Gen1 to Gen2 Pros and cons
- Thread starter WannabeeLS
- Start date
I'll try to break it down more plainly. This is what I believe your positions to be. Please tell me where I am wrong. Pick a number, or pick multiple numbers.:
1. The LS sucks because it is not as fast as Pontiac GTO
2. The LS sucks because it is hard to modify
3. The only true measure of speed and performance is in a straight line
4. You can't consider anything to be fast unless it can go 1/4 mile in 12 seconds
5. In instances where people make LSs approach 12 seconds it doesn't count (see number 2)
6. Horsepower is irrelevent unless it happens to prove your point at that moment.
I apologize in advance for my misunderstanding on one or all of the above. I will offer a retraction post for any of the above that I misunderstood. You just have to tell me which one(s).
Now, please show me with third party data and the source where either of my two assertions is incorrect:
1. Fast is subjective (proven by the SR-71 article quote)
2. The Lincoln LS compares well to its intended target (proven by the above numbers)
I am happy to cede any other point or arugment you believe I have tried to make in this thread. The above two points are the only ones I am supporting, well those and that the LS is faster than a Ford Windstar. I will happily review any other data that contradicts my assertions and adjust my point of view accordingly. I provided to you actual data and direct links to their sources. The data is based on actual track testing numbers from third parties. My two points are not made based on my own experiences. I have driven both my 2000 LS V8 sport and a couple of different 2000 BMW 545i's (one setup for racing and the other a daily driver) but that experience is subjective and therefore not worthy of being held up as evidence. Bottom line; show me some actual data that trumps my data and I will happily retract my two positions.
For the OP: Gen1 still has washer nozzles on the hood. The Gen2 is throttle by wire. Headlights and tail-lights are different. Gen2 has push button parking brake, Gen1 has classic pull handle.
1. The LS sucks because it is not as fast as Pontiac GTO
2. The LS sucks because it is hard to modify
3. The only true measure of speed and performance is in a straight line
4. You can't consider anything to be fast unless it can go 1/4 mile in 12 seconds
5. In instances where people make LSs approach 12 seconds it doesn't count (see number 2)
6. Horsepower is irrelevent unless it happens to prove your point at that moment.
I apologize in advance for my misunderstanding on one or all of the above. I will offer a retraction post for any of the above that I misunderstood. You just have to tell me which one(s).
Now, please show me with third party data and the source where either of my two assertions is incorrect:
1. Fast is subjective (proven by the SR-71 article quote)
2. The Lincoln LS compares well to its intended target (proven by the above numbers)
I am happy to cede any other point or arugment you believe I have tried to make in this thread. The above two points are the only ones I am supporting, well those and that the LS is faster than a Ford Windstar. I will happily review any other data that contradicts my assertions and adjust my point of view accordingly. I provided to you actual data and direct links to their sources. The data is based on actual track testing numbers from third parties. My two points are not made based on my own experiences. I have driven both my 2000 LS V8 sport and a couple of different 2000 BMW 545i's (one setup for racing and the other a daily driver) but that experience is subjective and therefore not worthy of being held up as evidence. Bottom line; show me some actual data that trumps my data and I will happily retract my two positions.
For the OP: Gen1 still has washer nozzles on the hood. The Gen2 is throttle by wire. Headlights and tail-lights are different. Gen2 has push button parking brake, Gen1 has classic pull handle.
DENNISJR60
Dedicated LVC Member
I'm just messing with you man! But being serious the Supra isn't that Supra, but it is definitely under a 12 second car driving with wheels to the ground. Ever here of Virtual Works? Not many people messing with their cars right now...
