The Hyperbole of a Conservative

[Marcus]

By the way Shag, I've talked to the people at Wikipedia and you are now banned from the site due to excessive linking.

 

[foxpaws]

I am sorry about the semantics - but, I have been pounded so much on rules that aren't stated anywhere I decided to get them out of the way here... sorry again...

Thank you Marcus - On the other post and here I have stated over and over again I don't believe that McCain follows or condones Liddy's whole weird philosophy and actions. But somehow the guys here can't see the 'in your face' comparison when they link Obama and Ayers.

But, because of some weird rule of debate I am not allowed to use comparison to argue my point.

Maybe someone could really explain this to me.

And it is just fun to make sure that Liddy get his due as a domestic terrorist...

 

[Calabrio]

But, because of some weird rule of debate I am not allowed to use comparison to argue my point.

Maybe someone could really explain this to me.

There's nothing else to explain.
Your "comparison" has been challenged.

And it is just fun to make sure that Liddy get his due as a domestic terrorist...

Sad, because he's not a terrorist.
If you'd said he was thuggish, then you'd have had a stronger point. But a thug working for the government is vastly different than a radical leftist, American hating terrorist who actively KILLS AND MAIMS innocent people.

Dodge and weave all night, but you haven't been able to tell me any buildings blown up, people killed or maimed by nail bombs associated with Liddy.

However, the same can't be said for MARXIST TERRORIST Bill Ayers. There's no innocent blood on Liddy's hands. And, for his crimes, Liddy served his time. Ayers is the unrepentant terrorist.

And worse yet, short of the violence, he and Obama appear to share the same political goals. But compared to nail and pipe bombs, Obama is just a more effective way for Ayres to implementing that change.

 

[Marcus]

You'll have a hard time naming anybody KILLED OR MAIMED by Ayers other than the three Weathermen who died in the Greenwich explosion. As for buildings "blown up", that's a stretch. They usually set their bombs off in bathrooms or unattended places in the very early morning. See this Weather Underground timeline (PDF) with contemporary newspaper accounts. Damage was limited. No one was ever hurt. Furthermore, they usually called with warnings before. Blowing up a bathroom at 4 AM is a far cry from "blowing up" the Capital building or the Pentagon.

Does this excuse Ayers or the WU? Hell no. It's very possible that people could have been maimed or killed if the Greenwich Village thing hadn't happened, because they were supposedly preparing to bomb a dance at Fort Dix. But the fact remains that no one was killed. Ayers was a terrorist by every definition. But quit with the hyperbolic revisionism about mass devastation and bloodshed.

--------------------------------------------

Also, how about naming these "radical agenda" you believe Obama shares with Ayers? What do you base these accusations on other than the fact that they know each other?

 

[fossten]

I have been pounded so much

You keep bringing this up. Can we leave sexual fantasies out of this discussion?

 

[foxpaws]

Calabrio – so I can use comparison – right? Is that OK??? As a general rule here….

And, there are men being held in Gantanamo as terrorists who haven’t committed an act of violence, they just planned terrorist acts – so, the US Government views terrorism as ”An individual who commits an act or acts of violence or threatens violence in pursuit of political, religious, or ideological objectives.

The act of threatening to commit violence is a terrorist act –

And Liddy isn’t repentant either… Of his time spent in jail… he said he was a ‘prisoner of war’, and when asked… Does he regret burgling the offices of the Democratic National Committee (DNC) and setting in chain the resignation of a President?
His reply was… "No."

And foss – yes, it is true, I was trying to sneak in a sexual fantasy involving Liddy, Ayers, a couple of ex plumbers and, well, it’s complicated I'll try to keep those to myself, really....

 

[shagdrum]

And, there are men being held in Gantanamo as terrorists who haven’t committed an act of violence, they just planned terrorist acts – so, the US Government views terrorism as ”An individual who commits an act or acts of violence or threatens violence in pursuit of political, religious, or ideological objectives.

the better analogy is a POW. Most (if not all) of these people are being held so as to be more humane in are conducting of the war on terror. If we don't take prisoners on the battlefield, then the only other logical course it to kill any enemy combatant. You cannot let them go and keep fighting you later on.

Also, people who are not American Citizens and working against the U.S. government are not covered under the U.S. constitution as far as rights are concerned. That factor should be considered as well...

