Happy holidays to everyone !!!

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John 20:28-29
And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.

Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.





so if Jesus knew that he wasn't god, then why did he allow Thomas to call him god? why did he not correct him?
 
Here's what I don't understand about the whole debate. We all know Don plays Solitaire with a 50 card deck. Why are you arguing with him about this?
 
Don,

Look at John 1:1-4 (ESV)

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life,a and the life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

In laymans terms:

1 - In the begiing was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. 2 - Jesus was in the begiing with God. 3 - All things were made through Jesus, and without Jesus was not anything made that was made...

So... if God created everything,,, and Jesus created everything... then Jesus could not have created Himself... because Jesus is also God.

John 1:9

9The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world. 10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.

God, (Jesus), came into the world that HE made. Again... since God is the only one who can create,,, then if Jesus was not God he would have not been able to create. So either John and the Bible are lying... or you are having a hard time understanding what is being said in the above verses.

The only other thing could be that you are using/reading a unique translation of the Bible written for a different theology. In that translation John 1 says.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was "a god". This theology does believe that Jesus was an Angel before He became man.

Shalom
 
Telco said:
Here's what I don't understand about the whole debate. We all know Don plays Solitaire with a 50 card deck. Why are you arguing with him about this?
Click to expand...

I know...Huh?!?!?!?!?!?
 
The below is copied and pasted from here >>> http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html

"In Revelation, an angel instructed the apostle John to only worship God (Revelation 19:10). Several times in Scripture Jesus receives worship (Matthew 2:11; 14:33; 28:9, 17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38). He never rebukes people for worshiping Him. If Jesus were not God, He would have told people to not worship Him, just as the angel in Revelation did. There are many other passages of Scripture that argue for Jesus’ deity.

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world (1 John 2:2). A created being, which Jesus would be if He were not God, could not pay the infinite penalty required for sin against an infinite God. Only God could pay such an infinite penalty. Only God could take on the sins of the world (2 Corinthians 5:21), die, and be resurrected, proving His victory over sin and death."


I really like what the first sentence in the second paragraph says, (and it says it all):

The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AMEN!!!!!!!!
 
04_Sport_LS said:
Telco,

What's wrong with playing with a full deck? :p
Click to expand...

Umm... card decks have 52 cards. Don will never get there, was my point. In other words, he's not got a full stack of pancakes. His happy meal didn't come with fries. He's fishing without bait. His dog won't hunt. His drag light tree doesn't have a green light. His cooling system won't hold pressure. His roll of toilet paper doesn't have a thousand sheets. His terlet won't flush it all down. Make sense now?
 
04 SportLS quote: `The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!' end quote.

Wrong! God SENT Jesus, not the other way around. The first man Adam was NOT a god and what he lost, US, all his progeny, were bought back by the perfect semblance, Jesus.A perfect man. He kept integrity to the end, dying a horrendous death on a torture stake.
He was not God, but sent by God and came willingly. don-ohio :)^)
 
don-ohio said:
04 SportLS quote: `The most important reason that Jesus has to be God is that, if He is not God, His death would not have been sufficient to pay the penalty for the sins of the world!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!' end quote.

Wrong! God SENT Jesus, not the other way around. The first man Adam was NOT a god and what he lost, US, all his progeny, were bought back by the perfect semblance, Jesus.A perfect man. He kept integrity to the end, dying a horrendous death on a torture stake.
He was not God, but sent by God and came willingly. don-ohio :)^)
Click to expand...

A created being could never live a perfect life and never be the payment for humanities sinful nature.

You need to do research and not do just a cursory reading.
 
LS4me said:
A created being could never live a perfect life and never be the payment for humanities sinful nature.
Click to expand...

True. Jesus, even knowing for certain God was there, was fearful at the end when he asked God to not make him die on the Cross.

Really, I think one of the reasons God sent Jesus was, God is all-knowing, but this is an oxymoron. There is one thing that an all-knowing being cannot know, by definition, is what it is like to NOT know. By sending Jesus to live as a man, He was able to learn what it was like for us humans, who have to take God on faith. If Jesus, who knew for certain God was there , could be fearful of pain and death, how much worse is it for those of us who can't know for certain? Once Jesus went through death, God was able to know what it was like to not be all-knowing and knew what it took for us mere humans to believe in Him and what is to happen to us after death. This also solved the oxymoron, for the All Knowing learned what not knowing is. Of course, He gave us the gift of salvation through Jesus as well, for which I am immensely thankful.

My take on it, anyway.
 
Don,

Regarding post #237... I never said Jesus sent God!!! So don't twist what i say!!! (by your definition of what I said). I NEVER said Adam was a God/god! Jesus was/is more than a man! ... and much more than an Angel!!! Much more than a perfect man!!! I have dealt with many "door knockers" over the years... and none of them have anything that is Scriptually sound.

