My Drilled + Slotted Upgrade by Brake Motive

Good thing I had it in my history...



Again guys, remember that ceramic classified friction material only refers to the reinforcement fiber that typically is potassium titanate, which compromises only a small percentage of the friction material matrix. It is an expensive fiber so in the aftermarket you can come across companies that just put a minimal amount into the matrix so they can call it ceramic for marketing purposes. Often these will still be organic or semi-metallic formulations.

Ceramic fibers have made headway in the industry to get away from the temperature sensitivity of semi-metallic formulations, so if you got good frictional delta with temperature you’ve got a semi-met. The higher the metallic, the larger the frictional delta. The other negative aspect of a true ceramic reinforced friction material is brake dust.

Disc / disc equipped vehicles do not have the old brake bias of the front brake doing a majority of the work. Well that is if the brake pad friction is balanced between front and rear, and the brake sizes are relatively equal. This is the direction the industry has gone during the last decade.

A rotor with holes drilled in was primarily designed to lessen rotational weight during events like autocross. While it has some attributes in wiping gasses from the rubbing surface of friction material, unless the rotor vanes are very well designed it does nothing for cooling. In fact without proper vane design there can be more of a thermal spread across the rotors rubbing surface then with a solid surface rotor as the air is pulled in only from the top holes and not drawing air from the inner holes or open vane section at the rotor’s hat. The other problem as mention is the loss of mass or thermal sink.

A quick sideline here is that from testing we had found that with holes or slots the friction material has to be very stiff and not compliant as compliancy will allow a thin layer of friction to be sheared off every time an edge goes past the friction material's rubbing surface as it stands proud.

During normal driving a rotor’s thermal rejection is done over a relative long time, not instantly. A brake relies on thermal mass of the rotor to absorb the energy as heat. You can do quite a few stops before the heat is no longer absorbed by the rotor mass and transferred to the air.

By drilling a rotor you are reducing the mass of the rotor’s rubbing discs, causing the remaining mass to heat up to a hotter level in a designated amount of time. Think of heating a 1” square of iron to a red-hot temperature. Drop it into a bathtub filled with water at 70°F and the water temperature does not increase that much. There’s a lot of mass. Drop the 1” cube into a cup of water at 70°F and all the water will start to boil. A small amount of mass to absorb the thermal energy. Same with rotors.

What you see in the front rotor picture of the Navigator are thermal shock stress cracks, not crack progression from stress risers when the rotors were bored. The surface is getting very hot in a short amount of time.

There are a couple of contributors that could be occurring here as the Navigator is not known for rotor cracking like the ‘90’s F-250/350 were as the front / rear brake balance of the Navigator is good. One is the loss of mass as mentioned. The metallurgy of the gray cast iron used for these particular rotors may not be up to the level that it should be. The friction material compound (the thermal friction characteristics mentioned tell me this is a semi-met in ceramic clothing) is too hard and not compliant causing thermal banding hot rings. Or the friction material used on the front axle is not matched to what is used on the rear axle shifting more brake bias to the front brakes. After all, the Nav is not a lightweight vehicle so improper frictional balance shifts a larger load.

The use of some means to remove gasses from thermally stressed friction material (holes or slots) is only needed when a friction material is exceeding it’s thermal limitations. Or you like the look. A poorly compounded or manufactured friction material can thermally degrade around 500°F. These are usually $20 pads. A good quality pad from a reputable manufacturer will hold up to 1000° to 1200°F or beyond. A performance racing type pad usually can get up to 1500° to 1800°F before developing fade from degradation, but it’s gold effectiveness will be very low. If you are using a good quality pad there is no reason for the holes or slots. Other then looks.
 
Nice price... Would getting these over spending around couple hundred more for the RotorPro package be worth it?

I don't want to be buying new rotors anytime soon...


Also I am assuming the RotorPro is the one that offers the best rust prevention coat?

Rotorpro also comes with Stoptech stainless lines. Can't remember if it's just the front lines for the gen 2 though.
 
good lesson, to bad no one will read that and apply it, mainly because for people with daily drivers it doesn't matter to them. Frankly it's interesting to learn about, but it will be ignored. which is fine most people learn by making their own mistakes and experiments.
 
Good thing I had it in my history...



