God is Only a Theory
- Thread starter hrmwrm
- Start date
As for the transfiguration,Moses and Elijah were representative of the Law(Moses) and the Prophets(Elijah) BOTH of those pointing to and BEING Fulfilled by the Christ.
It was a faith-strengthing VISION (Matt. 17:9) which bolstered Jesus,and Peter,James, and John.
As for the fact that Moses and Elijah were dead.....Hebrews 11:13 then 39,40. They are STILL awaiting resurrection shortly to come as the unrighteous world nears its end.
There was ANOTHER person there at the transfiguration...... Yahweh,showing His presence by the cloud. Luke 9:34 and 35 envisioned God's voice saying `This is my Son. The one that has been chosen. LISTEN to him.'
So you SHOULD listen to him,04,as God said, and BELIEVE that John 3:13 was NOT a lie spoken by Jesus,even though it has been told you from many years back. Have faith. Jesus never lied.
How bout John the Baptist? Jesus said:`Among men born of women there was not a greater than John. But the least one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.' don-ohio
^)
It was a faith-strengthing VISION (Matt. 17:9) which bolstered Jesus,and Peter,James, and John.
As for the fact that Moses and Elijah were dead.....Hebrews 11:13 then 39,40. They are STILL awaiting resurrection shortly to come as the unrighteous world nears its end.
There was ANOTHER person there at the transfiguration...... Yahweh,showing His presence by the cloud. Luke 9:34 and 35 envisioned God's voice saying `This is my Son. The one that has been chosen. LISTEN to him.'
So you SHOULD listen to him,04,as God said, and BELIEVE that John 3:13 was NOT a lie spoken by Jesus,even though it has been told you from many years back. Have faith. Jesus never lied.
How bout John the Baptist? Jesus said:`Among men born of women there was not a greater than John. But the least one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he.' don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Don,
I agree that there was a co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram, (both of Judah). That just proves my point even more. Jehoram received the prophecy from Elijah during that time... BEFORE Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire. Try again!!!
Right after Elijah is taken up in 2nd Kings 2,,, you have 2nd Kings 3.
2nd kings 3 shows an alliance between Jehoram of Israel, and King Jehoshaphat... and Elisha is the prophet at that time. This was right after Elijah was taken up. This was during the co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram of Judah. So to dismiss the facts,,, in an attempt to support your views... is in errancy.
Also... 2nd Chronicles 22 wasn't the first time Elijah was in Judah. In 1st Kings 19,,, during the reign of Ahab... Elijah fled to Beersheba, (in Judah). Granted... Elijah was supposedly transported from place to place at times,,, just like some of the New Testament Apostles were... but at this point in Kings and Chronicles,,, Elijah was never seen or heard from again... until the Mount of Transfiguration.
I've also started digging into the writings of Josephus during the same time period. That is a bit of a hard read. But Josephus, (a Jewish Pharisee), even admits that according to the Old Testament and Talmudic traditions... that no one knew exactly what happened to Enoch or Elijah.
As you know well... I am not afraid to use your New World Translation,,, in support of Scripture. I looked up the verses about Enoch,,, and the Watchtower Society,,, may have another issue to reconcile.
In Genesis 5:24 YOUR version of the bible says this:
24 Eʹnoch kept walking with the true God.+ Then he was no more, for God took him.+
However... in Hebrews 11:5 Your version of the Bible says this:
5 By faith Eʹnoch+ was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him;+ for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.
This is where YOU get the idea that Elijah was transferred... even though there is no place in the Bible,, (or Your NWT that I know of), that mentions this. And only the NWT seems to use the wrod "transferred" in Hebrews 11:5. I think you are taking the word transferred,,, to literally. Especially since in other places of the Bible... you are willing to look beyond the literal word,,, and see a future prophetic meaning,,, that might not actually be there.
Many Christian versions of the Bible... use the word "translated" in Hebrews 11:5,,, because there is a lacking definition from Hebrew to Greek... for the word "metetethē" found in Hebrews 11:5
Looking into the English language and it's complexities... and using Strong's Concordance,,, I have learned that another definition for "metetethē"... is "change". So in light of that understanding... look at Hebrews 11:5 to say "By Faith, Enoch was changed, so as not to see death".
So how was Enoch "changed" Don??? And if Enoch was transferred in the same way as Elijah,,, why is there no further mention of Enoch after Genesis 5:24??? It's for the same reason that there was no mention of Elijah,,, after he was taken up in a chariot of fire in 2nd Kings chapter 2!!! BOTH Enoch and Elijah were "changed".
