About to have a f'n heartattack!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ripped camel]

if the pn is the same what does that tell you?

the difference is in the cam timing, 3 degrees retard in the cobra to help with top end power..

but...keep in mind, two different platfroms
cobra lightweight stick shgit
mark 8 heavyweight automatic car

different animals all together

while your "tuner" will work, your gonna need a different tune

He was saying the part number for the 96-98 cams were all the same because laser was mentioning before that 96 cams were different. So it didn't mention anything about the mark cams which is where my question came from.

I get that the stick and auto are different animals. I also know from reading that guys making a significant amount of power (which I'm obviously not making) switched to a 4r70w from a stick (referring to the 03-04 cobra swap I posted about a week back).

So how do I get the long answer on how you would still degree the cams if they are complete? That's what we need on this site is more long answers, and less sporadic information.

Is there a benefit to switching to the 96-98 cobra heads? Are they completely different than the mark or the exact same thing? People swap heads all the time so how come it is deemed as better off to just get a whole entire new engine? I can't see spending $700+ for a whole engine + labor when I can buy for the same price all the stuff to swap over to a better platform and about the same labor.

I'm questioning these things because I keep getting short answers. As you already know me, as well as others that will read down the road aren't all experts. We look to people such as you that really do know for good information. It may seem like being argumentative when I or others question like this but it's merely us trying to get full answers to make an educated decision.

In short part of becoming educated is to pass on the information to others...at least that's what Plato says in 'the republic' in order to form a pure just society

 

[ripped camel]

its all just nuts and bolts...

righty tighty, lefty loosey.

it aint rocket science, but it also isnt for beginners

Good so if parts are the same price as just going back to a stock Mark VIII setup, I'm assuming that labor will be pretty similar since an engine rebuild is an engine rebuild right?

I'm not even going to fathom doing this myself. I'm going to pay someone to do it. Hell I might even pay for someone to have a free trip to florida to do it + extras.

 

[XLRVIII]

even if the heads are complete...you still have to set the cam timing from bank to bank, and thats where the issues begin.

i;ve had more than 1 friend that wouldnt listen..took off the heads and either the car never ran again or crashed the pistons into the valves upon start up.

trust me, you car will run sooner and cheaper if you replace the motor,THEN PROPERLY PLAN a headswap.

its gonna cost about the same either way labor wise.

 

[XLRVIII]

Good so if parts are the same price as just going back to a stock Mark VIII setup, I'm assuming that labor will be pretty similar since an engine rebuild is an engine rebuild right?
.

that is a question for the person doing the job

i would charge you three times the amount of an engine install
, to do a head swap.
because there is about three times the amount of work...and time involved.

then if the cam timing doesnt come out right, you have to pull it all back apart.

cheaper to replace, than to dissasemble...and reassemble

but i get the feeling you are NOT hearing what i'm saying...per usual.

 

[ripped camel]

A guy that is looking to sell me his C heads just said this to me in a pm...

"The B heads aren't worth much but the 96-98 cams in the C heads are the hot ticket."

Why is that?

 

[BAD97LSC]

derrik sorry man but there is no way i will change a head on your car, for one, i do not have the cam tools needed, i have no idea how to set the timing, nor do i want to learn, and you dont have the money it would take for me to even think about it. i will however sell you a driverside head or both heads off a 98 lsc that only have 73k miles. i'll sell both heads complete for $125, you find someone else to put them on, i can do nearly anything to a mark VIII but no way am i swapping heads with the engine in the car.

 

[CobraStar_LS8]

drop in a replacement engine and sell the old one for someone to rebuild

 

[ripped camel]

that is a question for the person doing the job

i would charge you three times the amount of an engine install
, to do a head swap.
because there is about three times the amount of work...and time involved.

then if the cam timing doesnt come out right, you have to pull it all back apart.

cheaper to replace, than to dissasemble...and reassemble

but i get the feeling you are NOT hearing what i'm saying...per usual.

It's not that I"m not hearing you. I'm just having a hard time grasping that nobody is able to properly do a head swap. As I said I'm not as knowledgeable about this as you, but I'm looking for answers. Put yourself in my predicament being at a disadvantage in terms of automotive know how, and you'll get why it isn't clear to me.

I remember when I had my 2v GT People that swapped to patriot stage 2 heads and stage 2 cams made good power, and loved their car. I don't know personally of anyone that did that on a 4v. I don't know if it's because one is harder than the other to make work. I just know that head swaps and cams are done over and over again.

