hite337
Hite Performance
This is true. The 28 spline Ford T-loc has been discontinued. You can still find new 28 spline LSDs from Auburn, Torsen, etc but they cost a lot more than buying a used T-loc and having it rebuilt
500+ HP rear Axles?
- Thread starter tijoe
- Start date
This is true. The 28 spline Ford T-loc has been discontinued. You can still find new 28 spline LSDs from Auburn, Torsen, etc but they cost a lot more than buying a used T-loc and having it rebuilt
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
there is a new one for sale, on this forum, right now. so if anyone is looking for one, now is a good time.
Just for fun, you can try looking at Explorer axles. Not sure if they are 28 or 31 spline, but if the length matches the LS or is fairly close then they would have to be a sizable increase in power handling. Considering the Explorer is rated as a tow vehicle and not light, I imagine they are beefy.
I've spent all the free time I could find over the past 4 days scouring the internet for information about CV based IRS Axles. I am shocked that there is so little technical information posted. I am trying to organize all the images, catalogs, P/N, and tid-bits of information I have compiled.
Here is a quick summary.
1. I could not find any online technical publications regarding splined axles. Eg. Chart of spline count to OD of axle, with associated torque ratings, materials...
I did find some information on 28 spline and 31 spline used on the inner and outer CV axle stubs. There is almost no information about the 1/2 shaft axle spline counts associated to Tripod bearing sizes and/or Porsche CV joints (Rzeppa type)
2. There are very few drawings published that detail any dimensions on splined hub lengths, and outer and inner axle stubs. (Say I wanted to compare a LS outer axle stud dimensions to a Cobra/MK 28 splined alxle stub to see how their lengths are different.)
3. I haven't found any detailed information about dimensions and sizes of tripod bearings. Specifically the ones being used in Ford cars.
4. The best resource I found so far are the EMPI catalogs.
5. Due to this lack of information, the only viable choices I have to put together stronger axles is to purchase them from one of the 5 companies I found that will put together custom half-shaft axles, or purchase all the used axles I can find that have similar features and see if parts can be crossed to my needs.
6. After reading hundreds of postings on sites like Factory Five Racing, the AC Cobra Kit car forum, LS1 Tech. Miata site, I've come to the conclusion that the stock axles are good to about 450 HP with an automatic trans, and 400 HP if you have a manual Trans. So if you have 550 to 600 HP you will need heavier duty axles.
7. I will go ahead with my plans to build my 8.8 Mark 8 donor carrier with a 31 spline Torsen T-2R LSD.
Based on all the information I've gathered, I am purchasing all the $30 to $50 Ford axles I think may have potential donor parts, Hopefully, all I will have to have custom made is the center axle shafts. (Say to adapt from a 37 splined F150/Expedition inner tripod bearing to a 33 splined tripod outer bearing used in the 28 splined LS/S-type hub axles) If this route doesn't work, I will have to bight the bullet and purchase custom axles assemblies.
Here is a quick summary.
1. I could not find any online technical publications regarding splined axles. Eg. Chart of spline count to OD of axle, with associated torque ratings, materials...
I did find some information on 28 spline and 31 spline used on the inner and outer CV axle stubs. There is almost no information about the 1/2 shaft axle spline counts associated to Tripod bearing sizes and/or Porsche CV joints (Rzeppa type)
2. There are very few drawings published that detail any dimensions on splined hub lengths, and outer and inner axle stubs. (Say I wanted to compare a LS outer axle stud dimensions to a Cobra/MK 28 splined alxle stub to see how their lengths are different.)
3. I haven't found any detailed information about dimensions and sizes of tripod bearings. Specifically the ones being used in Ford cars.
4. The best resource I found so far are the EMPI catalogs.
5. Due to this lack of information, the only viable choices I have to put together stronger axles is to purchase them from one of the 5 companies I found that will put together custom half-shaft axles, or purchase all the used axles I can find that have similar features and see if parts can be crossed to my needs.
6. After reading hundreds of postings on sites like Factory Five Racing, the AC Cobra Kit car forum, LS1 Tech. Miata site, I've come to the conclusion that the stock axles are good to about 450 HP with an automatic trans, and 400 HP if you have a manual Trans. So if you have 550 to 600 HP you will need heavier duty axles.