Neither were heard from again... because for some reason neither YOU nor I can explain,,, God held them in special regard. You don't have the answer about Enoch or Elijah,,, and neither do I. So stop pretending you have all the answers,,, because YOU DON'T!!! There are Jewish books,,, that Pre-Date parts of the Bible... that Jewish scholars are still in debate about,,, but are referenced in the Bible in a way that most people don't know about. Take the Book of Jude as an example. It references the Book of Enoch... and much more. It "refers" to a Jewish book,,, known as "The Assumption of Moses".
So in some way... Moses was also special to God. No one knows the ultimate reason for why God hid his body. Again... you don't know for sure,,, and neither do I... so stop pretending you have all of the answers!!! You are NOT God... so don't act like you have it all figured out!!! A person who thinks that, (or projects that image of themselves),,, is DANGEROUSLY CLOSE to both Heresy... and Blasphemy... JUST EXACTLY like the Jewish Pharisees did during the time Jesus walked the earth!!!
You STILL ignore the SCRIPTURAL FACT that THE MOMENT Jesus died... that "tombs were opened",,, and those, (people from the grave), were seen walking around Jerusalem.
AGAIN DON!!! Jesus took HIS throne the moment HE died... and THAT'S WHY AND WHEN the Fatihful "received the promise" mentioned in Hebrews. It didn't happen in the "midst of his enemies" in 1914... like you were taught to believe. In fact,,, if my understanding is correct... the JW's revised not only their beliefs,,, but the NWT too,,, when Jesus didn't come in 1914... which is why you believe what you believe now!!! NEITHER the BIBLE... Nor GOD"S WORD changes,,, just because a human is misguided in their own understanding!!!
I am very well aware of what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration... so there is no need to tell me,,, when you haven't responded about that in past posts where I mentioned it. Too late Don!!!
Quote Don:
"So you SHOULD listen to him,04,as God said, and BELIEVE that John 3:13 was NOT a lie spoken by Jesus,even though it has been told you from many years back."
Actually Don... I hadn't given much thought to John 3:13 before you mentioned it. So to ACCUSE that I have been TAUGHT a lie... is a misconception on your part. So Keep accusing!!! That's what satan does best!!! AND AGAIN... I don't think Jesus is lying!!! I just think there is more to what Jesus is saying,,, that EXCLUDES Enoch, Moses, AND Elijah. Maybe I am wrong... but I am sure I will find out someday. Actually... I look forward to finding out from God Himself!!! However,,, that doesn't mean I am going to accept YOUR truth... as GOD's truth. You ARE NOT God,,, so don't tell me you have it all figured out!!!
AGAIN Don... You don't perfectly know,,, because you are NOT God. So AGAIN... don't project yourself as one who has all of the anwers,,, because YOU DON'T!!!
Quote Don:
"How bout John the Baptist? Jesus said:`Among men born of women there was not a greater than John. But the least one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he."
Already went down that road with you many posts back Don... in post #303:
Quote myself... and You Don:
"Quote Don:
"OR do you think Jesus was lying when he said at Matt. 11:11-12 that even though John the Baptist was unsurpassed as a person in God's eyes, he was not in the same class as one of the LESSER ones in heaven."
Here we may have a slight "translation" ,(and/or interpretation), issue:
NWT:
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.+
NASB, (but all of 15 or so Christian translations say pretty much the same thing):
11“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Here in Matthew,,, Jesus is referencing himself... but that might be hard to understand because of how the NWT chooses it's wording. If you think I am wrong about my interpretation of Matthew 11,,, don't forget that the Bible also says "for a little while Jesus made himself lower than the Angels." In other words,,, for a little while Jesus made Himself the "least/lesser" in the Kingdom of Heaven... by becoming human."
End quote of post #303
Again Don... Jesus is referencing HIMSELF when He said this about John the Baptist,,, and made HIMSELF "least" in the Kindom of Heaven. That's why Jesus is STLL greater than John the Baptist... while John the Baptist was "unsurpassed as a person in God's eyes", (quoting your paraphrase of the Bible).
As I quoted Judge Judy as saying:
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to have a good memory"
Seems as though you don't have a good memory Don,,, because as in the other thread... you keep trying to take me in circles. Either that... or your twisting of my words is intentional to make yourself look credible. Thankfully... I do have a good memory,,, and I'm not gonna let you do that... AND I'm NOT gonna let YOU put words in my mouth,,, that I DID NOT say!!!
It seems it may be time for this thread to be "locked"... as happened in the last thread you and I got into a debate about Scripture and God.
WRM. The choice is yours and up to you. However,,, there is another way for everyone else to continue this discussion... without Don's interference.
I have figured out how to block a person... and ignore their posts. Just click on their name in this or any thread... then click on "view profile". When you get to that page... below their name,,, you will see a link to "add to ignore list". Just click on that link... and it will keep you from seeing any post they make "site wide".
