Why are liberals so condescending?

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Gerard Alexander: Why are liberals so condescending?
By Gerard Alexander
Sunday, February 7, 2010

Every political community includes some members who insist that their side has all the answers and that their adversaries are idiots. But American liberals, to a degree far surpassing conservatives, appear committed to the proposition that their views are correct, self-evident, and based on fact and reason, while conservative positions are not just wrong but illegitimate, ideological and unworthy of serious consideration. Indeed, all the appeals to bipartisanship notwithstanding, President Obama and other leading liberal voices have joined in a chorus of intellectual condescension.

It's an odd time for liberals to feel smug. But even with Democratic fortunes on the wane, leading liberals insist that they have almost nothing to learn from conservatives. Many Democrats describe their troubles simply as a PR challenge, a combination of conservative misinformation -- as when Obama charges that critics of health-care reform are peddling fake fears of a "Bolshevik plot" -- and the country's failure to grasp great liberal accomplishments. "We were so busy just getting stuff done . . . that I think we lost some of that sense of speaking directly to the American people about what their core values are," the president told ABC's George Stephanopoulos in a recent interview. The benighted public is either uncomprehending or deliberately misinformed (by conservatives).

This condescension is part of a liberal tradition that for generations has impoverished American debates over the economy, society and the functions of government -- and threatens to do so again today, when dialogue would be more valuable than ever.

Liberals have dismissed conservative thinking for decades, a tendency encapsulated by Lionel Trilling's 1950 remark that conservatives do not "express themselves in ideas but only in action or in irritable mental gestures which seek to resemble ideas." During the 1950s and '60s, liberals trivialized the nascent conservative movement. Prominent studies and journalistic accounts of right-wing politics at the time stressed paranoia, intolerance and insecurity, rendering conservative thought more a psychiatric disorder than a rival. In 1962, Richard Hofstadter referred to "the Manichaean style of thought, the apocalyptic tendencies, the love of mystification, the intolerance of compromise that are observable in the right-wing mind."

This sense of liberal intellectual superiority dropped off during the economic woes of the 1970s and the Reagan boom of the 1980s. (Jimmy Carter's presidency, buffeted by economic and national security challenges, generated perhaps the clearest episode of liberal self-doubt.) But these days, liberal confidence and its companion disdain for conservative thinking are back with a vengeance, finding energetic expression in politicians' speeches, top-selling books, historical works and the blogosphere. This attitude comes in the form of four major narratives about who conservatives are and how they think and function.

The first is the "vast right-wing conspiracy," a narrative made famous by Hillary Rodham Clinton but hardly limited to her. This vision maintains that conservatives win elections and policy debates not because they triumph in the open battle of ideas but because they deploy brilliant and sinister campaign tactics. A dense network of professional political strategists such as Karl Rove, think tanks such as the Heritage Foundation and industry groups allegedly manipulate information and mislead the public. Democratic strategist Rob Stein crafted a celebrated PowerPoint presentation during George W. Bush's presidency that traced conservative success to such organizational factors.

This liberal vision emphasizes the dissemination of ideologically driven views from sympathetic media such as the Fox News Channel. For example, Chris Mooney's book "The Republican War on Science" argues that policy debates in the scientific arena are distorted by conservatives who disregard evidence and reflect the biases of industry-backed Republican politicians or of evangelicals aimlessly shielding the world from modernity. In this interpretation, conservative arguments are invariably false and deployed only cynically. Evidence of the costs of cap-and-trade carbon rationing is waved away as corporate propaganda; arguments against health-care reform are written off as hype orchestrated by insurance companies.

This worldview was on display in the popular liberal reaction to the Supreme Court's recent ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission. Rather than engage in a discussion about the complexities of free speech in politics, liberals have largely argued that the decision will "open the floodgates for special interests" to influence American elections, as the president warned in his State of the Union address. In other words, it was all part of the conspiracy to support conservative candidates for their nefarious, self-serving ends.

It follows that the thinkers, politicians and citizens who advance conservative ideas must be dupes, quacks or hired guns selling stories they know to be a sham. In this spirit, New York Times columnist Paul Krugman regularly dismisses conservative arguments not simply as incorrect, but as lies. Writing last summer, Krugman pondered the duplicity he found evident in 35 years' worth of Wall Street Journal editorial writers: "What do these people really believe? I mean, they're not stupid -- life would be a lot easier if they were. So they know they're not telling the truth. But they obviously believe that their dishonesty serves a higher truth. . . . The question is, what is that higher truth?"

In Krugman's world, there is no need to take seriously the arguments of "these people" -- only to plumb the depths of their errors and imagine hidden motives.

But, if conservative leaders are crass manipulators, then the rank-and-file Americans who support them must be manipulated at best, or stupid at worst. This is the second variety of liberal condescension, exemplified in Thomas Frank's best-selling 2004 book, "What's the Matter With Kansas?" Frank argued that working-class voters were so distracted by issues such as abortion that they were induced into voting against their own economic interests. Then-Vermont Gov. Howard Dean, later chairman of the Democratic National Committee, echoed that theme in his 2004 presidential run, when he said Republicans had succeeded in getting Southern whites to focus on "guns, God and gays" instead of economic redistribution.

And speaking to a roomful of Democratic donors in 2008, then-presidential candidate Obama offered a similar (and infamous) analysis when he suggested that residents of Rust Belt towns "cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations" about job losses. When his comments became public, Obama backed away from their tenor but insisted that "I said something that everybody knows is true."

In this view, we should pay attention to conservative voters' underlying problems but disregard the policy demands they voice; these are illusory, devoid of reason or evidence. This form of liberal condescension implies that conservative masses are in the grip of false consciousness. When they express their views at town hall meetings or "tea party" gatherings, it might be politically prudent for liberals to hear them out, but there is no reason to actually listen.

The third version of liberal condescension points to something more sinister. In his 2008 book, "Nixonland," progressive writer Rick Perlstein argued that Richard Nixon created an enduring Republican strategy of mobilizing the ethnic and other resentments of some Americans against others. Similarly, in their 1992 book, "Chain Reaction," Thomas Byrne Edsall and Mary D. Edsall argued that Nixon and Reagan talked up crime control, low taxes and welfare reform to cloak racial animus and help make it mainstream. It is now an article of faith among many liberals that Republicans win elections because they tap into white prejudice against blacks and immigrants [Southern Strategy].

Race doubtless played a significant role in the shift of Deep South whites to the Republican Party during and after the 1960s. But the liberal narrative has gone essentially unchanged since then -- recall former president Carter's recent assertion that opposition to Obama reflects racism -- even though survey research has shown a dramatic decline in prejudiced attitudes among white Americans in the intervening decades. Moreover, the candidates and agendas of both parties demonstrate an unfortunate willingness to play on prejudices, whether based on race, region, class, income, or other factors.

Finally, liberals condescend to the rest of us when they say conservatives are driven purely by emotion and anxiety -- including fear of change -- whereas liberals have the harder task of appealing to evidence and logic. Former vice president Al Gore made this case in his 2007 book, "The Assault on Reason," in which he expressed fear that American politics was under siege from a coalition of religious fundamentalists, foreign policy extremists and industry groups opposed to "any reasoning process that threatens their economic goals." This right-wing politics involves a gradual "abandonment of concern for reason or evidence" and relies on propaganda to maintain public support, he wrote.

Prominent liberal academics also propagate these beliefs. George Lakoff, a linguist at the University of California at Berkeley and a consultant to Democratic candidates, says flatly that liberals, unlike conservatives, "still believe in Enlightenment reason," while Drew Westen, an Emory University psychologist and Democratic consultant, argues that the GOP has done a better job of mastering the emotional side of campaigns because Democrats, alas, are just too intellectual. "They like to read and think," Westen wrote. "They thrive on policy debates, arguments, statistics, and getting the facts right."

