Left andRight, meet in the middle.

Misrepresenting this as a issue of corporate law and using that as a wedge to confuse the issue is dishonest; the issue is not that complicated.

Your desperate intellectual contortions aimed at rationalizing your resentment of big business are rather sad. That resentment usually stems from the socialist "exploitation" narrative which is specious and ultimately based on appeals to envy and self-aggrandizement. Unfortunately, when it comes to issues involving corporations it is clear that, for you at least, passions trump reason and, in defending that view, the end justifies the means.

I like corporations shag - I have made much money off them... I also know there is a reason for laws like Tillman and FECA... it is best to learn from the past, rather than just repeat the mistakes over and over again.

Since I was with a group of friends this weekend who are quite interested in the corporate freedom of speech case, a judge brought up this scenario:

And contrary to what you said before shag - this is a very complicated issue.

The racehorse and freedom of speech.

Because most racehorses are corporations (the expense of owning one is quite great, and oftentimes the horse is incorporated, shares sold, liability lessened), what happens to the racehorse under the recent SCOTUS decision (Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, No. 08-205)?

Corporations are by law, property that is destined to protect itself, and be protected from others, including the officers, employees and shareholders of the corporation. The racehorse corporation has shareholders, but those shareholders have little input to the actual ‘running’ of the horse. The officers of the horse run the day to day management of the horse, but are dependent on the shareholders for funds to maintain the horse (especially early on in the horse’s career), and later are depended on creating a profit from the horse’s activities. What is paramount here is that the horse be protected, and he eventually creates income for the shareholders.

The officers of the racehorse corporation may speak on behalf of the horse, but those opinions must reflect what is best for the horse – it must reflect the ‘charter’ of the corporation. The shareholders have no ‘speaking’ opportunity at all, other than the ability to vote in new members of the board.

In turn, the horse is not allowed to speak for the personal beliefs of the people who work for the horse, or who own the horse. It is understood that when a board member is speaking for the horse, that the opinions she is stating are only those of the horse, and may or may not be her opinions. The horse may not say that it is speaking for the shareholders or the officers, unless an election has taken place and 100% of the officers, employees and owners agree. If 100% of the officers and shareholders don't agree there will be ultra vires suits brought against the company by those officers, employees or shareholders that don't agree. (Therefore, someone like FoxNewsCorp shouldn't be able to financially back a candidate because certainly one employee or shareholder will be against them).

So, there is no freedom of speech on what the officers or shareholders may say, beyond stating what is best for the horse.

At election time, the shareholders and officers decide to buy time for ads for a congressional candidate. They all belong to the same country club and church. They feel that they don’t have enough opportunities to get their viewpoint out regarding which candidate would best represent their beliefs, and this opportunity to use large amounts of money from their racehorse corporation appears to be the perfect solution. They can, in fact, load lots of money into the corporation by selling additional shares to themselves. However, because of the legal makeup of corporations, they may only support a candidate that represents the horse’s best interests, not the best interests of the shareholders or officers. Once again a form of ultra vires.

Remember the officers and shareholders don't have personal freedom of speech when they represent the corporation, or the corporation's funds, they may only act the best way possible for the corporation.

Since now the horse has freedom of speech, the candidate that the racehorse decides to back will reflect the horse’s needs on a political platform.

Candidate A supports lower income taxes on the wealthy, no healthcare reform, moving SS to a private sector model, a reduction in Medicaid benefits, is anti abortion, for zero farm subsidies, removal of all government support for higher education, retaining the current strict internet gaming laws and is for posting the 10 Commandments in school.

Candidate B supports higher income taxes on the wealthy, massive healthcare reform, expanding SS benefits to older unemployed Americans, increasing Medicaid and welfare benefits, pro abortion, higher farm subsidies, increasing government aid for higher education (especially doctors), is a strict separation of church and state proponent, would like to see a return to liberal internet gaming laws and a strong supporter for the ethical treatment of animals.

