God is Only a Theory

Book of Enoch... that's what I thought. part of the TALMUD, (oral traditions), until 300-100 BC. Maybe the Jewish history isn't that far off. It speakes of other Gods,,, and Elohim being married to one. If I remember correctly... God's wife was Ashtoreth... mentioned many times in the Old Testament,,, during the time the Israelites were worshiping pagan gods.

Yes... most people of the Ancient Bible would be perceived as superstitious. Again... the "cloud by day... fire by night" thing. The point you miss... or refuse to accept,,, is that the Israelites saw God in EVERYTHING about their lives.

The mountain they went to, (Sainai),,, trembeled with God's Prescence.... and that's where the 10 commandments came from. To me... as "DARK" as the book of Enoch came from,,, there may be a history that most won't believe. I already said I won't argue that point... BUT IT IS "MOOT" BECAUSE OF WHAT JESUS CHRIST DIED FOR ON THE CROSS!!!
 
Okay... so you really want to go there??? As i have said,,,the "book of Enoch" has some vailidity in the Jewish Tradition . My problem with you today... is why do you want to argue that point,,, when it has been made clear in modern Scripture that Jesus died for all mens sins. As the Bible says... Christ died for all.

Go ahead... mock God... The Bible is very clear about those who do!!! God may be hoping for a time you won't... but if you do... I hope you find salvation!!!

Go ahead... say,,, "aww... isn't that sweet... he's sticking up for his god"...

Do you really want to go there,,, because I can give more than acnecdotal evidence!! I can give "life experience".

So go back to the hole you came from "WormWood"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wormwood_(Bible)
 
04? Don't be so open-minded.
Your quote:`Daniel properly interpreted the dream,,, and warned of what would happen to his king, (at the time... briefly). In the end,,, king Nebuchadnezzar learned who GOD IS... and that is the point of the story. END OF DISCUSSION!!! '

Nebuchadnezzar was the minor fulfillment in that prophecy when he went mad for seven years or seven times. The major fulfillment was spoken of by Jesus about JERUSALEM being trampled by the Nations until the APPOINTED TIMES of the nations were fulfilled.

You cannot say, `END OF DISCUSSION', and make the prophecy go away.....Jesus spoke it. don-ohio :)^)
 
Don,

I wasn't making anything go away. I was correcting your previous erronious statement,,, where you said the angel/watcher cut the tree down for 7 times. The angel didn't cut any tree down. All he was was the messenger in a dream. God caused Nebuchadnezzar to go mad.

So either you need glasses... or a reading comprehension class. I'm not gonna play with you in this thread like the last one... so keep your twisted/forked tongue BS comments to yourself!!!!!!!!!! Where's the flippin ignore button?????????????
 
Wrm,

Regarding Enoch CH 18. The last part of that sounds familiar too. Wanna guess where it can be referenced??? That's right!!!! Again... THE BIBLE!!!

Matthew 25:41

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


Isaiah 14:12

12“How you are fallen from heaven,
O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
you who laid the nations low!


2nd peter 2:4

4For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment


Revelation 20:10

10and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.


I think it's safe to say,,,, that Jesus and the Apostles, (along with the saducees and pharisees... and others),,, knew the Talmud better than any of us here. I think it's also safe to say... that the Bible is accurate,,, and has not been re-written as you accuse.

Your problem... it that you are standing on one obscure book based solely on oral traditions, (the only full copy being an Ethiopian version,,, when that region was influenced by Greek Neo-Platonism, Gnosticism, and a few other isms),,, and denying the fuller picture and story of what the Bible says.

Again... I don't see where the bible has been re-written as you accuse... except by false religions that intentionally re write or omit things so that their bible matches the tenants of their faith, (cough-cough,,, Don). Most mainstream Christian versions of the Bible,,, align with each other... and tell the same story. I can give you at least 10 versions of the Bible for the Bible verses I quoted above.

