What did you do to your LS today?

[Telco]

Why does everyone feel the need to blame the engineer for the substandard quality of a part. Do you blame Ford for the crappy tires a dealer put on a car? Do you blame the grocery store for the poorly made toothbrush? A manufacturer has only so much control over its suppliers and unless there is a much higher than normal failure rate, usually doesn't know there is a problem. Ford wasn't slow to fix the window regulator problem once they discovered the substandard piece. IIRC, it took 3 revisions to fix the problem.

As to the cooling parts, don't forget that manufacturers are looking t save every gram of weight they can. Would you rather have gummint mandated safety features or metal cooling pieces? And yes, that is one of their options. Saving weight is EVERYTHING!!!!! Like Joe said, these cars are inexpensive enough that someone who would never be able to afford it new can now get it second or third or fourth hand. It's still a luxury car. How handy that can afford an LS can get a comparable Benz? Or BMW ? Or Audi? Or even Cadillac?

I had typed up a long response just to lose it when I hit post. Long and short of it is, yes. The blame lays at the feet of the engineers who designed this car. Part of an engineer's job is quality control, both of in-house manufacture and third party suppliers. In fact, Ford has a whole quality control department, made up of engineers. It's heinous that Ford would charge this much for a car with problems not found in a car at half its price, especially when we're talking about something like the plastic used in cooling systems or ignition coils which every single gasoline-powered car has been using for over 100 years.

 

[chris2523]

I had typed up a long response just to lose it when I hit post. Long and short of it is, yes. The blame lays at the feet of the engineers who designed this car. Part of an engineer's job is quality control, both of in-house manufacture and third party suppliers. In fact, Ford has a whole quality control department, made up of engineers. It's heinous that Ford would charge this much for a car with problems not found in a car at half its price, especially when we're talking about something like the plastic used in cooling systems or ignition coils which every single gasoline-powered car has been using for over 100 years.

so, just how much say do the engineers that designed the car have in quality control of third party suppliers after the car goes into production?? it can't be much. especially with the money hungry accounts squeezing everyone to the lowest dollar amount possible.

 

[Murdered_LS8]

I had typed up a long response just to lose it when I hit post. Long and short of it is, yes. The blame lays at the feet of the engineers who designed this car. Part of an engineer's job is quality control, both of in-house manufacture and third party suppliers. In fact, Ford has a whole quality control department, made up of engineers. It's heinous that Ford would charge this much for a car with problems not found in a car at half its price, especially when we're talking about something like the plastic used in cooling systems or ignition coils which every single gasoline-powered car has been using for over 100 years.

Holy hell, preach on brother!!

 

[LS4me]

I had typed up a long response just to lose it when I hit post. Long and short of it is, yes. The blame lays at the feet of the engineers who designed this car. Part of an engineer's job is quality control, both of in-house manufacture and third party suppliers. In fact, Ford has a whole quality control department, made up of engineers. It's heinous that Ford would charge this much for a car with problems not found in a car at half its price, especially when we're talking about something like the plastic used in cooling systems or ignition coils which every single gasoline-powered car has been using for over 100 years.

Ford sends the specs to the supplier and they fabricate the parts. In 1998 the hydraulic fan was a stroke of genius. A fan that would spin as long as the engine was turning, who woulda thunk?! Ford has no idea that the suppliers are producing well engineered parts with substandard materials until they fail. The supplier will have to warranty the part to Ford leaving the buyer as the angry guinea pig. The window regulators are a prime example. The Germans have been using that design for years with no problems. Ford uses a plastic part where a metal one should (in hindsight; which is 20/20 after all) have been used as plastics have come a very long way and they are trying to save weight anywhere they can. That turned out to be a bad move and the 3rd time they finally called for a metal piece.

The coils, again, had manufacturing problems. Apparently the epoxy used (by a 2nd or 3rd party) wasn't up to snuff.

