God is Only a Theory

So now I am doing a bit of research on Santorum,,, and his ideologies. Seems he has bought the "candy" of the modern secular world... which is denying the intent of the "founding fathers" of this country,,, and calling the Separation of Church and State, (Nation State) a form of Communism, (Socialism) This is far from the Truth... and another lie of recent past,,, to deny what this country was founded on... so that the U.S. will merge with the rest of the world, (New World Order).

I first did a search of this:

https://www.google.com/webhp#q=santorum+version+of+separation+of+church+and+state

Which led me to this:

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/12...ation-church-state-communist-un-american.html

and when you read the the article... halfway dow you will find this:

wrote to Charles Clay in 1815,,, which will lead you to this:

http://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/03-08-02-0181

At this point... Santorum's views seem to be very wrong... but again... Jefferson seems to be of some sort of Christian belief,,, and is tired of "religion" mandating by other devices.

It seems that Clay... is asking Jefferson to write and publish a book about religion,,, and Jefferson won't do that,,, but still talks about religion and Faith.

It seems that Jefferson despises the "religion" of the preists... but does not deny the Deity of God. A quote from the last link I provided:

" I abuse the priests indeed, who have so much abused the pure and holy doctrines of their master, and who have laid me under no obligations of reticence as to the tricks of their trade. the genuine system of Jesus, and the artificial structures they have erected to make him the instrument of wealth, power, and preeminence to themselves are as distinct things in my view as light and darkness: and, while I have classed them with soothsayers and necromancers, I place him among the greatest of the reformers of morals, and scourges of priest-craft, that have ever existed. they felt him as such, and never rested till they silenced him by death. but his heresies against Judaism prevailing in the long run, the priests have tacked about, and rebuilt upon them the temple which he destroyed, as splendid, as profitable, and as imposing as that."

At this point,,, Jefferson doesn't sound like a Deist to me.

Jefferson then goes on to ta;lk about his idea of "Separation of Church and State":

"Government, as well as religion, has furnished it’s schisms, it’s persecutions, and it’s devices for fattening idleness on the earnings of the people. it has it’s hierarchy of emperors, kings, princes & nobles, as that has of popes, cardinals, archbishops, bishops, and priests. in short, Cannibals are not to be found in the wilds of America only, but are revelling on the blood of every living people. turning then from this loathsome combination of church and state, and weeping over the follies of our fellow-men, who yield themselves the willing dupes & drudges of these Mountebanks, I consider reformation and redress as desperate, & abandon them to the Quixotism of more enthusiastic minds."

So it seems that Jefferson was anti- England government... and anti-England church. Thus the reason for separation of "Church and State".
 
Quote SD,

"I wasn't arguing that theocracies have never existed. Just that America was not, in any way, founded as such. The fact that there was a theocracy set up by God in the old testement is irrelevant to that claim; a red herring. Also, citing the Isrealites in the Old Testement as an example for other nations is a mistake. The Israelites were a very specific cirumstance, and it was in the Old Testement. Neither is generally applicable to today, epecially in the rhelm of politics, whereas the bible is largely apolitical. There are plenty of opportunists on both sides of the aisle who will pervert God's word to fit their own agenda, but it is mostly a political. This is not to say that religious views don't (or shouldn't) inform someone's political views, but you can't argue that Jesus was a socialist any more than God expects or endorses theocracy. "Don't immanentize the eschaton!"

The mythmaking I was referring to was in regards to America's past and the nature of the Union. The history contained in the bible is, again, irrelevant to that.

Jefferson being a Diest and Deists belief in God does, in any way, confirm theocracy. Theocracy is a very specific type of political system that was rejected by the 1st Amendment. "

end quote:

I never said you were aguing that Theocracies never existed. I was however contending your point that this country was never founded on any Theocratical beliefs. However,,, the Israel to Jesus to Christian history should prove my point. If one were to read the Old Testament,,, they would find that when the Theocracy of the Israelites was founded,,, they then instituted a system of "Judges" to interpret God's Law, (the 10 Commandments).

http://jesusalive.cc/ques349.htm Doesn't matter the link this time. Research of historial fact will show there were 15 judges.

