High Output Alternator Resolution Discussion

[hite337]

I know this is a somewhat Gen1 centric thread, but if the Gen2 is *NOT* PCM controlled and using a simpler internal regulator then fabricating a bracket to bolt on a 3G/4G alternator and swapping over a wiring harness would be the solution there. Just need to find an alternator with a relatively compatible size and layout.

I know that DB Electrical make a HO alternator for the gen2 and if they are not PCM controlled then it SHOULD be a simple bolt on mod. If anyone with a gen2 has a HO alternator installed with no issues then please chime in to clear that up for the gen2 guys.

 

[NickT88LSC]

I have seen some towncar stretch limo's with 2 batteries and 2 alternators. The alternaor is mounted reverse, in other words pulley is facing the motor. Keep that in mind for an option if possible to make mounting easier. Of course there is more room in a Towncar.

 

[Andrizzle]

There is an LS (once in a blue moon member here) that has a HO setup in his gen 2 with a bunch of batteries in the trunk. He competes in car audio.

Don't have time to look for his name ATM.

 

[FrankLS]

His name was OBI I believe. IIRC he had 2 15" walled, DC audio. He did have a HO alt. I have the link to his build thread on my pc but I'm on the road right now.

 

[Stopsign002]

So gen II doesnt have this problem because the PCM doesnt get involved, only gen I?

 

[Kumba]

So gen II doesnt have this problem because the PCM doesnt get involved, only gen I?

If it's how I think it is, then the PCM's involvement is to just supply a voltage to the alternator telling it to turn on or off like a light switch. It doesn't directly control the voltage, wattage, load, etc, of the alternator. That is all controlled by an internal regulator circuit. It's that hunk of plastic on the back of most modern alternators. Basically the PCM has the ability to turn the alternator off during hard acceleration or cruising for fuel economy.

From what I can gather in this thread the Gen1 alternators output is directly driven by the PCM. In other words, in that diagram, the PCM would be energizing the field coil in the alternator directly. This would allow it to ramp the voltage up or down as well as the duty-cycle (output). It sounds weird to me but eh, I've seen worse.

I would like to think it's not really like that though. That's just a headache.

Maybe one day we'll see brushless alternators on cars and say goodbye to failing issues other then bearings.

 

[hite337]

If it's how I think it is, then the PCM's involvement is to just supply a voltage to the alternator telling it to turn on or off like a light switch. It doesn't directly control the voltage, wattage, load, etc, of the alternator. That is all controlled by an internal regulator circuit. It's that hunk of plastic on the back of most modern alternators. Basically the PCM has the ability to turn the alternator off during hard acceleration or cruising for fuel economy.

From what I can gather in this thread the Gen1 alternators output is directly driven by the PCM. In other words, in that diagram, the PCM would be energizing the field coil in the alternator directly. This would allow it to ramp the voltage up or down as well as the duty-cycle (output). It sounds weird to me but eh, I've seen worse.

I would like to think it's not really like that though. That's just a headache.

Maybe one day we'll see brushless alternators on cars and say goodbye to failing issues other then bearings.

That pretty much sums it up. After doing hours of research on PCM controlled charging systems I have found a lot of car manufacturers doing this. Many alternators are made for the GMs to overcome this issue but I have found none for LS, typical huh? I will be calling a few people today and asking some questions to get more info on this.

 

[Stopsign002]

If it's how I think it is, then the PCM's involvement is to just supply a voltage to the alternator telling it to turn on or off like a light switch. It doesn't directly control the voltage, wattage, load, etc, of the alternator. That is all controlled by an internal regulator circuit. It's that hunk of plastic on the back of most modern alternators. Basically the PCM has the ability to turn the alternator off during hard acceleration or cruising for fuel economy.

From what I can gather in this thread the Gen1 alternators output is directly driven by the PCM. In other words, in that diagram, the PCM would be energizing the field coil in the alternator directly. This would allow it to ramp the voltage up or down as well as the duty-cycle (output). It sounds weird to me but eh, I've seen worse.

I would like to think it's not really like that though. That's just a headache.

Maybe one day we'll see brushless alternators on cars and say goodbye to failing issues other then bearings.

Hmm interesting. Definitely have to love when the engineers spend time on crap like that instead of other stuff... If only they took that development money and put it into a LSD instead...

 

[hite337]

Hmm interesting. Definitely have to love when the engineers spend time on crap like that instead of other stuff... If only they took that development money and put it into a LSD instead...

Or instead of engineering a complete hydraulic cooling fan set up, they could've put an electric cooling fan with a bigger alternator in the LS. Then we wouldn't need to have this discussion.

 

[Broseph]

update from Torrie- he does have some alternator control dealing with max/min voltage and other options with setting optimal voltage based on bettery temp? If anyone knows how I can copy a image over from my email I can post the image he gave me of the SCT alternator control page explaining it all.