Again... become more educated on the subject you are disputing,,, before you make a dispute. But be careful what you read,,, because it can have more influence on you than you realize. I said I read some of Enoch,,, and found it dry. Actually "dark" would be a better word. I felt very uneasy while reading it. I walked away from it... never to go back.

http://www.religionforums.org/Thread-What-Does-Jewish-Tradition-Say-About-Enoch

God IS veeerrry Real and Alive... and much More than just a theory. As far as evidence... you have been staring at some this whole time. Every time I make a post!!!
 
O4..................WHO was the tree? WHO got cut down? Nebuchadnezzar. He foreshadowed the gentile(nations) rule instead of God's rule thru a visible people on earth,the Israelites at his Holy Temple.
Nebuchadnezzar started domination over God's chosen people and they never became independent of nations again. They were always answerable to a mighty world power after that tree was chopped down.
So the tree symbolized God's rulership of his people on Earth. Now after the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled,as JESUS says, Jerusalem would no longer be trampled on. There is much MORE to Daniel than the initial prophecy that came to pass by the decree of Watchers over Nebuchadnezzar. don-ohio :)^)
 
Don,

I already told you I don't want to play with you any more.

And AGAIN... You believe that Jesus is/was an angel incarnate. I told you previously, (in another thread), that angels were imperfect beings,,, and capable of sin. The verses I listed above in post#130... PROVE THAT!!!

So the tenets of your faith follow,,, and believe in,,, an IMPERFECT being... and are based on lies and Heresy. I will not listen anymore to what you have to say... because it is all based on lies.

Continuing...

Back in that other thread,,, you posed this question to me:

"Who's gonna rule and who's gonna be ruled,04? Yer surely not believing the UN-Christian Jews are gonna rule Christians are you? don-ohio :)^) "

I told you that the only one who is going to rule... is Jesus. But I did a bit more research,,, and came up with the following.

Romans 11:17-18

17But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree. 18But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.

So Don... since you are a Gentile, (and if you actually had faith in the TRUE God), you would be grafted in... and receive the same Blessing as the Jews who had Faith. So don't be condescending towards,,, or think you have more than the Jews... because they received the promise FIRST. You will not rule over them... and they will not rule over you.

Galatians 3:28-29

28There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male and female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and God’s promise to Abraham belongs to you.

Colossians 3:11

11In this new life, it doesn’t matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbaric, uncivilized, slave, or free. Christ is all that matters, and he lives in all of us.

... that is Don,,, IF you actually believed in the TRUE God... and not in an IMPERFECT being,,, as you have been taught. Your religion,,, and your NWT have lied to you... and taken you down the wrong path.
 
Angels were perfect.They were created with free moral choice,like Adam, but being more powerful,higher beings. The ONLY imperfect angels CHOSE to become imperfect before the flood,and `forsook their proper place', following Satan's example.
You must understand these basic truths in order to understand why there is so much wickedness in this world.
God will soon dispose of Satan and ALL the IMPERFECT angels, and usher in a peaceful 1000 year reign that will bring mankind and the billions resurrected to perfection without Satanic interference.
If you believe all good people that are true Christians go to heaven,you need to reconsider God's original purpose for Adam,Eve,and all of their perfect offspring which would have resulted if they hadn't lost perfection.

`Through one man(we KNOW this is Adam) SIN entered the world,and thus death spread to all men because they all had sinned.' Do you remember this Bible truth?
don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote Don:

"... They were created with free moral choice,like Adam..."

Well... at least you got that part right. Angels have free will,,, and can choose to reject God at any time, (Just like Us).

Jude 1:5-6

5Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. 6And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—

So it seems that the original angels who rebelled,,, are in prison. So then,,, what demons did Jesus and the Apostles cast out of people during their time on earth??? Seems that angels are still defecting,,, and rejecting God... and following the devil. Either that... or the devil is a very busy being.