Markos Moulitsas, publisher of the influential progressive Web site Daily Kos, commissioned a poll, which he released this month, designed to show how many rank-and-file Republicans hold odd or conspiratorial beliefs -- including 23 percent who purportedly believe that their states should secede from the Union. Moulitsas concluded that Republicans are "divorced from reality" and that the results show why "it is impossible for elected Republicans to work with Democrats to improve our country." His condescension is superlative: Of the respondents who favored secession, he wonders, "Can we cram them all into the Texas Panhandle, create the state of Dumb-[expletive]-istan, and build a wall around them to keep them from coming into America illegally?"

I doubt it would take long to design a survey questionnaire that revealed strange, ill-informed and paranoid beliefs among average Democrats. Or does Moulitsas think Jay Leno talked only to conservatives for his "Jaywalking" interviews?

These four liberal narratives not only justify the dismissal of conservative thinking as biased or irrelevant -- they insist on it. By no means do all liberals adhere to them, but they are mainstream in left-of-center thinking. Indeed, when the president met with House Republicans in Baltimore recently, he assured them that he considers their ideas, but he then rejected their motives in virtually the same breath.

"There may be other ideas that you guys have," Obama said. "I am happy to look at them, and I'm happy to embrace them. . . . But the question I think we're going to have to ask ourselves is, as we move forward, are we going to be examining each of these issues based on what's good for the country, what the evidence tells us, or are we going to be trying to position ourselves so that come November, we're able to say, 'The other party, it's their fault'?"

Of course, plenty of conservatives are hardly above feeling superior. But the closest they come to portraying liberals as systematically mistaken in their worldview is when they try to identify ideological dogmatism in a narrow slice of the left (say, among Ivy League faculty members), in a particular moment (during the health-care debate, for instance) or in specific individuals (such as Obama or House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, whom some conservatives accuse of being stealth ideologues). A few conservative voices may say that all liberals are always wrong, but these tend to be relatively marginal figures or media gadflies such as Glenn Beck.

In contrast, an extraordinary range of liberal writers, commentators and leaders -- from Jon Stewart's "Daily Show" to Obama's White House, with many stops in between -- have developed or articulated narratives that apply to virtually all conservatives at all times.

To many liberals, this worldview may be appealing, but it severely limits our national conversation on critical policy issues. Perhaps most painfully, liberal condescension has distorted debates over American poverty for nearly two generations.

Starting in the 1960s, the original neoconservative critics such as Daniel Patrick Moynihan expressed distress about the breakdown of inner-city families, only to be maligned as racist and ignored for decades -- until appalling statistics forced critics to recognize their views as relevant. Long-standing conservative concerns over the perils of long-term welfare dependency were similarly villainized as insincere and mean-spirited -- until public opinion insisted they be addressed by a Democratic president and a Republican Congress in the 1996 welfare reform law. But in the meantime, welfare policies that discouraged work, marriage and the development of skills remained in place, with devastating effects.

Ignoring conservative cautions and insights is no less costly today. Some observers have decried an anti-intellectual strain in contemporary conservatism, detected in George W. Bush's aw-shucks style, Sarah Palin's college-hopping and the occasional conservative campaigns against egghead intellectuals. But alongside that, the fact is that conservative-leaning scholars, economists, jurists and legal theorists have never produced as much detailed analysis and commentary on American life and policy as they do today.

Perhaps the most important conservative insight being depreciated is the durable warning from free-marketeers that government programs often fail to yield what their architects intend. Democrats have been busy expanding, enacting or proposing major state interventions in financial markets, energy and health care. Supporters of such efforts want to ensure that key decisions will be made in the public interest and be informed, for example, by sound science, the best new medical research or prudent standards of private-sector competition. But public-choice economists have long warned that when decisions are made in large, centralized government programs, political priorities almost always trump other goals.

Even liberals should think twice about the prospect of decisions on innovative surgeries, light bulbs and carbon quotas being directed by legislators grandstanding for the cameras. Of course, thinking twice would be easier if more of them were listening to conservatives at all.

Gerard Alexander is an associate professor of politics at the University of Virginia. He will be online to chat with readers on Monday, February 8, at 11 a.m. Submit your questions and comments before or during the discussion. On Monday, he will also deliver the American Enterprise Institute's Bradley Lecture, "Do Liberals Know Best? Intellectual Self-Confidence and the Claim to a Monopoly on Knowledge."
 
I think we need to look at this subject from the other end.

It's not that liberals are condescending---It's that:

There are those among us who, in order to feel good about themselves, and feed their egos, develop an attitude of condescension. This expresses itself in liberalism.
"I'm so wonderful. If you just listen to me, and let me lead you around by your nose, I'll pat your head and make everything glorious for you."

The lower end of the liberal progression are so positioned because they want what the upper end of the chain have promised.

KS
 
1. Win at all costs.

2. Hide your agenda because the pee-pul will never vote for it if you reveal its true nature.

3. See #1.
 
Peter Schweizer: The arrogance of uneducated liberals
Posted: August 01, 2008, 9:00 PM by Kelly McParland

In the last of three excerpts from his book, Makers and Takers, author Peter Schweizer attacks the myth of ignorant conservatives and enlightened liberals

During the 2000 election, George W. Bush was often given the moniker “stupid.” A Boston television reporter tripped him up with a “pop quiz,” asking him the names of foreign leaders. At the same time, his opponent, Vice President Al Gore, was presented as the consummate intellectual. He went out of his way to drop phrases like “Cartesian revolution” and used complex metaphors like “the clockwork universe” in his speeches.

Indeed, Gore seemed obsessed with proving how smart he was — and the media was his willing accomplice. The media reported at least a dozen times that Gore was “the smartest kid in the class.” Bloomberg News observed that Gore had little patience for those “a few IQ points short of genius.” The New York Times asked (in all seriousness), “Is Gore too smart to be president?” His biggest challenge, the paper explained, was “to show that he is a regular guy despite a perceived surplus of gravitas, which at least some Americans seem to find intimidating.” This liberal assumption that a candidate can be just too darn smart to win a presidential election in this country goes back to Adlai Stevenson.

What proof was there of Gore’s alleged gravitas? How exactly did the media know that Gore was so smart and Bush so dumb? In fact, the record did not indicate any of this was true. It was often alleged, probably with reason, that Bush only got into Yale because his father had gone there and his grandfather had been a Connecticut senator. Yet Gore, with high school Bs and Cs (his only As were in art), got into Harvard in part because (like other politicians’ sons, including a raft of Kennedys) his father was a famous senator. At Harvard, Gore’s grades did not improve. In his sophomore year he earned a D, a C-minus, two Cs, two C-pluses and one B-minus. He was in the bottom fifth of his class his first two years in school. Later he flunked out of divinity school (failing five of his eight classes) and dropped out of Vanderbilt University Law School. Gore was once asked (after having served in the U.S. Senate for several years) to name his favourite president. “President Knox,” he replied.
Senator John Kerry, when he ran against George W. Bush in 2004, was likewise heralded as an intellectual in contrast to the ill-informed Bush. It started in 1999, when Kerry “questioned Mr. Bush’s intelligence,” as The New York Times put it.

“All over this country people are asking whether or not George Bush is smart enough to be president of the United States,” Kerry said. During the 2004 campaign he continued with that theme, supported by the Democratic Party, liberal commentators and the mainstream news media. Howell Raines, former executive editor of The New York Times, explained during the election that it was quite obvious that Bush was a dim bulb in contrast to Kerry: “Does anyone in America doubt that Kerry has a higher IQ than Bush? I’m sure the candidates’ SATs and college transcripts would put Kerry far ahead.”
Fact checking was apparently not necessary for Raines. Though at the time, of course, no one could actually check because Kerry kept refusing to release his transcripts from Yale, or any information about intelligence tests that he would have taken as a Navy officer. Bush had taken the equivalent Air Force Qualifying Test, and they would have made a good point of comparison. But the results were not, Kerry said, “relevant” to the campaign, even though his campaign was based in part on Bush’s lack of intelligence. (A similar excuse was made in regard to Kerry’s military records, though his campaign was largely based on his claim to have been a hero in Vietnam — before he became an outspoken critic of the war. In other words, he was for the war before he was against it.)

