03+ LS in Tampa? Don't race a Stang again

[ILLS]

Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords actually did a Non-PI build-up running a centrifigal super and worked non-PI heads that put down around 600 RWHP.

2V-PI engines are capible, if built correctly of numbers near 800HP and still semi street-able.

Yep, there are turbocharged 2v's pushing past 900rwhp and possibly onto 1,000+, though VERY few as of now (look for travers a customer of Steen Racing). There have already been centrifugally supercharged ones pushing damn near 800rwhp (maybe above by now). Kenne Bell and Whipple supercharged 2v's have easily surpassed 600rwhp and are quite common within the Mustang world. Now by "common" I do not mean that everyone has one, but they are not shrouded in any kind of mystery. Some off those KB supercharged ones has topped well over 700rwhp with a small shot of nitrous. I myself will be shooting for well over 600rwhp on the Kenne Bell next season and 700+ with a small shot of nitrous if I do not end up swapping to a pair of turbo's first. If I do the turbos then I will shoot for 800+ rwhp. All these numbers mentioned are of course with FULL supporting mods such as worked heads, cams, built bottom ends, big fuel systems yadda yadda yadda.

And yes I can personally vouch for making this kind of power as being extremely extremely expensive. Take the amount of cash I dropped into my fuel system (for parts alone) and multiply it by 2 and you damn near have as much as I am doing the turbo system on my LS for. Not cheap.

 

[99 KOBRA]

I'm going to make one final observation and post. Who would buy a Mustang for a road course car anyway? Mustangs have solid axles and are best for drag racing. There are numerous other cars that are much better suited to a road course. I bet even a stock SVT Focus would push that Mustang in a serious course. A heavily modded SVT Focus would most definitely smoke a Mustang in the turns. Also, you say you tracked your Mustang but you hate drag racing. Does that mean you only tracked it on turns or have you actually run your Mustang in a quarter mile? That would be drag racing so you are contradicting yourself if you have. What is your E.T.?

You don't know much about road racing, do you?

 

[NaplesBill]

You don't know much about road racing, do you?

I know enough to know there are better choices than a Mustang. I realize the Cobras are better but there are still much better options. If the power options were there, I'd say even the LS would be better considering it's 50/50 weight balance. I am also certain that an SVT Focus with a good turbo setup would cost less and outperform the vast majority of Mustangs out there. This is assuming he means a true road coarse not just an oval track. I own an '06 Mustang GT and I do love Mustangs, but I just don't see them as the best choice for road racing unless you have major money/sponsorship. For the average Joe with limited funds, there are many choices that are better for less money. I have the Mustang because I like the muscle car attitude it has. I do not think it's the greatest sports car I just think it's the most appealing and good bang for the buck. If you are referring to street racing, I have nothing to do with that.

 

[whatsupadrian]

I know enough to know there are better choices than a Mustang. I realize the Cobras are better but there are still much better options. If the power options were there, I'd say even the LS would be better considering it's 50/50 weight balance. I am also certain that an SVT Focus with a good turbo setup would cost less and outperform the vast majority of Mustangs out there. This is assuming he means a true road coarse not just an oval track. I own an '06 Mustang GT and I do love Mustangs, but I just don't see them as the best choice for road racing unless you have major money/sponsorship. For the average Joe with limited funds, there are many choices that are better for less money. I have the Mustang because I like the muscle car attitude it has. I do not think it's the greatest sports car I just think it's the most appealing and good bang for the buck. If you are referring to street racing, I have nothing to do with that.

sadly you know nothing about Road Racing. Mustangs are a Great application to road race because of the FR set up, Lots of power, and they are Cheap....Cant beat Cheap FR Power

FYI, The FR500 Mustang has been beating the heck out of everything in SCCA and Factory racing.

Mustangs have been road racers for Years. Out of all the Pony car throughtout the years, the mustang has been the lightest...lighter than the camaro and any mopar. Shelby Mustangs Dominated over corvettes in the 60's.

Sorry, but FF sucks for Road racing....Plus if you go turbo on a FF you get Torque steer up the ass and Understeer like a Pig....I call it the SRT4 Syndrome.

.....If i was gonna choose an FF for raod racing it wouldnt be a SVT focus...it would be an Integra Type R.... The Integra Type R is the best FWD handling car EVER. The car is so well balanced and the B18 in the Type R had an amazing power band for the car.