7. I will go ahead with my plans to build my 8.8 Mark 8 donor carrier with a 31 spline Torsen T-2R LSD.
Based on all the information I've gathered, I am purchasing all the $30 to $50 Ford axles I think may have potential donor parts, Hopefully, all I will have to have custom made is the center axle shafts. (Say to adapt from a 37 splined F150/Expedition inner tripod bearing to a 33 splined tripod outer bearing used in the 28 splined LS/S-type hub axles) If this route doesn't work, I will have to bight the bullet and purchase custom axles assemblies.
Right after I posted, the doorbell rang and Fed Ex dropped off the pair of 06 LS Axles I purchased last week. I will tear one apart and record the dimensions ASAP.
These are Gen 2 LS axles. First thing to note is one is shorter than the other by almost 3". This goes to show how different the Gen 2 carrier is than the Gen 1.
(Note: Reference to Gen 2 LSD threads)
I counted the splines on both ends of the half shaft and as I believed, they are both 28 spline!
I can't wait to measure and make an Excel spread sheet of all the pertinent dimensions!
These are Gen 2 LS axles. First thing to note is one is shorter than the other by almost 3". This goes to show how different the Gen 2 carrier is than the Gen 1.
(Note: Reference to Gen 2 LSD threads)
I counted the splines on both ends of the half shaft and as I believed, they are both 28 spline!
I can't wait to measure and make an Excel spread sheet of all the pertinent dimensions!
450 sounds reasonable for most IRS set-up HP limits. There aren't too many IRS RWD cars to begin with, and fewer still that are pushing more then 450hp to the rear. The ones that are are exotic enough that no one blinks an eye at $2K CV axles.
Instead of buying axles from a junkyard, find a friend who works for an autoparts store (or a store that is familiar/comfortable with you) and just have them pull 3-4 axles off the shelf so you can measure them. Better then spending money you might not use and you might find something close enough that what you do spend money on won't be wasted. Based on just the pictures, the 2006-2010 Explorer rear axles look pretty damn close to the LS axles. The ABS ring looks like it might be in a different spot and of course a picture can't be measured.
Also throwing it out there, although I seriously doubt it would even be close, but Expeditions have IRS RWD. The center section is 9.75" and i'm guessing they are physically too big but who knows. They would damn sure be a much heavier/stronger axle for sure.
Instead of buying axles from a junkyard, find a friend who works for an autoparts store (or a store that is familiar/comfortable with you) and just have them pull 3-4 axles off the shelf so you can measure them. Better then spending money you might not use and you might find something close enough that what you do spend money on won't be wasted. Based on just the pictures, the 2006-2010 Explorer rear axles look pretty damn close to the LS axles. The ABS ring looks like it might be in a different spot and of course a picture can't be measured.
Also throwing it out there, although I seriously doubt it would even be close, but Expeditions have IRS RWD. The center section is 9.75" and i'm guessing they are physically too big but who knows. They would damn sure be a much heavier/stronger axle for sure.
Some good input. The problem with trying to measure axles in the auto parts store is that one can't tear the CV joint apart to take a look the the size of the tripod bearing and confirm/measure the spline dimensions. I have already determined a few good candidates for 31 spline inner 8.8 stub axles that should work, but I don't know enough about the tripod bearing side of the CV joint. I am focusing on the 2007-2012 Ford F150/Expedition/Navigator front differential driver side inner axle stub. It fits 31 spline 8.8 differentials and takes a 37 splined CV axle. Cross checking the outer roller bearing and seal indicates it is a match with the 31 spline 8.8 Cobra.
I don't mind spending a couple hundred extra dollars here and there to see if I can find a stronger cost effective solution. It just doesn't seem right having to spend $2K on a set of axles after spending $1K on building up an LSD carrier.
Problem is you can re-engineer the 28 spline on the axle housing side all day long, but your hub bearing splines on the spindles are still going to be 28 spline, unless you re-engineer the cobra hub bearings to fit into an LS spindle.
chris2523
93 Mark VIII
90% sure, hub splines on the cobra are still 28 spline.
because we Mark VIII guys use cobra hubs and press them into our IRS to run the Mustang bolt pattern. and we can still use our factory axles.
so the cobra hub side of the axle is still 28 spline.