I don't know any engineer that is responsible for being responsible that their designed part is manufactured to their specs. The quality control engineers are not the design engineers. There was a problem with a needle valve in the valve body of some '03 transmissions. There was nothing wrong with the design at all. The engineers couldn't figure out what was wrong until they took a look at the small bits under a microscope. They found a very small burr on the end of the valve that was causing the valve to stick. It was difficult to even feel this burr, it was that minute. Once they found this problem they were able to find the machine that was not filing the valve correctly. Like I've said before, I have had the opportunity to talk to some of the engineers and let them explain their restrictions and how they achieved what they did. No corners were cut and the LS when sold new never really covered the manufacturing costs. It got worse as the economy tanked.....

Perspective..... The LS is a 16+ year old design. A LOT has changed in almost 20 years!!!!! Remember when ABS was only available on the most expensive cars? Do you know origins of ABS?? Any automotive engineers here?? Not fabricators or shade tree engineers; people that make their living designing automobile parts.

 

[Murdered_LS8]

Ford sends the specs to the supplier and they fabricate the parts. In 1998 the hydraulic fan was a stroke of genius. A fan that would spin as long as the engine was turning, who woulda thunk?! Ford has no idea that the suppliers are producing well engineered parts with substandard materials until they fail. The supplier will have to warranty the part to Ford leaving the buyer as the angry guinea pig. The window regulators are a prime example. The Germans have been using that design for years with no problems. Ford uses a plastic part where a metal one should (in hindsight; which is 20/20 after all) have been used as plastics have come a very long way and they are trying to save weight anywhere they can. That turned out to be a bad move and the 3rd time they finally called for a metal piece.

The coils, again, had manufacturing problems. Apparently the epoxy used (by a 2nd or 3rd party) wasn't up to snuff.

I don't know any engineer that is responsible for being responsible that their designed part is manufactured to their specs. The quality control engineers are not the design engineers. There was a problem with a needle valve in the valve body of some '03 transmissions. There was nothing wrong with the design at all. The engineers couldn't figure out what was wrong until they took a look at the small bits under a microscope. They found a very small burr on the end of the valve that was causing the valve to stick. It was difficult to even feel this burr, it was that minute. Once they found this problem they were able to find the machine that was not filing the valve correctly. Like I've said before, I have had the opportunity to talk to some of the engineers and let them explain their restrictions and how they achieved what they did. No corners were cut and the LS when sold new never really covered the manufacturing costs. It got worse as the economy tanked.....

Perspective..... The LS is a 16+ year old design. A LOT has changed in almost 20 years!!!!! Remember when ABS was only available on the most expensive cars? Do you know origins of ABS?? Any automotive engineers here?? Not fabricators or shade tree engineers; people that make their living designing automobile parts.

I see your point, but saving weight shouldn't have been a factor when building an LS, which I presume stands for Luxury Sport, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just tossing a different view on it. Its a Lincoln, they shouldn't have built them as cheap as say a comparative 20k car of the same year.

 

[LS4me]

I see your point, but saving weight shouldn't have been a factor when building an LS, which I presume stands for Luxury Sport, correct me if I'm wrong, I'm just tossing a different view on it. Its a Lincoln, they shouldn't have built them as cheap as say a comparative 20k car of the same year.

Actually, LS doesn't stand for anything, at least according to Jim Rodgers, VP of Marketing at the time. It was supposed to be LS6 and LS8 but there was an issue with Toyota and the Lexus LS400 as Ford had made a stink about Toyota naming their truck the T100. The resolution was to just call it LS.

Trust me, new buyers were NOT interested in paying the gas-guzzler tax (me included!!!). That's the sole reason 1st gens start in 2nd gear in SST mode. That particular test wasn't required for the 2nd gens so Lincoln was able to utilize a 1st gear SST start. The subs and enclosure were de-contented in '01 or '02 (I can't remember) to save the weight. Same with the full size spare. It's all about getting around the stupid gummint regs to make the car affordable. Weight is a HUGE issue when you're trying to eek out every fraction of an MPG you can! CAFE plays a HUGE part in a vehicles weight.