I am going to do this regarding Don,,, and anyone who doesn't wish to listen to my BS anymore... is welcome to do the same to me.
So... "goodbye Don"!!! Have fun with your twisting of TRUTH and other people words,,, and your lies... and accusations elsewhere. I'm done with you!!! Once again you are getting another door closed in your face... mostly because your "beside manner",,, SUCKS... AND is self serving!!!
One last thing... Quote Cam to Don in post #338:
"Don, do you feel that you get 'brownie-points' from inanities?"
No Cam... Don thinks he gets brownie-points with God for proselytizing someone else to his beliefs. "Works" earning grace... rather than GRACE causing "works".
Goodbye Don... and good riddance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I agree that there was a co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram, (both of Judah). That just proves my point even more. Jehoram received the prophecy from Elijah during that time... BEFORE Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire. Try again!!!
Right after Elijah is taken up in 2nd Kings 2,,, you have 2nd Kings 3.
2nd kings 3 shows an alliance between Jehoram of Israel, and King Jehoshaphat... and Elisha is the prophet at that time. This was right after Elijah was taken up. This was during the co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram of Judah. So to dismiss the facts,,, in an attempt to support your views... is in errancy.
Also... 2nd Chronicles 22 wasn't the first time Elijah was in Judah. In 1st Kings 19,,, during the reign of Ahab... Elijah fled to Beersheba, (in Judah). Granted... Elijah was supposedly transported from place to place at times,,, just like some of the New Testament Apostles were... but at this point in Kings and Chronicles,,, Elijah was never seen or heard from again... until the Mount of Transfiguration.
I've also started digging into the writings of Josephus during the same time period. That is a bit of a hard read. But Josephus, (a Jewish Pharisee), even admits that according to the Old Testament and Talmudic traditions... that no one knew exactly what happened to Enoch or Elijah.
As you know well... I am not afraid to use your New World Translation,,, in support of Scripture. I looked up the verses about Enoch,,, and the Watchtower Society,,, may have another issue to reconcile.
In Genesis 5:24 YOUR version of the bible says this:
24 Eʹnoch kept walking with the true God.+ Then he was no more, for God took him.+
However... in Hebrews 11:5 Your version of the Bible says this:
5 By faith Eʹnoch+ was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him;+ for before he was transferred he received the witness that he had pleased God well.
This is where YOU get the idea that Elijah was transferred... even though there is no place in the Bible,, (or Your NWT that I know of), that mentions this. And only the NWT seems to use the wrod "transferred" in Hebrews 11:5. I think you are taking the word transferred,,, to literally. Especially since in other places of the Bible... you are willing to look beyond the literal word,,, and see a future prophetic meaning,,, that might not actually be there.
Many Christian versions of the Bible... use the word "translated" in Hebrews 11:5,,, because there is a lacking definition from Hebrew to Greek... for the word "metetethē" found in Hebrews 11:5
Looking into the English language and it's complexities... and using Strong's Concordance,,, I have learned that another definition for "metetethē"... is "change". So in light of that understanding... look at Hebrews 11:5 to say "By Faith, Enoch was changed, so as not to see death".
So how was Enoch "changed" Don??? And if Enoch was transferred in the same way as Elijah,,, why is there no further mention of Enoch after Genesis 5:24??? It's for the same reason that there was no mention of Elijah,,, after he was taken up in a chariot of fire in 2nd Kings chapter 2!!! BOTH Enoch and Elijah were "changed".
Neither were heard from again... because for some reason neither YOU nor I can explain,,, God held them in special regard. You don't have the answer about Enoch or Elijah,,, and neither do I. So stop pretending you have all the answers,,, because YOU DON'T!!! There are Jewish books,,, that Pre-Date parts of the Bible... that Jewish scholars are still in debate about,,, but are referenced in the Bible in a way that most people don't know about. Take the Book of Jude as an example. It references the Book of Enoch... and much more. It "refers" to a Jewish book,,, known as "The Assumption of Moses".
So in some way... Moses was also special to God. No one knows the ultimate reason for why God hid his body. Again... you don't know for sure,,, and neither do I... so stop pretending you have all of the answers!!! You are NOT God... so don't act like you have it all figured out!!! A person who thinks that, (or projects that image of themselves),,, is DANGEROUSLY CLOSE to both Heresy... and Blasphemy... JUST EXACTLY like the Jewish Pharisees did during the time Jesus walked the earth!!!
You STILL ignore the SCRIPTURAL FACT that THE MOMENT Jesus died... that "tombs were opened",,, and those, (people from the grave), were seen walking around Jerusalem.