 

[ripped camel]

derrik sorry man but there is no way i will change a head on your car, for one, i do not have the cam tools needed, i have no idea how to set the timing, nor do i want to learn, and you dont have the money it would take for me to even think about it. i will however sell you a driverside head or both heads off a 98 lsc that only have 73k miles. i'll sell both heads complete for $125, you find someone else to put them on, i can do nearly anything to a mark VIII but no way am i swapping heads with the engine in the car.

pm sent....

 

[XLRVIII]

derrik sorry man but there is no way i will change a head on your car, for one, i do not have the cam tools needed, i have no idea how to set the timing, nor do i want to learn.

ripped the answer is right there

probably no one on this board that is AS familiar with these cars...ans he's smart enough to say "NO".

that should speak volumes

 

[ripped camel]

ripped the answer is right there

probably no one on this board that is AS familiar with these cars...ans he's smart enough to say "NO".

that should speak volumes

Ok. I'm starting to see the light......starting too

So nobody on this board has had a successful head swap, or switched to aftermarket cams successfully? If not then I think I completely see the light...

 

[XLRVIII]

I remember when I had my 2v GT People that swapped to patriot stage 2 heads and stage 2 cams made good power, and loved their car. I don't know personally of anyone that did that on a 4v. I don't know if it's because one is harder than the other to make work. I just know that head swaps and cams are done over and over again..

this is the same type of arguement my friends with failed 2V and 4v head or cam swaps, tried to say.

in the end, they did what they wanted to do, regardless of the warnings I gave them and they promptly destroyed some very expensive parts.

one of these cars is STILL broken more than 4 years later

I'm not saying it's impossible, but....it's very complicated and time consuming..and it's not for the faint at heart.

I'm trying to get your car back up and running, in the cheapest and quickest manner.

hell... had you committed to it yesterday, you'd be running TODAY.

motor swap is roughly 8-10 hours.. wala..done..running car

headswap is gonna be the same amount of time.. and you wont know if the car is gonna run...until AFTER it's all put back together.

you wanna "sure thing" or you want to "GAMBLE"?

 

[XLRVIII]

Ok. I'm starting to see the light......starting too

So nobody on this board has had a successful head swap, or switched to aftermarket cams successfully? If not then I think I completely see the light...

I'm sure several have, but "you aren't them".

it doesnt matter what "someone else" on this board HAS or HASN'T done

it's about "YOU" not being able to do it..so your gonna have to pay someone to do it for you.

headswap is not gonna be cheap..and you have to ask yourself.

will they get the cam timing 100% correct, or will they just get it close enough for the car to drive away?
I've seen many just get them "close enough" then send the poorly running car away telling the owner a "tune" will fix it, when it WONT.

you are not in a position to recover from this if it doesnt go right.
do the smart thing.. get a replacement engine, THEN properly plan a headswap.

 

[ripped camel]

I'm sure several have, but "you aren't them".

it doesnt matter what "someone else" on this board HAS or HASN'T done

it's about "YOU" not being able to do it..so your gonna have to pay someone to do it for you.

headswap is not gonna be cheap..and you have to ask yourself.

will they get the cam timing 100% correct, or will they just get it close enough for the car to drive away?
I've seen many just get them "close enough" then send the poorly running car away telling the owner a "tune" will fix it, when it WONT.

you are not in a position to recover from this if it doesnt go right.
do the smart thing.. get a replacement engine, THEN properly plan a headswap.

I guess where I get confused is you say (as others have said) do the replacement engine, THEN properly plan a headswap. So what is confusing to me is if a properly planned headswap can be done later why wouldn't I do it now when the rest of my engine is good? I don't get how it's viable to properly plan it later than it is now.

Are you saying that later as in when I don't use this as a DD. I'm not getting how it's possible later but not now. Maybe I'm just looking at things to literally. I tend to do that....

 

[CobraStar_LS8]

I say Head Swap now and write a progress thread...let me know how it turns out

 

[BAD97LSC]

derrik, lets fine a decent mile used engine, and i will do the motor swap for you, then you can sit the old motor on a stand and slowly build it, kill two birds with one stone. i can pull your motor and have another one in and driving in a weekend.

 

[XLRVIII]

derrik, lets fine a decent mile used engine, and i will do the motor swap for you, then you can sit the old motor on a stand and slowly build it, kill two birds with one stone. i can pull your motor and have another one in and driving in a weekend.

once again the voice of reason speaks.

THIS is the best solution

 

[XLRVIII]

do the replacement engine, THEN properly plan a headswap. So what is confusing to me is if a properly planned headswap can be done later why wouldn't I do it now when the rest of my engine is good? I don't get how it's viable to properly plan it later than it is now.