Again guys, remember that ceramic classified friction material only refers to the reinforcement fiber that typically is potassium titanate, which compromises only a small percentage of the friction material matrix. It is an expensive fiber so in the aftermarket you can come across companies that just put a minimal amount into the matrix so they can call it ceramic for marketing purposes. Often these will still be organic or semi-metallic formulations.

Ceramic fibers have made headway in the industry to get away from the temperature sensitivity of semi-metallic formulations, so if you got good frictional delta with temperature you’ve got a semi-met. The higher the metallic, the larger the frictional delta. The other negative aspect of a true ceramic reinforced friction material is brake dust.

Disc / disc equipped vehicles do not have the old brake bias of the front brake doing a majority of the work. Well that is if the brake pad friction is balanced between front and rear, and the brake sizes are relatively equal. This is the direction the industry has gone during the last decade.

A rotor with holes drilled in was primarily designed to lessen rotational weight during events like autocross. While it has some attributes in wiping gasses from the rubbing surface of friction material, unless the rotor vanes are very well designed it does nothing for cooling. In fact without proper vane design there can be more of a thermal spread across the rotors rubbing surface then with a solid surface rotor as the air is pulled in only from the top holes and not drawing air from the inner holes or open vane section at the rotor’s hat. The other problem as mention is the loss of mass or thermal sink.

A quick sideline here is that from testing we had found that with holes or slots the friction material has to be very stiff and not compliant as compliancy will allow a thin layer of friction to be sheared off every time an edge goes past the friction material's rubbing surface as it stands proud.

During normal driving a rotor’s thermal rejection is done over a relative long time, not instantly. A brake relies on thermal mass of the rotor to absorb the energy as heat. You can do quite a few stops before the heat is no longer absorbed by the rotor mass and transferred to the air.

By drilling a rotor you are reducing the mass of the rotor’s rubbing discs, causing the remaining mass to heat up to a hotter level in a designated amount of time. Think of heating a 1” square of iron to a red-hot temperature. Drop it into a bathtub filled with water at 70°F and the water temperature does not increase that much. There’s a lot of mass. Drop the 1” cube into a cup of water at 70°F and all the water will start to boil. A small amount of mass to absorb the thermal energy. Same with rotors.

What you see in the front rotor picture of the Navigator are thermal shock stress cracks, not crack progression from stress risers when the rotors were bored. The surface is getting very hot in a short amount of time.

There are a couple of contributors that could be occurring here as the Navigator is not known for rotor cracking like the ‘90’s F-250/350 were as the front / rear brake balance of the Navigator is good. One is the loss of mass as mentioned. The metallurgy of the gray cast iron used for these particular rotors may not be up to the level that it should be. The friction material compound (the thermal friction characteristics mentioned tell me this is a semi-met in ceramic clothing) is too hard and not compliant causing thermal banding hot rings. Or the friction material used on the front axle is not matched to what is used on the rear axle shifting more brake bias to the front brakes. After all, the Nav is not a lightweight vehicle so improper frictional balance shifts a larger load.

The use of some means to remove gasses from thermally stressed friction material (holes or slots) is only needed when a friction material is exceeding it’s thermal limitations. Or you like the look. A poorly compounded or manufactured friction material can thermally degrade around 500°F. These are usually $20 pads. A good quality pad from a reputable manufacturer will hold up to 1000° to 1200°F or beyond. A performance racing type pad usually can get up to 1500° to 1800°F before developing fade from degradation, but it’s gold effectiveness will be very low. If you are using a good quality pad there is no reason for the holes or slots. Other then looks.

This was from TooManyToys? Great read.
 
Good thing I had it in my history...



Again guys, remember that ceramic classified friction material only refers to the reinforcement fiber that typically is potassium titanate, which compromises only a small percentage of the friction material matrix. It is an expensive fiber so in the aftermarket you can come across companies that just put a minimal amount into the matrix so they can call it ceramic for marketing purposes. Often these will still be organic or semi-metallic formulations.

Ceramic fibers have made headway in the industry to get away from the temperature sensitivity of semi-metallic formulations, so if you got good frictional delta with temperature you’ve got a semi-met. The higher the metallic, the larger the frictional delta. The other negative aspect of a true ceramic reinforced friction material is brake dust.

Disc / disc equipped vehicles do not have the old brake bias of the front brake doing a majority of the work. Well that is if the brake pad friction is balanced between front and rear, and the brake sizes are relatively equal. This is the direction the industry has gone during the last decade.