AGAIN DON!!! Jesus took HIS throne the moment HE died... and THAT'S WHY AND WHEN the Fatihful "received the promise" mentioned in Hebrews. It didn't happen in the "midst of his enemies" in 1914... like you were taught to believe. In fact,,, if my understanding is correct... the JW's revised not only their beliefs,,, but the NWT too,,, when Jesus didn't come in 1914... which is why you believe what you believe now!!! NEITHER the BIBLE... Nor GOD"S WORD changes,,, just because a human is misguided in their own understanding!!!
I am very well aware of what happened on the Mount of Transfiguration... so there is no need to tell me,,, when you haven't responded about that in past posts where I mentioned it. Too late Don!!!
Quote Don:
"So you SHOULD listen to him,04,as God said, and BELIEVE that John 3:13 was NOT a lie spoken by Jesus,even though it has been told you from many years back."
Actually Don... I hadn't given much thought to John 3:13 before you mentioned it. So to ACCUSE that I have been TAUGHT a lie... is a misconception on your part. So Keep accusing!!! That's what satan does best!!! AND AGAIN... I don't think Jesus is lying!!! I just think there is more to what Jesus is saying,,, that EXCLUDES Enoch, Moses, AND Elijah. Maybe I am wrong... but I am sure I will find out someday. Actually... I look forward to finding out from God Himself!!! However,,, that doesn't mean I am going to accept YOUR truth... as GOD's truth. You ARE NOT God,,, so don't tell me you have it all figured out!!!
AGAIN Don... You don't perfectly know,,, because you are NOT God. So AGAIN... don't project yourself as one who has all of the anwers,,, because YOU DON'T!!!
Quote Don:
"How bout John the Baptist? Jesus said:`Among men born of women there was not a greater than John. But the least one in the kingdom of the heavens is greater than he."
Already went down that road with you many posts back Don... in post #303:
Quote myself... and You Don:
"Quote Don:
"OR do you think Jesus was lying when he said at Matt. 11:11-12 that even though John the Baptist was unsurpassed as a person in God's eyes, he was not in the same class as one of the LESSER ones in heaven."
Here we may have a slight "translation" ,(and/or interpretation), issue:
NWT:
11 Truly I say to you, among those born of women, there has not been raised up anyone greater than John the Baptist, but a lesser person in the Kingdom of the heavens is greater than he is.+
NASB, (but all of 15 or so Christian translations say pretty much the same thing):
11“Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
Here in Matthew,,, Jesus is referencing himself... but that might be hard to understand because of how the NWT chooses it's wording. If you think I am wrong about my interpretation of Matthew 11,,, don't forget that the Bible also says "for a little while Jesus made himself lower than the Angels." In other words,,, for a little while Jesus made Himself the "least/lesser" in the Kingdom of Heaven... by becoming human."
End quote of post #303
Again Don... Jesus is referencing HIMSELF when He said this about John the Baptist,,, and made HIMSELF "least" in the Kindom of Heaven. That's why Jesus is STLL greater than John the Baptist... while John the Baptist was "unsurpassed as a person in God's eyes", (quoting your paraphrase of the Bible).
As I quoted Judge Judy as saying:
"If you tell the truth, you don't have to have a good memory"
Seems as though you don't have a good memory Don,,, because as in the other thread... you keep trying to take me in circles. Either that... or your twisting of my words is intentional to make yourself look credible. Thankfully... I do have a good memory,,, and I'm not gonna let you do that... AND I'm NOT gonna let YOU put words in my mouth,,, that I DID NOT say!!!
It seems it may be time for this thread to be "locked"... as happened in the last thread you and I got into a debate about Scripture and God.
WRM. The choice is yours and up to you. However,,, there is another way for everyone else to continue this discussion... without Don's interference.
I have figured out how to block a person... and ignore their posts. Just click on their name in this or any thread... then click on "view profile". When you get to that page... below their name,,, you will see a link to "add to ignore list". Just click on that link... and it will keep you from seeing any post they make "site wide".
I am going to do this regarding Don,,, and anyone who doesn't wish to listen to my BS anymore... is welcome to do the same to me.
So... "goodbye Don"!!! Have fun with your twisting of TRUTH and other people words,,, and your lies... and accusations elsewhere. I'm done with you!!! Once again you are getting another door closed in your face... mostly because your "beside manner",,, SUCKS... AND is self serving!!!
One last thing... Quote Cam to Don in post #338:
"Don, do you feel that you get 'brownie-points' from inanities?"
No Cam... Don thinks he gets brownie-points with God for proselytizing someone else to his beliefs. "Works" earning grace... rather than GRACE causing "works".
Goodbye Don... and good riddance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
I forgot one last thing.
