Devin's 06 LS - Round 2

[Telco]

If it's the clattering sound at startup only when cold I thought that was determined to be oil leaking down out of the VVT cam advance setup, and someone had fixed it by replacing that part.

 

[joegr]

If it's the clattering sound at startup only when cold I thought that was determined to be oil leaking down out of the VVT cam advance setup, and someone had fixed it by replacing that part.

I agree, but that's not the sound in his video. I suppose it could be the VCT solenoid activating instead of the DCCV solenoid...

 

[Telco]

I didn't listen to it. I have a hard enough time hearing problems standing in front of the actual car, there's no way I'm going to pick it up over the tinny little speakers on my computer. I was going off the description in the post.

 

[don-ohio]

I couldn't tell by that,but some have said their drive belt tensioners jump loose a little when it's cold.Mine hasn't yet. don-ohio ^)

 

[DeviLSh]

Did not unplug DCCV yet, I am traveling for work, so I just took a second video tonight of the belts. it was 27* so it only clunked once. But you can see the belt shift when it clunks.

https://youtu.be/lOworxumyn8

Seems similar to post #56 from here:

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/forum/showthread.php?86480-Engine-rattles-on-startup/page3

I have this exact same issue, last week I took my belt off before starting it and the noise didn't happen, the next morning I had my wife start the car up while I watched the belt tensioner, sure enough, it bounced back and forth about 1/2 an inch and made a loud clanking noise for about 3 seconds then smoothed out. I think the spring is getting weak and it shows more in the cold weather, and once it flexes a few times it starts working better. I'm ordering a new one off of eBay, apparently they are the same part # as Ford Fusion tensioners, about $50 for Motorcraft. I'm also replacing all of my pulleys at the same time since they seemed to have a lot of resistance to spinning when I had the belt off....

 

[don-ohio]

Actually,it sounds kinda like a bad pulley. You can loosen the tensioner pulley and check each bearing for play. don-ohio ^)

 

[RigsLS]

DeviLSh

Observe just right from the center, about 1/2 inch down from the top, in your video.

@ 00:02 you can both hear the click and see that part move in sync with the sound.


Play it over and over again, right at 00:01 - 00:02 second in the video.

Only the one clunk sound unlike your other video, as mine, the 04 LSE when very cold on start it makes that clunking sound a bunch of times, associated with a mild suction sound, goes away anywhere from 5 - 10 seconds.


What is that part moving, A/C clutch? see the lever move quickly right as the sound occurs?



I'm not in a position to video tape mine right now but if you next time could point the camera more towards that part.
I bet you'd see it move about in more repetition as the vehicle had had a chance to sit longer overnight in the cold.

 

[DeviLSh]

BigRig. I believe the part moving is the tensioner.

 

[RigsLS]

I wasn't sure of the orientation of how you were filming it. it looked to the right to me when standing directly in front of it. Doesn't really matter. Let's find out what's making that noise.

So if it's moving at the same time I hear that clunk sound, we could suspect that part? So not the A/C compressor Clutch but rather the Belt Tensioner?

I'm sorry, I don't have much time before I head out for another week but you think you could do another vid on a cold start on a real cold overnight and point the camera directly at the tentioner?

I really should be looking at mine own, I have the IDENTICAL clunk on very cold starts BUT .... you are helping me extremely here and I appreciate that very much!



If that Tensioner doesn't like cold weather, it's stiff to move and seems to me it's hitting something when it's back lashing, most likely it's own stopper or something.

I replaced my tensioner on my 01 but it went in the garbage, I would have loved to have had a look at it in my hand as to determine what and why it would make that CLUNK CLUNK CLUNK noise. Might be able to get a few more miles out of it by simply giving it a dose of PB plaster.

I'm all ears ... and thank you!

 

[joegr]

Keep in mind that the tensioner could be just doing its job. It may be moving in reaction to something else that is happening. It could be reacting (as it should) to a sudden load from the AC clutch (though it doesn't sound like the factory clutch). Or maybe a bad damper pulley (I would expect that to be a problem for much longer before it warmed up).

 

[RigsLS]

Agreed, just like my 01 this 04 will most likely see all new accessory drive components along with a fresh belt.

Wish I had more time and a warm garage with a hoist, problem would be resolved much quicker ... I'll get to it.

Still got that A/C compressor leak to deal with also, probably just put a new unit on but possibly not OEM.

 

[DeviLSh]

So if it's moving at the same time I hear that clunk sound, we could suspect that part? So not the A/C compressor Clutch but rather the Belt Tensioner?

I'm sorry, I don't have much time before I head out for another week but you think you could do another vid on a cold start on a real cold overnight and point the camera directly at the tentioner?

I really should be looking at mine own, I have the IDENTICAL clunk on very cold starts BUT .... you are helping me extremely here and I appreciate that very much!


If that Tensioner doesn't like cold weather, it's stiff to move and seems to me it's hitting something when it's back lashing, most likely it's own stopper or something.

