Happy holidays to everyone !!!

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The King James is a very bad translation. For one thing it wasn't translated from the original languages. I would trust a Jewish Bible over ANY English version!

You need to approach the Scriptures from the eyes of the people of the time, NOT American eyes. The Jewish leaders had no question of who Yeshua claimed to be. He was condemned for only one thing... Claiming to be equal with Y..A..H..W..H! He also accepted worship, something NO angel ever did.

I'm out....
 
Put your faith in a JEWISH translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures? Not me. They do not believe that the Messiah has come. They missed it almost 2000 years ago.
Jesus said:`Look! Your house is abandoned to you.' That meant that Yahweh would no longer consider their temple as the center of true worship. don-ohio :)^)


P.S.: Yeshua was the same name as Joshua in Hebrew.
 
there is a lot of talk in the bible about all of the things god created, yet Jesus has never been one of them. again, you are getting caught up the word "firstborn"




Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

The Greek word, prōtotokos, translated "firstborn" is not a noun, but an adjective. If it were really referring to being born, the verse is theologically incorrect. Adam was the firstborn man of creation (although he wasn't really born). Cain was actually the first to be actually born into the creation. Jesus was not born until thousands of year later. The word "firstborn" in this verse does not refer to a physical birth, but refers to Jesus' position to inherit the creation. In Jewish law, the firstborn inherited the lion's share of his father's estate. Jesus is to inherit the creation. It has nothing to do with being created. Verse 18 from this chapter of Colossians goes on to directly contradict Jesus being created describing Him as existing in "the beginning." This same verse describes Jesus as being the "firstborn from the dead" and defines Jesus as having "first place in everything," demonstrating that "firstborn" refers to position and not creation.
 
don-ohio said:
Put your faith in a JEWISH translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures?
Click to expand...

actually you are putting YOUR faith into a christian Greek translation of Jewish scriptures...






or more correctly, a 500ish year old English translation of a Latin translation of Jewish scriptures...
 
Actually Loud,you are trying to make a specious argument about something written in stone: That is the fact that Jesus is called `Firstborn of all creation', which leaves NO doubt that Jesus was the first thing God Almighty created.
There is no trinity...........that came from Babylonian beliefs and Egyptian beliefs among others.
All creation came thru the created Jesus.
Who did Jesus worship? Yahweh,the One who created him.
Remember? Jesus himself said: "Ì am going my way to MY Father and your Father,....to MY God and your God'. don-ohio :)^)
 
don-ohio said:
Actually Loud,you are trying to make a specious argument about something written in stone:
Click to expand...

as are you...

don-ohio said:
That is the fact that Jesus is called `Firstborn of all creation', which leaves NO doubt that Jesus was the first thing God Almighty created.
Click to expand...

so now you are also a linguistics expert that specializes in ancient languages?

regardless, that proves nothing at all, other than thats how YOU choose to interpret it.
 
Let's try this... found here:

http://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-first-born.html

Question: "What does it mean that Jesus is the 'first-born' over Creation?"

Answer: In a letter to the church at Colossae, the Apostle Paul gave an intriguing description of Jesus. In it, he explained Christ's relationship to God the Father and to creation. Some have claimed that Paul’s description of Christ as the first-born of creation means that Jesus was created -- not eternal, not God. Such a doctrine, however, conflicts with the rest of the Bible. Christ could not be both Creator and created; John 1 clearly names Him Creator. Let’s take a careful look at the passage where Jesus is called the first-born.

Colossians 1:15-21
“And He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities — all things have been created by Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the first-born from the dead; so that He Himself might come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.”

Jesus is God
Christ’s relationship to His Father begins with the phrase "the image of the invisible God." The word “image,” meaning copy or likeness, expresses Christ's deity. This word involves more than a resemblance, more than a representation. He is God! Although He took on human form, He has the exact nature of His Father (Hebrews 1:3).

The "Word" of John 1:1 is a divine Person, not a philosophical abstraction. In the incarnation, the invisible God became visible in Christ; deity was clothed with humanity (Matthew 17:2). God is in Christ: visible, audible, approachable, knowable, and available. All that God is, Christ is.

Jesus is Lord of Creation
The description "first-born of all creation" speaks of Christ’s preexistence. He is not a creature but the eternal Creator (John 1:10). God created the world through Christ and redeemed the world through Christ (Hebrews 1:2-4).

Note that Jesus is called the first-born, not the first-created. The word "first-born" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the first-born was not necessarily the oldest child. First-born referred not to birth order but to rank. The first-born possessed the inheritance and leadership.

Therefore, the phrase expresses Christ's sovereignty over creation. After resurrecting Jesus from the dead, God gave Him authority over the Earth (Matthew 28:18). Jesus created the world, saved the world, and rules the world. He is the self-existent, acknowledged Head of creation.

Finally, the phrase recognizes Him as the Messiah: "I will make Him [Christ] My first-born, higher than the kings of the earth" (Psalm 89:27).

Six times the Lord Jesus is declared to be the first-born of God (see Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:15, 18; Hebrews 1:6; 12:23; Revelation 1:5). These passages declare the preexistence, the sovereignty, and the redemption that Christ offers.