Then a Navy veteran named Sam Sewell noticed something on the Kerry campaign Web site. In one of the documents posted on the Web page, an obscure military report offered a cryptic score that was actually the result of an IQ-like qualifying test Kerry had taken in 1966. As it happened, George W. Bush had taken the same test just a few years later. Columnist Steve Sailer determined that Bush’s score put him in the 95th percentile, giving him an IQ in the 120s. Kerry’s score was slightly lower, putting him in the 91st percentile.
When these results became public, NBC’s Tom Brokaw asked Kerry about them. He was more than a bit peeved. Kerry dodged the question and wondered out loud how they became public in the first place. “I don’t know how they’ve done it, because my record is not public,” he told Brokaw. “So I don’t know where you’re getting that from.” A few days later, on the Don Imus show, Brokaw revealed just how much it had bugged Kerry that he had been beaten by Bush on the IQ test. After the cameras stopped rolling, Brokaw recalled, Kerry explained, “I must have been drinking the night before I took that military aptitude test.”

After Bush won re-election, it became clear why Kerry hadn’t wanted to release his college records. The Boston Globe discovered that Bush actually had higher grades at Yale and also had higher SAT scores. (Bush’s scores were also higher than those of Senator Bill Bradley, another liberal often described as learned and brilliant.)

But the “conservatives are dunces” mantra goes well beyond George W. Bush. Liberals take it for granted — literally — that Democratic presidents are brighter than Republicans. Ronald Reagan was famously called an “amiable dunce” by Clark Clifford, an opinion widely shared among the Georgetown social set. Doonesbury creator (and former Yalie) Garry Trudeau even wrote a play about what an ignoramus Reagan was. President George H.W. Bush, despite having graduated from Yale in two and a half years, was likewise dismissed as a buffoon.

In 2001, the Lovenstein Institute released a report claiming scientific proof that liberal presidents were more intelligent than their Republican counterparts. In a press release, the institute claimed that Bill Clinton had an Einstein-like IQ of 182, followed closely by Jimmy Carter and JFK. The Republicans? George H.W. Bush might have been Phi Beta Kappa at Yale, but his IQ was a below-average 98. Lower still were those dunces, Eisenhower and Reagan. George W. Bush (with degrees from Yale and Harvard) was borderline retarded. His IQ was said to be 91 — literally half that of Clinton’s.

A few months later, another study emerged demonstrating that the average IQ of states that had voted for Gore was much higher than those that went for Bush. Connecticut was given an average IQ of 113, while conservative Utah scored an 87. (Again, barely above retarded.) According to these numbers, the 16 smartest states all went for Kerry, while the 26 dumbest went for Bush.

These sensational findings seemingly confirmed what many in the media already believed. Trudeau ran a Doonesbury strip about it. The Economist magazine, the St. Petersburg Times, London’s Daily Mirror, radio talk show hosts and liberal bloggers eagerly ran with the story. Urbandude.com typified the liberal attitude when he smugly noted, “I’ve got a Mensa certified IQ of 132.” But apparently he wasn’t smart enough: Both studies were complete fictions. (“Alas, we were victims of a hoax,” admitted The Economist. “No such data exists.”)

The curious thing is how easily these findings were accepted by some in the media. Imagine if someone had published a report claiming that conservatives had much higher IQs than liberals. Would newspapers and commentators run such a story uncritically? To the contrary, they would likely first check on the results and subject the findings to serious scrutiny. In short, the bias in favour of “smart liberals” seems widely accepted in our society.

Popular culture has greatly contributed to the myth of ignorant conservatives and enlightened liberals. One study by a group of academics found that by examining 124 characters in 47 popular political films spanning five decades, liberals were routinely depicted as “more intelligent, friendly and good” than conservatives.

The arrogance of some liberals in this regard is astonishing. You don’t even have to be highly educated yourself to complain about how uneducated conservatives are. Michael Moore, college dropout, travels all over Europe talking about how “idiotic and uneducated” conservatives are. He also said: “Once you settle for a Ronald Reagan, then it’s easy to settle for a George Bush, and once you settle for a George Bush, then it’s real easy to settle for Bush II. You know, this should be evolution, instead it’s devolution. What’s next?”

Professor Bruce Fleming, a self-professed liberal, explains this liberal attitude perfectly. “All of us are ignorant of many things. It’s just that the liberal here thinkss he knows what the conservative is ignorant of.”

This sublime confidence in their own superiority leads to a closed-minded insistence that liberals know what is right. Scholars at Stanford, the University of Illinois and Williams conducted four studies on the subject of “asymmetric insight.” Basically, this is the notion that some people claim to know more than others. Surveys were conducted with hundreds of students. Among their findings: Liberals are much more likely to believe that their knowledge of conservatives and their arguments surpasses that of conservatives themselves. The results were similar when it came to the abortion issue. Abortion rights advocates claimed to have greater knowledge and insight than those who are pro-life.
 
'Condescending liberals' of the US unite

A Washington Post article that sought to explain why liberals are so condescending was full of dubious assertions

Dan Kennedy

There is nothing self-hating liberals love more than to be told they're elitists who detest and fear the real America. So when Gerard Alexander pitched an essay to the Washington Post explaining why liberals are so condescending, the editors must have been overcome by paroxysms of joy.

"See how we grovel!" you can imagine them thinking. "Surely no one will accuse us of liberal bias if we are willing to publish a conservative screed as mendacious as this."

Alexander's piece, published on Sunday, is filled with dubious assertions and strawman arguments from beginning to end. But it was not until I was almost through it that I came across a passage so ridiculous that I burst out laughing. Alexander writes:

"Some observers have decried an anti-intellectual strain in contemporary conservatism, detected in George W Bush's aw-shucks style, Sarah Palin's college-hopping and the occasional conservative campaigns against egghead intellectuals."

Whatever case liberals wish to make against Bush, I am reasonably confident that it has nothing to do with his hail-fellow-well-met persona. His unthinking blunders into war, torture and trillion-dollar-plus deficits have rather more to do with it.

But it was the idea that liberals hold Palin in contempt because she switched colleges a few times that had me in hysterics. The real problem is that none of those colleges taught her not to answer "we win, they lose" when asked about her approach to foreign policy.

Then again, this is a woman who prayed for God to build a natural-gas pipeline, and who delivered a cheery greeting to a rightwing hate group that wanted Alaska to secede from the United States. (The first dude, Todd Palin, was actually a member.) Trust me on this, Dr Alexander: Palin's propensity for switching colleges is the least of it.

Alexander, a political-science professor at the University of Virginia, criticises Barack Obama for complaining that he's been characterised as a "Bolshevik", ignoring the fact that his opponents regularly refer to him as a "socialist". He rips New York Times columnist Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize-winning economist, for a blog post in which Krugman went after the Wall Street Journal's editorial page. And he somehow finds fault with author Thomas Frank and 2004 Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean for observing – correctly – that Republicans succeed in large measure because they use rightwing positions on social issues to induce working people into voting against their economic self-interests.

Weirdly enough, Alexander even cites a poll of Republicans commissioned by the liberal blog Daily Kos as evidence that liberals look down on conservatives. You would think the poll results themselves might give Alexander reason to pause: 39% believe Obama should be impeached; 63% say he's a socialist; 58% think Obama was either born outside the United States or aren't sure; and 31% believe Obama is "a racist who hates white people".