Quote Don:
"It was a faith-strengthing VISION (Matt. 17:9) which bolstered Jesus,and Peter,James, and John."
This is BS Don,,, because Jesus didn't need any "bolstering"!!! On top of that,,, is was the second time God said the same thing about Jesus. The first was HIS baptism by John the Baptist. So again Don,,, Jesus made himself "lesser/least" in the Kindom of Heaven... by allowing Himself to be baptized by John the Baptist!!! You just proved another point I was trying to make,,, by trying to disprove me.
Good riddance Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote Don:
"It was a faith-strengthing VISION (Matt. 17:9) which bolstered Jesus,and Peter,James, and John."
This is BS Don,,, because Jesus didn't need any "bolstering"!!! On top of that,,, is was the second time God said the same thing about Jesus. The first was HIS baptism by John the Baptist. So again Don,,, Jesus made himself "lesser/least" in the Kindom of Heaven... by allowing Himself to be baptized by John the Baptist!!! You just proved another point I was trying to make,,, by trying to disprove me.
Good riddance Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Don,
You have sucessfully been added to my "ignore list". I no longer have to look at any of the venom you have said in this thread. What a relief.
Goodbye Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
You have sucessfully been added to my "ignore list". I no longer have to look at any of the venom you have said in this thread. What a relief.
Goodbye Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
I'm left with an observation---or perhaps a couple.
As an observer to the ongoing-ness of the above exchange, Don's approach is to try to talk down from lofty wonderfulness. He's in agony to prove his positions. My family background has prepared me for the holes in his approach.
04, on the other hand is a scholar who has taken the time to explore with us on this subject. There is a flavor of expounding rather than preaching.
I've enjoyed my observations.
KS
As an observer to the ongoing-ness of the above exchange, Don's approach is to try to talk down from lofty wonderfulness. He's in agony to prove his positions. My family background has prepared me for the holes in his approach.
04, on the other hand is a scholar who has taken the time to explore with us on this subject. There is a flavor of expounding rather than preaching.
I've enjoyed my observations.
KS
Any honest-hearted ones out there that BELIEVE Jesus when he made wonderful statements revealing Bible truths,such as at:
John 3:13, Matt 5:5, and Jesus's PRAYER at John 17: 25 'Righteous Father, the world has indeed NOT come to know you, but I have come to know you, and THESE HAVE come to know that YOU SENT ME FORTH. And I have made your NAME(which is Yahweh or Jehovah) known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I one with them.'
Obeying Jesus and honoring his Father's name are very important.
At EXODUS Chapter 20: 2 God gives His name(YHWH,with vowels added Yahweh)), reminds the Israelites what He's done for them, and tells them to have NO OTHER GODS against His face.
Jesus is insulted by the Triune doctrine(the trinity) today, making Jesus equal to God. Look at his prayer to Yahweh above again.
We are living deep into the last days. Pray to Yahweh or use the English Jehovah, and ask for the true God to deliver us from the evil soon to come. His angels are looking for the honest-hearted seekers of truth. Read Matt 13:39
We can all be part of the new earth in which sin is no more. Just like Adam WOULD have started if Satan hadn't deceived Eve and Adam followed her lead. Think of God's original purpose for this Earth,6000 yrs. ago.
Don't be fooled by anyone who teaches EVERYONE righteous goes to Heaven. The majority of righteous ones will populate the Earth along with MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of resurrected ones brought back to life on earth by Jesus.
don-ohio^)
John 3:13, Matt 5:5, and Jesus's PRAYER at John 17: 25 'Righteous Father, the world has indeed NOT come to know you, but I have come to know you, and THESE HAVE come to know that YOU SENT ME FORTH. And I have made your NAME(which is Yahweh or Jehovah) known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I one with them.'
Obeying Jesus and honoring his Father's name are very important.
At EXODUS Chapter 20: 2 God gives His name(YHWH,with vowels added Yahweh)), reminds the Israelites what He's done for them, and tells them to have NO OTHER GODS against His face.
Jesus is insulted by the Triune doctrine(the trinity) today, making Jesus equal to God. Look at his prayer to Yahweh above again.
We are living deep into the last days. Pray to Yahweh or use the English Jehovah, and ask for the true God to deliver us from the evil soon to come. His angels are looking for the honest-hearted seekers of truth. Read Matt 13:39
We can all be part of the new earth in which sin is no more. Just like Adam WOULD have started if Satan hadn't deceived Eve and Adam followed her lead. Think of God's original purpose for this Earth,6000 yrs. ago.
