Telco
Dedicated LVC Member
Good deal, keep us posted. If it doesn't work then perhaps we can try again with the programming angle.
High Output Alternator Resolution Discussion
- Thread starter hite337
- Start date
HO alternator
I too have converted from hydraulic fan to electric in our 2002. Using Flex-a-lite fan and VSC. The fan system load is close to 24 amps. Had issues when power to fans was connected to AJB. When fans would come on voltage at the stud on AJB showed an average drop 1.1 volts to 1.4 volts with spikes as high as 3 volts. This caused Traction Control and ABS codes to appear. Removed fan power from AJB and installed #4 power cable from "ships" battery to fan control. Voltage drop and spikes stopped. Only problem at this point was low system voltage at idle. Installed new aftermarket "DB" 110 amp alternator and overdrive pulley. Also cleaned alternator connector with electrical cleaner and De-Oxit. So far seems to be as it should. System voltage floats between 13.7 volts and 13.9 volts at the AJB, and 13.9 volts and 14.1 volts at the alternator.
So does the computer monitor the voltage drop across the "Mega-Fuse" between the BJB and the AJB, when controlling the alternator output and or system load? Or is there enough resistance in the fuse to create problems with high amperage loads and high charging currents?
I still have the original audio system and no other electrical load has been added except the electric fans.
I live in Southwest Oklahoma and with the temps over one hundred degrees, and so far so good. Time will tell.
Now if the OEM Alpine changer would work. Quit the other day. Looking into that in a few days. Seems to have constant power for clock and disc loading and ejection, just no radio display.
Just can't seem to keep everything working at the same time.
I am a new member of this forum, but I have been following several topics here for about 2 years. It has been most helpful. I joined so that I could share what I have experienced on the LS. I have owned it for about 8 years.
I too have converted from hydraulic fan to electric in our 2002. Using Flex-a-lite fan and VSC. The fan system load is close to 24 amps. Had issues when power to fans was connected to AJB. When fans would come on voltage at the stud on AJB showed an average drop 1.1 volts to 1.4 volts with spikes as high as 3 volts. This caused Traction Control and ABS codes to appear. Removed fan power from AJB and installed #4 power cable from "ships" battery to fan control. Voltage drop and spikes stopped. Only problem at this point was low system voltage at idle. Installed new aftermarket "DB" 110 amp alternator and overdrive pulley. Also cleaned alternator connector with electrical cleaner and De-Oxit. So far seems to be as it should. System voltage floats between 13.7 volts and 13.9 volts at the AJB, and 13.9 volts and 14.1 volts at the alternator.
So does the computer monitor the voltage drop across the "Mega-Fuse" between the BJB and the AJB, when controlling the alternator output and or system load? Or is there enough resistance in the fuse to create problems with high amperage loads and high charging currents?
I still have the original audio system and no other electrical load has been added except the electric fans.
I live in Southwest Oklahoma and with the temps over one hundred degrees, and so far so good. Time will tell.
Now if the OEM Alpine changer would work. Quit the other day. Looking into that in a few days. Seems to have constant power for clock and disc loading and ejection, just no radio display.
Just can't seem to keep everything working at the same time.
I am a new member of this forum, but I have been following several topics here for about 2 years. It has been most helpful. I joined so that I could share what I have experienced on the LS. I have owned it for about 8 years.
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The voltage drop is measured by Circuit 30-BA25. It is the positive battery sense circuit. It supplies current to the alternator rotor and turns on the voltage regulator. I dont have access to schematics, but if you can find that circuit thats where the PCM is getting the information.
My thought was to use the SCT to increase voltage to 16 so the PCM would tell the alternator to charge the system. I had issues with downloading the program and my factory unit was repaired and I just wanted to get the car back on the road (hate my saturn) so that got scratched.
Which brings up my epiphany after Hites discussion with Wrangler and Ohio Gen about the regulators. The PCM should be "recognizing" the low voltages at idle after these so-called HO alts are installed and is more than likely sending this info to the alt but it is just not responding (so my voltage increase wouldnt have worked anyway). I shouldve looked for voltage at the middle pin (.5 volts IIRC) to see if the PCM was telling the alt to run. If there is power there going to the alt then the problem is in the alternator not responding.
If anyone has one of the HO units around to test this, it could put this topic to rest and the regulator could be the culprit.