 

[Calabrio]

Calabrio – so I can use comparison – right? Is that OK??? As a general rule here….

Spin...spin.... dodge....deflect.... but never actually respond to the challenge..... It's really getting boring.

And, there are men being held in Gantanamo as terrorists who haven’t committed an act of violence

As noted, they are enemy combatants.
Not that we've resovled that, let's move on to your next point.

And Liddy isn’t repentant either…

No he's not. But I've addressed this already.
You're not arguing that he was a thug, you're trying to say he was a terrorist. He simply wasn't. No definition of "terrorism" even applies. You can ignore this all you'd like, but that's the reality.

HOWEVER-
Bill Ayers IS a an unrepentant terrorist. He has been involved in domestic terrorism and funded domestic terrorism. He readily acknowledges this. Not only is he not repentant, he's proud of it, and to this day argues that he was in the right.... this part of the story makes Obama look bad by association.

The real problem is that Obama and he are in ideological agreement with each other. Obama appears to agree with Ayers on everything BUT building high explosive nail bombs to be used to maim and kill innocent civilians.

You keep dancing around this, distracting.

MORE IMPORTANTLY- Obama was elected. Since the campaign is over, it's irrelevant to even discuss McCain's loose associations. Despite the fact that McCain's association with Liddy isn't even similar to that of Obama and Ayers. Or the fact that Liddy's actions or feelings for this country and the constitution have nothing in common with Ayers.

The only relevant issue now is that the President-elect is in ideological lock step with a high profile, subversive, domestic terrorist, Marxist radical. One who hasn't condemned violence as a tool for radicals, but has simply found that brainwashing kids in the education system to be a far more effective way to do it.

 

[Marcus]

How the hell did we get off on Gitmo?

But since we're here, it should be noted that a great many of the prisoners weren't caught on the "battlefield". They were captured and turned in by third parties in exchange for rewards. Many were never charged with anything and were released. "Hey, sorry buddy for three years of living hell, hanging you from the ceiling from chains, and all that. We thought you might be a bad guy because this dude said you were after we paid him $5000. Have a nice day."

There's a circular logic when it comes to these prisoners:
"They must be terrorists because they're in Gitmo."
"They're in Gitmo because they're terrorists."

And considering the number of them who have tried to commit suicide, I think some might have to take issue with the "more humane than killing them on the spot" argument.

 

[Marcus]

I guess I'll just keep posting for the hell of it. You guys go on and discuss this without me.

 

[Calabrio]

How the hell did we get off on Gitmo?

Because Fox can't stay on topic. She's dancing around, avoiding any of the challenges presented to her, aware of just how weak and dishonest her little technique is.

...If you want to discuss Gitmo... start another thread.

 

[shagdrum]

But since we're here, it should be noted that a great many of the prisoners weren't caught on the "battlefield". They were captured and turned in by third parties in exchange for rewards. Many were never charged with anything and were released. "Hey, sorry buddy for three years of living hell, hanging you from the ceiling from chains, and all that. We thought you might be a bad guy because this dude said you were after we paid him $5000. Have a nice day."

Unless they are American Citizens, they are not covered by the procedural rights in the Constitution and don't need to be charged with anything.

And considering the number of them who have tried to commit suicide, I think some might have to take issue with the "more humane than killing them on the spot" argument.

These are people willing to die for their cause and are aimmed at basically psychological warfare. They have been trained to cause chaos and negative PR for the enemy in the event they are captured. Commiting suicide is a real good way to do that.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

You'll have a hard time naming anybody KILLED OR MAIMED by Ayers other than the three Weathermen who died in the Greenwich explosion. As for buildings "blown up", that's a stretch. They usually set their bombs off in bathrooms or unattended places in the very early morning. See this Weather Underground timeline (PDF) with contemporary newspaper accounts. Damage was limited. No one was ever hurt. Furthermore, they usually called with warnings before. Blowing up a bathroom at 4 AM is a far cry from "blowing up" the Capital building or the Pentagon.

Don't expect Calabrio to acknowledge his lies, he's been called on this before and yet he continues this lie. Remember the forum rules dictated by the RWWs on this board, "We make the rules and they only apply to you."