Alexander doesn't bother to dispute the methodology of the poll. Instead, he blandly asserts, "I doubt it would take long to design a survey questionnaire that revealed strange, ill-informed and paranoid beliefs among average Democrats."

What does Alexander mean? He provided an answer in an online chat with readers on Monday. In response to a sensible comment noting that conservatives are far more likely than liberals to believe that evolution is false, global warming is a hoax and Obama was born outside the US, Alexander responded:

"[W]hich group is more likely to believe that the Bush White House had advanced warning of al-Qaida's attack on the US? That Aids was developed in a US military lab and used deliberately to infect people? That oil companies take as profit most of what we pay at the pump?"

In other words, crazy opinions based on falsehoods that have become mainstream thought among Republicans are no worse than crazy opinions based on falsehoods that are held by a tiny fringe group on the far left. Oh, blessed balance. (And why did he throw in that bit about the oil companies? I think we all know that "most" of what we pay for gasoline isn't profit, but does anyone question that the oil business isn't pretty damned lucrative?)

The new poster boy of the Republican party, Massachusetts senator Scott Brown, got elected in part by claiming that last year's $787bn stimulus package "failed to create one new job". It's a statement that brands him as being fundamentally unserious. Last fall, Mark Zandi, chief economist for Moody's Economy.com and an adviser to John McCain during the 2008 presidential campaign, told the New York Times that the stimulus had created or saved more than 1.1 million jobs, and that, if anything, it should have been bigger.

It's hard not to be condescending in light of Brown's ignorant (or cynical) remarks, or Oklahoma senator James Inhofe's religious crusade against atmospheric science, or the never-ending debate over so-called intelligent design, which is nothing more than creationism dressed up in academic garb.

"American liberals, to a degree far surpassing conservatives," Alexander writes, "appear committed to the proposition that their views are correct, self-evident, and based on fact and reason, while conservative positions are not just wrong but illegitimate, ideological and unworthy of serious consideration."

There's a reason for that, but it's not the one Alexander wants you to believe.
_________________________

So, shag - poster of silly articles - why do you think that liberals view conservative positions as "not just wrong but illegitimate, ideological and unworthy of serious consideration"? ;)
 
Foxy, do you not realize that your article, in attempting to rebut the Alexander piece, just confirmed it?

While it strives to make points that rebuke the article, the attitude the article approaches in attempting to rebuke the claims (as if liberal positions are self-evident truths and any deviation from that is proof of fault) only serves to confirm what Alexander was saying.

The article parses, takes things out of context; taking the anecdotal evidence of Palin's "college-hopping" as literal, for instance. It also makes the mistake that taking liberal views as self-evident truths instead of considering conservative views as having some legitimacy. For instance, it demonizes conservatives in part because, according to the Daily Kos poll, 63% view Obama as a socialist; nevermind that 55% of the country does as well, according to a recent poll. There can be, a priori, no legitimacy whatsoever to that claim.

At every turn, the article treats leftist views as dogma and any and all deviations from those views as proof of a lack of intellectual sophistication and lack of legitimacy of conservative views.

Foxy, you article is written by a liberal and for a liberal audience. While it may personally justify your rejection of the Alexander article, it only confirms the truth in Alexander's article to non-liberals.

As to your question, foxy, you are the best one to answer that. Your approach here is dismiss conservative views without serious consideration; to delegitimize them instead of discussing and debating the ideas honestly and in good faith on their merits; often by promoting one of the four narratives Alexander laid out in his article. Why don't you enlighten us. ;)

It is very telling that you don't contest the notion that liberals view conservative positions as "not just wrong but illegitimate, ideological and unworthy of serious consideration".
 
Foxy, do you not realize that your article, in attempting to rebut the Alexander piece, just confirmed it?

While it strives to make points that rebuke the article, the attitude the article approaches in attempting to rebuke the claims (as if liberal positions are self-evident truths and any deviation from that is proof of fault) only serves to confirm what Alexander was saying.

Of course I do shaggy - why do you think I pulled out the very 'money' quote you used as well.... with a little wink?

The article parses, takes things out of context; taking the anecdotal evidence of Palin's "college-hopping" as literal, for instance. It also makes the mistake that taking liberal views as self-evident truths instead of considering conservative views as having some legitimacy. For instance, it demonizes conservatives in part because, according to the Daily Kos poll, 63% view Obama as a socialist; nevermind that 55% of the country does as well, according to recent polls. There can be, a priori, no legitimacy whatsoever to that claim.

We shouldn't take Alexander's article 'literally' - really shag - why not? You are taking Kennedy's article that way... Alexander's article parses, takes things out of context, demonizes liberals, doesn't take into consideration liberal views...

Foxy, you article is written by a liberal and for a liberal audience. While it may personally justify your rejection of the Alexander article, it only confirms the truth in Alexander's article to non-liberals.

Hmmm... could it be that Alexander's article was written by a conservative for a conservative audience? Nah - that couldn't be the case...

As to your question, foxy, you are the best one to answer that. Your approach here is dismiss conservative views without serious consideration; to delegitimize them instead of discussing and debating the ideas honestly and in good faith on their merits; often by promoting one of the four narratives Alexander laid out in his article. Why don't you enlighten us. ;)

It is very telling that you don't contest the notion that liberals view conservative positions as "not just wrong but illegitimate, ideological and unworthy of serious consideration".

And it is just as enlightening shag - that you don't contest the notion that conservatives are the only true Americans and somehow are the only group seemingly deemed by God to be the chosen people to hold and preserve the 'real, true American values'. That liberals are evil, no good, American hating socialist pigs that will tear down the American stars and stripes and replace it with a hammer and sickle or maybe even a swastika.
 
We shouldn't take Alexander's article 'literally' - really shag - why not? You are taking Kennedy's article that way... Alexander's article parses, takes things out of context, demonizes liberals, doesn't take into consideration liberal views...

Apparently context and honesty don't matter to you. Are you trying to bait by making false accusations about Alexander's article?

Rule 5: Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon. It’s hard to counterattack ridicule, and it infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage.

Hmmm... could it be that Alexander's article was written by a conservative for a conservative audience?

The fact that it was published in the Washington Post (a source with a rather blatant liberal bias) suggests otherwise...

And it is just as enlightening shag - that you don't contest the notion that conservatives are the only true Americans and somehow are the only group seemingly deemed by God to be the chosen people to hold and preserve the 'real, true American values'. That liberals are evil, no good, American hating socialist pigs that will tear down the American stars and stripes and replace it with a hammer and sickle or maybe even a swastika.

That absurd notion has not been injected into this thread until you injected it just now.

In creating a rather blatant straw man like this, it is pretty clear that you are simply looking to delegitimize by any means necessary.

Thanks for, once again, confirming Alexander's article. ;)
 
So, shag...why do you think that liberals view conservative positions as "not just wrong but illegitimate, ideological and unworthy of serious consideration"? ;)

There are any number of factors. From the fact that academia and the media have long been dominated by the left, to the moral appeals upon which calls for social justice are rhetorically rooted, to ideological roots; specifically the notion that society inevitably progresses (with almost prophetic certainty by many elites) and the ideologically driven epistemological conceit (what Hayek called the "Fatal Conceit") that humanity is capable of directly controlling infinitely complex social interactions and improving on them through rational principles.

Do you think that humans are capable of that level of knowledge?

Do you think the four interlinking narratives that Mr. Alexander speaks of preclude honest and productive dialog?
 