Ahh, lucky then.
Yup, This is one of the limitations I have ran into upgrading the Axles. The DEW98 based LS/S-type/Tbirds all use the same outer hub bearing. The Cobra/Mark 8 use a different bearing. Both bearings have a 1.6535" bore.
The LS bearings have a larger OD and are longer than the Cobra bearing.
All use 28 splines. The reason LS hubs and Cobra hubs aren't interchangeable is that LS hubs bearing shaft is longer, 1.8 inches. The cobra bearings are 1.53" long.
(The outer hub bearings used on the LS are actually stronger than the Cobra hub bearings)
I have searched to try and find a wheel hub similar to ours that has perhaps has 30 or 31 splines. I've found only one potential 30 spline hub, but based on what car is on, I doubt it is heavier duty. If it pans out, I'll post the findings.
I guess my approach is to beef up what I can for now, and if it breaks someday deal with it then.
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Interesting find!
I took apart the 06 LS inner CV joint and was pleased to find that it is not a tripod bearing, but a true 8 bearing Rzeppa CV joint. This design CV joint should take way more that 500HP and lots of torque!
I was also pleased to find that the inner race and axle has 35 splines, rather than 33.
I took apart the 06 LS inner CV joint and was pleased to find that it is not a tripod bearing, but a true 8 bearing Rzeppa CV joint. This design CV joint should take way more that 500HP and lots of torque!
I was also pleased to find that the inner race and axle has 35 splines, rather than 33.
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So the question becomes if the Gen1 axles use a similar design center. The gen2 axles aren't really usable with the 8.8" swap. Lengths are wrongs, and the inner coupler doesn't fit the 8.8" housing.
But assuming that the Gen1 and Gen2 CV axles are the same design just varying lengths, you can always add extra strength to the inner joint by machining a steel sleeve to slide over the outer cup. The stiffer it is the better. Not that it matters too much considering the spline end for the carrier is still 28-spline.
Hopefully the explorer or cobra inner joint is the same. Be an easy way to upgrade the inner to 31-spline if it is. The would at a minimum address your less expensive carrier wants. Should be able to roughly compare the outer diameter of the joint receiver and see if the explorer or cobra axle is similar. If they are 1/2" off or more then you know it won't work.
The half-shaft on the LS CV joints is actually tapered down in the center. You might be able to have just a custom half shaft made that is the same diameter for the whole length. That would also add some strength. Also possible the half-shaft out of an explorer (cobra would be too short i'm guessing) might fit assuming it's any thicker. This is where I'd go to an autoparts store, pull a CV joint down, and measure the compressed length and half-shaft diameter before buying a used one to tear down. If the length is wildly off or the diameter is smaller then you can just skip buying one for the half-shaft. If the diameter is also bigger then the splined end then you can skip it since it won't fit your inner joint.
Was the outer bearing just a standard tripod bearing?
>Was the outer bearing just a standard tripod bearing?
It is a 8 bearing Rzeppa VC joint. I haven't been able to figure out how to get it apart yet. (I can't see any retainers, and I don't want to pound on it yet)
The outer CV joint has no linear travel. (Not needed, versus the inner CV joint)
When the Gen 1 and the F150/Expedition axles arrive, I will be able to note the differences.
I haven't found any 03 or 04 Cobra axles as a good price. I guess that demand is high, so the prices are jacked up. I am not interested as much in Cobra Axles because I think they all have 28 inner splines and I am looking for 31 spline styles.
Here is some information on several Axles I have researched:
Ford Explorer: Splines 27 inner, 27 outer, compressed length: 25 25/32
F150/Expedition FT: 31 inner, 45 outer (for 4WD) compressed length: 24 15/16"
Lincoln Mark 8: 28 Inner, 28 outer, Compressed length: 31 11/16
Lincoln LS/S-type Gen 1: 28 inner, 28 outer, Compressed Length TBD?
Lincoln LS/Stype Gen 2, 28 inner, 28 outer, Compressed Lengths TBD?