I'm all ears ... and thank you!

No problem, and thanks for talking me through this as well. I will try for another video, but it is unfortunately getting warmer around here (never thought I would say that). I will try it tonight just to see if the first start will trigger it.

Keep in mind that the tensioner could be just doing its job. It may be moving in reaction to something else that is happening. It could be reacting (as it should) to a sudden load from the AC clutch (though it doesn't sound like the factory clutch). Or maybe a bad damper pulley (I would expect that to be a problem for much longer before it warmed up).

Also true - I turn all my hvac off before I turn off the car if that makes a difference on whether or not the A/C is trying to start right away.

I agree a bad damper pulley would not just magically subside after 10 seconds though.

Lastly - are we all in agreement that regardless of what is causing the movement, that is not normal? Can someone confirm on a "good" LS that the tensioner does not travel on first start? (whoever has a K&N intake would be easier without the stock resonance chambers present. )

 

[joegr]

I would expect it to move some anytime the engine is speeding up or slowing down noticeably. In my opinion, the noises from both videos are not normal (of course, it never gets that cold here so I may not know what normal is when really cold).
I have a bad damper on my 06, so the tensioner moves around quite a bit until the damper warms up a little. Not so for the 04.

 

[DeviLSh]

While not jumping to conclusions - if it is a problem with the crank pulley, is this seriously what it will cost me?

GOLD PULLEY

 

[joegr]

Yeah, that's why I haven't done it yet. The sane option is to keep searching the junkyards till you find one. One from any year 3.9 LS will work.

 

[DeviLSh]

Took one more tonight (22*F) Also note that there is a squeak present. Again, new belt. So there may be a few things going on here.

https://youtu.be/gudoquhaNow

Also joegr, found this today when searching for LSE tails. Mileage is meh

http://www.ebay.com/itm/301860480029?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[joegr]

Took one more tonight (22*F) Also note that there is a squeak present. Again, new belt. So there may be a few things going on here.
...
Also joegr, found this today when searching for LSE tails. Mileage is meh...

Thanks, that is very temping.

While it doesn't seem like it would be the AC clutch/compressor, Could you take a video showing the front of the AC clutch when this is happening? It's now clear (to me) that the tapping/clicking sound is the belt tensioner going all the way to its hard stop (should never happen).

I can see that the damper pulley tilts slightly at startup. This may be where your problem is. It certainly shouldn't do that. However, it seems pretty stable after that, but something is still causing the tensioner to oscillate a few more times after that.

Anyway, I'll hold off on deciding whether or not to go after that ebay damper a few days to give you a chance to get it.

 

[DeviLSh]

See Bold

While it doesn't seem like it would be the AC clutch/compressor, Could you take a video showing the front of the AC clutch when this is happening? It's now clear (to me) that the tapping/clicking sound is the belt tensioner going all the way to its hard stop (should never happen).

- I will try, the stock intake gets in the way of my camera. I will work another viewing angle next cold start.

I can see that the damper pulley tilts slightly at startup. This may be where your problem is. It certainly shouldn't do that. However, it seems pretty stable after that, but something is still causing the tensioner to oscillate a few more times after that.

- Yes when the damper first starts to rotate is appears to wobble. Not sure if this is an illusion because based on its rotation speed or a true wobble. I am gonna see if I can send this video to the tech who replaced my belt after my coolant repair.

- Harmonic Balancer is on the ESP pamphlet, but tensioner is not.

- Appreciate the head start on the pulley if that ends up being the diagnosis.

 

[DeviLSh]

De-badged the rear last night. One dealer emblem and the oem pieces. Ghosting wasn't too bad, but will def buff the trunk areas sometime in the next few days to diminish it further.

While I try and figure out this belt issue - I have some other things arriving and trying to get taken care of soon. I have removed the remainder of the PO's window tint, and am trying to schedule an appt locally for new film. Also have some upkeep items arriving and one fun thing. Slowly getting there, thanks for checking in.

 

[DeviLSh]

Temps have increased around here - so the tensioner thump has subsided, for now. I do get a bit of belt squeak/pulley high pitched noise on cold starts still. Will have to bust out the stetho this weekend and see if I can pinpoint it.

It was a nice day out yesterday, so I took some pics of the LS to document the tint film removal. Original stuff was in bad shape and a little purple in some lighting. Also, the rear debadge has cleaned up the rear and am happy with the condition of the paint underneath.

Picked this up from a local seller yesterday to replace the KKM (now for sale in classified section). I installed it last night and am the initial impressions are fantastic. Not much louder overall but much, much deeper. The growl is very aggressive and strong. Underpasses bellow with the V8 induction noise. very happy with the product.

To finalize the update, after calling numerous scrapyards, ebay sellers, and chasing down partout ads on CL - I got my hands on a set of LSE tails. 3 separate orders, but they are all in great shape. Also, some stuff from Tasca showed up. Too bad I will be ordering again from them soon most likely for this cold start issue.

