I choose agnosticism (I think). I'm open to all offers as you know, but let me get through Atlas Shrugged first.
Thought For The New Year
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I choose agnosticism (I think). I'm open to all offers as you know, but let me get through Atlas Shrugged first.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Fair enough, heh...that book requires a mental knife and fork. Can't get too distracted.
i've seen no CREDIBLE evidence for the existence of supernatural powers.
anyways, by the logic that you and shag eschew, proving childrens fables and many a work of fiction as such also become improbable.
as long as somebody believes leprachauns real, then they are.
yet you define all other gods as myth. by those standards, i go one farther.
Our "logic" is that espoused first (arguably) by Descartes in his proof of self (ever hear the phrase, "I think, therefore, I am"?). It is the type of reasoning used by every philosopher without a materialist viewpoint. It is not based purely on empirical evidence but on deductive reasoning, and is not something to be oversimplified (effectively, turned into a straw man) and dismissed, but that is precisely what you are doing.
Instead, you are insisting that the debate be confined to empirical evidence alone. But, when that standard is applied to your own views, those views cannot meet it either.
Basically, you are redefining the debate and establishing standards that seem favorable to your view. However, it is only because you ignorant of the reasoning behind your view (likely, only familiar with the rhetoric) that those standards seem favorable.
The fact that you are lashing out at that type of reasoning suggests that you are incapable of approaching this from a metaphysical point of view (which is where any serious debate on this issue would logically end up). In short, you are desperately trying to defend your faith even when you are in over your head, leading to the inconsistent and ignorant arguments you are now making.
You are, again, oversimplifying the reasoning to perpetuate some talking point that sounded good to you. If you are reduced to setting up straw men then you have no argument. Trying to rationalize a dismissal of the argument like that suggests that you are incapable of discussion at this level and are simply desperate to defend your faith.
And Christianity (and Theism in general) is an issue of faith. You can not challenge faith, much as you try. That is also why you will not change your view; because, as much as you don't want to admit it, it is based on faith.
You are trying to apply empirical standards to faith which is absurd and inappropriate. However, you refuse to acknowledge the fact that your faith cannot meet those standards either. It is clear that all you know is to debate this issue from an empirical viewpoint, which misses the core of the issue altogether.
As that article I cited pointed out, any and every field of study starts out with metaphysical axioms, including all the hard sciences and any and every religious view (including Atheism). That is where the core differences lie between Atheism and Theism, everything else is a reflection of those differences. If you cannot discuss things at the metaphysical level, then you are left with simply discussing the effects of those views without an adequate understanding of the reasoning between the two views and where the differences do (and do NOT) lie. This leaves you desperately trying to defend something and/or argue against something that you don't understand enough to be able to do so in an honest manner. That desperation leads to dishonest arguments aimed at deception and/or rationalization (straw men, etc). Basically, you seem to be in over your head and desperately trying to defend your faith.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Excellent analysis.
NoLimit95
Dedicated LVC Member
The only thing that bothers me about the whole God thing and I'm not saying there isn't one but why are there so many different religions?
One God = one religion and that's how it should be. What should that religion be, I have no idea. I just try to be a good person and be nice to everyone and help when I can and never say the GD word. Other than that, I don't care what I say because it never mentions in the bible that the F word is a bad word. Someone sat around and made up words and then someone sat around and decided that there needed to be a select number of "bad words" and we believe they are bad, when really, it's just another word.
Some don't own televisions because that's their religion.
Some women don't cut their hair because it's their religion.
Some do Saturday church while others do Sunday church.
I don't go to church because I don't trust any church. Cover charge is too high and the preacher lives in a house for free with utilities paid? Well, here in AL. that's how it is. I'm sure some churches mean well and do the right thing but there are very few that do.
Some make an empire out of it and that ain't what God told them to do. Simply put, I'm not atheist and I'm not a church person. I just try to always do the right thing and treat people with all fairness unless they piss me off, which is hard to do.
Do I think children should pray in school? Hell no. If I did, he would go to a private school where they pray. When I get something religious in my mailbox, no matter what it is, I walk straight to the garbage can with it. Don't wanna see it. If I did, I would go out and search for the gospel that I want to hear.