I understand more basic truths than you realize... but because you have been blinded by the lies and reconstructions of the religion you follow... you don't see it.

Don't start on the Adam and Eve thing again. If DON, or 04,,, or anyone else has been the first man... the same thing would have happened,,, and sin would have entered the world through "whomever". You are completely missing the POINT of the story about Adam and Eve. All men have a fallen nature!!! That's why we needed Jesus' salvation.

The idea of sin entering the world,,, is not that Adam caused it. It's that because of Adam's sin,,, the world was no longer pure and Holy in God's eyes. There is your basic TRUTH!!!

And... for the last time... Jesus is/was not and Angel incarnate. Angels can rebel,(SIN),,, just like humans. So stop putting your faith in an IMPERFECT being!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And your idea/teaching that there would have been perfect offspring is total BS,,, because humans were never created perfect!!!!

Go away Don. Better yet... spend some time in the DEEP trenches of life,,, and hang out with the unlovable and corrupt... just like Jesus did. Stop knocking on doors, and go to the places where life is REALLY messy. It may give you a better appreciation of all of the people who are hurting in this fallen world.
 
The below is found here:

http://www.gotquestions.org/angels-free-will.html


TheQuestion: "Do angels have free will?"

Answer: Although the Bible mentions angels over 250 times, the references are usually incidental to some other topic. Learning what the Bible has to say about angels can certainly aid in an understanding of God and His ways, but what is learned about the angels themselves must usually be drawn from implicit, rather than explicit, descriptions.

Angels are spiritual beings who have personalities that include emotions (Luke 2:13–14), intelligence (2 Corinthians 11:3, 14), and wills (2 Timothy 2:26). Satan was an angel who was cast out of heaven along with many other angels who decided to follow him and chose to sin (2 Peter 2:4). In terms of free will, the Bible reveals this was an exercise of their ability to choose (Jude 1:6).

Some scholars believe there was a sort of “probation period” for the angels, similar to the time when Adam and Eve were in the garden. Those angels who did not choose to sin and follow Satan have become the “elect” angels (1 Timothy 5:21), confirmed in holiness. These angels are also referred to as “holy angels” (Mark 8:38) and “holy ones” (Psalm 89:5).

Even if the elect angels are confirmed in their holiness, it doesn’t mean they have lost their free will. Certainly, every living creature has choices to make at any given moment. The holy angels might have the ability to sin, but that does not in any way mean that they will sin.

To help understand this issue, we can consider the life of Christ. Christ was “tempted in every way” (Hebrews 4:15), yet He did not sin. Jesus had the ability to choose whatever He pleased (John 10:17-18). However, Jesus’ first priority was always to please His Father, and that is always what He chose (John 4:34). In a similar way, the elect angels praise and serve God because they choose to; they obey God because that is what they desire most to do.

Humans have free will, but they struggle with sin because the human nature has been corrupted by sin. This is why all humans sin (Romans 5:12) and find it much more difficult to “be good” than to “be bad.” The holy angels are without a sinful nature. They are not inclined toward sin but rather toward righteousness, doing everything that pleases God.

In conclusion, the holy angels have a free will, but the Bible makes it clear they will not sin. The apostle John, in describing heaven, wrote there will be no mourning, crying, or pain there (Revelation 21:4), and anyone who does evil will never be permitted to enter (Revelation 21:27). The angels who are part of heaven are sinless.
 
Quote 04:` And your idea/teaching that there would have been perfect offspring is total BS,,, because humans were never created perfect!!!!'

04, you should realize that ANYTHING created by God is perfect.....Adam was perfect and Eve was a perfect woman and they would have begotten PERFECT children. READ Deut 32:4,then Heb.11:40, then James 1:17.
God's human creations were absolutely without blemish until Adam willingly sinned.At JOB 38:7 we see the reaction of the holy angels to His creative MAGNIFICENCE in creating the Earth. don-ohio :)^)
 
This has degenerated into a mess with a heavy emphasis of insistence on peripheral matters. I'm sure worm is pleased.