 

[Calabrio]

Don't expect Calabrio to acknowledge his lies, he's been called on this before and yet he continues this lie. Remember the forum rules dictated by the RWWs on this board, "We make the rules and they only apply to you."

You're being a miserable little troll.
Are you seriously challenging this? Because, frankly, I'm not interested in just busy work by a bunch of dishonest, deceptive liberals like yourself.

We can either list all of the people and targets that the Weather Underground attacked with moltov cocktails, explosives and the likes.

We can talk about the law enforcement officers that they assaulted.

Or we can even talk about the various brainwashed radicals that were either shot or blew themselves up while manufacturing explosives in the basement of a residential neighborhood.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

This is what you called Bill Ayers in a previous post on this thread:

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showpost.php?p=448169&postcount=53

a radical leftist, American hating terrorist who actively KILLS AND MAIMS innocent people.

You've stated the same in other threads.

If you can back up that statement, that Bill Ayers personally actively kills and maims innocent people, or even has in the past (I'm giving you rope here), PLEASE provide the proof.

Oh, I know, you're going to claim "that's not who I was talking about" and try to weasle out of it, because you will NOT be able to back that accusation up.

And NOTE to Shag, let it be shown, ONCE AGAIN, WHO was the first to throw personal attacks here.

 

[JohnnyBz00LS]

We can either list all of the people and targets that the Weather Underground attacked with moltov cocktails, explosives and the likes.

We can talk about the law enforcement officers that they assaulted.

Or we can even talk about the various brainwashed radicals that were either shot or blew themselves up while manufacturing explosives in the basement of a residential neighborhood.

I'm not looking for those hurt by the Weather Underground, I'm looking for those innocents who died at Ayer's own hand.

I'm not looking for those who were assaulted, I'm looking for those innocents who died at Ayer's own hand.

I'm not looking for those "radicals" who killed themselves, I'm looking for those innocents who died at Ayer's own hand.

It appears you are already attempting to pave yourself a narrow path to weasle out of your statement.

 

[foxpaws]

Obama appears to agree with Ayers on everything BUT building high explosive nail bombs to be used to maim and kill innocent civilians.

Wow - everything - very interesting... the blanket assumptions apply to everyone - huh?

You keep dancing around this, distracting.

Most people like my dancing...

Because, frankly, I'm not interested in just busy work by a bunch of dishonest, deceptive liberals like yourself.

Calabrio - what ever you use for stress release - how about getting some? Your side lost - at least you still hold filibuster and 2 years really isn't that far away... Heck, if you need some suggestions for relieving tension - just pm me - I have lots of ideas... As you said, you know, this doesn't really even matter. I have been debating Liddy because he is a paranoid nut case and he is a fascinating study - I don't really care about the outcome - just wandering about here in the debate. For instance, I didn't realize he doesn't have very good use of his left(?) hand because of all the times he has burnt it (holding a lighter to it until the flesh is smoking and peeling away) showing people how tough he is... truly an interesting study.

We can talk about the law enforcement officers that they assaulted.

Now, not as something I agree or disagree with, Liddy did broadcast on his radio show how to correctly shoot to kill an ATF officer.

Shag, since obviously this has gone beyond friendly fire - we can just finish this off - site, probably healthier for Calabrio's blood pressure rate... Or I can stay here if Calabrio promises not to self destruct... I wouldn't want to maim or kill innocent people...

And now for what everyone has been waiting for - visual proof of how much of a terrorist Liddy is - wow - have you ever seen a more ugly bike - he builds these things and then sells them like for 25 g's or so...

Visual terrorism at its worst...

 

[fossten]

Now, not as something I agree or disagree with, Liddy did broadcast on his radio show how to correctly shoot to kill an ATF officer.

...if he busts in on you armed.

You left that part out, as well as the context (Ruby Ridge and Waco).

Classic quote mining. In fact, you didn't even quote him.

 

[foxpaws]

Liddy's quote - from his talk show... 1994
“Go for a head shot. They're going to be wearing bulletproof vests. They've got a big target on there: ATF. Don't shoot at that, because they've got a vest on underneath that. Head shots, head shots.... Kill the sons of bitches.”

It could have be in regards to WACO - although WACO occurred a year earlier...