Morbid Intentions
Well-Known LVC Member
1,3,4,5,6
and my position is, if you would actually read it's plainly obvious these are not my poistions
your ZR-71 comment is mute, as all of you say speed is relative... but you cut the entire aspect of that phrase short
relative to what? because I've gone 10's and trapped 130+MPH down the 1/4 mile once upon a time... so by the rule of relativity in a realm I am a part of shouldn't the LS AND my GTO be slow?
you say speed is relative, well realitive to what end... if a 10 second car is "fast" in the theatre of relativeity to myself and another persons "relative fast" is 14 seconds.... by concept of what is faster bringing out two relatives together makes the 10 second car surpass the 14 second.... so if someone thinks a 14 second car is relatively fast and someone shows up in a 10 second street car what does it make that car? super duper duper duper scooby doo fast? or does it not count because it is beyond that person relative outlook on speed?
no, speed is relative on the account that whoever is faster usually has the upper hand on the conversation... regardless on whaqt people "think" is fast... a faster car is a faster car
the numbers are ENTIRELY too one sided to say "well, MAYBE it's a drivers race"... the 5 series will dance circles around the LS and then run away from it like it's a LS1 powered F body in the straights (it traps about the same as one) and then brake earlier than one...
and that's not even the half of it... look at the M45 pulling better numbers, look at the 3.2L Audi sitting at better numbers... look at every other luxury brand having a car in it's class that pulls better numbers.... look at the base model 3.6L V6 CTS pulling better numbers, both in a straight line, braking, and shouldering into a turn
I really don't think you understand just how "mediocre" the LS is at taking turns compared to the other cars in it's class... it's based on an S type chassis... not a lowered and stiffened 944 turbo chassis
You're starting to sound like you dont like the ls, so why did you buy it and still have it? Can't say just for a DD cause you could've bought something that doesn't use so much gas.
I dont think we are saying the LS is a beast of a machine and spanks everything out there. The car could've been an animal if it was kept alive but oh well it wasn't so that is that, but we like what it is and are happy with it or else we would have sold it for something better or faster. 02v8sport sold his to get a faster mazda, NYC LS8 sold his to get the 300. For some it was a step up from their previous car, for others like me, it was my first car and I think I made an excellent choice. I have had a lot of fun with this car, using it, breaking it and fixing it, "modding" it with the little things out there that are available, and I am still happy and do not regret getting the ls. I was actually looking into a gto as well, but couldn't go through with only 2 door.
Morbid Intentions
Well-Known LVC Member
Motor Trend IS 3rd party data
are you slow in the head?
facts and truths about an automobile doesn't mean it's dislike... it's just the way it is, it seems I'm the only one with enough balls to face facts and tell it like it is though... if I said that the brakes on the GTO are garbage for what it has to stop and warp very easily because they are so flimsy it isn't based out of dislike for the GTO... it's based off of facts, Iand I speak the facts for I am a realist.... same scenario here
speaking of which, I actually went out and bought a brake lathe so I can machine my own rotors... best investment for "tools" I have ever made...
POOPY ROTOR!
MAGIC!
Morbid Intentions
Well-Known LVC Member
oh damn, I give you what you want and back up what I've been trying to tell you for 3 pages and now all of the sudden you want to cry like a little girl
lol, nice
1 vote for you to STFU and take the Wahmbulance home... effing fanboys, all the same
as long as there are people like Pektel on this forum I see hope though
Facts: u are comparing cars in different classes or cost way more then the ls to the ls. U compared ur car to the ls
Finally u come in here taking :q:q:q:q of the ls just to start stuff. Then post pics of ur goofy skelton emo ass
Finally u come in here taking :q:q:q:q of the ls just to start stuff. Then post pics of ur goofy skelton emo ass
Morbid Intentions
Well-Known LVC Member
WHOAHHOHOH BIG WORDS FROM THE KID!
lol, grow up
also... you should come to the mustang forums I moderate... maybe I can teach you a few things about a car that you owned yeah?
now harness your mouth and grow up
and please take your 1st gen V6 and pretend you are someone with any great information somewhere else... you're illiteracy is annoying
Isn't the "ignore" feature nice?!
Morbid Intentions
Well-Known LVC Member
sadly for you I judge age by how people act... and you are 15
xD
"OH DAMN HE PROVED ME WRONG, IGNORE! IGNORE! NAME CALLING WAHH WAHH!"