Don't be fooled by anyone who teaches EVERYONE righteous goes to Heaven. The majority of righteous ones will populate the Earth along with MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of resurrected ones brought back to life on earth by Jesus.
don-ohio
^)Quote 04: `
I agree that there was a co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram, (both of Judah). That just proves my point even more. Jehoram received the prophecy from Elijah during that time... BEFORE Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire. Try again!!! END QUOTE
Do you honestly believe that Jehoshaphat stood by while Jehoram KILLED Jehoshaphat's other sons? That's inane! The prophecy was uttered BECAUSE of Jehoram's wickedness, AFTER Jehoshaphat was out of the way. Use your head! don-ohio^)
I agree that there was a co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram, (both of Judah). That just proves my point even more. Jehoram received the prophecy from Elijah during that time... BEFORE Elijah was taken up in a chariot of fire. Try again!!! END QUOTE
Do you honestly believe that Jehoshaphat stood by while Jehoram KILLED Jehoshaphat's other sons? That's inane! The prophecy was uttered BECAUSE of Jehoram's wickedness, AFTER Jehoshaphat was out of the way. Use your head! don-ohio
^)cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Ho Hum
KS
KS
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Well...
Unfortunately since I am still subscribed to this thread,,, the e-mail notifications I get... still show Don's BS. :-(
Quote Cam:
"As an observer to the ongoing-ness of the above exchange, Don's approach is to try to talk down from lofty wonderfulness. He's in agony to prove his positions. My family background has prepared me for the holes in his approach.
04, on the other hand is a scholar who has taken the time to explore with us on this subject. There is a flavor of expounding rather than preaching.
I've enjoyed my observations."
First:
Thanks Cam. Being a "lay" person,,, I consider what you said as high praise... especially since you have a seminary/scholarly back ground.
Second:
Don's not talking down to anyone. He is just mistakenly fixated on proselytizing people to his faith,,, even though his outlook on the Bible is skewed. Again... Don THINKS he earns God's favor, (hoping he will be one of the 144,000), but completely misses the mark if he is ignoring people in physical or emotional need... that could use other assistance besides getting a belief system pushed on them.
Sadly... it seems that Don is blind to Jesus' warnings,,, by doing exactly what the pharisees did... while they ignored the suffering of others.
Unfortunately since I am still subscribed to this thread,,, the e-mail notifications I get... still show Don's BS. :-(
Quote Cam:
"As an observer to the ongoing-ness of the above exchange, Don's approach is to try to talk down from lofty wonderfulness. He's in agony to prove his positions. My family background has prepared me for the holes in his approach.
04, on the other hand is a scholar who has taken the time to explore with us on this subject. There is a flavor of expounding rather than preaching.
I've enjoyed my observations."
First:
Thanks Cam. Being a "lay" person,,, I consider what you said as high praise... especially since you have a seminary/scholarly back ground.
Second:
Don's not talking down to anyone. He is just mistakenly fixated on proselytizing people to his faith,,, even though his outlook on the Bible is skewed. Again... Don THINKS he earns God's favor, (hoping he will be one of the 144,000), but completely misses the mark if he is ignoring people in physical or emotional need... that could use other assistance besides getting a belief system pushed on them.
Sadly... it seems that Don is blind to Jesus' warnings,,, by doing exactly what the pharisees did... while they ignored the suffering of others.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don:
"Do you honestly believe that Jehoshaphat stood by while Jehoram KILLED Jehoshaphat's other sons? That's inane! The prophecy was uttered BECAUSE of Jehoram's wickedness, AFTER Jehoshaphat was out of the way. Use your head!"
I have been using my head Don... and SCRIPTURE TOO!!! Hey,,, you're the one that pointed out the co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram,,, unless you've edited that post too. And I agreed with that. You were the one that brought up 2nd Chronicles 21... in an attempt to show that Elijah was transported to his "next' assignment in Judah. But I disagree with that!!!
All I did was study SCRIPTURE... and put together a bunch of points in Scripture,,, that show there was no way Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram after Elijah was taken up in 2nd Kings chapter 2. The overlapping history between Kings and Chronicles... pretty much proves that!!!
Again... YOU ARE NOT GOD!!! And you are NOT Elijah either!!! You don't know what happened... but it's OBVIOUS that you like to cherry pick Bible verses,,, and TWIST SCRIPTURE... in your attempt to proselytize people to your religion. Same as the pharisees did before, during, and after Jesus walked the earth!!!
Matthew 23:15 NWT
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!+ because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte,* and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna* twice as much so as yourselves.
Matthew 23:15 (NASB)
15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Fine Don... we can use the NWT version this time,,, which uses the word Gehenna. If you study what Gehenna actually was in Jesus' day... it was a garbage pit in the valley of Hinnom,,, where people burned EVERYTHING... and the fires never went out. Another perfect metaphorical illustration by the TRUE AUTHOR of the Bible, (GOD), showing what the eternal torment would be like.
