Engine rattles on startup

[04_Sport_LS]

I think you'll find the cam retard is the passenger intake cam. Both the Lincolns and the Jags suffer the same problem with the cam phaser... and it almost always seems to be the passenger side. I think it has something to do with the rotation of the engine,,, and the load on that cam phaser. I think if the engine rotated the other way,,, the drivers side cam phaser would be the problematic one then.

 

[RCodePaul]

Thanks for the kudos people,,, but I've been just as curious to solve this as everyone else. I did some more digging on the Jag forums... and there may be any easy fix.

http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s...vvt-issues-p1386-p1388-p1386-solenoid-112298/

Read post #3,,, and check the poster's sig. They have actually recommended this fix in multiple threads in the Jag forum.

http://www.jaguarforums.com/forum/s-type-s-type-r-supercharged-v8-x200-15/bad-vvt-68687/

If anyone is coming up on an oil change,,, try the 500 mile tranny fluid, (1 quart), swap.

I will definitely try the add engine flush/drain/refill with new + ATF deal. However, isn't that for the VVT error code versus the startup rattle? Looking through those posts nobody mentions clearing a startup rattle.
Also, if this doesn't do the trick, what are the part number(s) for the VVT units?
Thanks
Paul

 

[RCodePaul]

I lied...

Um, well, @#$% yes it helps. It helps massively. Huge thanks for your time and brain engagement. I don't think I need any more evidence than presented. The VVT unit leakdown seems completely in line with my symptoms. Particularly since it runs great, gets excellent mileage, passes smog etc. And by the way the old Gen two secondary chain tensioners looked A1 when I removed them and the new ones did not solve the problem. Further, when I pulled the cam cover there is no evidence of rubbing anywhere, the motor is clean as a safeway chicken and the (new) secondary chain is loose. All pointing to the vvt relaxing and leaving it loose.
who da man?
YOU da man!!!

I am now confused about what makes the VVT unit leak down. Some say it's the unit itself either sticking or being worn. Sent an email to Christopher in NJ who sells tons of TC kits for Jags and Lincolns and he wrote, "Hello Paul. I had a call about the same symptom from a customer last week. He determined that one of his VVT Solenoids was not functioning properly allowing the oil to drip out of the VVT unit after shut down. He said the rattle was only at a cold startup, and went away as soon as the engine RPM was raised to about 1500 rpm's. I have not heard from him again, He was looking to replace the solenoid, but I do not carry the solenoids. I hope this info is of use to you. Chris in N.J."

So what is the cause of the leakdown? Internal wear, sticking or solenoid issues? With few who've solved this on either Jag or Lincoln forums, I'm reluctant to pump the 14 hours into this job if it's an easy topside solenoid fixxie.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

You kinda answered your own question. The solenoid problems and codes are usually independant or caused because of cam phaser problems. Rrom what I have read, the issue with the cam phaser leakdown... is because of a check valve in the cam phaser that doesn't seal properly. This check valve appears to be made of plastic.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

If I were going to try and do this on the cheap,,, I would try just replacing the passenger side cam phaser and see if the startup rattle went away. This is of course while checking the condition of all other timing parts. Tha't not my style though,,, so a full timing system replacement will be my method because i always think... "as long as I'm in here I might as well...".

 

[Telco]

..because i always think... "as long as I'm in here I might as well...".

This is why it takes me 6 months to swap an engine even though, when I gotta have it done immediately, it's a one day job.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Yeah... exactly!!!

I'd love to do a 4.6 swap in my LS,,, but that would end up being a 2 year project for me . Already kinda have it firgured out though if anybody wants to try it. Lincoln Intech DOHC from a 2003 or 2004 Aviator. ECM and complete engine harness from same vehicle. 5r55s tranny from a Mustang,,, using the SST components from the stock LS tranny. And... lots of creative wiring. Of course... AS long as I'm doing that,,, I "MIGHT AS WELL" add a high stall converter, performance exhaust, CAI, Jag strut and brake upgrade,,, and swap in a Gen 1 diff with an 8.8 trac-lock with 3.73 gears.

So this will never happen for me. I know better than to even try it.