Liddy has claimed, in I believe 2004, to have said that while talking about the ATF entering your home illegally, but, I have never seen the entire quote - I would love to - have you seen it Foss?

And, as I said, I wasn't agreeing or disagreeing with that particular statement, since I don't know the whole story behind the allegation.

 

[Calabrio]

It appears you are already attempting to pave yourself a narrow path to weasle out of your statement.

And it looks like you've framed the question in such a dishonest way that there is little point in answer it.

Bill Ayers was a radical who financed and help plan terrorist operations.

Let me ask you this, is it fair to call Osama Bin Laden a terrorist or to blame him for the 911 attacks? Can you tell me a specific act of terrorism that he actually perpetrated himself?

No. He provided guidance, planning, and money.
Same as Bill Ayers.
He found other misguided, brainwashed, ideological fools to blow themselves up or get sent to prison...

 

[Calabrio]

Liddy's quote - from his talk show... 1994
“Go for a head shot. They're going to be wearing bulletproof vests. They've got a big target on there: ATF. Don't shoot at that, because they've got a vest on underneath that. Head shots, head shots.... Kill the sons of bitches.”

... what kind of fascists would say that??
Obviously, one wouldn't. But intellectual honesty or candor isn't something you're inclined to exhibit in public debate, is it?

 

[Calabrio]

Calabrio - what ever you use for stress release - how about getting some? Your side lost - at least you still hold filibuster and 2 years really isn't that far away...

I don't have a "side." I don't play for a baseball team.
I don't have any affection for either team. I don't even like the "game" you refer to.

I have been debating Liddy because he is a paranoid nut case and he is a fascinating study

I won't deny that you might find him interesting, but you clearly brought Liddy up as a means of distracting from the Obama/Ayers associations. There's no need for me to repeat and explain it again.


And Liddy has a horrible history of marketing crappy stuff. Be it his calender, that bike... we have found agreement on that point.

 

[foxpaws]

But, I do like how you liked my Liddy joke Foss (I hope you didn't hurt your computer with the spit take ) I was rather shocked myself when I was looking at Liddy facts and there was all this stuff about Liddy being a fascist.. it is pretty funny. I hope you enjoyed the 'mirth'. The world can use lots of mirth...

... what kind of fascists would say that??
Obviously, one wouldn't. But intellectual honesty or candor isn't something you're inclined to exhibit in public debate, is it?

The fascist thing was a joke... sorry... I thought it was funny that there was all this stuff out there on the web about him being a fascist...

And, although Liddy is distracting that isn't why I brought him up. Originally I brought him up because I believe there are close correlations regarding the whole point of using Ayers as a reason to question Obama's character. I don't think you should use Ayers as a barometer of Obama's character, because I would never use McCain's relationship to Liddy as a reason to question McCains's character. But, I know your answer to that. So, let's just leave it at you don't feel they are an equal comparison, and let's keep your blood pressure below 150 - OK?

 

[Calabrio]

The fascist thing was a joke... sorry... I thought it was funny that there was all this stuff out there on the web about him being a fascist...

I don't think you were joking about that. And had it not been effectively challenged, I think you'd be very comfortable knowing that other people read it and believed it. In fact, that was clearly your intention.

The same applies for the statements you made that presented Liddy as a Nazi supporter.

Those weren't jokes. You can back away from the arguments now because they've been thoroughly demonstrated to be absolute rubbish in this thread. But they weren't jokes. They were at the foundation of your argument and defense of Obama and his association with Ayers.

..and don't worry about my blood pressure. I'm a healthy guy. And thoughtful honest political debate and discussion IS a distraction/release for me.
Unfortunately, I'm not finding any thoughtful or honest in the public forum here... just knee-jerk responses and skilled spin.

 

[foxpaws]

Well, at least the spin is skilled... One hates to be serviced by an unskilled spin artist...

i will try to be a more worthy opponent... I promise

And the real foundation in my argument regarding Ayers is that Liddy is a good comparable. I was forced to make him a terrorist (which I think I was doing an OK job on - and if left to finish, I can probably at least make it a mexican stand off...), to more justify the 'equalness' of the comparable. It was at that point that it became more of a study of the man, and connecting the dots to lead to that conclusion.

Which is scarier - the certifiable nut case, or the man who is intelligent enough to work the system? That is a really interesting question...