using V8 in datsun project

[jonese]

I'm in the middle of building a '72 240Z and have been researching powerplants to put in it. I came across an '03 LS engine and trans swap and was wondering if this would be worth a shot. The engine's stats seem impressive enough. A couple of things I'm worried about is the throttle by wire and the traction control systems. There are probably a lot more which is why I'm asking here. Thanks for any insight.

Oh and could someone tell me the width and length of the engine to make sure it fits in the engine bay.

 

[Quik LS]

it's likely a non-starter. you have to implement an entire area-network through-out the car - including the 7 seperate computer modules (FEM, REM, PCM, ..etc) using the CAN protocol.

not an easy task - but I would certainly like to see the outcome!

 

[Amoxi]

Just get a 350 small block, head to the stealership and buy some 350Z badges and show them what a real 350 can do.

 

[Quik LS]

this guy figured out how to stuff a pre-03 (so pre-CAN) V6 into a Miata....

This may offer an option....

http://www.miata.net/news/v6.html

 

[jonese]

7 control modules? Is it possible to bypass any of them? If I were to find the same engine in a t-bird would it have less of a wiring nightmare?
The 350 route is the tried and true method and while it will provide quite a screamer, I'm looking for something that won't add as much weight and quite frankly something a little more difficult. I'm looking for a good challenge because time I've got. Besides, all the fun is in building the car.

Is the 3.9 narrower than the DOHC 4.6?

 

[rocket5979]

7 control modules? Is it possible to bypass any of them? If I were to find the same engine in a t-bird would it have less of a wiring nightmare?
The 350 route is the tried and true method and while it will provide quite a screamer, I'm looking for something that won't add as much weight and quite frankly something a little more difficult. I'm looking for a good challenge because time I've got. Besides, all the fun is in building the car.

Is the 3.9 narrower than the DOHC 4.6?

Being that the 350 is a smaller engine then the 3.9 DOHC LS engine but made out of cast iron versus the aluminum engine/heads in the LS I would guess that the weights would work out to be near each other in the end. Why not just stuff a 454 in there or something really big? It would be cheaper than the LS motor and one heck of a lot easier to get into running condition without all the electronics. 396 stroker would be cool too. Any big engine would be cool and not common either.

 

[jolinc01]

this guy figured out how to stuff a pre-03 (so pre-CAN) V6 into a Miata....

This may offer an option....

http://www.miata.net/news/v6.html

quik they actually produced a 5.0 Liter V8 miata from i believe 1989-1992 . They were called Monster Miata's the did 0-60 in 4.6. They also still make a kit to convert a miata into a monster miata 5.0 Liter. They even have a supercharged model. Look it up on google the things are sweet.

 

[Quik LS]

right - I autocross with a bunch of Mata guys - they have stories of quite a few frankenmiatas.

the point of my post above was that it is possible to take a Lincoln engine (albeit a duratec 3.0) and use it in another vehicle. From the article - it took Ford engineers but at least it is possible. What I don't know if they used the Lincoln PCM or not - which would complicate things a lot.

Using the Lincoln V8 may not be the best choice in a project car - simply because of lack and the expense of the parts (which will only get worse now that the car is EOL).

to answer the question above - the 3.9L is narrower than the 4.6L. The 3.9 can be loaded from the underside of the vechile (which is what they do at the factory) - where as the 4.6L had to go in through the top - in the OLOA LS.

 

[Motodrew]

Ya these LS engines are so integregated with computers I can't imagine doing an engine swap. I don't have the time, nor the resources to complete such an advanced task.

 

[02V8Sport]

your better off getting a used drivetrain from a Skyline from Japan. ECU, trans, and motor with harnesses for $3500-$4000. You will have a RB26DETT with 400HP right out of the box.

 

[jonese]

thanks for the info everybody.

 

[SoonerLS]

7 control modules? Is it possible to bypass any of them? If I were to find the same engine in a t-bird would it have less of a wiring nightmare?

The only way to bypass any of the control modules would be to reprogram the whole damn works. With the CAN architecture, the modules are using each other's outputs as inputs, so they're all talking to each other. The PCM would certainly notice if any of them were missing or providing bad input.