Thus, the phrase "first-born of all creation" proclaims Christ’s preeminence. As the eternal Son of God, He created the universe. He is the Ruler of creation!
 
Even though the Bible is the living breathing word of God... we should instead be putting out Faith in God,,, and asking Him for proper unsderstanding of the Scriptures
 
Quote from LS4me:

"You need to approach the Scriptures from the eyes of the people of the time, NOT American eyes. The Jewish leaders had no question of who Yeshua claimed to be. He was condemned for only one thing... Claiming to be equal with Y..A..H..W..H! He also accepted worship, something NO angel ever did."


This is VERY true! Everything Jesus said was in relevancy to the culture of His day. Take a look at all the statements that Jesus made in reference to weddings,,, and study Jewish wedding customs. All of the references Jesus made... were either talking about Himself,,, and/or those who would or would not believe in Him.
 
Quote from Telco

"Y'all argue all you want. God made the world, and made us all. He wrote the physical laws of the Universe. Jesus was His Son. God sent Jesus to give us the gift of redemption by dying on the cross for our sins. Jesus is the Key to Heaven. I don't care about the particulars, but I know this is the way it was and the way it is. Jesus died to save us all, and rose 3 days later to take His place by God's side. I'm not the greatest person in the world, in fact the skeletons in my closet would fill three graveyards and 72.5 haunted houses and I'll likely have more before I die. Doesn't matter. Jesus died to save me. I don't care if I only rate a cardboard box in the middle of a cess pool in Heaven, it'll be better than the mansion of the Devil himself."

Amen! AMEN! and AMEN!!!
 
You guys do not believe what the Lord Jesus said. He said,time and again, `I am God's son.' God said at Jesus' baptism,``This is MY SON, whom I have approved. LISTEN to him.'

He NEVER said,I am God. He told the Jewish Pharisees at John 8: 17 and 18: `In your LAW it is written that testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself,AND the Father who sent me bears witness to me'. This SHOWS two separate entities bearing witness.....Jesus and Yahweh. Take Jesus at his word.
You should be HAPPY that God Almighty SENT Jesus(who willingly came) to earth to die and erase Adamic sin.
Instead you are arguing with the Lord, saying that he is making himself equal to God, like the Pharisees accused him.
Jesus IS who he said he is. don-ohio :)^)
 
don-ohio said:
You guys do not believe what the Lord Jesus said. He said,time and again, `I am God's son.' God said at Jesus' baptism,``This is MY SON, whom I have approved. LISTEN to him.'

He NEVER said,I am God. He told the Jewish Pharisees at John 8: 17 and 18: `In your LAW it is written that testimony of two men is true; I bear witness to myself,AND the Father who sent me bears witness to me'. This SHOWS two separate entities bearing witness.....Jesus and Yahweh. Take Jesus at his word.
You should be HAPPY that God Almighty SENT Jesus(who willingly came) to earth to die and erase Adamic sin.
Instead you are arguing with the Lord, saying that he is making himself equal to God, like the Pharisees accused him.
Jesus IS who he said he is. don-ohio :)^)
Click to expand...

Explain this...

John 8:58“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
Click to expand...

Here he claims the name of the Father... Stop getting hung up on one word. Just because the word trinity isn't in the Bible doesn't mean the principle isn't there. It is on many, may occasions. Yeshua's baptism is one of them; the dove represents the Holy Spirit, the voice is the Father and Yeshua Himself. There are also many more examples but seem to be at an impasse.
 
Very easy to explain it...............Jesus was the first created person. All things came thru him. He has existed for eons of time. Read Proverbs 8,wisdom personified,which is generally accepted as talking about Jesus. '
Prov.8:22 :` Yahweh produced me as the start of his ways, the first of his deeds of long ago.thru verse 36. Look at verse 30, `and I came to be beside Him as a master worker,and I came to be the one he loved day after day....................'

Jesus had a prehuman,pre-world,existence at God's side. Read John 17:5 don-ohio :)^)
 
I'm sorry Don... but I think you have a slightly skewed idea about Proverbs 8. It is not speaking about Jesus,,, but about Wisdom... which is a Character of God, (that according to Solomon we should all seek). If you look throughout the Book of Proverbs,,, Wisdom is characterized as a female... so this can't be Jesus. The Father, Son, and Holy spirit... are all masculine manifestations of God!!!

Yes... Jesus WAS, (and IS), in existance before time as we know it. However,,, He wasn't created as the Angels or Humans were. Jesus is/was not an Angel... and is not Michael the Archangel incarnated.

I AM... is a terminology God used to identify Himself to Moses on mount Sinai. I AM... are words used by Jesus many times in the New Testament,,, to identify who He also was/is in the Old Testament.

http://www.gotquestions.org/I-AM.html

I ask you to re-think your perspective on who Jesus actually IS. The hard part for anyone to grasp... is that God sacrificed Himself.