I'm done.

KS
 
A mess? Maybe for you,Cammer. But clearing up or DISCUSSING points about God's purpose for putting mankind's perfect parents (Adam and Eve) on the Earth should never be considered a mess. don-ohio :)^)
 
Sorry Cam,

I was just killing time until Wrm came back,,, since he seems to be a weekend warrior on this site. Actually though,,, most of what I have said... is still related to Wrm's last post about the book of Enoch, (where it references the fallen angels) . Stick around Cam... and I will do my best to bite my tongue with Don. I actually wasn't going to respond to him at this point.

Let's see if i can help get things back on track...
 
Quote Wrm:

"Oh, there is one other minor detail. Adam and Eve begat Cain and Abel, and as you all know Cain — as firstborns are wont to do to their laterborn siblings who compete for the limited parental resources — slew him. That left Adam, Eve, and Cain as the only humans on the entire Earth. But in Genesis 4:17 we read that “Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch.” Now, I don’t mean to burden you with more of the liberal media’s fascination with smut and porn, but I think as created beings endowed with intelligence and critical thinking skills blessed to us by the good Lord, it might be reasonable to ask just who it was that Cain “knew.” Unless Adam was himself blessed with both types of reproductive organs, or Cain was capable of parthenogenesis, then we are left with the theory that Cain “knew” his mother. But that’s just a theory, and as we all know, theories are just wild guesses and should not be taken seriously."

Wrm,

A much later but relevant story in the Bible you are ignoring is the fact that Esau sold his birthright to Jacob for a bowl of stew,,, and then later was very angry with Jacob for what Esau himself had done. But there is more to the story,,, and it appears that Jacob was chosen over Esau anyway. So firstborn, (by birth), does not always mean firstborn, (actual Chosen), in the eyes of God.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/246619/jewish/Jacob-Receives-Isaacs-Blessing.htm

But we can table that subject for a moment,,, because you are ignoring Adam and Eve's third son... Seth. The Bible, (at this time based on the Talmud), breaks down the lineage of Cain and Seth,,, but I am sure that there were a few daughters born by Adam and Eve also. How else would the population of the earth multiplied. But that is a minor consequence,,, and not listed... because the point of the Old Testament is to show the true lineage and point to Christ in the long run, (proving that Jesus is God).

But,,, your argumet of where Cain's wife came from... is lame.

Genesis 5:4 >>> http://biblehub.com/genesis/5-4.htm . Pick your translation Wrm!!!
 
Cain's sister was his wife,probably. The females weren't mentioned much in lineage of that time. Adam probably had many daughters along with sons, all imperfect like he had become. People were very dynamic, being closer to perfection and the genetic thing didn't apply at first.
Just look at Adam.............how close in genetics to him, closer than a sister, was Eve that was made from his rib.
So it wasn't like today where we are so far from perfection, and inbreeding even among cousins produces genetic defects.
don- ohio :)^)
 
Wrm,

If you read and study the Bible enough... including the New Testament,,, you will find that the choice to follow or deny God,,, comes from the HEART. Not a point exactly discussed in the Talmud,,, but if you remember the reason Cain killed Abel... is because Cain's sacrifice wasn't found acceptible to God... and Abel's was. Why??? The fact that Cain killed Abel... proved that Cain did not have a right heart with/for God.

There is a very perverse idea/teaching... that Cain came fron a union between satan and Eve,,,, and Adam (supposedly the actual "apple/temptation"). Basically a "threesome" that led to Cain and Abel being bi-paternal twins. IIRC... there is no mention of this in the book of Enoch, (which you so highly regard), or anywhere in the Bible.