And it is just as enlightening shag - that you don't contest the notion that conservatives are the only true Americans and somehow are the only group seemingly deemed by God to be the chosen people to hold and preserve the 'real, true American values'. That liberals are evil, no good, American hating socialist pigs that will tear down the American stars and stripes and replace it with a hammer and sickle or maybe even a swastika.
Setting aside your absurd hyperbole - You lefties are the ones who assert this every time you indicate a desire to change America from how it was to how you want it to be - different and more progressive like Europe in all the socialist ways possible. Project much? Why should we contest a notion that you socialists agree with (at least when you're being honest about yourselves)? :rolleyes:

Tell me, foxie, did America become great and wealthy because she was more socialistic, or because she was more capitalistic?
 
Tell me, foxie, did America become great and wealthy because she was more socialistic, or because she was more capitalistic?

We became great because we are a mixed economy. We reward innovation and risk, while providing a protection system for the poor and elderly. We allow for great wealth to be accumulated, but we also educate the poorest so they too can have an opportunity to share in the American dream.

So - about liberals being condescending - I believe these two books alone would also indicate that the other side plays the game - I just believe it is conservatives who whine the loudest...

Liberalism Is a Mental Disorder Michael Savage
If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans Ann Coulter
 
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So - about liberals being condescending - I believe these two books alone would also indicate that the other side plays the game - I just believe it is conservatives who whine the loudest...

Liberalism Is a Mental Disorder Michael Savage
If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans Ann Coulter

If you listen to Mr. Alexander's speech, he mentions both those books by name. In fact, Mr. Alexander makes the exact point you are making; that condescension is not at all unique to the left. Rush Limbaugh often claim's he is "always right" for instance.

What Mr. Alexander is talking about is something well beyond that. You are going to have the polemic's on both sides saying very condescending and arrogant things like that; Limbaugh, Olberman, Hannity, Matthews, Coulter etc. That is par for the course in those type of self-promoting jobs; it sells.

You are also going to have competing narratives that, especially around election time tend to work against honest and productive dialog. However, even then, it is often not so much a question of goals as a question of the means to achieve those goals; something that the traditional competing narratives largely leave up for question.

What Mr. Alexander is talking about is something different that seems to be rather unique to the left. It is a condescension (embodied in the 4 narratives he talks about) that stems, not from the polemic's so much but from academia and heavily echoed in the mainstream media, and entertainment venues (John Stewart, Bill Mahr, etc.). These narratives treat any and all conservative thought, a priori, as illegitimate. In this case, "conservative" is being referred to as simply "non-liberal thought".

I have personally known leftist academics in social science fields (where they should know better) who have very little understanding of actual conservative thought. At best, they tend to know a lot of the most extreme examples of conservative thought (the polemics), some variation of the narratives Alexander talks about and the anecdotal/circumstantial evidence often cited to support those narratives. In fact, the mythological Southern Strategy, for instance, was something I heard from political science professor who was a self-professed "expert" or right-wing extremism.

While that last example is purely anecdotal, the point is that to many leftists in academia, "intellectual conservative" an oxymoron. Conservatives are all viewed as simplistic, moronic emotional, reactionary and hateful. Hence the modern narrative of the racist tea partiers, the racist Arizona bill, being dupes of Fox News, Beck, etc. That level of condescension from academic sources is, if not completely absent on the right, very close to it.

So, back to my initial question:

Do you think the four interlinking narratives that Mr. Alexander speaks of preclude honest and productive dialog?

Could you also answer my other question concerning the capacity for human knowledge?

Do you think that, in general, humans are capable of the level of knowledge necessary to control infinitely complex social interactions through rational principles?
 
We became great because we are a mixed economy.
So, you won't answer the question and you spout falsehoods.

Is it capitalism or socialism that made this country great?

It can't be both since they are diametrically opposed philosophies.

How does putting obstacles in the way of productivity increase wealth?

It's more accurate to say that we became great in spite of socialist programs.
We reward innovation and risk, while providing a protection system for the poor and elderly. We allow for great wealth to be accumulated, but we also educate the poorest so they too can have an opportunity to share in the American dream.

You're referring to welfare and social security? So, it is your position that America was not great and wealthy before the Great Society and the New Deal?

And I'm curious - if America became great because we are supposedly a mixed economy - why do you want to change that?

So - about liberals being condescending - I believe these two books alone would also indicate that the other side plays the game - I just believe it is conservatives who whine the loudest...

Liberalism Is a Mental Disorder Michael Savage
If Democrats Had Any Brains, They'd Be Republicans Ann Coulter
So, your best response is that yes, you're condescending, but tu quoque? That's a logical flaw and an attempt to dodge the premise of the OP.
 
If you listen to Mr. Alexander's speech, he mentions both those books by name. In fact, Mr. Alexander makes the exact point you are making; that condescension is not at all unique to the left. Rush Limbaugh often claim's he is "always right" for instance.

How convenient that he later got to 'explain' things better in a speech 5 weeks after the original article came out - because he was attacked on the very points I bring up. Suddenly - oh, yes, both sides do it - well, pundits only on the right do it - it isn't like main stream media does it.

What Mr. Alexander is talking about is something well beyond that. You are going to have the polemic's on both sides saying very condescending and arrogant things like that; Limbaugh, Olberman, Hannity, Matthews, Coulter etc. That is par for the course in those type of self-promoting jobs; it sells.

You are also going to have competing narratives that, especially around election time tend to work against honest and productive dialog. However, even then, it is often not so much a question of goals as a question of the means to achieve those goals; something that the traditional competing narratives largely leave up for question.

What Mr. Alexander is talking about is something different that seems to be rather unique to the left. It is a condescension (embodied in the 4 narratives he talks about) that stems, not from the polemic's so much but from academia and heavily echoed in the mainstream media, and entertainment venues (John Stewart, Bill Mahr, etc.). These narratives treat any and all conservative thought, a priori, as illegitimate. In this case, "conservative" is being referred to as simply "non-liberal thought".

Well, Fox News is main stream media - and they condescend as well - all you need to do is watch their coverage of the two recent supreme court nominations. Between the racist and sexual preference questions it was a field day for them. So now we have 2.

Entertainment - well, how about Dennis Miller or Glenn Beck (who always says he is an entertainer) to find out that narrative is covered as well by the right. Up to 3.

I have personally known leftist academics in social science fields (where they should know better) who have very little understanding of actual conservative thought. At best, they tend to know a lot of the most extreme examples of conservative thought (the polemics), some variation of the narratives Alexander talks about and the anecdotal/circumstantial evidence often cited to support those narratives. In fact, the mythological Southern Strategy, for instance, was something I heard from political science professor who was a self-professed "expert" or right-wing extremism.

I know a law professor who knows very little about actual 'liberal' thought - and believes that it is entirely the fault of liberals that the United States is becoming a communist country, and will be removing free elections by 2016. Does that qualify shag - it does for you... and for Alexander. Anecdotal evidence is obviously permissible. My cousin, who went to Abilene Christian University, won't even listen to any argument that might start off with... We really shouldn't let the Bible be read in public school and taught as 'factual'. That counts too - doesn't it. How about protests on campuses where the right brings guns and quotes from the bible and the left wears pink...

While that last example is purely anecdotal, the point is that to many leftists in academia, "intellectual conservative" an oxymoron. Conservatives are all viewed as simplistic, moronic emotional, reactionary and hateful. Hence the modern narrative of the racist tea partiers, the racist Arizona bill, being dupes of Fox News, Beck, etc. That level of condescension from academic sources is, if not completely absent on the right, very close to it.

So, the point to many 'rightests' in America is that "moral liberal" is an oxymoron. Liberals are all viewed as heathens, anti-American, socialists and hateful. Hence the modern narrative of the socialist Democrats, the communist health care bill, being dupes of main stream media, etc. The level of condescension from all conservative sources, media, academia, entertainment and mostly, their pundits, is overwhelming, considering that the extreme right is a very small percentage of the population as a whole.

