Why is FLM killing the LS?

funkcity

funkcity

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Ford and Lincoln are REALLY dropping the ball here!! Cadillac and now even Chrysler are kicking their asses!!

Last year a fine group of engineers from Ford built a one-off LS for the One Lap of America cross-country competition.

It outhandled all but 3 Porsches in a wet skid pad test and did quite well throughout the competition.

They used an off-the-shelf Supercharged 430 hp Roush 4.6.

It is THIS car that they should build!
car_200wide.jpg

They have a better platform than DCX or GM but they choose not to develop it.
engine_200wide.jpg


Lincoln is killing the LS and they have nothing to replace it with... and many LS owners are seriously pissed and disillusioned with FLM because of this.

They throw big cash at Jaguar (S-Type R)which has a fraction of sales that Ford and Lincoln have and choose not to develop the Lincoln platform.

What the hell happened to FLM ???
Lincoln = SUVs, Trucks, and rebadged Mazdas ? :confused: ... Just beautiful !!!

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=17650
 
Yeah, it's sad, the only good car is the new Mustang. :Bang



funkcity said:
Ford and Lincoln are REALLY dropping the ball here!! Cadillac and now even Chrysler are kicking their asses!!

Last year a fine group of engineers from Ford built a one-off LS for the One Lap of America cross-country competition.

It outhandled all but 3 Porsches in a wet skid pad test and did quite well throughout the competition.

They used an off-the-shelf Supercharged 430 hp Roush 4.6.

It is THIS car that they should build!
car_200wide.jpg

They have a better platform than DCX or GM but they choose not to develop it.
engine_200wide.jpg


Lincoln is killing the LS and they have nothing to replace it with... and many LS owners are seriously pissed and disillusioned with FLM because of this.

They throw big cash at Jaguar (S-Type R)which has a fraction of sales that Ford and Lincoln have and choose not to develop the Lincoln platform.

What the hell happened to FLM ???
Lincoln = SUVs, Trucks, and rebadged Mazdas ? :confused: ... Just beautiful !!!

http://media.ford.com/newsroom/feature_display.cfm?release=17650
Click to expand...
 
What really bites my ass is the new Road&Track with no other then the new Cadillac Killers V's. UGH as FLM fans we need to bomb ford headquaters and have them develop something along the line of the CTS-V or STS-V powerplants. Steal the supercharged V-8 from Jaguar, and drop it in the LS and off we go. Thats my 2 cents worth of ideas!

-Scott-
 
Well hopefully soon we will be able to do a whole lot to our LS's as the computer cracks are coming out. I'm sure soon enough we will be able to do complete engine replacements and superchargers and blah blah blah right along with the rest of them. Granted this does nothing for the from factory car, but it will make a lot of us, me included, very happy.
 
Jay,

What makes you think FLM is killing the LS? I haven't heard any concrete evidence that they are. Once they make the anouncement then it's something to be excited (or pissed) about. I'll be looking for a new vehicle in about a year and half. If Lincoln doesn't have an LS or something similar I'll be looking at the BMW.

They have a great car but they are too blind to see it.
 
From what I've been reading they are also dropping the ball on V6 development, the competition is getting 250+ hp out of their 3.5 V6s and ford is pretty much sticking with the 3.0 platforms under 230 hp, even with VVT the numbers are still pretty low. The numbers on the 05 mustang V6 look a lot like like the Explorer SOHC V6 numbers...
 
GrayGhost1 said:
Jay,

What makes you think FLM is killing the LS? I haven't heard any concrete evidence that they are. Once they make the anouncement then it's something to be excited (or pissed) about. I'll be looking for a new vehicle in about a year and half. If Lincoln doesn't have an LS or something similar I'll be looking at the BMW.

They have a great car but they are too blind to see it.
Click to expand...

They can't announce it or it will tank the sales even MORE up until the time they pull the plug!
This is the same as the old Camaro/Firebird discontinuation.
Sales will bleed and then they will say they don't have enough sales to keep building it. This is a MAJOR travesty !!!!!

In any Lincoln advertizment you may only see the fender or wheel of the LS.... but you'll see SUVs... LOTS of them!
 
funkcity said:
They can't announce it or it will tank the sales even MORE up until the time they pull the plug!
This is the same as the old Camaro/Firebird discontinuation.
Sales will bleed and then they will say they don't have enough sales to keep building it. This is a MAJOR travesty !!!!!