Now, in spite of the fact that the shareholders’ and officers’ beliefs follow exactly the promises made by Candidate A, the corporation will be required to support candidate B.

Candidate B – because of his support of farm subsidies (the horse's stabling costs would be reduced with a lowering of feed costs and shelter cost), along with the opportunity for better medical care (the government providing for the education of more veterinary doctors), his wanting to return to liberal internet gaming laws, which in turn support the racing industry, and his support of treating animals ethically would be the horse’s best choice for representing its interests in Congress.

Remember, it is the corporation that is allowed free speech, not the owners or the officers, they are only 'tools' allowed to do what is best for the horse, not for what they personally believe. Their personal freedom of speech is well protected outside of the corporate umbrella.

If the officers and shareholders decide to support Candidate A in spite of the evidence that candidate B would represent the corporation better, they would be acting against the best interests of the horse, and the corporation could sue, and if it was found that the board was acting against the best interests of the corporation, the board would be removed by the government, and damages could be sought.

Bottom line...

the horse has been given freedom of speech by the Supreme Court -
 
I like corporations shag - I have made much money off them...
Aren't you cute. Self glossing wealth on the interweb. You're so apparatchik.
the horse has been given freedom of speech by the Supreme Court -
Look at the good little Soviet lamenting the increase of freedom in this country. Lenin would be so proud.

Getting too lazy to link your articles, eh fox? Or are you using circular logic again?
 
Aren't you cute. Self glossing wealth on the interweb. You're so apparatchik.
Look at the good little Soviet lamenting the increase of freedom in this country. Lenin would be so proud.

Getting too lazy to link your articles, eh fox? Or are you using circular logic again?

But soon foss - some animals will be more equal than others. Shag was bemoaning about how perhaps the wealthy weren't getting an equal opportunity at this whole 'freedom' of speech thing -
from one post
There is also the issue of free speech here. Do you think rights lessen as wealth increases?
from another post
If all humans have rights regardless of wealth, that would include the owners of corporations, the employees of corporations, etc. Weather they act on those rights individually or collectively is irrelevant.
Well, now we all get to share our freedom with a horse. I am sure that this is exactly what Jefferson, Adams, Madison, et al had in mind. And hopefully shag understands now how freedom of speech allotted to corporations doesn't equate to freedom of speech for the owners/board/employees of the corporation.

I wrote that - my friend the judge outlined it at dinner - I thought it was a great concept and put it down...

Can't you tell I wrote it - it has run on sentences galore...
 
I wrote that - my friend the judge outlined it at dinner - I thought it was a great concept and put it down...

Can't you tell I wrote it - it has run on sentences galore...
It's some of the worst excrement I've ever read, besides being whiny and pedantic.

So, how's that Patriot Act these days? :rolleyes:
 
It's some of the worst excrement I've ever read, besides being whiny and pedantic.

So, how's that Patriot Act these days? :rolleyes:

Pedantic - now that is a new one for me, I can't imagine that anything I wrote would be considered pedantic... Shag however -
....focus on the authoritarian/totalitarian implications of Positivism and how it is incrementally injected into our system through progressivism...
:rolleyes:

However, I see you aren't attacking it because it is 'wrong'. It isn't - wave at those racehorses you drive by there in the land of blue grass - because they share freedom of speech with you... you might want to stop the car and have a deep and meaningful conversation with one, check out his viewpoints on castration.

Patriot Act still sucks - has sucked - always will suck. I hate that they continue to vote in the piece of crap. I am all over my reps/senators every time this sorry, misnamed piece of legislation needs to be extended beyond the sunset provisions.

So, how do you like it Foss? Maybe at some point one of your right wind (sic) pundits will get it right and get all over this as being so invasive and so against the constitution that you will finally pay some attention. Because, obviously until some wing nut tells you it is crap it isn't crap.
 