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Retard Edit:
The middle pin...aka PCM to alternator signal is Pulse Width. So I dont believe measuring for voltage would be correct although there should be a higher reading at idle since the PCM should be sending more current through the circuit to tell the alt more power is needed. Anyone know how to gather pulse width data? Maybe we could compare an HO data to factory alt data to get sone concrete answers
The middle pin...aka PCM to alternator signal is Pulse Width. So I dont believe measuring for voltage would be correct although there should be a higher reading at idle since the PCM should be sending more current through the circuit to tell the alt more power is needed. Anyone know how to gather pulse width data? Maybe we could compare an HO data to factory alt data to get sone concrete answers
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Wicked Ace
Well-Known LVC Member
Since, according to what you just posted,the PCM is sending a digital signal, I cannot verify, you would need an oscilloscope to read it. It would measure pulse width (time turned on or off), amplitude (peak voltage during turn on) and frequency ( how often the pulse is generated). If you could get me a block diagram of how this signal or better yet how the whole charging circuit works (PCM logic, I know how a basic charging circuit works.)I could translate it.
Two things: If this in fact a signal circuit and pulse width is the communicating language, current is not a measured variable. More than likely it would be looking at pulse frequency (on - off) though.
To the other fellow who wants to increase the voltage output, all your going to do is blow up your battery.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
No, it does not.
Alternator Connector
This sound a little too easy and everyone can take it for what it is worth.
I have a friend in that owns an auto parts store. And he told me a while back when I was having low voltage and charging issues to check the alternator connector for dirty pins. He has lost many a sale on alternators by going out in the parking lot and unplugging the connector and cleaning it properly.
I know he hasn't done the unplug and clean thing on the LS V8 in his parking lot because of the alternator's location.
I never checked for voltage issues on our LS before I changed over to the electric fan. But I did have issues with DCCV and other small problems that I never could find. Now the DCCV issues and other issues are gone.
The car never lit the charging system warning light, or had any noticable voltage issues. I read on another topic on this site where voltage issues can cause many unexplainable issues.
So just take it as a "Just Too Easy" thing. I did take his advice and clean and condition the pins on the connector. And we just had another round of over 100 degree temps here, and so far still cooling and charging.
This sound a little too easy and everyone can take it for what it is worth.
I have a friend in that owns an auto parts store. And he told me a while back when I was having low voltage and charging issues to check the alternator connector for dirty pins. He has lost many a sale on alternators by going out in the parking lot and unplugging the connector and cleaning it properly.
I know he hasn't done the unplug and clean thing on the LS V8 in his parking lot because of the alternator's location.
I never checked for voltage issues on our LS before I changed over to the electric fan. But I did have issues with DCCV and other small problems that I never could find. Now the DCCV issues and other issues are gone.
The car never lit the charging system warning light, or had any noticable voltage issues. I read on another topic on this site where voltage issues can cause many unexplainable issues.
So just take it as a "Just Too Easy" thing. I did take his advice and clean and condition the pins on the connector. And we just had another round of over 100 degree temps here, and so far still cooling and charging.
joegr
Dedicated LVC Member
I've had exactly this problem on my Ford Ranger.
Commander Cody
LVC Member
FWIW, I just emailed Alternatorpros, to see if they have any insight to this "issue"...will post their response.
I have never used them for anything, but the E36 crowd is quite fond of the work/product they provide.
Their website shows high output versions for Lincoln trucks, as well as Ford products, but when searching for the LS specifically, nothing was indicated as a "high output". Only variants were new or rebuilt, auto or manual, no amp rating provided.
I have never used them for anything, but the E36 crowd is quite fond of the work/product they provide.
Their website shows high output versions for Lincoln trucks, as well as Ford products, but when searching for the LS specifically, nothing was indicated as a "high output". Only variants were new or rebuilt, auto or manual, no amp rating provided.
Hite- I spoke with Elvin at Wrangler Power Products (I thought he said Eldin ). Anyway, we went back and forth, he said the others probably didn't set the speed on the alternator right for it to "come on" at idle. Regulators and other stuff was discussed too as well as the PCM control which they deal with semi-frequently and I feel confident he can produce a product that will work.
Here lies the rub...he said in our alternator case size we're looking at 150 Max output. The best part is cost is around $450. Before that, he said a 220 with 115 idle was in the upper $500. I'm sure they don't have two people there of the same name so I'm not sure where our cost discrepency of nearly $300 is coming from unless they upped the prices.
He's emailing what he will come up with after more research since he hasn't made one for our application yet. I am going to copy or say that you were quoted for $285 unless someone wants to call and see if they get something. I am ready to pull the trigger since my alt is now about dead, but $450 is a little too rich for my blood.