Do you think the four interlinking narratives that Mr. Alexander speaks of preclude honest and productive dialog?

Did that... - refer above-

Could you also answer my other question concerning the capacity for human knowledge?

Do you think that, in general, humans are capable of the level of knowledge necessary to control infinitely complex social interactions through rational principles?

Nope - how about you shag?
 
So, you won't answer the question and you spout falsehoods.

Is it capitalism or socialism that made this country great?

It can't be both since they are diametrically opposed philosophies.

How does putting obstacles in the way of productivity increase wealth?

It's more accurate to say that we became great in spite of socialist programs.

I answered the question foss - it is because we are a mixed economy - that is fine if you don't believe that - but, our public education system (very socialist) allowed many to fulfill the American dream. Bill Gates is a product of public schools. Ronald Reagan and Andrew Jackson were as well (along with many presidents, including Lincoln). There are things that capitalism does very, very well. There are things that socialist programs do very, very well. The reason we are great is because we are a combination of both.

As always with those on the right it is a black/white question - which is where you often fail. Gray is the answer in this case.

Socialism isn't a great system if you want to have innovation and growth, along with raising the overall standard of living.

Capitalism isn't great if you want to be able to afford opportunity equally, as well as create systems that will help those who fall through the cracks because of disabilities, age, etc. It also doesn't succeed with providing safe infrastructure, and basic protections.

You need a combination of both to create a true land of opportunity for all. America is indeed great, not just because of the wealth that it has created, but because of the way the poorest and weakest in the country are treated, with respect and kindness, that they are allowed opportunity and hope.

And I'm curious - if America became great because we are supposedly a mixed economy - why do you want to change that?

I don't - I am not a socialist, nor am I a communist.
 
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I answered the question foss - it is because we are a mixed economy - that is fine if you don't believe that - but, our public education system (very socialist) allowed many to fulfill the American dream. Bill Gates is a product of public schools. Ronald Reagan and Andrew Jackson were as well (along with many presidents, including Lincoln). There are things that capitalism does very, very well. There are things that socialist programs do very, very well. The reason we are great is because we are a combination of both.
You're right - socialist programs are very, very good at restricting growth and punishing productivity.

Which socialist program creates wealth?

As always with those on the right it is a black/white question - which is where you often fail. Gray is the answer in this case.
Argument to moderation (Latin: argumentum ad temperantiam, also known as middle ground, false compromise, gray fallacy and the golden mean fallacy) is a logical fallacy which asserts that any given compromise between two positions must be correct.

An individual demonstrating the false compromise fallacy implies that the positions being considered represent extremes of a continuum of opinions, and that such extremes are always wrong, and the middle ground is always correct[1]. This is not always the case. Sometimes only X or Y is acceptable, with no middle ground possible. Additionally, the middle ground fallacy allows any position to be invalidated, even those that have been reached by previous applications of the same method; all one must do is present yet another, radically opposed position, and the middle-ground compromise will be forced closer to that position. In politics, this is part of the basis behind Overton Window Theory.

Socialism isn't a great system if you want to have innovation and growth, along with raising the overall standard of living.
Then how can you say that America is a wealthy country due to socialism?

Capitalism isn't great if you want to be able to afford opportunity equally, as well as create systems that will help those who fall through the cracks because of disabilities, age, etc. It also doesn't succeed with providing safe infrastructure, and basic protections.
This is absolutely wrong. Capitalism allows equal opportunity for everybody; socialism seeks equality of results and ends up with shared misery.
You need a combination of both to create a true land of opportunity for all. America is indeed great, not just because of the wealth that it has created, but because of the way the poorest and weakest in the country are treated, with respect and kindness, that they are allowed opportunity and hope.
Then why are you seeking to change it? (See the quote below)
Originally Posted by foxpaws
And it is just as enlightening shag - that you don't contest the notion that conservatives are the only true Americans and somehow are the only group seemingly deemed by God to be the chosen people to hold and preserve the 'real, true American values'.

I don't - I am not a socialist, nor am I a communist.
Foxie, you are the one who bashes conservatives for wanting to preserve the old ways - and you constantly tout a socialist, progressive agenda. You admitted you are a liberal - that's equivalent to a socialist - you advocate more government control, less liberty. You voted for a man (and asserted that you would still vote for him) that you admitted was a socialist, because you want his socialist agenda to succeed. Now you're just lying. :rolleyes:
 
You're right - socialist programs are very, very good at restricting growth and punishing productivity.

Which socialist program creates wealth?

Education

Argument to moderation (Latin: argumentum ad temperantiam, also known as middle ground, false compromise, gray fallacy and the golden mean fallacy) is a logical fallacy which asserts that any given compromise between two positions must be correct.

An individual demonstrating the false compromise fallacy implies that the positions being considered represent extremes of a continuum of opinions, and that such extremes are always wrong, and the middle ground is always correct[1]. This is not always the case. Sometimes only X or Y is acceptable, with no middle ground possible. Additionally, the middle ground fallacy allows any position to be invalidated, even those that have been reached by previous applications of the same method; all one must do is present yet another, radically opposed position, and the middle-ground compromise will be forced closer to that position. In politics, this is part of the basis behind Overton Window Theory.

Ah, you have been learning at the alter of shag...

Nor did I state it was 'always' the case - I said 'often'. Extremes are not always wrong - nor is the middle ground always right. However it is rather rare that an extreme value is 'always' right, especially when the subject at hand deals with a large group. Your argument assumes 'all', when I stated that it is just 'often'. Even your argument concedes that it is only 'sometimes' that x or y is completely correct, with no allowance for a middle ground. I believe that our economic system is just that - just 'y' - unfettered capitalism isn't going to work, just as 'x' - total government ownership and control of the economy is totally foolish. Here is a case where there needs to be some sort of middle ground because of the demands placed by a huge society.

Then how can you say that America is a wealthy country due to socialism?

Because unlike you foss I don't base wealth just on the amount of money in my bank account.

This is absolutely wrong. Capitalism allows equal opportunity for everybody; socialism seeks equality of results and ends up with shared misery. Then why are you seeking to change it? (See the quote below)
I don't agree with equality of results - only with equality of opportunity, which capitalism has shown over and over again it does not allow for. Absolute capitalism evolves into the rule of the 'haves'. It needs to be tendered with the aspect of true 'opportunity for all', which includes the 'have nots', a group that capitalism runs roughshod over.

Foxie, you are the one who bashes conservatives for wanting to preserve the old ways - and you constantly tout a socialist, progressive agenda. You admitted you are a liberal - that's equivalent to a socialist - you advocate more government control, less liberty. You voted for a man (and asserted that you would still vote for him) that you admitted was a socialist, because you want his socialist agenda to succeed. Now you're just lying. :rolleyes:

Notice where once again the condescending right is attempting to equate liberal to socialist. I advocate sensible government control - rather than no government control within capitalism. I don't advocate the ideal of the most liberty for those with the most as you do Foss. Not Where have I ever labeled Obama a socialist? If you could find that quote - I would like to review it Foss. In fact I think I showed where most socialists find him to be an awful advocate for socialism, that he is showing his capitalistic tendencies all the time.
 
Did that... - refer above-

You responded to my post, but you did not answer my question. If I am mistaken, please point out specifically where and what you said that was an answer to my question.

Do you think the four interlinking narratives that Mr. Alexander speaks of preclude honest and productive dialog?

Also, if, as you have stated, you agree with me that humans are generally not capable of the level of knowledge necessary to control infinitely complex social interactions through rational principles, what problems (if any) do you see arising when humans do seek to control infinitely complex social interactions through rational principles?
 
You responded to my post, but you did not answer my question. If I am mistaken, please point out specifically where and what you said that was an answer to my question.