Patriot Act still sucks - has sucked - always will suck. I hate that they continue to vote in the piece of crap. I am all over my reps/senators every time this sorry, misnamed piece of legislation needs to be extended beyond the sunset provisions.

So, how do you like it Foss? Maybe at some point one of your right wind (sic) pundits will get it right and get all over this as being so invasive and so against the constitution that you will finally pay some attention. Because, obviously until some wing nut tells you it is crap it isn't crap.
Ah, the old groupthink attack. Apparently you haven't paid enough attention to my posts, because you'd have known that I'm not a huge fan of the Patriot Act. And you can run the whole 'search and seizure' thing across the board for the FBI, the ATF, and even the local police. Oops, your template got shattered just now, didn't it? :rolleyes: I was merely pointing out that YOUR beloved Democrats voted for the Patriot Act renewal, in line with the whole 'big government' theme.

I know you haven't done any searches, because you aren't aware that during the primaries I caught a lot of flak around here for supportnig Ron Paul.

So go spew yourself on somebody else.
 
Ah, the old groupthink attack. Apparently you haven't paid enough attention to my posts, because you'd have known that I'm not a huge fan of the Patriot Act. And you can run the whole 'search and seizure' thing across the board for the FBI, the ATF, and even the local police. Oops, your template got shattered just now, didn't it? :rolleyes: I was merely pointing out that YOUR beloved Democrats voted for the Patriot Act renewal, in line with the whole 'big government' theme.

I know you haven't done any searches, because you aren't aware that during the primaries I caught a lot of flak around here for supportnig Ron Paul.

So go spew yourself on somebody else.

I didn't have to search - we have discussed this before. So I assume your cheerleading of Cal - and your lack of support for those of use who were arguing that the Patriot Act sucks in this thread indicates to me that you are against the Patriot Act? /s/s That is the only place were I have really dealt deeply with the subject, and oddly I didn't see you arguing against shag and cal and their misrepresentation of the Patriot Act... Perhaps you thought I was doing just a fine job - doubtful, you claimed in post 18 I had been 'owned' by Cal.

'My Democrats' have fallen in line with this piece of junk since the beginning.

So, we are on the same side of the fence on this one Foss - your responses in the Life at the New Animal Farm thred seemed to indicate that you weren't. So, next time it comes up I'll see you not just cheer lead the other side, but come down against the Patriot Act?
 
I didn't have to search - we have discussed this before. So I assume your cheerleading of Cal - and your lack of support for those of use who were arguing that the Patriot Act sucks in this thread indicates to me that you are against the Patriot Act - that is the only place were I have really dealt deeply with the subject, and oddly I didn't see you arguing against shag and cal and their misrepresentation of the Patriot Act... Perhaps you thought I was doing just a fine job - doubtful, you claimed in post 18 I had been 'owned' by Cal.

'My Democrats' have fallen in line with this piece of junk since the beginning.

So, we are on the same side of the fence on this one Foss - your responses in the Life at the New Animal farm seemed to indicate that you weren't. So, next time it comes up I'll see you not just cheer lead the other side, but come down against the Patriot Act?
I'll do what I want.
 
So, as the right wing pundit wind blows so blows Foss... group think at its finest...

Waiting for Rush to weigh in on this - maybe Hannity or Dr Zero. They will soon - more Republicans voted against this latest round than in the past - maybe they are finally waking up -

Or maybe you need Sarah to twitter her views...

So, back on subject - thinking of becoming a horse whisperer?
 
So, as the right wing pundit wind blows so blows Foss... group think at its finest...

Waiting for Rush to weigh in on this - maybe Hannity or Dr Zero. They will soon - more Republicans voted against this latest round than in the past - maybe they are finally waking up -

Or maybe you need Sarah to twitter her views...

So, back on subject - thinking of becoming a horse whisperer?
zzzzzz...Your taunts are so lame.

Do us all a favor - see that picture to the left? Take a bite.
 

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