...but even though the Integra Type R is the best FWD car Ever..i would still choose a Mustang because of the FR set up

 

[NaplesBill]

What type of courses are you talking about anyway? As far as the SVT Focus goes, it can easily outhandle an Integra Type R. I can understand if you don't like the Focus but the SVT Focus handling is amazing for a car that cost less than 20k new. There's a reason the Focus is in WRC. But nothing I say here will make you see beyond what you want to see. Of course you can make a Mustang handle but it's relatively expensive. I just don't see it being worth it unless you are racing professionally and have some sort of sponsorship. To each their own. Who am I to say what a person spends on their hobbies. I have no room to talk believe me.

Honestly, I think I misunderstand what you mean by road course. I'm thinking of rally type cars when I think of a road course. I think you're talking about Grand Am type cars and racing right? I am not claiming to be an expert, only stating things I've been led to believe. If you can enlighten me then by all means please do.

I think if you have plenty of long stretches a Mustang would smoke just about any Focus, but if you have a lot of short stretches with tight turns, I honestly believe the SVT Focus would be the better vehicle. Especially if you want to include mods. Overall, I think the Mustang is the better car, but we were talking specifically about handling. I really don't think handling is the Mustangs strongest suit without major investments into aftermarket upgrades. Also, remember that a Focus is somewhere around 2600lbs so it plays into your lighter is better theory. Also consider that the Focus shape itself lends to structural strength that would aid handling.

With all that said, I definitely prefer RWD vehicles. In something as small as a Focus I really don't think it matters much. Once you move up to something like a Mustang, I much prefer the driving dynamics of a RWD vehicle.

Well, I think this has gone WAY off-topic. LOL

 

[99 KOBRA]

By road racing we are referring to Laguna Seca, Willow Springs, Sears Point (Infineon), Lime Rock, Road Atlanta, Sebring, Le Mans, etc.

 

[ILLS]

sadly you know nothing about Road Racing. Mustangs are a Great application to road race because of the FR set up, Lots of power, and they are Cheap....Cant beat Cheap FR Power

And whats the FR500 go for???

"While you can buy the engine all by itself, a mere $110,005 more gets you the whole "turnkey ready to run steed" (we didn't write it)."

Yeah, not as "cheap" as you lead to believe.









NaplesBill I kind of have to disagree with you here. Yes in stock form there are other vehicles that are better suited to RR'ing than Mustang's. However, when do people ever leave their cars stock when doing allot of RR'ing or dragracing? It really comes down to preference in what tool you want to use to get the job done. Some people prefer to sport a Ford, others a Chevy and so on. In stock form a Gen2 LS would probably hurt a 2001 Cobra's feelings on the road course but it would get equally crushed by the Cobra in a dragrace. LS's aren't meant in any way for dragracing but yet they are moddable for it if the right approach is taken. The whole arguement of LS vs Mustang for a road race car boils down to preferences, pure and simple. Ability in stock form is sometimes taken into account but that is what modded suspensions are for. To each his own on this one.

 

[99 KOBRA]

And whats the FR500 go for???



Yeah, not as "cheap" as you lead to believe.









NaplesBill I kind of have to disagree with you here. Yes in stock form there are other vehicles that are better suited to RR'ing than Mustang's. However, when do people ever leave their cars stock when doing allot of RR'ing or dragracing? It really comes down to preference in what tool you want to use to get the job done. Some people prefer to sport a Ford, others a Chevy and so on. In stock form a Gen2 LS would probably hurt a 2001 Cobra's feelings on the road course but it would get equally crushed by the Cobra in a dragrace. LS's aren't meant in any way for dragracing but yet they are moddable for it if the right approach is taken. The whole arguement of LS vs Mustang for a road race car boils down to preferences, pure and simple. Ability in stock form is sometimes taken into account but that is what modded suspensions are for. To each his own on this one.

A 2001 SVT Cobra is pretty much identical mechanically to a 1999 SVT Cobra. I had a 1999 SVT Cobra and my wife currently has a 2004 LS V8 Sport. There is no way in hell that I could beat or even equal the lap time of a 1999 or 2001 SVT Cobra with a LS at any road course. Are you guys aware that the 1999 and 2001 SVT Cobras go 0 to 60 in about 5.5 and do the 1/4 mile in about 13.8. You guys need to get off of the crack pipe if you think stock against stock a LS can give the Cobra a race!!!!! And I'm talking about road racing or drag racing.