I could,,, and can be your best friend on this site... and on this thread. Others have made comments I wouldn't agree with,,, that I don't think were exactly fair toward you. However... I am still willing to listen to you,,, even though you and I disagree on major concepts of the Bible. I am still willing to listen,,, even though I don't agree with your Theology. In fact... if I dug hard enough into past posts from you,,, I could find a contradiction in what you have been saying. Maybe more than once. So be cafeful where you tread,,, and whay you say... and whom you accuse!!!

I will admit and concede that Jesus died a horrendous death. Something I would never want to suffer,,, and know that I couldn't!!! But in some ways I have understood,,, and God has showed me how I have treated HIM over the last few decades of my life.
 
Don,

Since you have raised my "ire"... I want you to list any chapter or verse where Jesus says He isn't God!!! I want you to list any chapter or verse where Jesus even alludes to the idea that he isn't God. Show me any verse in the Bible where Jesus DENIES being God!!!

I did a google search for the Bible verses: "when you deny me you deny the father". The following is what first came up.

Matthew 10:26-33 +

Have No Fear

26“So have no fear of them, for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known. 27What I tell you in the dark, say in the light, and what you hear whispered, proclaim on the housetops. 28And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29Are not two sparrows sold for a penny?h And not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30But even the hairs of your head are all numbered. 31Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows. 32So everyone who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven, 33but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven.

Don,

No one is against you,,, but is against your Theology. I don't know your background... or what you have suffered,,, but in the end of what the Bible actually says... Jesus want's a personal relationship with you, (oh how I have hated that wording over the years). It's true!!! Jesus is/was God from the beginning of time! Jesus Participated in All of Creation, (which supercedes Angels). At the same time... the lineage of King David predicts a savior of the world... and Jesus, (God made Flesh), is the means through which we are saved.

Belive me Don... I am all about semantics... so you couldn't have picked a worst person to debate with. However... I am not wrong in anything I have said over 241 posts.
 
Telco,

You say the following in an above post:

True. Jesus, even knowing for certain God was there, was fearful at the end when he asked God to not make him die on the Cross.

Really, I think one of the reasons God sent Jesus was, God is all-knowing, but this is an oxymoron. There is one thing that an all-knowing being cannot know, by definition, is what it is like to NOT know. By sending Jesus to live as a man, He was able to learn what it was like for us humans, who have to take God on faith. If Jesus, who knew for certain God was there , could be fearful of pain and death, how much worse is it for those of us who can't know for certain? Once Jesus went through death, God was able to know what it was like to not be all-knowing and knew what it took for us mere humans to believe in Him and what is to happen to us after death. This also solved the oxymoron, for the All Knowing learned what not knowing is. Of course, He gave us the gift of salvation through Jesus as well, for which I am immensely thankful.

In a post berfore this,,, you explain how you think you "ought" to be OK. You are!!! Don't think about it,,, but don't walk away from your Faith. You said in one post that you don't know the Bible as well as you should... but it seems as though you know it better than you admit. You say you don't get the chance to go to church. Why have I posted links to sermons??? By your above statements... I want you to know and underestand,,, that even though God sent Jesus to this earth... God forknew how many times we would disobey him. As the Bible states, everything was wriiten from the beginning. God Forknew his children,,, and those name are written in the Book of Life. God didn't NEED to send Jesus to earth to show that He was the "redemption for the world". God sent Jesus as the redeemer of the world,,, to show us that we were already forgiven. All we have to do is believe in what God has already done for us. Sacrifice Himself!!!

You hit the "nail on the head" without knowing it. God cannot know how we suffer,,, unless he knows and understands our suffering. The Oxymoron is... that God sent himself into this world to suffer. Not that we need his understanding of suffering to understand us,,, but that we need to understand what God Forknew about us.

It's late... I'm tired... and i will try to pick up on the deeper meaning of what i am saying. For now... goodnite and God Bless!!!

To All:

I have often debated within many religious circles,,, that the Bible is STILL being written today. I have gotten a kneejerk reaction from many people by that statement. Many people belive that the Whole of the Bible,,, is the end of the story. The sad part is that many people don't understand that when Jesus came on the scene,,, the Bible was meant to be a continous story till the end of time, (as we know it).

So I will say ADAMANTLY,,, that the Bible is still being written today in the words and deeds and actions of those who follow Christ. We may not be perfect at it... or a perfect representation of Christ... but we know that when we **** Up, ( I worded it that way intentionally), we still have a savior as long as we return to Him.