No $20K car of the era had as an aluminum extensive suspension as the LS. Any idea who was responsible for the LS suspension? Some guy named Jonathan Crocker who just happened to design suspensions for a little known F1 driver named Michael Schumacher. When I bought my first LS my dealer told me they would have to raise the price at least 10% if they were going to make any money on the car. Were it not for the incentives and hold-backs the LS would have cost the dealers money to stock.

 

[lincolnelite]

Ford sends the specs to the supplier and they fabricate the parts. In 1998 the hydraulic fan was a stroke of genius. A fan that would spin as long as the engine was turning, who woulda thunk?! Ford has no idea that the suppliers are producing well engineered parts with substandard materials until they fail. The supplier will have to warranty the part to Ford leaving the buyer as the angry guinea pig. The window regulators are a prime example. The Germans have been using that design for years with no problems. Ford uses a plastic part where a metal one should (in hindsight; which is 20/20 after all) have been used as plastics have come a very long way and they are trying to save weight anywhere they can. That turned out to be a bad move and the 3rd time they finally called for a metal piece.

The coils, again, had manufacturing problems. Apparently the epoxy used (by a 2nd or 3rd party) wasn't up to snuff.

I don't know any engineer that is responsible for being responsible that their designed part is manufactured to their specs. The quality control engineers are not the design engineers. There was a problem with a needle valve in the valve body of some '03 transmissions. There was nothing wrong with the design at all. The engineers couldn't figure out what was wrong until they took a look at the small bits under a microscope. They found a very small burr on the end of the valve that was causing the valve to stick. It was difficult to even feel this burr, it was that minute. Once they found this problem they were able to find the machine that was not filing the valve correctly. Like I've said before, I have had the opportunity to talk to some of the engineers and let them explain their restrictions and how they achieved what they did. No corners were cut and the LS when sold new never really covered the manufacturing costs. It got worse as the economy tanked.....

Perspective..... The LS is a 16+ year old design. A LOT has changed in almost 20 years!!!!! Remember when ABS was only available on the most expensive cars? Do you know origins of ABS?? Any automotive engineers here?? Not fabricators or shade tree engineers; people that make their living designing automobile parts.

Sounds like excuses to me, it's Ford's responsibility to make sure that its suppliers are up to par with their standards (or lack thereof) because it will kill their brand reputation.

If the LS was really a successful product it could have gone into the next iteration and not killed. Just take a look at the explorer, it has lots of issues with the 2002 redesign yet it still lives. The mustang is another example, it's not a perfect car but it has demand and aftermarket support for it. It's not the economy or marketing, it's just that there's no demand for it because of the quality issues (actually this car guzzles more gas than my explorer/mountaineer). It was not worth buying it new when the reliability is questionable.

 

[LS4me]

Sounds like excuses to me, it's Ford's responsibility to make sure that its suppliers are up to par with their standards (or lack thereof) because it will kill their brand reputation.

If the LS was really a successful product it could have gone into the next iteration and not killed. Just take a look at the explorer, it has lots of issues with the 2002 redesign yet it still lives. The mustang is another example, it's not a perfect car but it has demand and aftermarket support for it. It's not the economy or marketing, it's just that there's no demand for it because of the quality issues (actually this car guzzles more gas than my explorer/mountaineer). It was not worth buying it new when the reliability is questionable.

Correct; it IS Ford's responsibility to make sure their suppliers produce quality parts. They don't know they aren't until the failures happen. That's why EVERY car produced has running changes and upgrades.

I didn't know you were in on the writing of the Gas-Guzzler legislation. It doesn't apply to trucks, like ALL truck-based SUVs.