In any Lincoln advertizment you may only see the fender or wheel of the LS.... but you'll see SUVs... LOTS of them!
Click to expand...

:I

Everything on the radio (I don't really watch TV) here is about the SUVs and the deals they are making on them, the LS does get mentioned but no deals. The dealer I take my car to for stuff probably has 40 or so LSs between his new and used inventory and a couple of SUVs... I don't get it.
 
As much as I hate to say it, FLM is probably justified in their actions, if in fact this is the case. They will sell what the market wants, and only what's profitable to them, they don't make cars out of the goodness of their hearts.

If they screw the LS up, like they did with the Mark 8 from the 7, their market will dry up and they will be forced to make a better platform. Here's the real question, and I don't know what the answer is, or if anybody can find it. How many of what car have they sold in the last year. They will give you a pretty good idea on what they're going to keep around. The next thing you should look at is the profit margin. If they sell a million "x" cars at $1 profit and only sell 100,000 "y" cars at $100 profit, which do you think they will keep around?

They are killing off the Excursion, not because green piece (of s h i t) and the other bunny huggers didn't like them, but because sales have been steadily going down with the rise in fuel costs. That is one hell of a truck, I wish our Fire Department would have purchased one of them instead of that POS 2004 Suburban we have now. But again, not enough people are willing to pay for it.

Kleetus

'00 LS V8 Sport
 
Didn't really look very hard but found this info...


Units Sold in USA, ranked by December 2004 Sales Volume

Make Model December 2004 November 2004 YTD 2004 YTD 2003

Lincoln LS_________1,833___________2,657_______27,066_______33,581

Lincoln Town Car___4,071___________4,324_______51,908_______56,566

Lincoln Continental__ -___________ - _______ - __________280

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svsedan.asp

They will sell what the market wants, and only what's profitable to them, they don't make cars out of the goodness of their hearts.
Click to expand...

This is very true, but if they don't advertise and attempt to make their target audience aware of this product how can they expect to sell anything?

I read an article on the net (can't locate it at the moment) written back in 99 when the folks who write things did a day at the track with the folks from LM who supposedly make decisions… one of the questions that came up (loosely quoting) was “How is this car going to appeal to your current customers?” The answer was along the lines “It won’t, we are trying to appeal to the group of younger drivers who think the world of Luxury Sport starts and stops with the likes of BMW, Mercedes, Audi etc.” Oddly enough that happens to be the group I fit into and thus far LM hasn’t done anything through media that I’ve noticed to attract my business. I heard about the LS from riding around with a Taurus driving mechanical engineer who was telling me about the underlying platform of the LS which in turn led me to take a closer look at them and eventually buy one.

Around the LA area these days most of the LS drivers are either Town Car people looking for a “smaller vehicle” (as stated by a dear old lady picking up her LS at the dealer) or the executives who couldn’t get enough money in budget to afford a BMW. (My neighbor)
 
funkcity said:
They can't announce it or it will tank the sales even MORE up until the time they pull the plug!
This is the same as the old Camaro/Firebird discontinuation.
Sales will bleed and then they will say they don't have enough sales to keep building it. This is a MAJOR travesty !!!!!
Click to expand...

Actually, when GM announced the death of the f-bodies in ~'00, sales actually climbed the last two years of production. But yes, there are similarities in that lack of advertisment / marketing can kill a car's sales. I'll refrain from expounding on the covert, secretly planned, publicly scape-goated execution of the f-body by the GM bean counters. :Bang
 
They are killing the car because anything they do to make it better steals sales from Jaguar and they make alot more money off Jags than Lincolns. The LM dealers also don't klnow how to sell these cars, they are use to dealing with older folks buying Town cars.

Pretty much the same story as my last vehicle the Merkur XR4Ti. Why wasn't the engine intercooled like the T-bird? Because if it were faster it would steal sales from Mustang. And the same dealers who could not relate to Merkur owners now can't relate to LS owners.

I've never owned GM and was dissappointed in the interior quality of the CTS I tested when they first came out but its looking like thats where I will need to go when the LS wears out (in 2010).
 