It is a 8 bearing Rzeppa VC joint. I haven't been able to figure out how to get it apart yet. (I can't see any retainers, and I don't want to pound on it yet)
The outer CV joint has no linear travel. (Not needed, versus the inner CV joint)
When the Gen 1 and the F150/Expedition axles arrive, I will be able to note the differences.
I haven't found any 03 or 04 Cobra axles as a good price. I guess that demand is high, so the prices are jacked up. I am not interested as much in Cobra Axles because I think they all have 28 inner splines and I am looking for 31 spline styles.
Here is some information on several Axles I have researched:
Ford Explorer: Splines 27 inner, 27 outer, compressed length: 25 25/32
F150/Expedition FT: 31 inner, 45 outer (for 4WD) compressed length: 24 15/16"
Lincoln Mark 8: 28 Inner, 28 outer, Compressed length: 31 11/16
Lincoln LS/S-type Gen 1: 28 inner, 28 outer, Compressed Length TBD?
Lincoln LS/Stype Gen 2, 28 inner, 28 outer, Compressed Lengths TBD?
The set of 2001 S-type axles arrived today. I am amazed how different they are from the 06 LS axles. I will take one apart ASAP.
- First thing that stands out is that the inner axle stub for the Gen 1 carrier is longer than on the Gen 2 inner axle stubs. Show how much different the Gen 1 and Gen 2 carrier housings are.
- Next I see that the LH and RH axles are unequal lengths, but not as pronounced as the 06LS axles. about 1-1/2"
- The CV joint housings are significantly larger on the Gen 1 4.2L axles than on the Gen 2. (100mm OD versus 85mm)
- The axles shafts are a smaller OD on Gen 1 than Gen 2. 27.5mm versus 29mm
I'll post some CV images once I take the axles apart
I wonder now if Gen 1 LS axles are actually the same as Gen1 Jaguar S-type axles...
- First thing that stands out is that the inner axle stub for the Gen 1 carrier is longer than on the Gen 2 inner axle stubs. Show how much different the Gen 1 and Gen 2 carrier housings are.
- Next I see that the LH and RH axles are unequal lengths, but not as pronounced as the 06LS axles. about 1-1/2"
- The CV joint housings are significantly larger on the Gen 1 4.2L axles than on the Gen 2. (100mm OD versus 85mm)
- The axles shafts are a smaller OD on Gen 1 than Gen 2. 27.5mm versus 29mm
I'll post some CV images once I take the axles apart
I wonder now if Gen 1 LS axles are actually the same as Gen1 Jaguar S-type axles...
I took apart the inner CV joint on the 2000 S-type Axles. This assembly is larger than the 06 LS inner hub. There are 6 bearings rather than 8. The spline count on the axle is 36 teeth. (Even though the main diameter of the axle is smaller, the splined area is slightly larger than on the 06 LS axle.
When I get a chance, I'll post the 2 next to each other.
I have another problem. I can't get the outer CV race and hub off of the race for the life of me. I have hit it with a 3 lb sledge hammer with the axle in a vice. Then I got the idea off the web to use a heavy pipe/slide tube that the axle slips into and slam it on the ground. After repeated attempts to get the axle out, all I did was smash holes in my driveway and made my right hand sore holding onto the outer axle stub. Any other ideas will be appreciated figuring out how to get the axle out.
Question is: Which inner CV flange is stronger? Larger with 6 balls or Smaller OD with 8 balls...
When I get a chance, I'll post the 2 next to each other.
I have another problem. I can't get the outer CV race and hub off of the race for the life of me. I have hit it with a 3 lb sledge hammer with the axle in a vice. Then I got the idea off the web to use a heavy pipe/slide tube that the axle slips into and slam it on the ground. After repeated attempts to get the axle out, all I did was smash holes in my driveway and made my right hand sore holding onto the outer axle stub. Any other ideas will be appreciated figuring out how to get the axle out.
Question is: Which inner CV flange is stronger? Larger with 6 balls or Smaller OD with 8 balls...
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I'd say the 6-bearing joint cause of the angled races. It would distribute the stress more evenly over the cup, or at least that's what I think. Plus more surface area from the larger bearings would help as well. Just how much stronger I wouldn't even have a clue.