 

[Telco]

Yep. If I liked the car, I'd go with a Chevy 6.2 with AFM, VVT and direct inject heads backed by an 8 speed auto. I've already generally worked out how to make it all work including keeping the ABS and HVAC. I'd have to order a set of factory manuals for the LS to get particular with making it all work. But since I don't like the car, won't be happening.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Telco,

I hope you are being a bit facetious about not liking the LS, (and sticking a 6.2 in it). Granted,,, the car has it's quirks... but it's kinda like being married. You take the bad with the good,,, and hope she doesn't give up on you.

Ironically... from the research I've done,,, the new 365 HP 3.5L Ecoboost would fit in the LS. The only problem I see with that,,, is getting 2015 electronics to "play nice" with 2004 electronics. That's why I figured a decent upgrade on the 3.9 would be the all aluminum 4.6 from a similar year Aviator. My thought is most of the electronics would "play nice" with each other,,, with only some "pinout" changes in the connectors. Then you would have a 300HP/300 LB FT torque engine that would surprise a few people, (without the VVT issues).

I'm not looking for a Z06 or SRT killer,,, but something that will surprise a few modern cars of today. I've toyed with a few of them,,, and the LS is still no slouch in todays terms. I think Ford was on this right track years ago with the 4.6,,, but went overboard with the supercharger... and Jag sucking the life out of them. From what I have read,,, Jag killed the possibility of any HP version of the LS.

 

[joegr]

... My thought is most of the electronics would "play nice" with each other,,, with only some "pinout" changes in the connectors. ...

"Now that's funny right there I don't care who you are. That there is funny."

 

[1LoudLS]

Telco,

I hope you are being a bit facetious about not liking the LS, (and sticking a 6.2 in it).

not gonna lie, A LS3 would probably be at the top of my list too as a transplant option (followed by a LSA "intake" swap)...


and no, hes not joking about not liking the LS



as far as a 4.6 DOHC swap, if you were just going to a standard aviator engine, you wouldn't really gain any benefit for all of the headaches and work involved just to get the car to function for only a 20 HP difference... but as long as you use a C head motor, it does make other fun things a lot easier (well after its in anyways)... playing nice isnt going to happen no matter which 4.6 you use...

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Granted the 20 hp increase is minimal,,, but the torque increase would be greater. The 4.6 may not be the ideal engine swap,,, but it's been done by members of this forum, (with the headaches of a supercharger). Also,,, if another member of this forum can take a GEN 1 LS... and drop in a 5.0 from a similar year Exploder,,, and make it work, (including the milage readout)... then it's not so infeasible to do the same with a 4.6 in a Gen 2. Similar year electronics will marry better than stuff from a decade earlier or later. I stated above that the 3.5 ecoboost would fit in the LS. All well and good, but I don't think the engine management system of a 2015 vehicle would be backward compatible with the LS.

 

[1LoudLS]

Granted the 20 hp increase is minimal,,, but the torque increase would be greater.

ok so 14 is greater than 20?



if you want more than that you're gonna have to get a 4.6 out of a Mach 1 or Marauder since they have a different intake and headers (and I would be surprised if that was the only differences...) to get that extra 18ftlbs that takes it all the way up to 318, the aviator only has an even 300ftlbs and a 2nd gen LS has 286ftlbs.


still think its a lot of work for little gains...

 

[Telco]

04Sport, I really don't like the LS. Way too much faulty engineering in the car IMO, but I'm not going to go into detail out of deference for the people who do like it.

I would go with an L86 6.2L, which makes 420HP and 450TQ stock with tons of room to upgrade. Plus, with the fuel saving tech in this engine installed in an LS, it should push 30MPG or better. Might even be able to hit 35MPG cruising since you'd be able to run the engine in 4cyl mode a lot more than a Suburban would manage. That much power in the LS would be a lot more fun than what's in there now.

 

[RigsLS]

When do you see yourself getting rid of your LS Telco?

~ just so I can mark that glorious day down in my calendar.

 

[Telco]

When do you see yourself getting rid of your LS Telco?

~ just so I can mark that glorious day down in my calendar.

I didn't know landmarks in my life were so important to you... I'm touched. Really. Working on a mortgage and a house right now, so I can't make any major financial changes until that is complete. It's looking like that part will be done in September, maybe October. After that's done I can ditch it.