I actually saw an LS commercial a few hours ago. The only one I think I have ever seen. The engine sounded good. It caught my attention.
 
pragmatic said:
They are killing the car because anything they do to make it better steals sales from Jaguar and they make a lot more money off Jags than Lincolns. The LM dealers also don't know how to sell these cars, they are use to dealing with older folks buying Town cars.
Click to expand...

But Cadillac had/has the SAME problems with their dealers as Lincoln, but they don't let it deter them.

When I went to test a CTS-V the lady in the showroom reminded me that " you do know this is a manual transmission don't you???" Wow I was floored but despite her, they sold the car anyway! The CTS-V is a breakout car, a car that changed the rules for an American sedan. The Chrysler 300 Hemi is ALSO a breakout car with huge road presence.

Lincoln should in fact compete with Volvo and Jaguar.
It would make all the brands better....and create an air of competence regarding FMC.

Lincoln would not steal any sales from Jaguar. They have their OWN set of problems and Lincoln is not one of them! Slam a 4.6SC or a hi-po 351 into an LS and generate your own road presence. Maybe there is a plan for 06 or 07. But everything else in their plans have been spoken of. There have been no secrets in the last few years.

Caddy has:
CTS-V
STS-V

Chrysler has:
300 Hemi
300 HEMI SRT

Lincoln has to....

Update the looks...Square off the car a bit ala the Conti show car.
Suicide doors on ALL Lincolns. Brand and styling identity please!
Slightly larger wheel wells... 20s fit easily in the 300. And people luv em!
Recaros
Big Steering wheel
Big power
Great handling

Its VERY easy for FLM to do this...The hard stuff is done.
If they want to relinquish market share to Caddy, Chrysler, Acura, Lexus etc...
They are headed that way already.

Who is their target competition?
Buick? Volkswagen ? Nissan? Who knows? Do you guys know?

Enough...
 
I think they should have had a limited run a higher performance LS. Make it lighter, 18's stock, and put in something like a 4.6 liter supercharged or turbocharged mated to a 5 speed manual. Add on the LSE kit and a 1" drop. I think it would have sold rather well, and beaten the crap out of the luxury sedan market and the like.

It would appeal to the younger professional age group, as well as most people on this site.
 
SurfjaxLS said:
I think they should have had a limited run a higher performance LS. Make it lighter, 18's stock, and put in something like a 4.6 liter supercharged or turbocharged mated to a 5 speed manual. Add on the LSE kit and a 1" drop. I think it would have sold rather well, and beaten the crap out of the luxury sedan market and the like.

It would appeal to the younger professional age group, as well as most people on this site.
Click to expand...

I'll cross my fingers that FLM will do a Hot Rod Lincoln as a last hurrah for a kick ass car. Sorta like what the tuners did with the 2002 Camaro SSs (i.e. GMMG and the ZL1). How cool would it be to be able to purchase an LS with one of 3 engine packages? And of course...with the LSE kit. Manual tranny would be nice but...auto would be acceptable.

1) 3.9L with all bolt ons (make it good for about 350hp)

2) 4.0L blown Jag motor (make it good for about 430hp)

3) 4.6L blown (make it good for about 550hp)

Power could change but...not by much. Maybe this would be something cool for a tuner to take on.
 
SurfjaxLS said:
It would appeal to the younger professional age group, as well as most people on this site.
Click to expand...

Like the Taurus SHO?? Oh yea, they killed that too, under similar circumstances.
 
SurfjaxLS said:
I think they should have had a limited run a higher performance LS. Make it lighter, 18's stock, and put in something like a 4.6 liter supercharged or turbocharged mated to a 5 speed manual. Add on the LSE kit and a 1" drop.
Click to expand...

Good Stuff SurfJax!

I often thought....how do you make the LS lighter?
It already has Aluminum hood, front fenders, trunklid. The Jag S only gets these this year!

LS has aluminum 3.9 engine, aluminum suspension and hollow half shafts in the rear.... seems like a fiberglass spare tire well also...

* Lighten the seats (I'd sure like some bun-huggin Recaros like the S-Type R)
* Remove the spare tire go with runflats....as the M5 and Corvettes do.
* Remove some of the insulation (I would really hate doing that.)
* Go to Titanium exhaust and catalytics.
* Aluminum bar in the doors in place of steel?
* 6 speed manual should be significantly lighter than auto.
* Smaller battery ?
* Lose the moon roof
* Lighter 18/19" wheels
* Hollow sway bar ?
* Carbon graphite louvered hood ?
* Lighter shocks ?