A rotor with holes drilled in was primarily designed to lessen rotational weight during events like autocross. While it has some attributes in wiping gasses from the rubbing surface of friction material, unless the rotor vanes are very well designed it does nothing for cooling. In fact without proper vane design there can be more of a thermal spread across the rotors rubbing surface then with a solid surface rotor as the air is pulled in only from the top holes and not drawing air from the inner holes or open vane section at the rotor’s hat. The other problem as mention is the loss of mass or thermal sink.

A quick sideline here is that from testing we had found that with holes or slots the friction material has to be very stiff and not compliant as compliancy will allow a thin layer of friction to be sheared off every time an edge goes past the friction material's rubbing surface as it stands proud.

During normal driving a rotor’s thermal rejection is done over a relative long time, not instantly. A brake relies on thermal mass of the rotor to absorb the energy as heat. You can do quite a few stops before the heat is no longer absorbed by the rotor mass and transferred to the air.

By drilling a rotor you are reducing the mass of the rotor’s rubbing discs, causing the remaining mass to heat up to a hotter level in a designated amount of time. Think of heating a 1” square of iron to a red-hot temperature. Drop it into a bathtub filled with water at 70°F and the water temperature does not increase that much. There’s a lot of mass. Drop the 1” cube into a cup of water at 70°F and all the water will start to boil. A small amount of mass to absorb the thermal energy. Same with rotors.

What you see in the front rotor picture of the Navigator are thermal shock stress cracks, not crack progression from stress risers when the rotors were bored. The surface is getting very hot in a short amount of time.

There are a couple of contributors that could be occurring here as the Navigator is not known for rotor cracking like the ‘90’s F-250/350 were as the front / rear brake balance of the Navigator is good. One is the loss of mass as mentioned. The metallurgy of the gray cast iron used for these particular rotors may not be up to the level that it should be. The friction material compound (the thermal friction characteristics mentioned tell me this is a semi-met in ceramic clothing) is too hard and not compliant causing thermal banding hot rings. Or the friction material used on the front axle is not matched to what is used on the rear axle shifting more brake bias to the front brakes. After all, the Nav is not a lightweight vehicle so improper frictional balance shifts a larger load.

The use of some means to remove gasses from thermally stressed friction material (holes or slots) is only needed when a friction material is exceeding it’s thermal limitations. Or you like the look. A poorly compounded or manufactured friction material can thermally degrade around 500°F. These are usually $20 pads. A good quality pad from a reputable manufacturer will hold up to 1000° to 1200°F or beyond. A performance racing type pad usually can get up to 1500° to 1800°F before developing fade from degradation, but it’s gold effectiveness will be very low. If you are using a good quality pad there is no reason for the holes or slots. Other then looks.

I disagree with just about all of it.... :p
 
Brake Motive

I to have these brakes on my 2005 LS and they have served me well with no broblems and i am an agressive driver,they have been on my LS for about six months +1.
 
Very interesting stuff, but you're right, the holes and slots wont affect us daily drivers too much. I also have to think that they have some use when driving through mud and other stuff.. maybe not, but the idea of self cleaning I like as well... or maybe its just all in my head. :D

Either way, new rotors for much less than factory. I wont be using the Powerstop Evolution pads upon replacement for either vehicle.

Also I took a look at the Navigator, and only one wheel (the one I took the photo of) has those fractures. I believe it may be a faulty pad on that wheel.
 
Rotorpro also comes with Stoptech stainless lines. Can't remember if it's just the front lines for the gen 2 though.

Comes with all 4 lines.

I noticed a difference when I got the full package. I don't know if it was the lines or brakes or all together but the brakes feel better. I still occasionally use them too much and get brake fade.
 
good lesson, to bad no one will read that and apply it, mainly because for people with daily drivers it doesn't matter to them. Frankly it's interesting to learn about, but it will be ignored. which is fine most people learn by making their own mistakes and experiments.
There are ppl on this board that are into more serious things, and having info like this will help. So it's not for nothing. But for those of us that just drive to work, don't race, and don't hit the track, this is a bit over kill. If my brakes develop problems I'll just replace them. Although I don't use them, its no different than ppl that buy cheap tires for a car. (the best brakes in the world mean nothing without tires that grip)

I disagree with just about all of it.... :p
LOL
 
And we're overlooking one factor... how good they look vs stock... In the world of customizing, It will always be a game of form vs function, whats being gained vs whats lost. I'll trade a small percentage of braking ability to replace the look of our stock rotors...

you will see why when my niche's go back on... I have days of space behind these rims.
 