AFAIK, the LS and T-Bird control systems are identical, so that probably wouldn't help you.

You might have better luck with Ford's 5.0 Cammer V8; it's meant to be installed in custom applications.

350. Chevy. Feh. :yuck:

 

[rocket5979]

The only way to bypass any of the control modules would be to reprogram the whole damn works. With the CAN architecture, the modules are using each other's outputs as inputs, so they're all talking to each other. The PCM would certainly notice if any of them were missing or providing bad input.

AFAIK, the LS and T-Bird control systems are identical, so that probably wouldn't help you.

You might have better luck with Ford's 5.0 Cammer V8; it's meant to be installed in custom applications.

350. Chevy. Feh. :yuck:

The Ford 5.0 Cammer is WAAAAY overpriced for the amount of power it puts out. Nice engine and all, but just not enough engine for the money.

 

[2001LS8Sport]

The only way to bypass any of the control modules would be to reprogram the whole damn works. With the CAN architecture, the modules are using each other's outputs as inputs, so they're all talking to each other. The PCM would certainly notice if any of them were missing or providing bad input.

AFAIK, the LS and T-Bird control systems are identical, so that probably wouldn't help you.

You might have better luck with Ford's 5.0 Cammer V8; it's meant to be installed in custom applications.

350. Chevy. Feh. :yuck:

Nahhh! You won't need to even consider all those extra modules, protocols, etc it you're willing to be creative. First, if you're using an engine with drive by wire, then get rid of it and go to cable operated throttle body. If you have VVT, you are going to have to figure out a way to lock it where you want it. You won't be able to control it any longer. Forget using the hydraulic fan...go electric. Then go buy you a FAST controller....and get the good one....and you're set to go. It will control the ignition to each cylinder and have sequential injection. Do some research on their website and you will be amazed at what they can do. They may even have VVT by now.

Your problem will be finding a way to control the transmission. I don't know of any aftermarket controllers for these. But some research may score you one. If nothing else, you may be able to adapt a more common tranny. (how about a stick!!) FAST may have or be working on a controller by now too.

The 3.9 is narrower than the 4.6 32V. That is the single biggest reason it's not offered in this car. However, a 4.6 has tremendous aftermarket support and may be the much better choice for you....if you can get it to fit the Z. The small block Chevy transplant is very common and there are complete kits available. Furthermore, one of the late LSx engines with a FAST controller will make fantastic horsepower and is very easy to package in the tight constraints of the Z. But it's a common swap....so if you want to be different, your train of thought is very encouraging. Good luck and let us know what you decide!!

 

[SoonerLS]

Forget using the hydraulic fan...go electric.

The '03-'06 LSes have electric fans; their electrical systems can handle the load thanks to (IIRC) an uprated alternator. (He found an '03 V8.)

Your problem will be finding a way to control the transmission. I don't know of any aftermarket controllers for these. But some research may score you one.

The 5R55N isn't exactly uncommon--it's used in the Explorers (and maybe the F-series trucks, but I don't know), so those guys have been working on them for years. The 5R55S is used in the new Mustangs, so the aftermarket for it should be opening up soon. Getting a non-stock PCM that can control both the 3.9 and the 5R55N/S might be a neat trick, though.

I would, however, agree that a Tremec (or other non-slushbox) would be a much better choice, though.

 

[rocket5979]

The 5R55N isn't exactly uncommon--it's used in the Explorers (and maybe the F-series trucks, but I don't know), so those guys have been working on them for years. The 5R55S is used in the new Mustangs, so the aftermarket for it should be opening up soon. Getting a non-stock PCM that can control both the 3.9 and the 5R55N/S might be a neat trick, though.

The 02+ Explorers have the 5R55W, not the N. Very very very similar tranny's but still different.

The 5R55E which came in some of the older gen Explorers isn't the same as these newer gen 5R tranny's like the N, S, W models.

Level 10 already offers a rebuild for the 5R55W, S, & N tranny;s that will hold to 700rwhp and 700rwtq. If I remember correctly the last time I talked to them they gave me a quote of around $3,000 without an upgraded TC included.