Do you think the four interlinking narratives that Mr. Alexander speaks of preclude honest and productive dialog?

Yes I do - and I believe that it happens on both sides of the fence - I was trying to point that out to you as an answer. I believe my retort that mirrored yours...
While that last example is purely anecdotal, the point is that to many leftists in academia, "intellectual conservative" an oxymoron. Conservatives are all viewed as simplistic, moronic emotional, reactionary and hateful. Hence the modern narrative of the racist tea partiers, the racist Arizona bill, being dupes of Fox News, Beck, etc. That level of condescension from academic sources is, if not completely absent on the right, very close to it.
___________________

So, the point to many 'rightests' in America is that "moral liberal" is an oxymoron. Liberals are all viewed as heathens, anti-American, socialists and hateful. Hence the modern narrative of the socialist Democrats, the communist health care bill, being dupes of main stream media, etc. The level of condescension from all conservative sources, media, academia, entertainment and mostly, their pundits, is overwhelming, considering that the extreme right is a very small percentage of the population as a whole.​

...also pointed to that fact - that no productive discourse is available on the extreme ends, liberals and conservatives are both painted by 'the other side' with their own brand of 'evil'.

Also, if you agree with me that humans are generally not capable of the level of knowledge necessary to control infinitely complex social interactions through rational principles, what problems (if any) do you see arising when humans do seek to infinitely complex social interactions through rational principles?

Wow - while I agree with you as a 'generality' shag - I also believe that in some cases humans 'must' take what knowledge they have, tempered with historical experience, and use that to create a more just society. I guess at some point it is a time factor. How much longer was the north willing to let the south continue slavery? Perhaps at some point further down the time line slavery would have lost out to a more sensible free market system in the south, but, at what 'dynamic' cost to the society at large as well as the measurable immediate cost to the slaves. What would have been lost if slavery had continued for another 50 years?

I believe that example shows that a very complex social problem had to be addressed with the rational principles available at the time.

Am I understanding your question correctly shag - that is why I used the slavery example - to see if we are 'talking' about the same thing.

If we aren't - could you please use an example?
 
Yes I do - and I believe that it happens on both sides of the fence

No doubt it happens on both sides of the fence. But what Mr. Alexander is talking about is something beyond the narratives drawn by the talking heads and polemics on TV and radio. What Alexander is talking about is something stemming from academia and the fact that it has long been dominated by the left.

Alexander cited plenty of examples to demonstrate that and various studies have consistently shown a very strong bias not only of liberalism but, in many ways against non-liberal perspectives.

These type of narratives coming from academia to discount opposing political schools of thought are almost impossible to come from the right because right leaning academics work in fields typically dominated by leftists and have to play on their terms and by their rules. Right leaning academics cannot generally avoid liberal thought the way left of center academics can and do.

So, to make sure, Do you think the four interlinking narratives that Mr. Alexander speaks of preclude honest and productive dialog?

while I agree with you as a 'generality' shag - I also believe that in some cases humans 'must' take what knowledge they have, tempered with historical experience, and use that to create a more just society.

Please define "justice" in the context you are using it.

The slavery thing is not what I am talking about. There was no attempt to "control" or (more accurately) "direct" infinitely complex social interactions and/or social institutions. It was simply a successful attempt to outlaw America's original sin; the institution of slavery.

What I am talking about is more along the lines of a command and control economy, like in the USSR where, in order to direct the economy, they had to set the price of over 24 million(?) products and services. This required being able to understand and accurately predict the incalculable number of ways and the incalculable complexity of ways those prices interacted in the market to determine what was most efficient.

I assume you would generally agree that humans are not capable of the knowledge necessary to do something of that nature. So, when humans do attempt to control and direct those types of social interactions, what would you think are the possible and even likely negative consequences (if any)?
 
No doubt it happens on both sides of the fence. But what Mr. Alexander is talking about is something beyond the narratives drawn by the talking heads and polemics on TV and radio. What Alexander is talking about is something stemming from academia and the fact that it has long been dominated by the left.

Alexander cited plenty of examples to demonstrate that and various studies have consistently shown a very strong bias not only of liberalism but, in many ways against non-liberal perspectives.

These type of narratives coming from academia to discount opposing political schools of thought are almost impossible to come from the right because right leaning academics work in fields typically dominated by leftists and have to play on their terms and by their rules. Right leaning academics cannot generally avoid liberal thought the way left of center academics can and do.

I think shag, you are making a lot of assumptions here. I don't think that it is possible to avoid right wing thought - or 'conservative' thought, just as I think it is impossible to avoid the opposite. Is the left more prominent within academia - perhaps, but are those people isolated? Not at all, they are bombarded with the same right wing thought in their daily life, just as I am, just as you are.

I think perhaps that is a dated idea - and probably getting to be more antiquated as information is distributed faster, and in a larger variety of vehicles. It is harder to be 'isolated' as you somewhat state. I think that the idea that the left can avoid the right is becoming a false statement. It is too invasive. The image that the campus is a castle, with walls that keep out the opinions that the faculty might not agree with is an idea of the past.

So, to make sure, Do you think the four interlinking narratives that Mr. Alexander speaks of preclude honest and productive dialog?

On the extreme ends - yes Shag, I do.

What I am talking about is more along the lines of a command and control economy, like in the USSR where, in order to direct the economy, they had to set the price of over 24 million(?) products and services. This required being able to understand and accurately predict the incalculable number of ways and the incalculable complexity of ways those prices interacted in the market to determine what was most efficient.

I assume you would generally agree that humans are not capable of the knowledge necessary to do something of that nature. So, when humans do attempt to control and direct those types of social interactions, what would you think are the possible and even likely negative consequences (if any)?

I would think you only have to look at the USSR again - corruption at the top, oppression at the bottom, eventual 're-revolution'.
 
Education

We've had a public education system for decades and we're in debt and broke. How's that working for ya? FAIL.

Next.

Ah, you have been learning at the alter of shag...
There you go again, being condescending...:rolleyes: And it's 'altar,' spell Nazi, not 'alter.' :rolleyes:

Nor did I state it was 'always' the case - I said 'often'. Extremes are not always wrong - nor is the middle ground always right. However it is rather rare that an extreme value is 'always' right, especially when the subject at hand deals with a large group. Your argument assumes 'all', when I stated that it is just 'often'. Even your argument concedes that it is only 'sometimes' that x or y is completely correct, with no allowance for a middle ground. I believe that our economic system is just that - just 'y' - unfettered capitalism isn't going to work, just as 'x' - total government ownership and control of the economy is totally foolish. Here is a case where there needs to be some sort of middle ground because of the demands placed by a huge society.
My argument does not concede this. It states that always assuming thus is logically flawed. You are actually trying to change the definition of 'argument to moderation' to suit your premise.

You have no way of backing up your argument with any empirical data as unfettered capitalism has never been tried. You are using a logically flawed argument called 'proof by assertion.'

Because unlike you foss I don't base wealth just on the amount of money in my bank account.
No, you base it on how expensive your shoes are compared to two weeks of Shag's salary. Again, condescending. :rolleyes:

But you're right - you leftists don't just consider salary when it comes to taxes, do you - now you're going to tax health benefits. What's next, taxing the amount of dust on my shoes?

I don't agree with equality of results - only with equality of opportunity, which capitalism has shown over and over again it does not allow for. Absolute capitalism evolves into the rule of the 'haves'. It needs to be tendered with the aspect of true 'opportunity for all', which includes the 'have nots', a group that capitalism runs roughshod over.
This country isn't supposed to be a nanny for people who don't want to work - it's supposed to be a country where anyone can succeed without government interference.

You pretend to be for the little guy but you blink at massive amounts of regulation and hindrance to business which prevents the little guy from building his own wealth and shuts down business already in practice.