So, maybe there is a name for my type, I'm not sure. I do believe there is something in this universe and hopefully I'll see it one day. When my car blew up last week, I was able to get out and when I did, something helped me get out and stay alive with barely any injury. Did God do it? Very well could have and if so, I thank him for that.
Is God also responsible for some of the other tests he has put me through in life? If so, I do not appreciate that, at all. I have had my share and I know others have had worse and are living much worse as we speak but damn, leave me alone and go mess with the people that are bad and do bad things to others. Make sense? People always make excuses for God and why he does things the way he does them,,,, but.... you're not supposed to question why.
As for there being a devil and burning in hell for eternal life, sorry, I do not believe that in any way.
One of the worlds famous questions is "Do you believe in God?"
How often do you hear someone say "Do you believe in the Devil?"
That was the only comment I'll be making in this particular thread. Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in on the subject. My philosophy is to just live the way you feel is the right way and be nice to others. In the end, I hope the way I thought was the right way.
One God = one religion and that's how it should be. What should that religion be, I have no idea. I just try to be a good person and be nice to everyone and help when I can and never say the GD word. Other than that, I don't care what I say because it never mentions in the bible that the F word is a bad word. Someone sat around and made up words and then someone sat around and decided that there needed to be a select number of "bad words" and we believe they are bad, when really, it's just another word.
Some don't own televisions because that's their religion.
Some women don't cut their hair because it's their religion.
Some do Saturday church while others do Sunday church.
I don't go to church because I don't trust any church. Cover charge is too high and the preacher lives in a house for free with utilities paid? Well, here in AL. that's how it is. I'm sure some churches mean well and do the right thing but there are very few that do.
Some make an empire out of it and that ain't what God told them to do. Simply put, I'm not atheist and I'm not a church person. I just try to always do the right thing and treat people with all fairness unless they piss me off, which is hard to do.
Do I think children should pray in school? Hell no. If I did, he would go to a private school where they pray. When I get something religious in my mailbox, no matter what it is, I walk straight to the garbage can with it. Don't wanna see it. If I did, I would go out and search for the gospel that I want to hear.
So, maybe there is a name for my type, I'm not sure. I do believe there is something in this universe and hopefully I'll see it one day. When my car blew up last week, I was able to get out and when I did, something helped me get out and stay alive with barely any injury. Did God do it? Very well could have and if so, I thank him for that.
Is God also responsible for some of the other tests he has put me through in life? If so, I do not appreciate that, at all. I have had my share and I know others have had worse and are living much worse as we speak but damn, leave me alone and go mess with the people that are bad and do bad things to others. Make sense? People always make excuses for God and why he does things the way he does them,,,, but.... you're not supposed to question why.
As for there being a devil and burning in hell for eternal life, sorry, I do not believe that in any way.
One of the worlds famous questions is "Do you believe in God?"
How often do you hear someone say "Do you believe in the Devil?"
That was the only comment I'll be making in this particular thread. Just thought I'd put my 2 cents in on the subject. My philosophy is to just live the way you feel is the right way and be nice to others. In the end, I hope the way I thought was the right way.
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Actually, that doesn't make sense. If you believe in God, and you believe that God is a perfect being who is perfectly just, then you must also believe (logically) that He does not tolerate evil. Those who break His laws must face punishment. How would you rate a judge who let criminals go because he felt more compassion for them than he did their victims? If God is just, He must punish sin.
The next question is, if God punishes sin, how much punishment is there for sin?
The Bible answers that question in Romans 3:23 - "For All have sinned and come short of the glory of God."
In Isaiah 64:6, God says, "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."
Romans 6:23 - "For the wages of sin is death..."
In comparison to God's glory and perfection, we are ALL found wanting. We are ALL guilty. We are ALL going to hell as a result. You can try to discredit the Bible, but that won't deny the common sense of God's perfect justice.
So shag & foss, when you speak that not to believe also is 'faith based' how would you look at the middle ages where people believed that Dragons, Unicorns and Witches were 'real'. As real as their God. Did it take a leap of faith to deny the existence of Dragons, Unicorns and Witches? Were the scientists of the time defending a 'faith' when they told the populace that those were fancies of myth, and not flesh and blood?
