directly, you wouldn't be beaten up. What are you afraid of, that you would lose arguments on the merits? Otherwise why would you be worried about it? :rolleyes:

But, I do like how you liked my Liddy joke Foss (I hope you didn't hurt your computer with the spit take :p ) I was rather shocked myself when I was looking at Liddy facts and there was all this stuff about Liddy being a fascist.. it is pretty funny. I hope you enjoyed the 'mirth'. The world can use lots of mirth...
This is classic misdirection, fox, and it's why I really don't like talking to you: You deliberately misconstrue my point. Calabrio was just pointing this out - that's what you do. It's incredibly frustrating, and I'm flirting with the ignore button, to be frank. It's just not worth wasting the time replying to you anymore.

Now I suppose in classic foxpaws misdirecting fashion, you will crack some joke about me flirting.
 
Fine Foss, have fun among the right patting each other on the back.

Right now, I am pretty much it for you to argue with out here. Well, you could have jagger, just mention the second amendment, the militia, and how we shouldn't be allowed our guns because Madison is a butt monkey (here jagger, jagger, here jagger, jagger - we will see if the bait works.)

You have been in the forum wars for a long time, I have not. My skin isn't as thick as yours. It still hurts sometimes...
 
Oh, I believe I will never win an argument out here - that is a pretty telling statement - I will continue to try to be a voice for the left - perhaps not the most 'clear and concise', or literate, and without any merit, but passionate (that however doesn't count for much does it?)
 
Now the victim card comes out. You don't have to whine. Is it possible for you to have an honest debate, or do you always have to misdirect?
 
Calabrio,
Out of the all the posts you have started since the 1st of the month...
I don't think I have started a thread - but, as far as reposting within a thread, maybe a couple?
You're so far off topic, it can not be an accident.
What's at issue isn't whether you "repost" information off the web. I You're changing the subject.

I'm specifically commenting on the POINT YOU MADE. You posted something, in this case an editorial cartoon, to make a point and I'm taking issue with both your point and the underhanded tactic that is being used.


Liddy IS a right radical nutcase, he WAS a fascist (in the 30s when he was growing up) and he IS a domestic terrorist... this isn't an issue of debate (oh, making arbitrary decrees... this is fun, I see why you do it Calabrio).
Again, this thread isn't about G. Gordon Liddy, it's about your dishonest tactic of misrepresenting the truth and then using a "they all do it" argument to avoid having to deal with the facts.

You're claims about Liddy are simply untrue. To imply he was a "fascist in the 1930s is utterly ridiculous. He was born in 1930. So are you trying to say that he was a ideological fascist while in preschool? A fascist first grader perhaps? How can you have any intellectual integrity if you continue to repeat this nonsense? He is NOT a domestic terrorist. He was a soldier, he was an acclaimed FBI agent, he is a felon, and worst of all, he was a lawyer. But there's no "domestic terrorism." The Jack Anderson story is not "domestic terrorism" by any definition of terrorism. Bill Ayers was actually responsible for the death and maiming of people.

Now, here's another opportunity for you, tell me I'm wrong when I saw Bill Ayers IS a Marxist, he IS a domestic terrorist, and that he IS a radical leftist who hates what this country has been.
 
You reposted those things because you are advancing a position.

I guess I misunderstood this statement of your Calabrio - maybe you should clarify it for me.

Don't you post all those things to advance a position?

If not, why do you post all those things?

Oh, there is quite a bit about how as a school child Liddy was inspired by Hitler - he even had it in one of his books. It had to do with growing up in a very German neighborhood. He has denounced Hitler since then...

Oh, Ayers was a terrorist, was a marxist, and is a radical leftist. And check out the DODs definition of terrorist...
 
I guess I misunderstood this statement of your Calabrio - maybe you should clarify it for me.

Don't you post all those things to advance a position?

If not, why do you post all those things?

Oh, there is quite a bit about how as a school child Liddy was inspired by Hitler - he even had it in one of his books. It had to do with growing up in a very German neighborhood. He has denounced Hitler since then...

Oh, Ayers was a terrorist, was a marxist, and is a radical leftist. And check out the DODs definition of terrorist...
You're still trying to argue off topic "the other side does it." And now you're backpedaling.
 
No, I am actually really confused - I was trying to find out why all these things get reposted out here - you do it too foss.

I didn't say that I didn't like it, in fact I said it was a good opportunity for me to read things I normally wouldn't read.

So, just as a simple question, why do you repost? Isn't it to advance a position?
 
No, I am actually really confused - I was trying to find out why all these things get reposted out here - you do it too foss.

I didn't say that I didn't like it, in fact I said it was a good opportunity for me to read things I normally wouldn't read.