And we're overlooking one factor... how good they look vs stock... In the world of customizing, It will always be a game of form vs function, whats being gained vs whats lost. I'll trade a small percentage of braking ability to replace the look of our stock rotors...

you will see why when my niche's go back on... I have days of space behind these rims.

Ordered mine monday morning, says it will be here Wednesday... Awesome processing!!!

Sweet! hopefully ill be able to get them on by the end of the end of the week then. And i agree with you about the looks...

i guess i should admit, that my reasoning for getting these are two-fold. One to save my mom some money while still meeting her driving needs...and 2 i hear i may be getting the Mounty at some point, and im graduating the 21st so who knows! :D
 
LOL... true..very cool

My soon to be graduates this weekend with her MBA...
 
Answer: No slotted ONLY rotors from BrakeMotive through eBay...

I contacted them through ebay. The exchange follows:

Dear brakemotive76,

We're discussing these brakes on the following forum: http://bit.ly/IVoFk3

Many members are on the fence about if they should buy drilled rotors or not. Do you offer the same rotors I purchased in a slotted only pattern? If so, how do we order them? This will be my 3rd set I have purchased from BrakeMotive, and I've referred a few other frieds. We have loved the brakes. However, there are concerns about minor stress fractures on the brakes I purchased for my Navigator a couple of years ago. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

Thanks,
Elemino


Dear elemino,

Hello,
On eBay, we only sell drilled and slotted rotors, like the ones you have already purchased. But, as you saw farther down that forum thread, we are also on other forums, where our forum group does offer different options than we do. Since this message is on eBay, I cannot refer you over to any of our forums to look, so you would have to locate it on your own. I did look at the pictures from your Navigator, and those look like they are developing stress fractures, but they are not yet at the point where you would need to replace those rotors. Once the cracks reach the edge of the rotor, or go all the way through the rotor, then it would have to be replaced. As they are right now though, I wouldn't be too concerned yet. I'd just check them when I changed the oil to make sure they didn't get any worse.
Thank You,
Brakemotive
877-477-9320

:::a0Kd0000001zGVUEA2:::

- brakemotive76
 
nice ones,

i also bought and installed ebay drilled rotors + ceramic pads for about the same price a few months ago

i've had the same type of brakes on my last car and also got em on 2 of my friend's cars.

good brakes for the price, but the zync coating wont last
i clear coated /baked mines for the LS with caliper clear coat to rustproof it.
id highly recommend you do so too, just make sure to sand down the contact surface unlike me... haha
no rust after 2-3 months of snow/rain

i like the look with the slots, wish id gotten those instead, but i cheaped out for a few bucks hahaha
 
nice ones,

i also bought and installed ebay drilled rotors + ceramic pads for about the same price a few months ago

i've had the same type of brakes on my last car and also got em on 2 of my friend's cars.

good brakes for the price, but the zync coating wont last
i clear coated /baked mines for the LS with caliper clear coat to rustproof it.
id highly recommend you do so too, just make sure to sand down the contact surface unlike me... haha
no rust after 2-3 months of snow/rain

i like the look with the slots, wish id gotten those instead, but i cheaped out for a few bucks hahaha

interesting,

Are you saying you in effect clear coated the outer edges, slots and holes???
anyone see any issue doing this?

More details please
 
I'm actually more curious why you guys are so concerned with rust? Is it purely cosmetic?

I always use new projects to justify buying new tools. So here's my list (so far).

Tool List:

1. Caliper Twist Tool
2. Torque Wrench - I need the specs for torque on these lugs. I want to do this right.
3. Breaker Bar - Since I don't have a lug wrench that fits the LS, I'd rather use my deep sockets and a Breaker Bar instead of buying a proprietary lug wrench. Anyone know of any issues with doing it this way?
 
I'm actually more curious why you guys are so concerned with rust? Is it purely cosmetic?

Yes, mine interest is cosmetic.. My rotors are more visible than most though

picture.php
 
I'm guessing it would have to be brake caliper clear coat... but even so, the rotors get much hotter, and I would assume it will eventually burn it off just like the plating on my front rotors.
 
i would agree. thats why im interested in Ultrastars method / products used.....
 

Members online

No members online now.
Back
Top