Andemusprime
LVC Member
Ok, i disagre that this was information that should be given to a guy who likes the car already and is now just trying to choose between them. There is no point to discourage someone who is happy with their current choice...this is my first point. Next it does seem odd to do it on a forum of supporters, but without a diferent opion how would we ever learn anything. I for one didnt buy the car to make a track dominator, street or drag, or road course. I do think it would take alot to truly make the car perform on any of them to a high caliber. Next i belive it was said the fast is relitive not speed. 60mph is always 60 mph, dosent change by point of veiw. But fast does. To me the LS is fast for my daily driver. I have been driving a 4cyl truck and the ability to make it up the on ramp and be 5mph over limit by the end without flooring it is a big change from not being able to get to speed even like before. I bought my car cause it was solid, low milage and fun for me to drive with features i have never had. I also see no reason to ban someone from the site for his disagrement. I dont agree with some of what he says, or how he is saying it, but facts are still facts. I get around those same numbers reading any of the reviews i have found from 3rd party testers. I dont think anyones point here should be to argue facts, or get worked up about this. I was drunk on my first post, but im not one to normal get upset when i find someone who disagrees with me. Facts are any car any of us will own can be compared to something else and called slow, there is no magic number to hit to cross the border to fast land. There is what you want to do that matters. If you want to be fast to yourself and fast compared to the guy next to you, or fast compared to the record holders at your track then it makes sense to buy a base plateform that makes these goals easy to obtain. If you have a passion for one car over another, or one brand over any other then you have just refined your choices and made your selection of vechicles a easier endevour. If all you car about it the performance in a chosen feild then you have done the same thing and you know to research based on that instead or car brand or model loyaltiy. Doing any of this does not make your selection a horrible one, it makes it an informed choice allowing you to own a car you will love and thats the part that matters. So let him compare and even if you feel insulted you should still listen. Now next time your out with a date or on the track you can make an informed decison on how you will show off and what you will do it agaisnt. As for me, im going to stick to beating ford windstars in races around town to impress chicks and then tell them i dont like to beat on my car much when a gto comes around....hahaaaa
Missing Linc'
Dedicated LVC Member
Damn I keep missing out some awesome threads..
As promised to Morbid:
I am mistaken in understanding his arguments. And retract any posts where I assert that his opinion is any of the previously listed items other than that the LS sucks because it is hard to modify.
With regards to fast being subjective. I think you misunderstand what I mean. I am not saying that you can't call something faster than something else. That is not subjective. That is a measurable and comparible quantity. You can easily say that one thing is faster or slower than something else. "Faster" and "Slower" are comparative. "Fast" and "Slow" are descriptive and therefore subjective. Many people on this site have said the LS is slow. I am trying to explain that that statement is nearly meaningless. It is missing the important comparative, slow compared to what? I am assuming that all comparisons are made in the same frame aka theater of relativity. Just as someone can rightly say the LS is slow compared to a GTO in a straight line, I can rightly say the LS is fast compared to a Ford Windstar in any metric you choose. Now the merits of those comparisons is up for debate.
With regards to the numbers;
I will modify my statement based on the data provided by Morbid: The 2000Lincoln LS when designed compared well to the intended target: the 2000 BMW 500 series.
I belive these statements are both supported by the data. I happily admit that Lincoln did a crappy job with the platform and in the only redesign they seem to have half-heartedly thrown in a few minor tweaks instead of pushing the platform forward to keep up with the Euro cars. Also, I believe the word you are looking for is "moot" not "mute" (sorry pet peeve of mine).
I am mistaken in understanding his arguments. And retract any posts where I assert that his opinion is any of the previously listed items other than that the LS sucks because it is hard to modify.
With regards to fast being subjective. I think you misunderstand what I mean. I am not saying that you can't call something faster than something else. That is not subjective. That is a measurable and comparible quantity. You can easily say that one thing is faster or slower than something else. "Faster" and "Slower" are comparative. "Fast" and "Slow" are descriptive and therefore subjective. Many people on this site have said the LS is slow. I am trying to explain that that statement is nearly meaningless. It is missing the important comparative, slow compared to what? I am assuming that all comparisons are made in the same frame aka theater of relativity. Just as someone can rightly say the LS is slow compared to a GTO in a straight line, I can rightly say the LS is fast compared to a Ford Windstar in any metric you choose. Now the merits of those comparisons is up for debate.