So, just as a simple question, why do you repost? Isn't it to advance a position?

I personally, will repost an article as the start of a thread to expose it to those who frequent this forum. At the very least, it will educate people on a point of view or perspective (and often facts) on an issue that they may not be aware of or have considered. If they find something objectionable in the argument, then is opens up a debate on that issue.

I will cite and quote other articles in the middle of a debate, but personally try not to repost whole articles as a form of counterargument in the middle of a debate. It seems lazy and insulting to people trying to debate, as well as potentially being an underhanded tactic to avoid making the argument yourself.
 
I guess I misunderstood this statement of your Calabrio - maybe you should clarify it for me.
Don't you post all those things to advance a position?
If not, why do you post all those things?

Absolutely- and I'm challenging you on that position.


Oh, there is quite a bit about how as a school child Liddy was inspired by Hitler - he even had it in one of his books. It had to do with growing up in a very German neighborhood. He has denounced Hitler since then...
Yes, so as a little boy he found a very powerful speakers speeches to be inspiring. Not only are to commenting on the world view of a little child, you're doing it based on events PRIOR to the war. What a deceitful and manipulative trick.

I'm just shocked... disgusted actually, that you are continuing this. Clearly, this charge you keep making is void of any substance, yet you continue to repeat it. I guess if you say it often enough, someone will remember it and continue it forward for you. And if you plant that lie, it's easier to continue with the other lies and deception that's associated with insulating Obama from Ayers.


Oh, Ayers was a terrorist, was a marxist, and is a radical leftist. And check out the DODs definition of terrorist...
Has he renounced his terrorist actions? Apologized for them? To the contrary, he DEFENDS them.
And he's still a radical leftist, marxist... Ayers even says that he's a Marxist.

I know the various definitions of terrorism. No two organizations have come up with the same legal definition of terrorism. But terrorism is basically understood to mean causing death or serious injury to civilians with the purpose of influencing or intimidating a government. That sounds exactly like Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground. And had those dangerous bastards not blown themselves up, we probably would have seen more death and maiming from them.
 
You reposted those things because you are advancing a position. You do it here all the time, I see it done constantly in the political world.

I do it 'all the time'? I very rarely do it. I argue on my opinions or direct quote almost entirely Calabrio. I almost never repost anything, to either start an argument, or to bolster my position.

I guess the few times I have reposted something it was to further my leftist viewpoint - it would be rather stupid to post something to further your viewpoint over mine.

So, I guess I am still confused about this - 'all the time' thing... But thanks for clarifying that you do it 'absolutely'.;) I was really confused that you were accusing me of doing it, but it seemed like you were saying that you weren't doing it...

But terrorism is basically understood to mean causing death or serious injury to civilians with the purpose of influencing or intimidating a government.

So, if terrorism is defined as action as you stated - why do people get arrested for just planning terrorist activities?

And had those dangerous bastards not blown themselves up, we probably would have seen more death and maiming from them.

And you know if Liddy would have had his way he would have killed Jack Anderson, kidnapped people and shipped them off to Mexico, and more. Thank goodness there were a few people left in the Nixon administration that put some reins on that nut case...
 
Oh, and something else Calabrio - once again in an effort to understand this - reposting is an OK thing? Earlier on in this thread you seemed to state that it wasn't an OK thing...
It's basically the classic liberal defense of calling someone a hypocrite. It used to be reserved for just moral and ethical things, but it's increasingly being used as a way of dismissing and disguising the political policy and ideas.

But, maybe it is just bad when I do it... :confused:
 
You can not seriously be this obtuse.
I have not and I would not take issue with your posting articles, editorials, or political cartoons from outside sources. I think that it can be a very effective tool to stimulate debate or to make a conscise point. Have I made myself clear?

I am taking issue with the POINT YOU WERE MAKING and the tactic you have repeatedly employed in the argument. NOT posting from another source, but the technique of making a weak association of some perceived negative with a conservative or Republican and then using that to dismiss a well support, considerably more serious charge facing Obama or the political left.

In this thread, in this thread you are reinforcing the Bush embraces socialist principles so that you can later use that to dismiss the claim that Democrats and Obama are aggressively pursuing socialist policies.

Another example is your trying to misrepresent G Gordon Liddy and then link him to McCain in an effort to deceptively portray McCain as having a radical terrorist tie so that you can use it to dismiss the credible and considerably more serious association Obama has.

What makes this even more despicable is the fact you are fully aware of just how dishonest this is. You're engaged in a very conscious, very manipulative, very dishonest form of spin and disinformation.