Back in that day,,, the point of the judges... was to determine punishment against an individual who had broken the law, (10 Commandments).

Being that our country was founded on Theocratical beliefs... is why we have the Supreme Court, (even though they have lost their way over the last few years),,, and we (normally) only have seven. Notice that the Israelits had 15, (with a tie-breaker),,, and even though we only have seven... there is still, (normally... God Bless Scalia), a 7th tas a tie-breaker. All of the Supreme courts decisions,,, used to be based on the 10 Commandments... up until the last decade or so. Now their decisions,,, have been based on "popular will", (you should recognize that terminolgy from recent posts). Roe V Wade was the turning point for this country... and it's only going to get worse at this point.

To say that the Old Testament is irrelevant today... and doesn't apply to our lives,,, is a misnomer,,, because as most people fail to see... this country was actually founded, (at least in part),,, on the basis of the Old Testament.

So if the Old Testament is irrelevant today,,, then the 10 commandment don't apply today??? Is that what you are saying???

What are the 10 Commandments?

20 Then God gave the people all these instructions[a]:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of your slavery.

3 “You must not have any other god but me.

4 “You must not make for yourself an idol of any kind or an image of anything in the heavens or on the earth or in the sea. 5 You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me. 6 But I lavish unfailing love for a thousand generations on those who love me and obey my commands.

7 “You must not misuse the name of the Lord your God. The Lord will not let you go unpunished if you misuse his name.

8 “Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 You have six days each week for your ordinary work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath day of rest dedicated to the Lord your God. On that day no one in your household may do any work. This includes you, your sons and daughters, your male and female servants, your livestock, and any foreigners living among you. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens, the earth, the sea, and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. That is why the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and set it apart as holy.

12 “Honor your father and mother. Then you will live a long, full life in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You must not murder.

14 “You must not commit adultery.

15 “You must not steal.

16 “You must not testify falsely against your neighbor.

17 “You must not covet your neighbor’s house. You must not covet your neighbor’s wife, male or female servant, ox or donkey, or anything else that belongs to your neighbor.”


So if God's Law is irrelevant,,, and the Supreme court is no longer relevant... because both are from the the Old Testament and don't apply today ... ,,, ... then what law is actually relevant in this country today??? If you're gonna cite me the "golden rule"... then save your breath,,, because that comes from the 10 commandments.

Maybe the "specific circumstance" you cite, about the Jews and the Old Testament... is exactly what you are failing to see how applied to us when this country was founded,,, and that it still applies to us today. To ignore that... is pure secularism,,, where man can decide his own fate... and nothing is wrong. Hmm,,, man deciding his own fate. Seems like I have mentioned that before.
 
What defines "theocratical beliefs"?

What distinguishes "theocratical beliefs" from other beliefs derived from Christianity (like Lockean Natural Law)?

Specifically, what "theocratical beliefs" was this country founded on? What textual evidence do you have to prove this?
 
Remember this? THIS is relevant,04........................God's name,the Tetragrammaton, appears almost 7000 times in the Scriptures,yet you want to call His son by that in a title.
When Yahweh sees this He sees a disrespecter of truth. EVERY TIME you see a CAPITOLIZED `LORD' in the Old testament you are seeing a HIDING of the Tetragrammaton,God's name. God and Jesus(Yeshua,Joshua) want us to know the TRUE God's name.
Conspiring to hide God's name, in order to confuse people of the world, has worked for Satan down thru the centuries.
YET Jesus said in John 17 in his prayer to his Father, `I have made your NAME (that's Yahweh) known and WILL make it known'....

So don't hide God's name(thereby unwittingly helping Satan in his purpose), which he told us in almost 7000 instances.
Embrace the name of Yahweh.....pray in THAT name...that what His son Jesus wants.
don-ohio :)^)
 
Cammer,you may as well debate that `nonsense' as to skip the all-important message that the Bible relates. The GOOD NEWS that the kingdom of God is near in these trying times. don-ohio :)^)
 
You don't have to work very hard to see that in the Gospels it was taken for granted that Jesus was coming back within a short time. But we are also told that He won't come back until everyone has had a chance to hear the Good News and I believe there are many millions in the less developed parts of the world who've not yet had that chance. And we are adjured to pay no attention to such things."...ye know not the time..."