The better bet would be to swap to an Explorer 4.6 that is managed by the same PTEC computer and run a standalone 4R70W tranny w/ Baumann shift kit and TCI standalone trans controller.

Just tossing idea out at ya's.

 

[Palmguy]

The '03-'06 LSes have electric fans; their electrical systems can handle the load thanks to (IIRC) an uprated alternator. (He found an '03 V8.)


The 5R55N isn't exactly uncommon--it's used in the Explorers (and maybe the F-series trucks, but I don't know), so those guys have been working on them for years. The 5R55S is used in the new Mustangs, so the aftermarket for it should be opening up soon. Getting a non-stock PCM that can control both the 3.9 and the 5R55N/S might be a neat trick, though.

I would, however, agree that a Tremec (or other non-slushbox) would be a much better choice, though.

The 5R55 isn't used in any full sized truck applications...the 4R70W (or 4R100) is still used.

I would think an standalone controller will come out eventually...such a product does exist for the 4R70W, probably because of the Mustang application...I'd agree that the use of the 5R55S in the Mustang will definitely help the aftermarket.

 

[Quik LS]

5R55N 00-02 Lincoln LS6 and LS8, 00-02 Jaguar S-Type, 00-01 Mountaineer, 00-01 Explorer, 00-01 Sport Trac, and 00-02 Thunderbird
5R55W 02-Up Explorer, 03 Lincoln Aviator
5R55S 03-Up Lincoln LS6 and LS8, 03-Up Thunderbird, 03-04 Expedition, 03-04 Explorer
5R55E 97-06 Ranger 97-06, 97 Aerostar

 

[rocket5979]

5R55S 03-Up Lincoln LS6 and LS8, 03-Up Thunderbird, 03-04 Expedition, 03-04 Explorer

The 5R55W tranny was used in the 02+ Explorers not the S.

And in the 2000-2001 Mountaineer, if they had the 5.0 V8, they had the 4R70W just like the 00-01 5.0 V8 Explorers did.

 

[Quik LS]

Explorer 02-03 5 Sp Rwd/4x4 V6 4.0l V8 4.6l 5r55w
Explorer 04-05 5 Sp Rwd/4x4 V6 4.0l V8 4.6l 5r55s
Explorer 06 5 Sp Rwd/4x4 V6 4.0l 5r55s

 

[SoonerLS]

The 02+ Explorers have the 5R55W, not the N. Very very very similar tranny's but still different.

Last I checked, my '99 Explorer had a 5R55N behind its 4.0 Cammer...

 

[rocket5979]

Last I checked, my '99 Explorer had a 5R55N behind its 4.0 Cammer...

Um, no and no... Not a 5R55N and surely not a cammer engine no matter what Super Six says. Your truck should have the 5R55E tranny. It is a 4.0 SOHC V6. Where did you get the "cammer" nomenclature from anyways? The only "cammer" engine I know of that Ford makes is the 5.0 cammer which is a 4V DOHC 4.6 bored and sleeved out to 3.70" to achieve 302ci. Anything else besides the 427 is not a cammer.

 

[TheRebel]

Not to hijack, but since "cammer" was orginally used for the 427 SOHC engine of 60's (also the most powerful factory production engine of the time, sorry Hemi's but FORD did have you beat) then couldn't "cammer" be used for any OHC engine?

 

[br94mk8]

id go with a 502 crate motor that would be sick, super charg it too

 

[rocket5979]

Not to hijack, but since "cammer" was orginally used for the 427 SOHC engine of 60's (also the most powerful factory production engine of the time, sorry Hemi's but FORD did have you beat) then couldn't "cammer" be used for any OHC engine?

I don't think so. It seems that "cammer" should and has only been used on some Ford V8 engines, only one of which is still made. It appears that the V6 crowd picked up on the cool sounding name of it and some dubbed their 4.0's as cammers now too. If Ford didn't produce it that way and name it such then it isn't a Cammer. That is why I don't call my 4.6 SOHC engine a 4.6 cammer, because it wasn't originally called that, so why add that name onto it?