 

[RigsLS]

We'll say November just to be sure.

Good stuff, can't wait for you to get rid of your LS.

 

[Telco]

We'll say November just to be sure.

Good stuff, can't wait for you to get rid of your LS.

Thanks, that makes two of us!

Say, how desperate are you for me to dump it? 10 grand American as is, you can have it right now and I'll depart immediately. I'll even deliver it to Georgia wherever you drop stuff off after the check clears and help you load it on your tractor for the trip to Canada.

 

[Telco]

Thanks, that makes two of us!

Say, how desperate are you for me to dump it? 10 grand American as is, you can have it right now and I'll depart immediately. I'll even deliver it to Georgia wherever you drop stuff off after the check clears and help you load it on your tractor for the trip to Canada.

Gee, no offers from BigRig to buy my LS so I'll leave. Guess he loves me after all. Awww...

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Gee,,,

Sounds like some on this forum need to just by a Vette and get it over with.

Loud,

Thanks for the correction on the torque spec. For some reason I was thinking it was less. Either way,,, I thinl the Mach 1/ Maraurder/Aviator 4.6 would be a better engine for the LS. Like you or someone else said... now we have an aftermarket. I think the base 4V DOHC 4.6 would have at least gotten the same milage asthe 3.9. The car in my sig got 25-27 highway. Cruise all day long at 2500 RPM, (the only thing I wish it had was a 5th gear).

Telco,

What about the mileage of the LS is so wrong??? In the summer months,,, I see 30-32 mpg depending on temp, humidity, altitude, tire inflation... and roads I am driving on, (asphalt or concrete). What gear does your LS have??? The 3.31,,, or the 3.58? Mine has the 3.58,,, which could make the difference. I'm 1900-2200 at 55-65 MPH on the highway. So what is your definition of "cruising speed"???

 

[LS4me]

I'm 1900-2200 at 55-65 MPH on the highway. So what is your definition of "cruising speed"???

Those are on/off ramp speeds here!! And cruising speed??? Here; 80ish.

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Telco,

I'm sorry you feel the way you do about the LS. If you feel that way about the unserviceable suspension parts,,, then try buying a cadillac or other Luxury Sport brands,,, and tell me how it works out for you. Even BMW has it's quirks, (sorry,, Joegr). No manufacturer has it figured out 100 %. When anyone buys an LS,,, they buy the mindset of a replaceable part... rather than the mindset of a serviceable part. That is the Euopean and Japanese way... and the US is slowly adapting to that.

Unfortunately,,, the aftermarket parts quality has gone down because of that. What was German or British, or USA... is now made in Turkey, India, or China. Cars today aren't falling apart because they are old... it's becase they afre being replaced by inferior parts!!!

 

[04_Sport_LS]

Those are on/off ramp speeds here!! And cruising speed??? Here; 80ish.

.
That's 2 points plus a manditory court date for most of us around here. If we feel lucky,,, we''ll push 75... but with the road construction on I-75 ... 67 is pushing it!!! With the "stupid people" it's even worse. Today... traffic all of a sudden came to a halt. Veheicles were swerving to the edge of the raod to avoid a collision. I went deep into the right side,,, and was sideways on the ditchbank at 55 MPH. Milage went down then.

 

[1LoudLS]

I thinl the Mach 1/ Maraurder/Aviator 4.6 would be a better engine for the LS.

yeah, don't get me wrong, the twin cam 4.6 is the motor I think the LS should have been built around, and if I wanted to open that can of worms that is an LS engine swap, it would be at the top of my list along with an LS engine (simply due to the simplicity of the motor and the easiest and cheapness that can make power) but I definitely wouldn't just be going stock 4.6... lol, it would either be a terminator swap or building up a boosted version of any of the other versions (while C heads would be top choice so I could just drop an m112 right on, I could do B heads if the deal was right!)

the only down side would be space, while we have seen a couple LS with alumintators in them, its tight, like real tight... which is a huge reason that I would also consider a physically much smaller (bowtie) LS engine.

 

[1LoudLS]

If we feel lucky,,, we''ll push 75...

lol, round here, doing any less than 80 can actually be dangerous, and you'll probably get ran off of the road by everybody else doing 90!