I get what you are saying about many pagan religions believing in a triune God,,, and that the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible. However,,, a human is also mentioned as being triune in the Bible. Body, Soul, and Spirit. Trinity is just man's way of trying to put the different ideas of God into perspective. There are many words used in Christian terminology,,, that won't be found in the Bible.

Shalom
 
To re-iterate what LS4 said... when Jesus called Himself "I AM", the leaders of the day knew exactly who Jesus was calling Himself. On top of that Jesus was accused of being from the devil,,, for the miracles he was performing, and for not following the ADDITIONAL laws created by the leaders of the day. They had taken the 10 Commandments,,, and turned them into over at least a hundred laws.

For instance:

No one was allowed to do any kind of work on the Sabbath. The definition of "work" turned into even carrying something. So on the Sabbath day,,, people traveled in pairs. After walking a certain distance,,, the person carrying an object... would drop it,,, and the other person would pick it up and carry it for a while. This went back and forth until the 2 people reached their destination. That way neither could be accused of doing work on the Sabbath. This wasn't God's Law... but what man had turned God's Law into.

In contrast... remember what Jesus said in Luke 14:1-6 (NLT)

1One Sabbath day Jesus went to eat dinner in the home of a leader of the Pharisees, and the people were watching him closely. 2There was a man there whose arms and legs were swollen.a 3Jesus asked the Pharisees and experts in religious law, “Is it permitted in the law to heal people on the Sabbath day, or not?” 4When they refused to answer, Jesus touched the sick man and healed him and sent him away. 5Then he turned to them and said, “Which of you doesn’t work on the Sabbath? If your son or your cow falls into a pit, don’t you rush to get him out?” 6Again they could not answer.

All of Luke 14:

http://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/14.htm
 
No,the Jewish leaders were angry that he claimed seniority over Abraham, in that he had a pre-human existence. What he said was the same as saying `I was'.
That has no relation to calling himself God Almighty. Doesn't jive with the rest of the scriptures. He said,`The Son can do nothing on his own, just what he sees the Father doing.'
The phrase on Exodus 3:14 means I am the Being and is not related to the Greek terms used in I am.
You disregard everything Jesus had said about NOT being equal to God,and try to make him equal to his Father.
Jesus is either God Almighty or he isn't..........Psalms 110 verse 1 plainly shows God Almighty will subject the Earth to Jesus. don-ohio :)^)
 
... I appreciate you guys keeping Ohio wrapped up in this thread... and out of the others!!! Imagine if Jesus said something about pressurized cooling systems!! :p
 
Your welcome G,,, although I would rather not see this thread get into a debate. As far as my stories... for every one I have told,,, there are 5 I haven't.
 
Don,

John 14:9,

Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

In other words... Jesus was saying to Philip, "When you look at me you are looking at the Father."

John 10:30

"I and the Father are one.”

John 10:31-33

31The Jews picked up stones again to stone him. 32Jesus answered them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you going to stone me?” 33The Jews answered him, “It is not for a good work that we are going to stone you but for blasphemy, because you, being a man, make yourself God.”

That's right Don,,, Jesus was about to get stoned... not because He made Himself more important than Abraham,,, but because He was calling Himself GOD!

http://www.gotquestions.org/I-and-the-Father-are-one.html

Matthew 1:21-23

21She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” 22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet:

23“Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son,
and they shall call his name Immanuel” (meaning God with us)

Isaiah 7:10-14

The Sign of Immanuel

10Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz, 11“Ask a sign of the Lord yourf God; let it be deep as Sheol or high as heaven.” 12But Ahaz said, “I will not ask, and I will not put the Lord to the test.” 13And heg said, “Hear then, O house of David! Is it too little for you to weary men, that you weary my God also? 14Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign. Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (God with us)

Isaiah 8:8-10

8and it will sweep on into Judah, it will overflow and pass on, reaching even to the neck, and its outspread wings will fill the breadth of your land, O Immanuel.”

9Be broken, you peoples, and be shattered;
give ear, all you far countries;
strap on your armor and be shattered;
strap on your armor and be shattered.
10Take counsel together, but it will come to nothing;
speak a word, but it will not stand,
for God is with us. (Immanuel)

The old and New Testament back each other up in this instance.

John 8:58

58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.”

Jesus was claiming to Be God... because He Is God. (in the flesh).

Again... God sacrificed Himself,,, it's just that our little pea brains can't grasp the fullness of this idea.

Quote from Don:

"...You disregard everything Jesus had said about NOT being equal to God,and try to make him equal to his Father..."

Don, list the scriptures you are talking about please.
 
I've already given you the truths(many scriptures) of the Bible spoken by the Lord Jesus himself. He never claimed to be God. He said he was God's son many times. He's shown in Psalms 110:1 as waiting for God to subject the earth to him. If you don't believe Jesus,you will not believe me. don-ohio :)^)
 
I'm really interested in how you are going to explain this one with your fuzzy logic...


Genesis 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness...


God speaks in plural a lot, if they are not both Gods, then how do they have the same image, or why are we made in their (both of them) likeness?
 
Titus 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God AND our Saviour Jesus Christ ;




Jesus is our savior and our god
 
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