The failure of the LS had NOTHING to do with perceived quality. You can't compare an entry level luxury sedan with a Mustang or SUV; that's just silly (BTW, the Probe was supposed to replace the Mustang around 1989).COMPLETLY different demographics. The LS WAS updated and improved in 2003. The failure of the LS rests squarely on the shoulders of Jack Nasser and the Lincoln dealers. The LS was slated for European sales but Nasser killed that. The dealers tried selling the LS to blue-hairs as a mini Continental, not as the American BMW that it was. They also didn't advertise it. In 2003 the LS beat the BMW 540i in every test save one. The LS, with all its aluminum ( not just the suspension) was very expensive to produce; too expensive for a "mini Continental". Having the benefit of the VP of Marketing's ear I learned a LOT about why the LS was left to die oh the vine; and the reasons are very complex Most dealers STILL don't know what the LS was/is.

 

[waggs]

I just wish they still made them.
Of course with the issues corrected

 

[lsemex04]

^^ :hump:

 

[waggs]

Hump?

 

[Murdered_LS8]

Giggity

 

[Telco]

There's no use arguing this anymore. Sorry, but there's no talking sense to hero worship so I'm going to try to not comment on the glaring engineering failures on this car. Enjoy...

 

[NickT88LSC]

Ford sends the specs to the supplier and they fabricate the parts. In 1998 the hydraulic fan was a stroke of genius. A fan that would spin as long as the engine was turning, who woulda thunk?! Ford has no idea that the suppliers are producing well engineered parts with substandard materials until they fail. The supplier will have to warranty the part to Ford leaving the buyer as the angry guinea pig. The window regulators are a prime example. The Germans have been using that design for years with no problems. Ford uses a plastic part where a metal one should (in hindsight; which is 20/20 after all) have been used as plastics have come a very long way and they are trying to save weight anywhere they can. That turned out to be a bad move and the 3rd time they finally called for a metal piece.

The coils, again, had manufacturing problems. Apparently the epoxy used (by a 2nd or 3rd party) wasn't up to snuff.

I don't know any engineer that is responsible for being responsible that their designed part is manufactured to their specs. The quality control engineers are not the design engineers. There was a problem with a needle valve in the valve body of some '03 transmissions. There was nothing wrong with the design at all. The engineers couldn't figure out what was wrong until they took a look at the small bits under a microscope. They found a very small burr on the end of the valve that was causing the valve to stick. It was difficult to even feel this burr, it was that minute. Once they found this problem they were able to find the machine that was not filing the valve correctly. Like I've said before, I have had the opportunity to talk to some of the engineers and let them explain their restrictions and how they achieved what they did. No corners were cut and the LS when sold new never really covered the manufacturing costs. It got worse as the economy tanked.....

Perspective..... The LS is a 16+ year old design. A LOT has changed in almost 20 years!!!!! Remember when ABS was only available on the most expensive cars? Do you know origins of ABS?? Any automotive engineers here?? Not fabricators or shade tree engineers; people that make their living designing automobile parts.

I have to comment on a couple of things I just read; Germans and window regulators without problems??, I guess you did not work for VW or Audi, plenty of failed regulators there. Also with the coils, plenty of Manufacturers have had coil failures, again I will point to Audi and VW since I did work for them and experience very high failure rates of those items.
All manufacturers I have worked for had had what I call hereditary issues, worked for Volvo, Ford/Lincoln/Mercury, Mazda, Subaru, VW, Audi, Acura,. When you finally get out of your LS and into another manufacturer I am sure you will find out what their hereditary problems are. It is a car, a machine and it will break, your maintenance and driving habits may dictate how much breakdowns you experience. I can not complain one bit so far with my first Gen LS that is supposed to be sooo terrible. 120,000 miles and only normal items to me.

 

[LS4me]

There's no use arguing this anymore. Sorry, but there's no talking sense to hero worship so I'm going to try to not comment on the glaring engineering failures on this car. Enjoy...

Not hero worship. Just don't know of any glaring engineering failures. I would like to know how long you've been an engineer for any auto maker and which discipline your engineering degree is in.

 

[Upstairs Chris]

What did I do today?


I drove it in 8 degree weather. Then got stuck in a covered parking space.