Are you saying that later as in when I don't use this as a DD. I'm not getting how it's possible later but not now. Maybe I'm just looking at things to literally. I tend to do that....

#1 you have broken peices of aluminum that could be anywhere in your motor.
you might ha.ve all the big pieces but I can assure you, there is carnage waiting to happen

#2 properly planning is not "jumping dick deep" into a headswap when a poorly thought out valve cover gasket job goes bad.

#3properly planning does not mean hire the first swinging dick that "tells you" that he can do the job within your budget.
I remember how much labor you THOUGHT you would get for 200.00.

Since I KNOW you will "shop by price", I am leary of #3 causing you to have to do this twice.

one of my friends that wouldn't listen has over 5K invested in a PI H/C swap on a 2V because he tried to "shop by price" and two times the shadetree shop destroyed the pistons and 8 intake valves on one side of the motor

he then paid a second mechanic to fix it, and that guy only got the cam timing "CLOSE"..and the car was slower than when it was stock.

the 3rd mechanic who did the cam timing for a 4th time, got it right.

Like I said, do you want a sure fire fix... or do you want to GAMBLE?

I'd put my money on Jamies suggestion, even though I mentioned it first..I'll gladly give him credit..if it'll make you listen.
I know its against your ingrained instinct to listen to me (grins)

 

[XLRVIII]

derrik, lets fine a decent mile used engine, and i will do the motor swap for you, then you can sit the old motor on a stand and slowly build it

and he can take the time to learn and properly set up and verify the cam timing..and since it's HIS motor, he can spend the time to do it properly and not just get the timing "close enough" to get the car off the lift.

he can take the time to learn and plan to get the correct parts and not be rushed because his car is "down".

and think how easy the valve covers gaskets are gonna be with the engine on a stand

 

[BAD97LSC]

i'll gladly do a motor swap, that i can do blind folded but i'm not messing with the engine internally. i myself am going to build a motor also, in my spare time, i already have my next motor out of my rosemist car. i also have a set of 5.4 liter c-heads from a 99 navigator, i will have little problems and help building the long block, timing it is a different story i will have help on this, i will also have the heads done with a stage 2 port, my shop partner will do it when i am ready, he just did a set of 03 cobra heads and the car they are on makes mine look like a ford tempo, i will be supercharging this motor, so i have tons to learn, but i will, because i want it for myself, but i'm not ready to learn right now, so swapping a motor i will do, fixing the one in his car, no thanks lol!!

 

[LaserSVT]

I guess where I get confused is you say (as others have said) do the replacement engine, THEN properly plan a headswap. So what is confusing to me is if a properly planned headswap can be done later why wouldn't I do it now when the rest of my engine is good? I don't get how it's viable to properly plan it later than it is now.

Are you saying that later as in when I don't use this as a DD. I'm not getting how it's possible later but not now. Maybe I'm just looking at things to literally. I tend to do that....

Because its soooo much easier to do it out of the car for one. For two the people here that have done a C head swap (that worked) eaither had the knowledge and tools or paid someone who did.

On my 96 Cobra I paid $500 and it took the guy 14 hours over three days to adjust my cam timing and I only did that cause he said if I didnt pick up 10 hp I wouldnt have to pay. I picked up 17 hp with proper timing and that was with NO other adjustments made other then tweeking the factory Ford settings.


Engine swap is match plug to plug, hole to hole. Head swapping is the same with the added benifit of spending a couple hours on each cam to get them exactly right and then get the chain on without making a cam move.

Its a major PITA on these cars.

 

[XLRVIII]

it took the guy 14 hours over three days

there in lies the key,its a long tedious process that usually results in several attempts to get it exactly how its supposed to be, and not just "close enough"

3 days is not the amount of time most "for hire" guys are gonna wanna spend on your motor.

bill understands...and paid good money to get it done right.

500 in labor for "only cam timing" that is not a headswap.

that is right in the ball park for engine swap labor, or very close

 

[XLRVIII]

Its a major PITA on these cars.

there is no way i'd try timing the cams with the motor in the car.
its possible but..screw that.

drop it out the bottom and get that bitch in front of you so you can service it properly.

....ask jeff, he'll tell you.
if it isnt plugs, water pump or alternator...its easier to drop the motor out.

AND...you dont dent the damned thing leaning over the fenders either

 

[DLF]

I have the factory cam tools, and have done 4V head swaps.

You don't want to even think about it, nor do you want to pay someone to do it.

Get Jamie to swap the motor. Sell yours to someone for a rebuild.

 

[XLRVIII]

DLF sounds like a purtybrite fellah

he can prolly cut a light too I'll betcha