You claim to be a capitalist and intelligent but you continue to advocate the FAILED POLICIES of generational theft that transferred ELEVEN TRILLION DOLLARS from earners to non-earners over the last 60 years in the War on Poverty and yet accomplished nothing.

Notice where once again the condescending right is attempting to equate liberal to socialist. I advocate sensible government control - rather than no government control within capitalism. I don't advocate the ideal of the most liberty for those with the most as you do Foss. Not Where have I ever labeled Obama a socialist? If you could find that quote - I would like to review it Foss. In fact I think I showed where most socialists find him to be an awful advocate for socialism, that he is showing his capitalistic tendencies all the time.
It's not condescending to call you a socialist - it's honest. Why, just your usage of the word 'sensible' is condescending - you know that's not what you advocate, yet you insult our intelligence by pretending to be moderate. You cannot define 'sensible' without laughing yourself silly at the stranglehold the government has over our economy. Was it sensible regulation that caused the housing collapse - Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Bill Clinton forced the banks to lend money they couldn't recoup?

You cannot, with a straight face, say that we have 'sensible' government control in this country. There are TWENTY THOUSAND GUN LAWS ALONE - and that's just infringing on the 2nd Amendment - how many tens of thousands of laws restrict business and commerce in this country? Furthermore, you advocate EVEN MORE regulation and control. Tell me, foxie, where does it end? If you truly want a mixed economy, then why do you support the leftist democrats in Congress and the White House who want a completely socialist economy? Why do you continue to support change if we already have an ideally mixed economy? Or is it just not socialist enough for you?

I don't think Obama was ever a Marxist - as shag would tell you, that is extremely radical, and very few people embrace the whole. Did he have socialist ideals - probably (I wasn't there - but, i would wager he did). So to move from perhaps socialist 'lite' to liberal democrat isn't a huge move on the political spectrum... it certainly isn't anywhere near the movement that Reagan undertook - from borderline socialist to conservative god... heck that is from one end to the other - Obama just moved within one end... why do you find that so hard to comprehend. You accept Reagan could have taken a complete about face, but Obama couldn't move toward the center from the left?
So, in this quote, you admit that Obama has socialist leanings at the very least, and you also admit that to move from socialist to liberal democrat isn't a huge move on the political spectrum, correct?. In other words, you and Captain Kickass are de facto socialists. If it looks like a duck, quacks, and waddles, it's a duck.
 
We've had a public education system for decades and we're in debt and broke. How's that working for ya? FAIL.

It gave us men like Jonas Salk - whose contribution to capitalism is incalculable... to this day.

Next.

My argument does not concede this. It states that always assuming thus is logically flawed. You are actually trying to change the definition of 'argument to moderation' to suit your premise.

You have no way of backing up your argument with any empirical data as unfettered capitalism has never been tried. You are using a logically flawed argument called 'proof by assertion.'

You stated I was going down the 'always' road foss - I was not - I clearly stated often. You might want to read your own 'pulled' definitions.

And you have no way to back any argument with empirical data as Marxist communism has never been tried.

You can come close on both sides of the scale - and use those as benchmarks.

No, you base it on how expensive your shoes are compared to two weeks of Shag's salary. Again, condescending. :rolleyes:

Boy, does this bother you - methinks you protest too much - they probably cost more than your salary as well - is that why the blind jealously, the hanging onto this little statement like it were a favorite blanket that we can toss into the conversation when we need to demonize foxpaws...

This country isn't supposed to be a nanny for people who don't want to work - it's supposed to be a country where anyone can succeed without government interference.

and I agree - I worked very hard for welfare reform in the 90s and help get it passed. I do not want a nanny state - I want a government that protects and helps those who need it succeed. I don't those who don't want to work to be supported by the state - I do want those who do want to work to be given the opportunity to better themselves and become productive citizens. At times that does require the government stepping in for a short, set amount of time with various programs. A step up, not a hand out.

You claim to be a capitalist and intelligent but you continue to advocate the FAILED POLICIES of generational theft that transferred ELEVEN TRILLION DOLLARS from earners to non-earners over the last 60 years in the War on Poverty and yet accomplished nothing.

And I don't support the failed war on poverty - nor have I ever. I work hard in my community with public and private funding to help move women out of poverty and help them become contributors, not takers. Just as I worked hard to enact massive welfare reform. Just because you say I advocate something certainly doesn't make it so - in fact foss, my record on helping women rise from poverty is something I am quite proud of, and I can point to many accomplishments in this arena.

I do not blindly support all that is 'Democrat' or 'left' just as you don't blindly support all that is 'whatever you are foss' or 'right'. You have stated many times that you were against many of Bush's policies - however, I wouldn't place you with Pelosi who was also against those same policies. Broad brushes do not work in politics any longer.

It's not condescending to call you a socialist - it's honest. Why, just your usage of the word 'sensible' is condescending - you know that's not what you advocate, yet you insult our intelligence by pretending to be moderate. You cannot define 'sensible' without laughing yourself silly at the stranglehold the government has over our economy. Was it sensible regulation that caused the housing collapse - Barney Frank, Chris Dodd, and Bill Clinton forced the banks to lend money they couldn't recoup?

I would like to see where anyone 'forced' a bank to loan money - just as I would like to see where the government 'forced' BP to drill 40 miles offshore.

You cannot, with a straight face, say that we have 'sensible' government control in this country. There are TWENTY THOUSAND GUN LAWS ALONE - and that's just infringing on the 2nd Amendment - how many tens of thousands of laws restrict business and commerce in this country? Furthermore, you advocate EVEN MORE regulation and control. Tell me, foxie, where does it end? If you truly want a mixed economy, then why do you support the leftist democrats in Congress and the White House who want a completely socialist economy? Why do you continue to support change if we already have an ideally mixed economy? Or is it just not socialist enough for you?

I think a mixed economy is our best option. Time changes things, along with sheer population numbers. Pollution isn't a problem in a huge country with a small population, it becomes a problem as that population grows. Laws and regulations change as circumstances change. If you keep your money in the safe, or cookie jar at home, as many people did for a long time - you don't worry about banking practices. As more and more money moves into banks, and then some banks show themselves to not be trustworthy when it comes to dealing with that money, you need regulation. That is why the change foss - rules and regulations set up during the 1800s are often not applicable to the changes time and technology has given us over the last 200 years.

So, in this quote, you admit that Obama has socialist leanings at the very least, and you also admit that to move from socialist to liberal democrat isn't a huge move on the political spectrum, correct?. In other words, you and Captain Kickass are de facto socialists. If it looks like a duck, quacks, and waddles, it's a duck.

You are against gay marriage - correct - so if I follow the same logic it isn't too far on the political spectrum to move into gay hater... just a step or two.

You aren't a duck foss - if it looks, brays and is stubborn like an a$$ it must be...
 
Boy, does this bother you - methinks you protest too much - they probably cost more than your salary as well - is that why the blind jealously, the hanging onto this little statement like it were a favorite blanket that we can toss into the conversation when we need to demonize foxpaws...
I bring it up because it speaks to your condescension. You continually prove the OP's point, and you're too stupid to realize it.

You're the self admitted snob, fox. Wear it with pride. I understand your bitterness toward me because I didn't respond to your advances. It's all you have left - you have no family, no husband...I sure hope for your sake that your income stays high, because otherwise one day we may be reading your suicide obituary since you seem to place such a high value on it. Of course, you won't have anybody at your funeral...:rolleyes:

You are against gay marriage - correct - so if I follow the same logic it isn't too far on the political spectrum to move into gay hater... just a step or two.

You aren't a duck foss - if it looks, brays and is stubborn like an a$$ it must be...
Aw, you're cute with the condescending insults. I must have struck a nerve...I have the same stance on gay marriage as President Toonces. Is he a gay hater too?
 

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