Sounds somewhat promising either way

 

[hite337]

Update:

I called Tom at Ohio Generator (the company that made QuikLS's alternator) and he said he had an alternator that would work for the LS. He said the reason their alternators work with the PCM controlled charging setup is they use the factory regulators. If you use a generic regulator on your alternators then you will have issues with the PCM not allowing your alternator to charge correctly. He also doesnt think using an underdrive pulley is a good idea because it will not give you the correct charge at idle unless you ramp up your idle RPM's. Tom had nothing good to say about DB Electrical alternators saying that they claim to put out 200 amps but they have no data sheet available to prove they actually put out 200 amps at 1500 RPM's. He sounded very knowledgeable and said they guarantee their alternators with a 1 year 1 time replacement warranty. Their alternators are rated at around 180 amps and they come with a data sheet to prove it. The part number is #8256 and is $395 + shipping.

I also called DC Power Inc. I talked to Stan and he said they do not make an alternator for our application but he understands the PCM controlled charging systems and they make alternators for those types of applications. He echoed Toms statement about needing to use the factory regulators to make these work with the PCM. He said that DB Electrical uses generic regulators and that could explain why they have charging issues. He then referred me to Wrangler Power Products.

I talked to Elvin at Wrangler Power Products. He also has knowledge of the PCM controlled charging systems and said the same thing about the factory regulators. They offer a 200 amp alternator that puts out 125 amps at idle (700 RPM's) and it will run about $289 + shipping. Their alternator uses the factory regulators and the builder is well aware of the PCM issues so he 'can't imagine they wouldnt work correctly'.


So all this being said, is it as simple as using the factory regulators to make these work or is it more in depth than that? The question will remain untill someone pulls the trigger on one. In my opinion the Ohio Generator alternator is the way to go. It has been proven once (on QuikLS's car) to work so if nothing has changed in the design it should still work.

 

[cammerfe]

It's common on race cars to mount an alternator in proximity to the differential so that a pulley can be installed integral with the yoke. I haven't done any measuring but my mental picture suggests that there's likely to be more room in the diff area than anywhere else on the car.

KS

 

[Telco]

An underdrive pulley is larger in diameter than stock, and I agree, not a good idea. An overdrive pulley is smaller. Example -Take a 12 inch crank pulley. A 4 inch diameter pulley driven by the 12 inch pulley will spin 3 times for every 1 time the 12 inch pulley goes around. A 3 inch pulley will spin 4 times for every 1 time the 12 inch pulley goes around. This was why I suggested an alternator pulley about 1/2 inch smaller than the factory alternator pulley. I know the numbers I'm using aren't 100 percent, but if we assume the crank has a 12 inch pulley and the alternator has a 4 inch diameter pulley, moving to a 3.5 inch pulley will spin the alternator at 650RPM (sorry, not sure what the car idles at) at the same speed that the 4 inch pulley will spin it at 740RPM. Hmm... perhaps a 1 inch smaller diameter pulley would work.

 

[hite337]

It's common on race cars to mount an alternator in proximity to the differential so that a pulley can be installed integral with the yoke. I haven't done any measuring but my mental picture suggests that there's likely to be more room in the diff area than anywhere else on the car.

KS

I had thought about this also but I think I have room for a smaller alternator to mount where the factory hydraulic fan pump used to be. The only problem is getting it to line up properly. I have my fingers crossed that we can get a HO alternator to work so I dont have to do that. A second alternator is my last resort but it maybe the easiest solution.

An underdrive pulley is larger in diameter than stock, and I agree, not a good idea. An overdrive pulley is smaller. Example -Take a 12 inch crank pulley. A 4 inch diameter pulley driven by the 12 inch pulley will spin 3 times for every 1 time the 12 inch pulley goes around. A 3 inch pulley will spin 4 times for every 1 time the 12 inch pulley goes around. This was why I suggested an alternator pulley about 1/2 inch smaller than the factory alternator pulley. I know the numbers I'm using aren't 100 percent, but if we assume the crank has a 12 inch pulley and the alternator has a 4 inch diameter pulley, moving to a 3.5 inch pulley will spin the alternator at 650RPM (sorry, not sure what the car idles at) at the same speed that the 4 inch pulley will spin it at 740RPM. Hmm... perhaps a 1 inch smaller diameter pulley would work.

I must have been backward then. The HO alternators I have tested have had a smaller pulley than factory. It didnt help the issue of charging correctly.

 

[Andrizzle]

Speaking of...

Progress on the Lincoln Rebuild - YouTube

 

[NickT88LSC]

An underdrive pulley is larger in diameter than stock, and I agree, not a good idea. An overdrive pulley is smaller. Example -Take a 12 inch crank pulley. A 4 inch diameter pulley driven by the 12 inch pulley will spin 3 times for every 1 time the 12 inch pulley goes around. A 3 inch pulley will spin 4 times for every 1 time the 12 inch pulley goes around. This was why I suggested an alternator pulley about 1/2 inch smaller than the factory alternator pulley. I know the numbers I'm using aren't 100 percent, but if we assume the crank has a 12 inch pulley and the alternator has a 4 inch diameter pulley, moving to a 3.5 inch pulley will spin the alternator at 650RPM (sorry, not sure what the car idles at) at the same speed that the 4 inch pulley will spin it at 740RPM. Hmm... perhaps a 1 inch smaller diameter pulley would work.

exactly, that is why I mentioned a different size pulley also meaning to spin it faster at idle, not the opposite way around which would be why the guy said not a good idea, da!!!!! He should know that though

 

[hite337]

Broseph has been in contact with Torrie and he says that the Xcal does has some alternator control but Torrie keeps asking what the actual problem is and doesnt understand what we are trying to accomplish. It sounds to me that he would need to have an LS with a HO alternator at his shop to diagnose and address the issue of charging spikes and unoptimal voltage. It doesnt sound like an easy fix using the Xcal but if anything on that end changes we will update asap.