AGAIN DON... get off the Bible preaching thing... and actually preach the Bible by helping others in need!!!! Use your hands, feet... and resources, (money, car, tools, or other non-Biblical knowledge), to help a person UP in life.
Saint Francis of Assisi,,, paraphrased Jesus' teaching at one point and said... "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."
So SHUT YOUR MOUTH DON... and LIVE the GOSPEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Do you honestly believe that Jehoshaphat stood by while Jehoram KILLED Jehoshaphat's other sons? That's inane! The prophecy was uttered BECAUSE of Jehoram's wickedness, AFTER Jehoshaphat was out of the way. Use your head!"
I have been using my head Don... and SCRIPTURE TOO!!! Hey,,, you're the one that pointed out the co-regency with Jehoshaphat and Jehoram,,, unless you've edited that post too. And I agreed with that. You were the one that brought up 2nd Chronicles 21... in an attempt to show that Elijah was transported to his "next' assignment in Judah. But I disagree with that!!!
All I did was study SCRIPTURE... and put together a bunch of points in Scripture,,, that show there was no way Elijah wrote the letter to Jehoram after Elijah was taken up in 2nd Kings chapter 2. The overlapping history between Kings and Chronicles... pretty much proves that!!!
Again... YOU ARE NOT GOD!!! And you are NOT Elijah either!!! You don't know what happened... but it's OBVIOUS that you like to cherry pick Bible verses,,, and TWIST SCRIPTURE... in your attempt to proselytize people to your religion. Same as the pharisees did before, during, and after Jesus walked the earth!!!
Matthew 23:15 NWT
15 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!+ because you travel over sea and dry land to make one proselyte,* and when he becomes one, you make him a subject for Ge·henʹna* twice as much so as yourselves.
Matthew 23:15 (NASB)
15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
Fine Don... we can use the NWT version this time,,, which uses the word Gehenna. If you study what Gehenna actually was in Jesus' day... it was a garbage pit in the valley of Hinnom,,, where people burned EVERYTHING... and the fires never went out. Another perfect metaphorical illustration by the TRUE AUTHOR of the Bible, (GOD), showing what the eternal torment would be like.
AGAIN DON... get off the Bible preaching thing... and actually preach the Bible by helping others in need!!!! Use your hands, feet... and resources, (money, car, tools, or other non-Biblical knowledge), to help a person UP in life.
Saint Francis of Assisi,,, paraphrased Jesus' teaching at one point and said... "Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words."
So SHUT YOUR MOUTH DON... and LIVE the GOSPEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Cam,,,
My family, (and several pastors over the years), warned me about false teachers too. As mentioned in an earlier post,,, as a young teen... I saw my mom, (that raised me), and our pastor at the time... shut down "door knockers",,, and leave them befuddled, (that's probaly a word you have heard used in a long time).
On top of that... being that my own paternal grandmother was a "witness",,, I took the time roughly 25 years ago... to study her beliefs. Didn't add up back then,,, and they still don't. Around the same time was when I met the "witness" co-worker... and he shared more with me than he probably should have.
During that same time,,, on the same job... I had a mentor named Larry, (double my age at the time), that was a double kidney transplant receiver... who had a very strong faith in God. He was needing another kidney at the time,,, so I know much of his story. He and I studied the Bible whenever we had spare time.
Larry was very instrumental in me seeking being baptized roughly 16 years ago... at the church I was attending at the time. Same church I left after 16 years when the newest pastor turned to Universalism. Even though I had been 'infant baptized"... by studying God's word back at my old church,,, I knew that salvation was a personal choice of the individual... and that the choice to be baptized was a profession of my FAITH!!!
Doesn't mean that I have walked a perfect line since then... but I know "I AM" forgiven. While I know my reward won't be as much as it could have been,,, all that matters... is knowing that I will be in the prescence of God!!!!
1st Corinthians 3:10-15 (NASB)
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Some of the work I have built on,,, will remain... because it is not based on what I did for me... but instead because of what I did out of a love for God. Some of what I have done,,, will be burnt up... because I was serving myself out of a love for me. In the end... my FAITH in GOD, (with Jesus being God in the flesh)... and my trust in Jesus as MY SAVIOR,,, will be what gives me the right to be found "righteous" from God's standpoint.
Cam... I know you know what I am saying in the last paragraph... but I think you also know why I said it.
My family, (and several pastors over the years), warned me about false teachers too. As mentioned in an earlier post,,, as a young teen... I saw my mom, (that raised me), and our pastor at the time... shut down "door knockers",,, and leave them befuddled, (that's probaly a word you have heard used in a long time).