With regards to the numbers;
I will modify my statement based on the data provided by Morbid: The 2000Lincoln LS when designed compared well to the intended target: the 2000 BMW 500 series.
I belive these statements are both supported by the data. I happily admit that Lincoln did a crappy job with the platform and in the only redesign they seem to have half-heartedly thrown in a few minor tweaks instead of pushing the platform forward to keep up with the Euro cars. Also, I believe the word you are looking for is "moot" not "mute" (sorry pet peeve of mine).
@morbid intentions
i never said it was anything.
i'm a fan of the car. i like it. i can afford a better car, but i have reasons for why i like the car and own it. on paper, i can think of several cars that are better- in a similar price range of course. aesthetically, i look at other cars, esp BMW's, and think they look great. but this is my car. and i like it. i don't claim it can do anything, except that i like it.
if you feel that way about your car, then great, we're on the same page.
i don't roll in here and talk about how my 3series beemer is better than my LS. that's something for the beemer forum; right?
you haven't struck a nerve. it's just that you are, in my opinion, an extremely arrogant person. you seem to feel that you know everything about cars. i've read several of your posts. i don't know what the reason for the chip on your shoulder is.
good luck with that though.
i never said it was anything.
i'm a fan of the car. i like it. i can afford a better car, but i have reasons for why i like the car and own it. on paper, i can think of several cars that are better- in a similar price range of course. aesthetically, i look at other cars, esp BMW's, and think they look great. but this is my car. and i like it. i don't claim it can do anything, except that i like it.
if you feel that way about your car, then great, we're on the same page.
i don't roll in here and talk about how my 3series beemer is better than my LS. that's something for the beemer forum; right?
you haven't struck a nerve. it's just that you are, in my opinion, an extremely arrogant person. you seem to feel that you know everything about cars. i've read several of your posts. i don't know what the reason for the chip on your shoulder is.
good luck with that though.
Morbid Intentions
Well-Known LVC Member
there is a difference between knowing everything and knowing more than most and knowing it... and listening to people ramble shows me just how much they know in retrospect... whcih is next to nothing... they are just fanboying it up puffing out their chests thinking they are proving something with their LS... like the kid that "smoked the new CTS-V"... or the fact when I give them the info they ask for they blow up like children... this is not an automotive enthusiast, this is a child with a hard on for the LS because they happen to own it
It's been said to me by other longterm members here that ever since the LS became affordable enough for any disability/welfare rabble teen to purchase it that this section has slowly gone down the drain with people such as this... I can see it, and so can others
xford
Well-Known LVC Member
+1000 :invasion:
And I might add the primary reason the 2000 Lincoln LS won Car of the Year was its relative value and how it compared to the competition at the time of its introduction.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/112_0001_2000_lincoln_ls_car_of_the_year/thumbs_up.html
Another tribute to its design is the fact that there are still forums such as this that debate the pro's and con's of the product. As Rainjacks said it would be amazing to see what would have become of the car if Ford had not let a strong product die on the vine. My best guess is the Lincoln brand would be in much better shape today if they had continued to invest in it.....
i'm an orthopaedic surgeon. i went to college, then med school and then post graduate training for 5 years. i'm not on disability. i'm not on welfare. i bought the ls when i started residency, and i still like it. you think you know everything, when, in fact, your knowledge is limited; at best.
you are an :q:q:q:q:q:q:q.
how ignorant are you? do you know what it's like to be on disability or welfare? or are you just one of those :q:q:q:q:q:q:qs who thinks you do? the $46 we pay to fill our tank of gas is what these people stretch for a week to buy food and other necessities. have you ever worked with these people? how dare you say what you did. you should be ashamed of yourself.
you should also be be banned from this forum.
that's it.
i'm done with this jerk off :q:q:q:q:q:q:q. :q:q:q:q him
I think he was a real chubster once.
Morb - You need to learn the art of communicating your knowledge in ways where people want to listen to you. If you consistenly find yourself warring with folks on Al Gore's greatest gift to mankind, guess who's got the problem? Knowledge without the smarts to convey it with some style = a$$hole. You'll learn that someday but probably the long, hard way.