 

[FastNsmoothLS]

well, that's the problem. That some people here think that the LS, I don't care how modded, will actually take on the lesser, cheaper Mustang. Even then, the pre-03/04 Cobra is not as fast/quick as the Termi, still a great handler. As good as the LS handles, when it straightens out, it's a dog that can't pull it's own weight. I pretty much had it with this. It went completely off topic, BUT... I have to admit that for a non-LS related thread, this one will make it to the books.

 

[02LSE96LSC91SE84TC]

A 2001 SVT Cobra is pretty much identical mechanically to a 1999 SVT Cobra. I had a 1999 SVT Cobra and my wife currently has a 2004 LS V8 Sport. There is no way in hell that I could beat or even equal the lap time of a 1999 or 2001 SVT Cobra with a LS at any road course. Are you guys aware that the 1999 and 2001 SVT Cobras go 0 to 60 in about 5.5 and do the 1/4 mile in about 13.8. You guys need to get off of the crack pipe if you think stock against stock a LS can give the Cobra a race!!!!! And I'm talking about road racing or drag racing.

Well ILLS ran 14.2 with his 05 LS which should be only a few tenths off the 0-60 of 5.5. Almost stock, I know not completely stock but we're not talking running away so in a race with turns a 1/2 sec isn't meaning much.

The point while its less powerful its quite a good handler and I guess how close the turns are, length of the straights....

This started out stupid anyway, the original poster was braggin about nothin to brag about.

Me and ILLS smoking the crack...yeah thats us. Can I borrow a dollar?

 

[02LSE96LSC91SE84TC]

It went completely off topic, BUT... I have to admit that for a non-LS related thread, this one will make it to the books.

Isn't that why you come back here to post?

 

[FastNsmoothLS]

Well ILLS ran 14.2 with his 05 LS which should be only a few tenths off the 0-60 of 5.5. Almost stock, I know not completely stock but we're not talking running away so in a race with turns a 1/2 sec isn't meaning much.

The point while its less powerful its quite a good handler and I guess how close the turns are, length of the straights....

This started out stupid anyway, the original poster was braggin about nothin to brag about.

Me and ILLS smoking the crack...yeah thats us. Can I borrow a dollar?

Nothing to brag about... Just putting a stupid kid who drives an LS in its place. That was all. But yes, it really was something stupid. I shouldn't be racing on the streets anyways, so I just lowered my self to the same stupid level.

 

[FastNsmoothLS]

Isn't that why you come back here to post?

Nope. Like I said, it just Pissed me off that I got the usual young kid attitude driving an LS like the king of the road. That was all, it really came across the wrong way, that's how I made it look. Like I was happy I beat an LS when I know that I beat them any day and I don't brag about it everyday. It was just a one time deal.

 

[FastNsmoothLS]

+1

FastNsmoothLS - Really?.... Wetback??? Come on now. I'm mexican. Calling a hispanic "wetback" is like calling a white person "Saltine". Or a black person the "N" word. It's just not cool.

I can't believe this thread is still going on.

All this Tech Talk!!!! WHO IS RIGHT? WHO IS FULL OF CRAP???

I'm really sorry about that comment. The twist is that I'm also Hispanic. Maybe that's why I felt with more sense to type that. It was uncalled for and immature.

 

[02LSE96LSC91SE84TC]

Nothing to brag about... Just putting a stupid kid who drives an LS in its place. That was all. But yes, it really was something stupid. I shouldn't be racing on the streets anyways, so I just lowered my self to the same stupid level.

Not all of us are kids and somehow I bet the next time you'll do the same.

 

[FastNsmoothLS]

Not all of us are kids and somehow I bet the next time you'll do the same.

Nah. Not worth it.

 

[02LSE96LSC91SE84TC]

Nope. Like I said, it just Pissed me off that I got the usual young kid attitude driving an LS like the king of the road. That was all, it really came across the wrong way, that's how I made it look. Like I was happy I beat an LS when I know that I beat them any day and I don't brag about it everyday. It was just a one time deal.