That, (as Paul Harvey would say),,, is "the rest of the story"!!! But is still goes on and on and on....
 
Wrong,04...........Jesus said again and again he was God's SON. We are made in God's image........are you your Daddy? Never! You were in a way brought to be by your Daddy. Jesus has been around for eons,but was CREATED,just as Colossians 1:15 says. If you choose not to know the true Jesus, I can't help you. don-ohio :)^)
 
don-ohio said:
Wrong,04...........Jesus said again and again he was God's SON. We are made in God's image........are you your Daddy? Never! You were in a way brought to be by your Daddy. Jesus has been around for eons,but was CREATED,just as Colossians 1:15 says. If you choose not to know the true Jesus, I can't help you. don-ohio :)^)
Click to expand...

You still haven't quoted a verse that says Yeshua was CREATED. You are hung up on the word son. Son doesn't necessarily mean a biological son. It can also mean positional. Saul/Paul calls Timothy his son. Was he Saul/Paul's biological son, created by him? I think not!
 
don-ohio said:
are you your Daddy? Never
Click to expand...

no. first off, we are all a little different from Jesus. second, we are a genetic mix of BOTH our fathers and our mothers... please remind me who Jesus other half of DNA came from during those eons of time before his birth was?
 
Ok Don,

Try these on for size:

Revelation 1:12-13

12When I turned to see who was speaking to me, I saw seven gold lampstands. 13And standing in the middle of the lampstands was someone like the Son of Man.h He was wearing a long robe with a gold sash across his chest.

So... the seven lampstands are the 7 churches,,, and the "Son of Man" with the golden sash is Jesus... right? What does Jesus say in vs 17-18????

17When I saw him, I fell at his feet as if I were dead. But he laid his right hand on me and said, “Don’t be afraid! I am the First and the Last. 18I am the living one. I died, but look—I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and the grave.i

Jesus calls Himself "The First and the Last". (The Alpha and Omega). This is not the only time Jesus calles Himself this.

Revelation 22:13
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

Revelation 21:6-7
Then He said to me, "It is done I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. "He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Revelation 1:17-18
When I saw Him, I fell at His feet like a dead man And He placed His right hand on me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.

Isaiah 44:6
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: 'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.

Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called; I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.

Notice the last 2 are from the Old Testament!!!
 
Now let's try this:

Quoted from here: http://www.gotquestions.org/alpha-and-omega.html

The CAPITALS added are mine for emphasis.... but the text is not changed



Question: "What does it mean that Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega?"

Answer: Jesus proclaimed Himself to be the “Alpha and Omega” in Revelation 1:8, 11; 21:6; and 22:13. Alpha and omega are the first and last letters of the Greek alphabet. Among the Jewish rabbis, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end. JESUS AS THE BEGINNING AND END OF ALL THINGS IS A REFERENCE TO NO ONE BUT THE TRUE GOD. THIS STATEMENT OF ETERNALITY COULD APPLY ONLY TO GOD. It is seen especially in Revelation 22:13, where Jesus proclaims that He is “the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.”

One of the meanings of Jesus being the “Alpha and Omega” is that HE WAS AT THE BEGINNING OF ALL THINGS and will be at the close. It is equivalent to saying He ALWAYS EXISTED AND ALWAYS WILL EXIST. It was Christ, as second Person of the Trinity, WHO BROUGHT ABOUT THE CREATION: “Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made” (John 1:3), and His Second Coming will be the beginning of the end of creation as we know it (2 Peter 3:10). As God incarnate, He has no beginning, nor will He have any end with respect to time, being from everlasting to everlasting.

A second meaning of Jesus as the “Alpha and Omega” is that the phrase identifies Him as THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT. Isaiah ascribes this aspect of Jesus’ nature as part of the triune God in several places. “I, the Lord, am the first, and with the last I am He” (41:4). “I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God” (Isaiah 44:6). “I am he; I am the first, I also am the last” (Isaiah 48:12). These are clear indications of the eternal nature of the Godhead.

Christ, as the Alpha and Omega, is the first and last in so many ways. He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), signifying that He begins it and carries it through to completion. He is the totality, the sum and substance of the Scriptures, both of the Law and of the Gospel (John 1:1, 14). He is the fulfilling end of the Law (Matthew 5:17), and He is the beginning subject matter of the gospel of grace through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9). He is found in the first verse of Genesis and in the last verse of Revelation. He is the first and last, the all in all of salvation, from the justification before God to the final sanctification of His people.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the first and last, the beginning and the end. ONLY GOD INCARNATE COULD MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT. ONLY JSESUS CHRIST IS GOD INCARNATE.

I could have capitalized more of the text above,,, but didn't want to overdo it.
 
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