Any hi-po motor will be HEAVIER.
3.9SC, 4.0 SC, 4,6na or SC or
(my fave 351 Windsor-derived Roush 427!
Its actually smaller than the above motors)
So you have to factor that.

Bigger brakes also weigh more.

I don't think you can lighten the chassis ...Remember it had to be strengthened for the T-Bird Convertible so its probably just right.

Where else would you rob some lbs. from the LS?
 
funkcity, no offence man, but both Volvo (passenger division) and Jaguar are Ford now... No point in competing with yourself.
 
slagburn said:
The numbers on the 05 mustang V6 look a lot like like the Explorer SOHC V6 numbers...
Click to expand...
That's because the Mustang uses the same 4.0L SOHC V6 as the Exploder. The old pushrod 3.8L is gone. RIP.

You guys are really scaring me with what you want out of an LS. I don't think anything mentioned so far is even remotely likely, and I think that's probably a good thing. Not many people want a luxury sedan with Recaro racing seats. The engine's already poured in there, where are you going to put a super charger? Where are you going to put a 4.6? No cowl hoods, please. We need to think further in the future.

They do need to build a better LS that's more stylish, roomier, and packs a bigger engine. They need something closer to 200 inches, and they need to figure out a way to get the 5.4L in as an option to compete with Chrysler and Cadillac, along with a more powerful engine than the 3.9L. Of course, this won't happen - Ford simply won't have the car guys have the 5.4L. If the Marauder couldn't have it, nobody can (GT exception noted).

So, in an ideal world, we'd be looking ahead to a new, larger RWD with more room and a bigger engine. THe reality will be quite different.

The next Lincoln LS is due in 2008, and will be based upon the same platform as the 500/Freestyle. It will be FWD/AWD. I haven't heard anything about engines yet, but any V8 sounds unlikely based on the chassis. The original LS was a re-bodied Jaguar. The next LS will be a dressed up 10-year-old Volvo SUV/3-year-old Ford sedan. Unbelievable.

I can't find any detailed links at the moment, but just so you guys don't think I'm nuts:
http://motortrend.com/future/spied/112_2008fvf/index2.html
 
Places to loose weight... Hmmm what really surprises me is this car is only 300 pounds lighter than my grand marquis was, and it's a hecl of a lot smaller.

Loose the auto, a manual is definately lighter.
Moon roof like you said is also a killer.

I don't know how thick it is now, but perhaps a tubluar frame of thin gauge high grade steel would work too...

The front and rear facia could go carbon fiber instead of the plastic, and the trunk lid could also go carbon or aluminum (if it isn't already).

If you really want to go expensive, go carbon fiber drive shaft, and half shafts in the rear. $$$$ big money $$$$

Could also go aluminum in the door skins, they'd have to be way thicker, but you'd still trim about 15-20% of the weight.

Aside from loosing the creature comforts, power windows, locks, you could also do away with the dual zone temp and the rear heat ducts. It's not much but each pound adds up. You guys are right, there really isn't much room to chop weight out, with out compromising the chassis itself. I guess that means you just have to put more HP under the hood, that's all... :)

Kleetus

'00 LS V8 Sport
 
How much does an LS weigh? 3700? 3800? Considering how rigid the body is, alot of that must be structural. Heavy for its size but not that bad.

There is no such thing as a car that too big or too heavy - only cars that don't have enough power.
 
Dutch said:
The next Lincoln LS is due in 2008, and will be based upon the same platform as the 500/Freestyle. It will be FWD/AWD. I haven't heard anything about engines yet, but any V8 sounds unlikely based on the chassis. The original LS was a re-bodied Jaguar. The next LS will be a dressed up 10-year-old Volvo SUV/3-year-old Ford sedan. Unbelievable.

I can't find any detailed links at the moment, but just so you guys don't think I'm nuts:
http://motortrend.com/future/spied/112_2008fvf/index2.html
Click to expand...


IF that is the future of the LS, I for one, will be looking elsewhere. BTW, where do you get your information??
 
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