Here lies the rub...he said in our alternator case size we're looking at 150 Max output. The best part is cost is around $450. Before that, he said a 220 with 115 idle was in the upper $500. I'm sure they don't have two people there of the same name so I'm not sure where our cost discrepency of nearly $300 is coming from unless they upped the prices.
He's emailing what he will come up with after more research since he hasn't made one for our application yet. I am going to copy or say that you were quoted for $285 unless someone wants to call and see if they get something. I am ready to pull the trigger since my alt is now about dead, but $450 is a little too rich for my blood.
This damn car doesn't make anything easy.. One of the reasons I am running Digital Amps is to lessen the load on the factory charging system.
I can run a welder off the alternator in mustang at idle.. and all for $289
I can run a welder off the alternator in mustang at idle.. and all for $289
hite337
Hite Performance
$450 for 150 amp max is too much. I may go with Ohio Generator instead of Wrangler.
Got some bad and good news. My wrangler alternator came in yesterday. $350 105 idle- 180 Max....something like that.
Whelps, same damn issue....sorta. It puts out at idle. Idle was lower to mid 14s. Then came accessories. Everything was fine- lights, radio, heater ~13.3s. Then the rear defroster and heated seats. 12.7s ugh.
Regardless of components running, the lights would brighten on the gas, but I'm not sure what the issue is since I'm getting increased voltage at idle unless everything is on.
I'm hashing it out with wrangler. They asked about battery condition and such. Told them 1/0 Big 3 and kinetik 1800. I did mention the factory alt going out and my gauges jumping two days ago and he said my battery might be below charge. Well, I checked and I had 12.57 volts with the car off, and after driving 30 minutes (ample charge time) I still got the dimming lights.
I'm still working.g with Wrangler on it. A plus with them is good customer service. Hopefully good news next week
I'm
Whelps, same damn issue....sorta. It puts out at idle. Idle was lower to mid 14s. Then came accessories. Everything was fine- lights, radio, heater ~13.3s. Then the rear defroster and heated seats. 12.7s ugh.
Regardless of components running, the lights would brighten on the gas, but I'm not sure what the issue is since I'm getting increased voltage at idle unless everything is on.
I'm hashing it out with wrangler. They asked about battery condition and such. Told them 1/0 Big 3 and kinetik 1800. I did mention the factory alt going out and my gauges jumping two days ago and he said my battery might be below charge. Well, I checked and I had 12.57 volts with the car off, and after driving 30 minutes (ample charge time) I still got the dimming lights.
I'm still working.g with Wrangler on it. A plus with them is good customer service. Hopefully good news next week
I'm
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
weird. but one thing i have seen with most high output alternators is a lack of amperage at idle speed.
sure they produce more above idle, but i have always seen it come at a trade off with idle amperage.
its why the OEM does it like they do. to get idle amperage.
sure they produce more above idle, but i have always seen it come at a trade off with idle amperage.
its why the OEM does it like they do. to get idle amperage.
That sounds like a reasonable explanation but I don't buy that theory. There is a reason they rate the idles higher. I thinks its a matter of whether or not that idle is at the same rpm as OEM. My understanding is the pulley size determines that.
They seem to think its my connections or battery...that moving my negative to the alt casing from the starter bolt will improve it that much or my battery is undercharged....my connections are solid, and I doubt switching my ground to the alt case will create that much improvement.
...And the journey continues
They seem to think its my connections or battery...that moving my negative to the alt casing from the starter bolt will improve it that much or my battery is undercharged....my connections are solid, and I doubt switching my ground to the alt case will create that much improvement.
...And the journey continues
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
well you can overdrive the alt, but then you will be more limited on the max rpm.
if you overspin the alt its gonna fry a bearing or blow up or something.
so you have to balance the idle speed with your rpm capabilities.
it's a balancing act.
if you overspin the alt its gonna fry a bearing or blow up or something.
so you have to balance the idle speed with your rpm capabilities.
it's a balancing act.
hite337
Hite Performance
It funny how these manufacturers say 'oh ya, we know all about how these charging systems work, no problem' and then their stuff doesnt work right in the LS. This spring I am going to buy an Ohio Generator HO alt and see what happens with theirs. THERE HAS TO BE A WAY!
oddball
Dedicated LVC Member
Decreased voltage with accessories on IS the problem. Anything below 13.5 is cause for concern, and below 13 - at any time - is downright incorrect.