Let's check Talmudic teachings to be sure, (if a person has the time and understanding mind to sort between the truth and lies):

http://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/eve-midrash-and-aggadah

check the sections titled... "Eve and the Serpent" ,,, and “Now the Man Knew His Wife Eve”

This is the mild version,,, compared to what I originally read. Seems even Jewish Rabbi's are undecided. Same with Ham "seeing Noah's nakedness", (same language used as in Leviticus). Was Ham's action the first account of homosexuality??? Why else would Noah curse Ham??? Even Jewish rabbi's are split on this part of the Bible/Torah.

Remember in a previous post where if I said I couldn't sort things out,,, I just left it up to God... and walked away??? I learned a long time ago that we as humans will never be able to figure out "the Bible as a whole". This is where FAITH comes in. Either you believe and trust in God... or you don't. Personally,,, I chose the first... and GOD has never let me down!!!!!!!!

How bout now Cam??? Are we back on topic??? Sorry to be snarky,,, but Wrm is right. It appears as though you are sitting on the sidelines,,, when in another post you showed your hand... that proved you are knowledgeable about God. Don't keep your light under a bushel basket!!!
 
Quote Cam:

"Might I suggest an alternative view?

The people who read the Bible back in the beginning---particularly the Pentateuch---were not equipped to understand the scientific foundation for what we now look on as evolution, so the original description was offered in language those long-ago people could understand. We, now, are better equipped to understand that a 'day' was used in Genesis to refer to a very long period of time indeed.

But, you see, my God is capable of creating in whatever way makes sense to him. I don't have to understand the nuances involved. He can do as He pleases. And I'm just fine with that. And because of our advances in science I'm able to comprehend a bit about just how he went about things without being hung up on the difference between days and eons."

Cam,

I will return the favor,,, and say... "very well said"!!!
 
What amI on now??? Page 2. I'm catching up.

Quote Wrm:

"always sounded more like a cantankerous bastard to me. righteous would be a stretch."


Based on your viewpoint looking at a several thousand year old "oral tradition"... viewed through the eyes of people that don't have the understanding we have today,,, of how things work.

However,,, since the Isrealites saw God in every part of their life, (rather than having the knowledge of science we now have),,, they saw what the modern world now obscures from our "minds eye". God operates in every facet of life. While some may not see it as fair,,, how much of it have we brought upon ourselves... by our own choices???

Do some research on what the bible calls a "generational curse"... and then get back to me.
 
Quote Wrm:

"no don'tknow, i'm alive because there is not a chance in hell it could ever happen, even though your book shows precedence(he's not a loving god as you present him. remember sodom and gomorrah, a little flood with noah. he's taken more life than created). it's because it's a fable as much as the rest of them.
all hail baphomet!"

baphomet huh??? Knights templar, Illuminati, and Masons. Maybe also the Skull and Crossbones society.... that mention a "new world order". Sorry Wrm. not my god.

As far as Sodom and Gomorrah,,, if you know and remember the story... Abraham begged God to spare those cities if they could be found with a righteous man. Lot and his family were spared,,, only by the intercession of Angels in human form... and as that story goes,,, the Angels had to drag Lot out,,, after Lot had stood up for them when the men of sodom wanted to have sex with them. Do I need to put the Bible verses out there for you to read???

I like this version in song... the re-formation of Lynyrd Skynyrd after the plane crash:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo5C1zOK16w



You tell me to try harder. Guess who needs to try harder??? You haven't even come close to proving to me that God doesn't exist. You NEVER will... because you are talking to a walking miracle. Wanna go further??? Let's talk openly on this forum about the loss each of us has suffered!!! Where do you want to start??? Pick a heartache/loss!!!
 
Page 3,,, quote Cam:

"Anyone DRIVEN to diss someone else's beliefs needs help well beyond that which is available here."

Not exactly true Cam. Most people diss God,,, because of something they have experienced. It's up to those who "Believe"... to share their story/stories,,, so that those that are hurting... know they aren't alone,,, and despite what they have suffered... God loves them. THAT is the message of Christ!!!
 
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