Its looking more and more like a secondary electrical system is the way I will go. Add an alternator with custom bracket and a second battery to run the amps and electric cooling fan. I will be researching smaller alternators tonight. I'm just not sure if I want to take a chance on the Ohio Generator alternator.

As I write this I am wondering if (I cant remember for sure) if Torrie had QuikLS's car at his shop to do his supercharger tune, and if so, I wonder if he changed something in Quik's PCM to allow the Ohio Generator alternator to work properly. That is the next question for Torrie.

 

[Telco]

Then the best way to go might be to just turn off the alternator control altogether in the computer, and let the alternator control itself (via internal or external regulator) like they have since they were first used on a car. I understand the thinking behind controlling the alternator's operation to save fuel, but the way Ford did it on this particular setup doesn't seem to make sense if they actually specify that the alternator will only put out X amount of current at a set engine operational parameter regardless of the electrical load.

 

[Broseph]

Then the best way to go might be to just turn off the alternator control altogether in the computer, and let the alternator control itself (via internal or external regulator) like they have since they were first used on a car. I understand the thinking behind controlling the alternator's operation to save fuel, but the way Ford did it on this particular setup doesn't seem to make sense if they actually specify that the alternator will only put out X amount of current at a set engine operational parameter regardless of the electrical load.

That's what my initial plan was, but there could be the issue of the PCM then throwing a battery code. This stuff is unidirectional, that signal travels from PCM to alt then another line from alt to another part of PCM which does the input coding. Shutting off the one line would more than likely interrupt this path and throw an error message.

I would love to be wrong about this though.

 

[hite337]

That's what my initial plan was, but there could be the issue of the PCM then throwing a battery code. This stuff is unidirectional, that signal travels from PCM to alt then another line from alt to another part of PCM which does the input coding. Shutting off the one line would more than likely interrupt this path and throw an error message.

I would love to be wrong about this though.

I thought that would be too easy...damn.

 

[Broseph]

Broseph has been in contact with Torrie and he says that the Xcal does has some alternator control but Torrie keeps asking what the actual problem is and doesnt understand what we are trying to accomplish. It sounds to me that he would need to have an LS with a HO alternator at his shop to diagnose and address the issue of charging spikes and unoptimal voltage. It doesnt sound like an easy fix using the Xcal but if anything on that end changes we will update asap.

Its looking more and more like a secondary electrical system is the way I will go. Add an alternator with custom bracket and a second battery to run the amps and electric cooling fan. I will be researching smaller alternators tonight. I'm just not sure if I want to take a chance on the Ohio Generator alternator.

As I write this I am wondering if (I cant remember for sure) if Torrie had QuikLS's car at his shop to do his supercharger tune, and if so, I wonder if he changed something in Quik's PCM to allow the Ohio Generator alternator to work properly. That is the next question for Torrie.

Were working this out now hopefully have some new news in a few days. Is there not someone who is still in contact with Lou via phone or email to ask him directly? All the bromance from all these LS meets throughout the years, someone must be beyond virtual pals.

 

[FrankLS]

Heres a build on a Gen 1 who used a Mechman 220. OBI chimed in on his build if you read the thread. Havnt found OBI's build thread yet.

It seams like all went well for him. Ive been very short on time but im sure he"ll provide us with any information if asked.

http://www.stevemeadedesigns.com/board/topic/126784-2001-lincoln-ls-aa-build/

 

[Telco]

The way computer control would work is the PCM would recieve input, make a decision then send output. If the computer is told to disregard output, then it would receive the input, then do nothing. I don't think you'd have a problem turning it off.

 

[hite337]

The way computer control would work is the PCM would recieve input, make a decision then send output. If the computer is told to disregard output, then it would receive the input, then do nothing. I don't think you'd have a problem turning it off.

Now theres an idea....Thanks Telco

 

[Broseph]

The way computer control would work is the PCM would recieve input, make a decision then send output. If the computer is told to disregard output, then it would receive the input, then do nothing. I don't think you'd have a problem turning it off.

There are two issues with that- Im not sure if the PCM output can be locked out just short of removing one of the three pins on the connector ( I believe its the middle pin) since multiple questions about this to Torrie ended up in confusion. The second is if the battery is being overcharged (overheated) and the information being sent to the PCM isnt passed on to the alternator, what happens? Batteries arent cheap and Id hate to be the guy blowing through them.

This is why Im hoping to just expand the perameters so the overcharge control is still intact if need be. I'll know more on that tomorrow. If it doesnt work, I'll give the lockout suggestion a try (this is where someone who knows the schematics comes in handy).

If this fails, theres always a Gen II. But like all horrors, I like the original