Gotta remember that the PCM control intentionally reduces alternator output at idle - depending on active accessories - to reduce alternator load on the engine. That has to be matched to the performance of the OEM alt so voltage stays within an acceptable range. It's pretty clear that there is not a fail-safe algorithm in the PCM to increase output in response to voltage. If the aftermarket parts aren't calibrated correctly to respond in the same way as the OEM, then you get this problem.
One of these days I'll have to put my scope on the alt wires and see if I can figure out WTH that signal is. I'll leave it to someone else to make a generator though.
To really get them on the battery you'll need to charge it with a slow charger overnight (car disconnected) and make sure its resting voltage is correct per the manufacturer. 12.5 resting is a little low. Driving for half an hour is not a battery charge cycle.
I'm going to get a ctek 3300. Its supposedly safe on kinetik batteries with a desulphation (or something) mode. I don't think 12.57 volts is low enough to cause the drop I had with accessories. Its definitely the alt.
Unless someone-Frank LS-I believe used the starter bolt for ground can she'd some input on its affectivness. It is the factory spot, and, like I said before, I don't think grounding straight to the case will help that much but I'm going to move it tomorrow anyway.
Unless someone-Frank LS-I believe used the starter bolt for ground can she'd some input on its affectivness. It is the factory spot, and, like I said before, I don't think grounding straight to the case will help that much but I'm going to move it tomorrow anyway.
Ill work with Wrangler on this. I think we can get this resolved. Hopefully they'll send a different unit this week (with some negotiation) so I don't have to remove this one and be on blocks for two weeks.
Update:
Got the alternator back from Wrangler with a 2" pulley vs. the 2 3/8" (whatever factory is)
Things have improved dramatically! My first impressions were very skeptical because the PCM was doing some funky calibration with the alternator after the first start up - It didn't kick the alternator on until after 10 seconds or less, which was very concerning.
After the weird boot-up scenario, the voltage jumped up to the upper 14s to low 15's at idle before steadying at upper 14s. I then started turning on accessories with the lighter load items first (lights, heated seats, heater with A/C and finally the dreaded rear defroster)
I did drop down to mid lower 13s when I turned the steering wheel at a dead stop which caused the rpms to drop and therefore voltage -this is normal though due to the load the pump is creating, once the PCM notices it the idle comes up and voltage is good. I got none of the light brightening when on the accelerator and. Like I said, lowest I got was mid 13s with everything kicking.
I only got to check all this over a two minute span because the 100" belt was too long because I'm getting bad squealing when on the gas (another reason why I think the weird voltage drop happened at start up since I can hear squealing when the load increases so my guess is I'm slipping a little)
Tomorrow I'll be putting on a smaller belt and running the tests again to get concrete results and I'll post back later, but it looks like Wrangler got the alternator right but the idle rpms were to low for it to kick on.
Fingers crossed...
Got the alternator back from Wrangler with a 2" pulley vs. the 2 3/8" (whatever factory is)
Things have improved dramatically! My first impressions were very skeptical because the PCM was doing some funky calibration with the alternator after the first start up - It didn't kick the alternator on until after 10 seconds or less, which was very concerning.
After the weird boot-up scenario, the voltage jumped up to the upper 14s to low 15's at idle before steadying at upper 14s. I then started turning on accessories with the lighter load items first (lights, heated seats, heater with A/C and finally the dreaded rear defroster)
I did drop down to mid lower 13s when I turned the steering wheel at a dead stop which caused the rpms to drop and therefore voltage -this is normal though due to the load the pump is creating, once the PCM notices it the idle comes up and voltage is good. I got none of the light brightening when on the accelerator and. Like I said, lowest I got was mid 13s with everything kicking.
I only got to check all this over a two minute span because the 100" belt was too long because I'm getting bad squealing when on the gas (another reason why I think the weird voltage drop happened at start up since I can hear squealing when the load increases so my guess is I'm slipping a little)
Tomorrow I'll be putting on a smaller belt and running the tests again to get concrete results and I'll post back later, but it looks like Wrangler got the alternator right but the idle rpms were to low for it to kick on.
Fingers crossed...
hite337
Hite Performance
This will be awesome news. Let us know what the results are with the shorter belt. I hope Wrangler has what we all need!
I got a text from last week about another company that says they have something to work in the LS. I am going to investigate more in a minute to see what the deal is with that one before I post here.
I got a text from last week about another company that says they have something to work in the LS. I am going to investigate more in a minute to see what the deal is with that one before I post here.
Faaawk
Ughhh.