The Liddy topic is a Democrat talking point, repeated all over the web. Even Letterman was prompt to ask it before his interview with McCain. However, I'm confident that you know how dishonest the Liddy claims your making are. And when you're called on it, you simply move to the next talking point.

As for the "definition" of terror-
since there is no single definition to speak of. An act of terrorism is certainly different than simply planning one. In the case of Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground, they both ENGAGED in terrorism as well as planned to commit MORE terrorist acts.

You're attempts to call Liddy a terrorist are simply ridiculous. They don't even resemble that definition.

So, in short, we've put to rest your absurd claim that he was a fascist.
You're implication that he was a Nazi sympathizer was a lie too.
You're claim that he was a terrorist is false.

Yet despite all this, Bill Ayers STILL is a Marxist, radical terrorist with blood on his hands.
Despite all this, the Democrat party is STILL preparing to implement a radically leftist political agenda come January, made possible by the election of Obama.

Have I made myself clear?

And, by the way, this dishonest 'tactic' is bad whenever anyone does it. I just expected more from you. I expected an honest and candid public exchange of ideas, not spin and deception.
Reposting is fine, but I'm going to call you on it when I feel you're purposefully being deceptive.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
the reference of g liddy and mccain is to show the absurdity of the link of ayers and obama. republicans keep up with a smear tactic then howl when it gets reversed.

"Bill Ayers and the Weather Underground, they both ENGAGED in terrorism as well as planned to commit MORE terrorist acts."


and liddy planned terrorist acts. and liddy's tricks were funded by a president elect from his campaign fund. his terrorist acts were just found out before he had time to implement them. so a terrorist stopped before he implements his plan is not a terrorist? i fail to see the rationalization. so there are a lot of people in guantanomo who should be freed.
 
So, I am not allowed to ever make the point that it is wrong for you to cry 'socialist' (or anything else we happen to be discussing at the time) for one side of the political fence, while you ignore the same exact behavior on the other side of the fence?

I can claim in a new thread that Bush is an 'over the top' socialist - and you aren't allowed to bring Obama into the discussion at all? Or anyone else, like FDR, right? I asked once, long ago, for an explanation of your sandbox rules, and never got any replies... So, this is a sandbox rule?

As far as Liddy - I can't believe you are defending the man. However, I guess it works both ways, you can't believe that I would defend Ayers. Just because Ayers was a successful terrorist and Liddy was an impotent one doesn't make one 'more' of a terrorist, just 'better'.

Another example is your trying to misrepresent G Gordon Liddy and then link him to McCain in an effort to deceptively portray McCain as having a radical terrorist tie so that you can use it to dismiss the credible and considerably more serious association Obama has.

And, maybe you didn't read my posts on the other thread - You are welcome to make the 'reflects his character' argument regarding Ayers and Obama. I won't claim that McCain's association is a reflection of his character. It is wrong. I lost, Shag won, period. You can continue the absurdity of it all, I gave up - the rights blinders are too firmly in place. Shag was willing to argue that McCain's character could be impinged by his relationship with Liddy - I won't go down that road, even though the right is willing to.

Despite all this, the Democrat party is STILL preparing to implement a radically leftist political agenda come January, made possible by the election of Obama.

Have I made myself clear?

You have made yourself clear about many, many things. And you have made yourself clear I am despicable, dishonest (4 times), manipulative, deceptive (2), and probably more. What did I forget to list Calabrio?

And, believe me, I wasn't even going to argue on this thread - I had run across the cartoon a couple of days ago and thought it was funny. I figured I would post it here when someone came up with the tired 'Obama is a socialist' statement, you just happened to be the first one Calabrio. I actually am not too fond of debating the future... The future is just pretty much undebatable.
 
...liddy planned terrorist acts. and liddy's tricks were funded by a president elect from his campaign fund. his terrorist acts were just found out before he had time to implement them. so a terrorist stopped before he implements his plan is not a terrorist? i fail to see the rationalization. so there are a lot of people in guantanomo who should be freed.

More lies from hrmwrm...

Liddy did nothing even close to a terrorist act. None of the planned acts qualify as a terrorist act in any way. Criminal? yes. Violent? yes. Terrorist? no.

And of course, of the two criteria I spelled out, you are dishonestly (as usual) ignoring the more relevant and damning one, when it comes to your attempted smear here. Anyone planning a terrorist act could still be a would-be terrorist. But that is beside the point...

None of the actions Liddy planned would qualify as terrorism. They would have to be aimed at intimidation and coercion, which they decidedly were not. They were aimed at neutralization and elimination of threats to Nixon's political power. If you cannot acknowledge that fact, they you are, once again being blatantly dishonest.
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top