You're paying attention to the wrong things and far too concerned about your own place in things.

KS
 
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You don't have to work very hard to see that in the Gospels it was taken for granted that Jesus was coming back within a short time. But we are also told that He won't come back until everyone has had a chance to hear the Good News and I believe there are many millions in the less developed parts of the world who've not yet had that chance. And we are adjured to pay no attention to such things."...ye know not the time..."

You're paying attention to the wrong things and far too concerned about your own place in things.

KS
 
Sorry Cam!

Quote Don:

"Remember this? THIS is relevant,04........................God's name,the Tetragrammaton, appears almost 7000 times in the Scriptures,yet you want to call His son by that in a title."

Wrong again Don! I'm not calling Jesus the Tetragrammaton! People in the New Testament,,, called Jesus the Tetragrammaton... and worshipped him as such! Jesus called HIMSELF the Tetragrammaton! AND... the pharisees KNEW that Jesus was calling HIMSELF the Tetragrammaton... and that why they wanted to kill Him.

But then again,,, you wouldn't know that. Because over the last century or so... your leaders have wiped all of that TRUTH out of what you now use as,,, and call,,, The New World Translation, (or whatever the latest title of you book is). In their error,,, they have missed a few verses over the decades... so they continue to OMIT MORE SCRIPTURE from God's word. Thus the new publications, by different titles and name... and your older versions are ignored as incorrect.

Charles Taze Russell was a heretic of the highest degree,,, and he will answer for the minions he has led astray.
 
Despite Mr Russell's final destination,,, there is still hope for you Don,

Found here:

http://www.gotquestions.org/YHWH-tetragrammaton.html

Question: "What is YHWH? What is the tetragrammaton?"

Answer: The ancient Hebrew language that the Old Testament was written in did not have vowels in its alphabet. In written form, ancient Hebrew was a consonant-only language. In the original Hebrew, God’s name transliterates to YHWH (sometimes written in the older style as YHVH). This is known as the tetragrammaton (meaning “four letters”). Because of the lack of vowels, Bible scholars debate how the tetragrammaton YHWH was pronounced.

The tetragrammaton consists of four Hebrew letters: yodh, he, waw, and then he repeated. Some versions of the Bible translate the tetragrammaton as “Yahweh” or “Jehovah”; most translate it as “LORD” (all capital letters).

Contrary to what some Christians believe (and at least one cult), Jehovah is not the Divine Name revealed to Israel. The name Jehovah is a product of mixing different words and different alphabets of different languages. Due to a fear of accidentally taking God’s name in vain (Leviticus 24:16), the Jews basically quit saying it out loud altogether. Instead, when reading Scripture aloud, the Jews substituted the tetragrammaton YHWH with the word Adonai (“Lord”). Even in the Septuagint (the Greek translation of the Old Testament), the translators substituted Kurios (“Lord”) for the Divine Name. Eventually, the vowels from Adonai (“Lord”) or Elohim (“God”) found their way in between the consonants of YHWH, thus forming YaHWeH. But this interpolation of vowels does not mean that was how God’s name was originally pronounced. In fact, we aren’t entirely sure if YHWH should have two syllables or three.

Any number of vowel sounds can be inserted within YHWH, and Jewish scholars are as uncertain of the real pronunciation as Christian scholars are. Jehovah is actually a much later (probably 16th-century) variant. The word Jehovah comes from a three-syllable version of YHWH, YeHoWeH. The Y was replaced with a J (although Hebrew does not even have a J sound) and the W with a V, plus the extra vowel in the middle, resulting in JeHoVaH. These vowels are the abbreviated forms of the imperfect tense, the participial form, and the perfect tense of the Hebrew being verb (English is)—thus the meaning of Jehovah could be understood as “He who will be, is, and has been.”

So, what is God’s Name, and what does it mean? The most likely choice for how the tetragrammaton was pronounced is “YAH-way,” “YAH-weh,” or something similar. The name Yahweh refers to God’s self-existence. Yahweh is linked to how God described Himself in Exodus 3:14, “God said to Moses, ‘I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: “I AM has sent me to you.”’” God’s name is a reflection of His being. God is the only self-existent or self-sufficient Being. Only God has life in and of Himself. That is the essential meaning of the tetragrammaton, YHWH.
 