Will have some updated shots once it is all on. Loving the car so far

 

[FDR]

Lather up the message button standoffs on the vent with epoxy before they break. Otherwise, you may find yourself buying that $100+ part again soon, or find yourself going mad an JB Welding nuts onto the vent like I did. What's the deal with the side vents though? Do they commonly break or fall off? I've seen a lot of people hunting for them

 

[RigsLS]

... What's the deal with the side vents though? Do they commonly break or fall off? I've seen a lot of people hunting for them

Yeah, it's part of the plastic cooling system, 10yrs + and they start to break, needs replacing around the same time the degas bottle gives way.

joking aside Frank, the little tabs often buckle and break, then refastening it with bonding agents becomes messy as it's such a little ridge to attempt to glue onto. Glueing them in never seems to work partly cuz the dash emits gasses that prevent any glue properly curing. Eventually you find it on the floor board kicking around after it blew off when defrost mode was selected.

I've replaced a couple here and there.


It's also a part that's somewhat low cost and dealership can have it in for you couple of days. Nothing like refreshing all the plastics on the entire cooling system!

 

[Wicked Ace]

Thanks guys.

I will try the unplug method on the DCCV to confirm. But with my head very close to it, and my hand touching it I do not think it is the source. Noises bounce around though, so I will definitely confirm. The DCCV on this car is not original, so that also leads me to believe I *should* have some more time left on it. I will report back soon.

The noise makes me cringe

Take a look at the fuse box on the right front of the car. It's a relay/s not pulling in and maintaining. If the coil on a relay doesn't hold, it'll click like that. I've been working around relays for over 30 years, I know what they sound like energizing.
I had the same problem in the winter on cold starts near or below freezing. I thought it was because there was a parasitic drain on the battery. It would be worse if the car sat for longer periods. I had a DVM on the + cable at the battery to read current flow but when I landed the cable it blew a 10 amp fuse after about 30 seconds. It took awhile to get a new fuse and I never got back to it. The clicking is more frequent at first then slows down to a stop. Once the car ran and had the charging system up to snuff there is enough voltage to hold the coil in on the relays and it quiets.
It's why Joe and guys in the warmer climates don't experience it.

 

[DeviLSh]

Take a look at the fuse box on the right front of the car. It's a relay/s not pulling in and maintaining. If the coil on a relay doesn't hold, it'll click like that. I've been working around relays for over 30 years, I know what they sound like energizing.
I had the same problem in the winter on cold starts near or below freezing. I thought it was because there was a parasitic drain on the battery. It would be worse if the car sat for longer periods. I had a DVM on the + cable at the battery to read current flow but when I landed the cable it blew a 10 amp fuse after about 30 seconds. It took awhile to get a new fuse and I never got back to it. The clicking is more frequent at first then slows down to a stop. Once the car ran and had the charging system up to snuff there is enough voltage to hold the coil in on the relays and it quiets.
It's why Joe and guys in the warmer climates don't experience it.

Wicked,

Thanks for the reply. This noise is louder than a relay click, although similar. Post #41 above shows my most recent video of the noise, and the noise occurs as the tensioner moves. Wasn't sure if you saw that video/post or not, and if it would alter your diagnosis theory.

Thanks!

 

[DeviLSh]

Mid-march, so work is very busy - but I found some time to get the LSE tails on the car, and I love them! Also got my new center vent in, wipers, new radiator cover trim fasteners, and I also removed all labels from that cover and headlights to clean up the engine by a bit. Found out my fuel filter has one quick release, and one spring style clamp on it - I am assuming I need the cheap tool for this, so I will have to grab that before swapping this one out.

Also made an appointment for new tint, but before the car went in for it, I needed to finish removing some left over film that was stuck between the parcel shelf and rear glass. This meant pulling the bottom cushion, rear bolsters, C-Pillars, weather stripping, and some trunk/seat-belt trim covers. Finally, I was able to remove the shelf.

After I was able to get the last bit of film off, came the tedious task of wiping and scraping away all residual glue from the previous film. Three hours later and a headache from fumes I was done. Note the shavings in this image... there was literally a layer of glue on the glass that needed to be scraped and wiped off. I scraped/wiped/buffed every square inch of the glass while sitting half on the rear seats (folded down) and half in the trunk. Not the best working angle. But I was not about to have the tint shop bill me for this.

All done!

"While I am in there..."
One of the rear deck woofers are cracking on lower/bass notes. Seems this is fairly common for LS's, even the THX vehicles? Since the shelf is off, and the speakers mount from the top, I am ordering a new pair and will re-assemble when they arrive.

Found THESE - hopefully they work out okay. Speakers are covered under ESP care, but with the $100 deductible and me already doing this work, it was not worth it for me to take the car in for it.

Got the car to tint yesterday and picked up last night. Quite a transformation. Windows up for the next few days. Will get better pics soon of the new work and tails. Here is a cell-phone image for now

One final comment, with the parcel shelf off the backup sensors are LOUD!

Thanks for checking in!