This sounds like you..at least now your agreeing you came off this way.

Look I'm the first to say what the LS ain't going to beat and always call BS when someone lists a unrealistic kill list.

Having the fastest N/A Gen1, I know what it'll do.

 

[02LSE96LSC91SE84TC]

I'm really sorry about that comment. The twist is that I'm also Hispanic. Maybe that's why I felt with more sense to type that. It was uncalled for and immature.

Glad you apologized for that crap.

 

[FastNsmoothLS]

Nothing feels better than recognizing a mistake and apologizing. Now I can sleep. I mean it. I don't know Adrian or anyone here, except a couple, and it's not right to act the way I did. I'm a grown man with children and I know better... and I know I didn't act like it. Good night.

 

[ILLS]

A 2001 SVT Cobra is pretty much identical mechanically to a 1999 SVT Cobra. I had a 1999 SVT Cobra and my wife currently has a 2004 LS V8 Sport. There is no way in hell that I could beat or even equal the lap time of a 1999 or 2001 SVT Cobra with a LS at any road course. Are you guys aware that the 1999 and 2001 SVT Cobras go 0 to 60 in about 5.5 and do the 1/4 mile in about 13.8. You guys need to get off of the crack pipe if you think stock against stock a LS can give the Cobra a race!!!!! And I'm talking about road racing or drag racing.

I can guarantee you that with a properly driven LS that would be a different story. I have seen much underpowered cars beat "faster" cars on the road course due to the "slower" cars ability to take turns at much higher speeds. This allows the vehicle to carry not only more speed through the turn but also have an easier time accelerating out of the turn. I am a big dragracer and work on modded Mustangs all the time so I am well aware of their stock capabilities. Also the LS likes to rev so in an environment, like the road course, where it is not starting from a dead stop and having to take forever to get into its powerband it will accelerate pretty quickly.

I don't think anyone here is high enough to think that any stock LS will take a New Edge Cobra in a dragrace.

 

[NateRW21]

I can guarantee you that with a properly driven LS that would be a different story. I have seen much underpowered cars beat "faster" cars on the road course due to the "slower" cars ability to take turns at much higher speeds. This allows the vehicle to carry not only more speed through the turn but also have an easier time accelerating out of the turn. I am a big dragracer and work on modded Mustangs all the time so I am well aware of their stock capabilities. Also the LS likes to rev so in an environment, like the road course, where it is not starting from a dead stop and having to take forever to get into its powerband it will accelerate pretty quickly.

I don't think anyone here is high enough to think that any stock LS will take a New Edge Cobra in a dragrace.

Let us look at numbers alone:

2001 Mustang Cobra:
320 BHP
317 Lb. Ft. Torque
3430 Lbs. Curb Weight

2003 Lincoln LS:
280 BHP
286 Lb. Ft. Torque
3755 Lbs. Curb Weight

Both are IFS / IRS cars, factory to factory, the Cobra sits lower and has much better tires at the least. Tell me how you figure the LS can make up for a 40 HP, 31 lb ft torque deficit and an additional 325lbs of weight? I love my LS, but I'm not foolish enough to think that it would stand a snow ball's chance in hell against an 01 cobra on a road course with equally skilled drivers. Lets be honest with ourselves here... the LS is a sporty sedan... not a SPORTS CAR. It is what it is... We're sitting here saying an apple is as good if not better at being an orange than the orange is. It might be able to give a Mustang GT of the 99-04 range a run for it's money on a road course... but I still wouldn't want to bet on it; the GT is lighter still than the Cobra (3347Lbs.), with power numbers on paper only a little below the LS. Would actually be a race I'd like to see.

 

[ILLS]

Let us look at numbers alone:

2001 Mustang Cobra:
320 BHP
317 Lb. Ft. Torque
3430 Lbs. Curb Weight

2003 Lincoln LS:
280 BHP
286 Lb. Ft. Torque
3755 Lbs. Curb Weight

Both are IFS / IRS cars, factory to factory, the Cobra sits lower and has much better tires at the least. Tell me how you figure the LS can make up for a 40 HP, 31 lb ft torque deficit and an additional 325lbs of weight? I love my LS, but I'm not foolish enough to think that it would stand a snow ball's chance in hell against an 01 cobra on a road course with equally skilled drivers. Lets be honest with ourselves here... the LS is a sporty sedan... not a SPORTS CAR. It is what it is... We're sitting here saying an apple is as good if not better at being an orange than the orange is. It might be able to give a Mustang GT of the 99-04 range a run for it's money on a road course... but I still wouldn't want to bet on it; the GT is lighter still than the Cobra (3347Lbs.), with power numbers on paper only a little below the LS. Would actually be a race I'd like to see.