You need to study the Tetragrammaton and admit it IS a NAME,not a title,like LORD. In fact, the fragments of a Greek `Septuagint Version' in INVENTORY No. 266 of the Fouad Papyri, DATED to between 1st and 2nd century A.D., shows earlier copies of Septuagint DID use the Divine Name,as the Tetragrammaton.
I'm sure God put it in there almost 7000(6961 times) times just to say CAPITOL LORD as opposed to Jesus being Lord?
Why don't we just quit using Jesus' name since it has no vowels either and COULD be translated Yeshua? Hmmmmmm?
You have an aversion to NAMING God,because then Jesus would be more understandable as His son, a separate entity .

So let's just admit you don't give a hoot about what God's name is...........................but `He will take out of the Nations a people FOR His name'.(Read Acts 15: 14 thru 17) That certainly won't be you,will it? Read John 20:17 You don't believe Jesus either.
don-ohio :)^)
 
Oh,really? YOU know the time is not short,eh? Well,that's more than all the apostles altogether knew. You have NO IDEA how much preaching has been going on in the remotest parts of the Earth, Cammer.
`At a time you DO NOT think t be it,the Son of Man is coming'. Remember that saying of Jesus? don-ohio :)^)


cammerfe said:
You don't have to work very hard to see that in the Gospels it was taken for granted that Jesus was coming back within a short time. But we are also told that He won't come back until everyone has had a chance to hear the Good News and I believe there are many millions in the less developed parts of the world who've not yet had that chance. And we are adjured to pay no attention to such things."...ye know not the time..."

You're paying attention to the wrong things and far too concerned about your own place in things.

KS
Click to expand...
 
Don,

Hopefully I can speak for Cam properly. Part of the prediction Jesus made,,, was the overtaking of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Jewish temple... in 70 A.D. (not 70 C.E as you believe). However... this was only part of the prophecy of Jesus... and you recognize the rest, (although from a slightly skewed view... because of what you have been taught).

On top of that... a "short time" in God's eyes,,, can be millenia or 2 to us. Yes... we are approaching the end times. If I didn't care about you... I wouldn't still be going round - and - round with you.

I also think Cam is VERY WELL AWARE that the Gospel is being preached in the far coners of the earth,,, and that some pagans, (for lack of a better word),,, are finding faith in THE ONE TRUE GOD.

Did I do ok Cam?
 
Don,,,

The only reason I have used the word Tetragrammaton,,, is out of respect to what you believe. I worship and give thanks to the "I AM"!

Exodus 3:14 (NIV)

14God said to Moses, “I am who I am. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: ‘I am has sent me to you.’ ”

Jesus called HIMSELF... "I AM" in John 8:58:

"Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, before Abraham was even born, I Am!"

I don't worship the name of God... I worship and praise God HIMSELF,,, for who HE IS.


Food for thought:

http://www.jesus.org/is-jesus-god/w.../what-can-the-seven-i-am-claims-teach-us.html

also:

https://carm.org/religious-movements/jehovahs-witnesses/john-858-and-1030-33-i-am

Then again... Charles Taze Russell and his successors,,, have removed any trace of Jesus being "God in the Flesh" from the book that you base your "religion" on.

http://neirr.org/Tetragrammaton.htm
 
So Don,,,

It seems that you not only worship and praise an angel incarnate, (which can be an imperfect fallen being by their own choice)... but that you also worship the NAME of God,,, rather than God HIMSELF. Pagans have done this since the beginning of time.

GOD IS "I AM"! And since Jesus calls HIMSELF "I AM"... He is "God in the Flesh". Jesus was at the "burning bush" in Exodus Chapter 3. Jesus was the one that rescued Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace in Daniel Chapter 3. Jesus is the one that Jacob wrestled with in Genesis Chapter 32.... Because Jesus was God,,, looooong before he became Jesus.

But you won't see this,,, due to the teachings of the heretical forefathers of your "RELIGION".
 