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
I defend my statement as a comparable to the linking of atheism and it being faith based to other faith based beliefs throughout history. If believing in Dragons is faith based, just as believing in God, then is not believing in Dragons just as faith based as not believing in God?
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Define 'dragon.'
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Do you deny the existence of dragons?
NoLimit95
Dedicated LVC Member
Perfectly said, ALL! No one person is perfect, which means we all sin, which means if there is a hell, we'll all be going but to me, 6 foot under is the end of story. I really hope I'm wrong because, I know I'm a good person. What most people call "heaven" is actually an eternal city which the Bible calls the "new Jerusalem"
The new Jerusalem will be the eternal home of God's people. Of this place, the Bible says that "nothing unclean and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in [Jesus'] book of life" (Revelation 21:27).
We are told that all people will undergo a bodily resurrection from the dead, and all will appear before the judgment seat of Christ (Revelation 20:11-13). Though Jesus initially came to the earth as a Savior, He will now sit as Judge. Those whose names are not found written in his book of life will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15).
The idea that everyone will go to heaven and see their relatives is not a biblical idea at all. Jesus said that only those who believe in Him would find life, because "no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6). In Revelation 7:9 we are told that, in heaven, there will be a multitude of people from every tribe, language, people and nation who will have eternal life because of their faith in Jesus. Those who have rejected God will not be with Him.
There have been "near death experiences" but the mind obviously works in mysterious ways when you die. The brain still lives for some time, even though your body is dead. When a person is brought back to life, they then tell their story of what they saw. Was it peaceful? Sure it was, you were dead!
I don't question, or at least, I try not to but I really do believe God or Jesus, puts people through tests just to see how much they can take. I do believe there are evil people on this earth but the Devil, no. Just take the D off and it is what it is and the evil lies in "some" people.
As for the bible, It's a book that has thousands of contradictions in it. A book that was written from stories told down from person to person by mouth a long time after the events supposedly occurred. A book that was written to be about how the world used to be, when the world is no where like anything in that time period anymore. A book who's stories were stolen from other religions and changed a bit.
Why is it not still being written in? Just stopped writing in it for no reason I suppose. I hate even talking about this subject.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Some will think it heresy to say so, but The Bible, as we now have it, is the result of a committee of church big-wigs coming to a consensus several hundred years after Christ's life. Some of it should be taken virtually word for word. In other cases we have books that are obviously allegory. There it's important to get the meaning without getting hung up on the details of the story
KS
KS
fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
You believe you will be in heaven because you're good enough? The Bible clearly contradicts this. In fact, you point this out in the below paragraph:
So are you good enough or not?
Did it ever occur to you that God might be putting you through tests in order to get you to listen to Him?
Absolutely, unequivocally, categorically false. Clearly you've never even read the Bible, so you're not qualified to critique it. Be careful what you say about the Bible - you can insert your foot down your throat very quickly around here.
Because it was finished. Do you really have no idea what is contained in the Bible?
Probably because you don't know anything about it. Can't blame you.
Dragons are myth.
NoLimit95
Dedicated LVC Member
I guess time will tell.
Could be possible, it very well could be possible.
NoLimit95
Dedicated LVC Member
Is there any mention in the bible that dragons existed? If not, then there never were any.
The leviathan and behemoth? Most likely dinosaurs but nothing that could breathe fire.fossten
Dedicated LVC Member
Well done. You've learned to use 'bible' and 'dragon' in the Google search engine.Is there any mention in the bible that dragons existed? If not, then there never were any.
If you want to impress me, start finding some of those 'contradictions' you heard about but never read for yourself - but don't use Google.
NoLimit95
Dedicated LVC Member
Well done. You've learned to use 'bible' and 'dragon' in the Google search engine.
Actually when I was younger, I had to go to church every Sunday and it was a Methodist church. I remember the preacher talking about the dragon and this was coming from the Bible that he was holding. So yes, I did refer to Google on this. Never would have but since dragons were mentioned, I had to go back and check on it. Again, I would still say there were no animals at all that could breathe fire.
St. Paul United Methodist Church is the name of it. Located in Huntsville, AL. I went there for nearly 2 to 3 years.