I spoke to soon. Here are the readings I got with both the regular pulley (2 3/8") and the overdrive (2")
Here is what I emailed to Wrangler:
Hey Eldon,
I finally installed the alternator a few days ago, and I was able to switch my ground to the alternator case as well as buying the Diehard PM1 34 series deep cycle battery which is a monster; so I'm certain the connections and capacity are there.
Today I ran the voltage tests again and I have some unfortunate news.
Here were the last readings with the larger pulley:
With the alternator regulator connected. With NO electronic load (except dash/head lights)
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 14.58-14.71
1000 14.60-14.70
2000 14.56-14.70
3000 14.58-14.70
With the alternator regulator connected. With FULL electronic load
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 12.05-12.18
1000 12.60-12.72
2000 14.60-14.65
3000 14.60-14.65
Ignition off 12.71
And here it is now:
With the alternator regulator connected. With NO electronic load (except dash/head lights)
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 14.71-14.79
1000 14.72-14.78
2000 " "
3000 " "
With the alternator regulator connected. With FULL electronic load
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 12.65-12.78
1000 14.65-14.72
2000 " "
3000 " "
Ignition off 12.71
As you can see, the voltage at idle, and especially at 1,000 RPMS is improve, but there still is too much drop at idle conditions. In neutral, the rpms increase by 100 to around 850 and I was getting ~13.09 volts. So the smaller pulley helps bring the max range down but it's still too high. I'm not sure what can be done at this point, I would worry about going to an even smaller pulley. I have used my tuner to put the idle at 760 now to alleviate some of the issue, but the volts still dropped down to battery levels.
Would a lower amperage output lower the "effective range" of the alternator - say going to a 140 amp instead of 180?
Or am I going to have to switch back to a factory alternator and hope the bigger battery, plus the 0awg wire alleviates some of the stress? (There's no animosity behind this question, just wondering)
So....the journey continues. I may just end up with a reman Motorcraft with the 0awg wire and larger battery. I honestly think this may hold up, and to be frank, I'm tired of crawling under the car to pull out the world's most obnoxious alternator, even if I can do it in 20 minutes now. We will see
Ughhh.
I spoke to soon. Here are the readings I got with both the regular pulley (2 3/8") and the overdrive (2")
Here is what I emailed to Wrangler:
Hey Eldon,
I finally installed the alternator a few days ago, and I was able to switch my ground to the alternator case as well as buying the Diehard PM1 34 series deep cycle battery which is a monster; so I'm certain the connections and capacity are there.
Today I ran the voltage tests again and I have some unfortunate news.
Here were the last readings with the larger pulley:
With the alternator regulator connected. With NO electronic load (except dash/head lights)
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 14.58-14.71
1000 14.60-14.70
2000 14.56-14.70
3000 14.58-14.70
With the alternator regulator connected. With FULL electronic load
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 12.05-12.18
1000 12.60-12.72
2000 14.60-14.65
3000 14.60-14.65
Ignition off 12.71
And here it is now:
With the alternator regulator connected. With NO electronic load (except dash/head lights)
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 14.71-14.79
1000 14.72-14.78
2000 " "
3000 " "
With the alternator regulator connected. With FULL electronic load
Engine RPM Battery Voltage
Idle – 750 RPM 12.65-12.78
1000 14.65-14.72
2000 " "
3000 " "
Ignition off 12.71
As you can see, the voltage at idle, and especially at 1,000 RPMS is improve, but there still is too much drop at idle conditions. In neutral, the rpms increase by 100 to around 850 and I was getting ~13.09 volts. So the smaller pulley helps bring the max range down but it's still too high. I'm not sure what can be done at this point, I would worry about going to an even smaller pulley. I have used my tuner to put the idle at 760 now to alleviate some of the issue, but the volts still dropped down to battery levels.
Would a lower amperage output lower the "effective range" of the alternator - say going to a 140 amp instead of 180?
Or am I going to have to switch back to a factory alternator and hope the bigger battery, plus the 0awg wire alleviates some of the stress? (There's no animosity behind this question, just wondering)
So....the journey continues. I may just end up with a reman Motorcraft with the 0awg wire and larger battery. I honestly think this may hold up, and to be frank, I'm tired of crawling under the car to pull out the world's most obnoxious alternator, even if I can do it in 20 minutes now. We will see
hite337
Hite Performance
This is proving to be a monumental task. I may have to go with the Ohio Generator and see if that one works. DC may also have an alternator that works and another member is going to try that one. I am afraid that it will 'fit' but not 'work'. Ohio Generator is the only one that has proven to work (QuikLS) in the past but who knows.