No amount of misinformation spoken by you will ever take away the importance of using God's name. Like I said,you don't give a hoot about God's name ,so you will not be one of the people of the nations God takes a people out of FOR His name.
You DO have a choice to embrace God's name and his son's true stature in God's arrangement. But disrespect the name of Yahweh at your peril,04. I have tried to help. don-ohio :)^)
 
Don,,,

My main beef with you, (beyond misinterpratation of Scripture),,, is that you want to hit everyone over the head with YOUR beliefs... rather than have an open discussion about God,,, and share your thoughts and perspectives. Did you take the time to read what I posted in post #198... and how PAUL addresses the culture he is dealing with at the time in Athens????????????????

If Paul had gone on a "your wrong and are going to hell... and be prepared for Judgement rampage" with the people in his day,,, it would have gone over as well as if he would have urinated in the wine vats.
 
Response to discussion above regarding 'When'---

If you look at another thread I started recently, you see that I freely admit that there are things I don't know about. One of those areas is in regard to the calculation regarding lining up all the people in China and marching them four abreast past a given point. It's said that, just from that country, the marching would never end since people in China reproduce faster than they can get past the given point in the scenario. It's occurred to me that it might also be true that we can never get to the point where EVERYONE would have heard about the 'Good News'.

And I'm sure that there are many corners of this earth that haven't yet been visited by 'The Word'.

I, personally, simply do my best to be ready whenever HE comes and don't spend much time about what I DON'T know. As I've said I can always muster up the 'grain' of faith. And I have trouble with those so self-righteous that they can shake fingers and berate others around them. That seems to me to be counter-productive if your goal is to bring other seekers to understanding.

Do you take my meaning, Don?

KS
 
As far as God ("I AM") goes. I embrace HIM completely. Father, Son... and Holy Spirit. That may seem pagan to YOUR beliefs... but I have literally EXPERIENCED GOD's PRECIENCE... and it is something to BEHOLD. No amount of your false rhetoric will ever sway me from what I KNOW TO BE TRUE!

By other comments in this thread... it doesn't seem like you are going to win any converts here,,, so you may as well "move along".

Again... GO AWAY DON,,, unless you are willing to listen to reason... instead of the "candy" you are enjoying.

Matthw 7:21-23

True Disciples

21“Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’


So what IS "the will of The Father" Don?

Matthew 25:31-46

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25:31-46&version=NLT

The Final Judgment

31 “But when the Son of Man[a] comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit upon his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered in his presence, and he will separate the people as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will place the sheep at his right hand and the goats at his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you fed me. I was thirsty, and you gave me a drink. I was a stranger, and you invited me into your home. 36 I was naked, and you gave me clothing. I was sick, and you cared for me. I was in prison, and you visited me.’

37 “Then these righteous ones will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry and feed you? Or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 Or a stranger and show you hospitality? Or naked and give you clothing? 39 When did we ever see you sick or in prison and visit you?’

40 “And the King will say, ‘I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters,[c] you were doing it to me!’

41 “Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons.[d] 42 For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. 43 I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’

44 “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’

45 “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’

46 “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.”


So... unless you are willing to participate in an open debate... "go away Don".
 
Calm down Cam... I've got your back!

Quote Cam:

"I, personally, simply do my best to be ready whenever HE comes and don't spend much time about what I DON'T know. As I've said I can always muster up the 'grain' of faith. And I have trouble with those so self-righteous that they can shake fingers and berate others around them. That seems to me to be counter-productive if your goal is to bring other seekers to understanding."

Amen Brother!

I'd like to know the other thread you started. PM me if you don't want to announce it here in this thread.
 
So Wrm...

In post #222... I say this:

"... but I have literally EXPERIENCED GOD's PRECIENCE... and it is something to BEHOLD." (Give me the mis-pelling of prescience)

In post # 185... I mention a local newspaper editorial I am responding to... and mention part of my past:

"I am typing this from the perspective of a peson who lost their parents to murder/suicide at a very young age,,, and whose child was almost kidnapped during a high school music trip to NYC a few years back, right in front of my eyes as a chaperone. The details of both circumstances don't matter at this time."

Before that... you asked for proof of Jesus' existence,,, and I tried to provide you Historical links.

If you want to discuss any of this openly... (and with an open mind),,, I am not afraid to do so.

As the saying goes... "the ball is in your court",,, at this time.
 
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