Two points...
FIRST: Technically, it has not been proven that dragons and unicorns do not exist. The best that can be said is that we have no evidence of their existence.
SECOND: Weather you realize it or not, your question is a loaded one because it misleads through a false analogy; it is drawing an analogy between the physical (dragons, unicorns) and the metaphysical (God). Dragons and unicorns are both things that, if they do exist, would be physically present and leave some trace. So empirically observable evidence is a reasonable expectation and standard by which to judge. However, if God exists, he is transcendent and not bound by the laws of physics or the physical world. So, an expectation or empirically observable evidence is an unreasonable standard by which to judge.
Basically, your question inherently assumes a form of materialism; that only physical, material objects exist. That is an assumption that you have to justify or your question is inherently loaded. That flaw is in hrmwrm's argument as well. Both of your points simply assume materialism without justifying that assumption and then use that standard by which to judge; basically the rules of the debate are being changed to favor an Atheist point of view.
It is at that basic level of metaphysical assumptions (materialism, etc) that the heart of the differences between Atheism and Theism lie. All other differences stem from that. To ignore that is to ignore the core of the debate in favor of cheap rhetoric and sophomoric rationalizations.
To simply assume materialism without justifying it is to waste everyone's time here because you are simply going to be arguing past those who don't hold that materialist viewpoint.
Shag - what other things do we not ask for empirically observable evidence to judge whether or not it exists? Is God the only thing that rises above this standard because of the transcendent nature of God? Greeks, Vikings, Romans, etc. all believed they had empirical evidence of their gods, however that evidence was eventually cast aside as natural occurrences. However, it is much easier to create a transcendent God that isn't bond by any of this need for evidence. Does our idea of God just happen to coincide with the rather convenient explanation why there is no empirical evidence, or has it been designed that way?
So, is it faith that has you believing there are no dragons - or is it lack of evidence? Or maybe, you believe...
So, is it faith that has you believing there are no dragons - or is it lack of evidence? Or maybe, you believe...
The mind, ideas, identity, self, reason, etc. If you want to get into political theory; freedom, justice, rights, etc.
In fact a great example of where empirical observation fails is in the quest by Descartes to prove that he, in fact, existed. Here is a variation of the classic "evil genius" hypothetical scenario which demonstrates the problem (which was a big part of the Matrix films)...
Imagine a neurosurgeon whose expertise on the human brain and whose knowledge of daily events are such that he can, with probes, dictate a subject’s experiences. After he has implanted electrodes in the brain of a certain male volunteer, the surgeon causes him to experience the removal of the probes, although they are still in place; then to experience going home through the rain, spending the night with his wife, receiving a call from the surgeon in the morning asking him to return to the laboratory, and returning — all this while he is, in fact, still on the operating table.
The next day, the surgeon does actually remove the electrodes and sends the subject home, whereupon his wife inquires indignantly, “Where were you last night?”
“Right here with you,” the man replies.
“Oh, no, you weren’t,” she rejoins, “and I can prove it. I had the whole neighborhood out searching for you.”
Then the enlightened husband smiles and says, “Ah, now I see. That surgeon fooled me. He made me think I came home. But I was on the operating table the whole time.”
His smile quickly fades, however, never to return, because from that point forward the poor fellow can never be certain he is not still on the operating table.
— Charles L. Stevenson
In this thought exercise, no amount of empirically observable evidence can prove to you that you are not still being deceived by some "evil genius" (a neurosurgeon in this case). It is from a scenario similar to this one that Descartes' axiom, "I think, therefore I am" comes from.The next day, the surgeon does actually remove the electrodes and sends the subject home, whereupon his wife inquires indignantly, “Where were you last night?”
“Right here with you,” the man replies.
“Oh, no, you weren’t,” she rejoins, “and I can prove it. I had the whole neighborhood out searching for you.”
Then the enlightened husband smiles and says, “Ah, now I see. That surgeon fooled me. He made me think I came home. But I was on the operating table the whole time.”
His smile quickly fades, however, never to return, because from that point forward the poor fellow can never be certain he is not still on the operating table.
— Charles L. Stevenson