>I'd say the 6-bearing joint cause of the angled races. It would distribute the stress more evenly over the cup, or at least that's what I think. Plus more surface area from the larger bearings would help as well. Just how much stronger I wouldn't even have a clue.<
Not sure I completely agree with you. Wouldn't 8 ball bearings distribute the load more evenly around the joint?
Assuming each ball bearing has close to the same contact patch area, I tend to think that 8 contact points would be better than 6 to distribute the torque plus perhaps transmit a higher load overall.
But on the other hand, the larger inner joint is a crosstrack style plunging CV joint where the 6 ball follow a "S" shape on the inner race and housing. The 8 ball smaller CV joint on the 06LS axle is a standard ball plunging style CV joint. (06LS also has more travel)
Therefore I am on the fence concerning which is stronger overall.
In some ways it doesn't matter because I wont be using either of these for my axles. I need a 31 splined inner CV joint to fit the LSD I am using. But I want to see if the one I will try to use is as strong or stronger.
Not sure I completely agree with you. Wouldn't 8 ball bearings distribute the load more evenly around the joint?
Assuming each ball bearing has close to the same contact patch area, I tend to think that 8 contact points would be better than 6 to distribute the torque plus perhaps transmit a higher load overall.
But on the other hand, the larger inner joint is a crosstrack style plunging CV joint where the 6 ball follow a "S" shape on the inner race and housing. The 8 ball smaller CV joint on the 06LS axle is a standard ball plunging style CV joint. (06LS also has more travel)
Therefore I am on the fence concerning which is stronger overall.
In some ways it doesn't matter because I wont be using either of these for my axles. I need a 31 splined inner CV joint to fit the LSD I am using. But I want to see if the one I will try to use is as strong or stronger.
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The GEN II axles won't fit into an 8.8 housing, look at your last picture of the axles, you'll have to get that collar on the housing side machined down so the axle will slide in all the way.
Jason and I have 8.8 swaps, not sure if there's any others, he has a nice writeup on it.
Jason and I have 8.8 swaps, not sure if there's any others, he has a nice writeup on it.
Jason's success if part of the reason for this discussion of axles.
Thank you for the input, but we already know that the axles are not interchangeable. My goal is to use a 31 spline inboard CV joint stub in my Mark 8 carrier with a Torson T-2R LSD. I need a carrier and axles that will handle 600HP.
This part of the discussion is about all the differences between the Gen 1 and Gen 2 half-shaft axle assemblies as a discovery process regarding what the parts actually look like visually and dimensionally.
I would imagine the larger diameter makes the angular force on the bearings more perpendicular to the axis of rotation. Meaning more force is pushing to the side of the bearing as opposed to trying to push the bearing up. With any bearing there is an angular force imposed on it. The force is a trigonometric function of the separation from bearing to bearing in the race.
Think back to math class and computing the length of the sides of a triangle relative to their angles. Same thing can be applied here. The more bearings you have, the less force is pushing the bearing away from the races and the more force is transmitted through the races.
So even though the there are only 6 bearings in the s-type joint, they are further away from the center axis. This means there is more force pushing against the side of the bearing then there is pushing up against the bearing. The curved grooves also help maintain this geometry as the shaft moves.
On the LS shaft, the angular force pushes up more at the extreme shaft angles which will cause more deflection in the joint cup. Deflection will cause the cup to develop stress cracks over time and fail.
Another thing that the larger joint gives you is more leverage and bigger surface areas to distribute the stress over. The tensile strength and hardness of the metal are less of a factor with the bigger joint's strength.
The downside is cost to manufacture and weight. The price point would certainly explain why Ford used a different joint. Probably the joint layout is a similar design to something else Ford already had. They would then have pretty minimal re-tooling requirements at that point.
Think back to math class and computing the length of the sides of a triangle relative to their angles. Same thing can be applied here. The more bearings you have, the less force is pushing the bearing away from the races and the more force is transmitted through the races.
So even though the there are only 6 bearings in the s-type joint, they are further away from the center axis. This means there is more force pushing against the side of the bearing then there is pushing up against the bearing. The curved grooves also help maintain this geometry as the shaft moves.