#loweredV8rwdproblems

 

[2005_LS_V8]

Stuck in the snow today on the way home from work. Discovered these nice Firestone tires (Potenza Pole Position) grip the ice just enough that you can get up a hill. Unfortunately, had to park it in front of a house in a subdivision on the way home. There were miles of cars backed up and I couldn't take sitting anymore. I walked home in the snow, with my dress shoes and thin socks. Luckily I had my wool coat. I borrowed a wool cap from a lady outside pouring salt on her driveway. I'd have to look it up, but I think it was about a 5 mile walk. I'll have to finagle a ride to fetch it tomorrow.

All these idiots with bald tires trying to go up hills with the tires doing nothing but spinning were the problem. They couldn't just pull to the side and let everyone else go. Most kept at it until some local would help push them along their way. And then the next car would get stuck. Now everything is ice so I have no idea how those people still out there plan to get home. It was hard not to notice how giving and helpful a few people were and how guarded and suspicious the rest were.

 

[LS4me]

What did I do today?


I drove it in 8 degree weather. Then got stuck in a covered parking space.

#loweredV8rwdproblems

Stuck in the snow today on the way home from work. Discovered these nice Firestone tires (Potenza Pole Position) grip the ice just enough that you can get up a hill. Unfortunately, had to park it in front of a house in a subdivision on the way home. There were miles of cars backed up and I couldn't take sitting anymore. I walked home in the snow, with my dress shoes and thin socks. Luckily I had my wool coat. I borrowed a wool cap from a lady outside pouring salt on her driveway. I'd have to look it up, but I think it was about a 5 mile walk. I'll have to finagle a ride to fetch it tomorrow.

All these idiots with bald tires trying to go up hills with the tires doing nothing but spinning were the problem. They couldn't just pull to the side and let everyone else go. Most kept at it until some local would help push them along their way. And then the next car would get stuck. Now everything is ice so I have no idea how those people still out there plan to get home. It was hard not to notice how giving and helpful a few people were and how guarded and suspicious the rest were.

Hmmmmm..... 75º today and 78º tomorrow. No rain in the last 30 some days!!!!

 

[Upstairs Chris]

I lived in LA for a year, I know how it is.

 

[RigsLS]

... Airbag light goes off ... Looked under the driver seat, yep the famous yellow connector issue. Cut off the connector and butt joined the wires, Airbag light disappears.

Just did that a few months ago when she was about ready to go into storage this came up on mine,
same thing under seat connector, prepared & soldered wires ... done ... error gone!

 

[LS4me]

I lived in LA for a year, I know how it is.

It took a whole YEAR????

 

[jjcool00]

Off-topic - I'm thinking about relocating to Cali in the near future, wifey has a hard-on for LA. Should I stay away from LA?

 

[LS4me]

Off-topic - I'm thinking about relocating to Cali in the near future, wifey has a hard-on for LA. Should I stay away from LA?

Depends..... Do you like heavy traffic all the time? Do you like high gas, electric, college, water, real estate prices and tax bills? Do you speak Spanish/Mexican fluently? Are you OK with large areas where you definitely DON'T want to go, or accidentally wind up? Do you want to live in a bankrupt state? How 'bout having a Governor not-so-affectionately nicknamed Moon Beam? I don't care about the weather, I would leave here in a nano second were I not tied here due to my mother in law (wifey WON'T move)!

 

[RigsLS]

Off-topic - I'm thinking about relocating to Cali in the near future, wifey has a hard-on for LA. Should I stay away from LA?

Your wife has a what !?!?!?

 

[Telco]

Not hero worship. Just don't know of any glaring engineering failures. I would like to know how long you've been an engineer for any auto maker and which discipline your engineering degree is in.

There you go again, equating a sheepskin with skill. They don't mean the same thing, you know. But if you must know, my training is more in the telecommunications field. Ever wonder who actually talks to communications spacecraft (and I do mean actually control the spacecraft) or runs those fiber optic networks? That would be me, long before I ever sat foot on a college campus. I'm not a real automotive engineer but I play one on TV.