Its ok, I have seen many times where numbers say one thing and results show another. Just because a vehicle "has IFS/IRS" doesn't mean that it can handle worth a crap while taking a turn. Mustang's are well known for being nose heavy which does not help when coming into a turn either. 99 Kobra made it sound like a 99/01 Cobra would leave a Gen 2 LS V8 in the dust on the road course and I just highly doubt that assumption. The ability to take a turn at a higher speed will be a huge benefit on the track, period. I have seen cars with well over a 100 hp deficit make up for it in the twisties of a road course and be able to retain enough speed to even pass on the straightaways. That is due to the way the suspension and weight distro was setup in both vehicles. Numbers said one thing but reality said another.

 

[NaplesBill]

ILLS,

I agree with you on this. The thing that those peak power figures don't tell is the power curve. The power curve is far more useful on a road course than peak power. And a car with better handling can make up for deficits in power. I have seen plenty of vids showing cars like the SVT Foci pushing cars with turbo engines and a large percentage more HP. The LS is essentially 50/50 balanced and that is an important factor to handling. Also, just saying IRS does not make all IRS setups equal.

 

[99 KOBRA]

You guys are comical!!! Have either of you ever driven a Cobra on a road course? Do either of you have competition licenses? I have competition licenses issued by NASA and BMW CCA. I also instruct at BMW CCA driving schools on race tracks. The LS is a great car with a good suspension, but the Cobra is lighter than a LS and has a much more powerful engine than a LS. The Cobra also has a good suspension. For some reason, you guys think that a LS handles better than a Cobra. Guess what? It doesn't.

You guys keep talking about less powerful cars being able to negotiate the corners quicker than more powerful cars. Guess what, those less powerful cars are lighter than the cars with more power. THE LS IS LESS POWERFUL AND HEAVIER!!!!!!!!!!

 

[NaplesBill]

You guys are comical!!! Have either of you ever driven a Cobra on a road course? Do either of you have competition licenses? I have competition licenses issued by NASA and BMW CCA. I also instruct at BMW CCA driving schools on race tracks. The LS is a great car with a good suspension, but the Cobra is lighter than a LS and has a much more powerful engine than a LS. The Cobra also has a good suspension. For some reason, you guys think that a LS handles better than a Cobra. Guess what? It doesn't.

You guys keep talking about less powerful cars being able to negotiate the corners quicker than more powerful cars. Guess what, those less powerful cars are lighter than the cars with more power. THE LS IS LESS POWERFUL AND HEAVIER!!!!!!!!!!

You are just as comical because I never said anything like what you just described. I merely stated that there are situations where handling can overcome a power deficit. I'm glad you have competition licenses for BMW CCA. That does not make you all knowing about which cars handle best. It just means you have training that will allow you to take advantage of a cars performance characteristics. A certification in anything does not guarantee you are an expert. It just means you passed a test. I'm not saying you aren't an expert but don't throw certifications around like they make you some sort of God. Your points and merits should stand alone without resorting to that kind of nonsense.

I never said that the LS WOULD BEAT the Cobra. You need to go back and read again without reading into it. As a matter of fact, I never even mentioned the Cobra in my last response. I merely stated that looking at peak numbers is not the best indicator of actual performance. I will say, now that you bring it up, that if you could get power levels equal to the Cobra in an LS it would most likely beat the Cobra outright. This means both vehicles have the same power, same suspension upgrades(without any changes to basic architecture). If you could create that race I THINK the LS would win. That is all. I love the Cobra just as much as the next guy. You have taken my comments way out of context. I don't think the Cobra has anywhere near a 50/50 weight balance but I could be wrong. My only point was that with an exceptional suspension, you can actually ALMOST beat a car with a LOT MORE POWER on a twisty course. I was not necessarily talking about the Mustang or the LS.