On the LS shaft, the angular force pushes up more at the extreme shaft angles which will cause more deflection in the joint cup. Deflection will cause the cup to develop stress cracks over time and fail.
Another thing that the larger joint gives you is more leverage and bigger surface areas to distribute the stress over. The tensile strength and hardness of the metal are less of a factor with the bigger joint's strength.
The downside is cost to manufacture and weight. The price point would certainly explain why Ford used a different joint. Probably the joint layout is a similar design to something else Ford already had. They would then have pretty minimal re-tooling requirements at that point.
On a slightly different approach, I researched and listed all of the various Cardone P/Ns for rear axles for the LS and S-type. I found 7 different pairs of axles. 2 different pairs numbers for the LS and 5 different pairs for the S-type.
It would appear that jaguar was much more busy making changes than Ford.
For now, I'll list Cardone P/Ns without any details, but if/when I get cross referenced P/Ns to the Factory P/Ns and more dimensional details, I'll post the Excel file.
LR RR
1 602149 602150 2000 - 2002 LS (Gen 1 Carrier)
2 602180 602181 2003 - 2006 LS (Gen 2 Carrier)
3 602218 602219 1999 - 2002 S-Type 4.0L (Gen 1 Carrier)
4 602220 602221 1999 - 2002 S-type 3.0L (Gen 1 Carrier)
5 602224 602225 2003 - 2005 S-type 4.0 and 3.0 (Gen 2 Carrier)
6 602214 602215 2003 - 2005 S-type 4.0L R (Gen 2 Carrrier)
7 602216 602217 2006 - 2008 S-type All
Questions arise: Are the same model-year axles the same between the LS and S-type and only the P/Ns are different, or are all the Axles different and this is represented by unique P/Ns. Are the LS and S-type Reluctor rings the same? Same tooth count?
It would appear that jaguar was much more busy making changes than Ford.
For now, I'll list Cardone P/Ns without any details, but if/when I get cross referenced P/Ns to the Factory P/Ns and more dimensional details, I'll post the Excel file.
LR RR
1 602149 602150 2000 - 2002 LS (Gen 1 Carrier)
2 602180 602181 2003 - 2006 LS (Gen 2 Carrier)
3 602218 602219 1999 - 2002 S-Type 4.0L (Gen 1 Carrier)
4 602220 602221 1999 - 2002 S-type 3.0L (Gen 1 Carrier)
5 602224 602225 2003 - 2005 S-type 4.0 and 3.0 (Gen 2 Carrier)
6 602214 602215 2003 - 2005 S-type 4.0L R (Gen 2 Carrrier)
7 602216 602217 2006 - 2008 S-type All
Questions arise: Are the same model-year axles the same between the LS and S-type and only the P/Ns are different, or are all the Axles different and this is represented by unique P/Ns. Are the LS and S-type Reluctor rings the same? Same tooth count?
There's a guy on the jaguar forum with twin scroll jaguar xkr which uses the same rear as the gen 2 ls or s-type r. He has around 550whp with no issues. I think your biggest feat would be fitting a lsd. Just throwing this out there but why didn't you ever consider just buying a s-type r. A Twin scroll supercharger upgrade is all its missing from being a 500whp daily driver.
The rear end on the s-type r is good till at least 500whp. There's a guy on the jaguar forums (avos) with a 530+whp xkr which uses the same rear end. So a gen 2 swap with a lsd is a much cheaper solution. j/w Why didn't you go with a str?? my str with exhaust intake elbow is faster than a new stock ss camaro, I've raced a few. There's also the possibility of a twin screw supercharer which would put you over the 500whp mark. I kno the ls motors are beasts, As i just got rid of a bolt on cam nitrous gto.
I have a 2004 STR. It is already modified to around 430 hp. I just wanted to do something different by putting an LS3 into an S-type and build a car that is quicker and handles better. Then when I put a super-charger on it and headers, it will output closer to 550 hp.
The 2000 S-type I put the LS3 in, isn't an STR, so it needs additional suspension and rear end work. It is nice to know that the STR differential /axles handle 500hp, but I believe those rear ends in the STRs are Gen 2 and can't take LSD yet.