On top of that... being that my own paternal grandmother was a "witness",,, I took the time roughly 25 years ago... to study her beliefs. Didn't add up back then,,, and they still don't. Around the same time was when I met the "witness" co-worker... and he shared more with me than he probably should have.
During that same time,,, on the same job... I had a mentor named Larry, (double my age at the time), that was a double kidney transplant receiver... who had a very strong faith in God. He was needing another kidney at the time,,, so I know much of his story. He and I studied the Bible whenever we had spare time.
Larry was very instrumental in me seeking being baptized roughly 16 years ago... at the church I was attending at the time. Same church I left after 16 years when the newest pastor turned to Universalism. Even though I had been 'infant baptized"... by studying God's word back at my old church,,, I knew that salvation was a personal choice of the individual... and that the choice to be baptized was a profession of my FAITH!!!
Doesn't mean that I have walked a perfect line since then... but I know "I AM" forgiven. While I know my reward won't be as much as it could have been,,, all that matters... is knowing that I will be in the prescence of God!!!!
1st Corinthians 3:10-15 (NASB)
10According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it. 11For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
Some of the work I have built on,,, will remain... because it is not based on what I did for me... but instead because of what I did out of a love for God. Some of what I have done,,, will be burnt up... because I was serving myself out of a love for me. In the end... my FAITH in GOD, (with Jesus being God in the flesh)... and my trust in Jesus as MY SAVIOR,,, will be what gives me the right to be found "righteous" from God's standpoint.
Cam... I know you know what I am saying in the last paragraph... but I think you also know why I said it.
Nice to be on your ignore....LOL!
Still trying to prove Christ a liar, I see. Can't help you there.
Don't see you tackling the BIG truths of the Bible as regards the resurrections, life on a paradise Earth, the ruling class of 144,000 of Christ's brothers taken from among mankind.
Mainly you avoid talk of the healing of mankind and return to perfection as Adam and Eve had.
Remember, 04, God is only drawing honest-hearted ones to the truth.....not ones who reject scriptural teachings and statements by Christ our Redeemer, His son.. don-ohio^)
Still trying to prove Christ a liar, I see. Can't help you there.
Don't see you tackling the BIG truths of the Bible as regards the resurrections, life on a paradise Earth, the ruling class of 144,000 of Christ's brothers taken from among mankind.
Mainly you avoid talk of the healing of mankind and return to perfection as Adam and Eve had.
Remember, 04, God is only drawing honest-hearted ones to the truth.....not ones who reject scriptural teachings and statements by Christ our Redeemer, His son.. don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Sorry Cam.
Thought I was done and rid of Don. The only way is if I unsubscribe to this thread,,, and I don't want to do that... because i would like to continue other discussions with other people. Maybe we could continue our own discussion as well.
Thought I was done and rid of Don. The only way is if I unsubscribe to this thread,,, and I don't want to do that... because i would like to continue other discussions with other people. Maybe we could continue our own discussion as well.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don:
"Don't see you tackling the BIG truths of the Bible as regards the resurrections, life on a paradise Earth, the ruling class of 144,000 of Christ's brothers taken from among mankind.
Mainly you avoid talk of the healing of mankind and return to perfection as Adam and Eve had."
Don,,, these are STRICTLY beliefs of the Jehovah Witnesses... and I DO NOT, NOR WILL I EVERRRRRRR subscribe to them. Your 'big truths"... are miniscule in the eyes of God,,, and also falsehood. Yes... MAN's relationsip with God IS restored,,, but only for those who trust Him.... AND it happened the moment Jesus died!!! Again... that's why the tombs of SOME of the dead were opened the moment Jesus died!!! It didn't happen in 1914... which again,,, is why the JW's had to "re-write" parts of the Bible... or adjust their beliefs.
Try again Don!!!
The "healing of mankind", (as you put it), is only for those who seek it. Jesus is very clear about what happens to those who do not want anything to do with God, (or Jesus Himself).
Learned a loooong time ago,,, that I will NEVER figure God out,,, so I don't try anymore. HE will do what HE wills... based on the HEART, (not mind), of the individual.
YOU made Elijah a "big truth",,, not me. So I did the research and studied the Bible... and it seems very clear that you are wrong about Elijah. So now you attack and accuse me in other ways. It's All part of your tactics that you have been taught to use... and I am well aware of it. Like I said in the other thread... other people see it too.
So keep accusing Don!!! satan has you right where he WANTS you.
Been doing some more Bible study on other things i have said... and YES,,, Jesus came for the Jews.
Matthew 15:24
NWT:
24 He answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
NASB:
24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
HOWEVER... if a person were to study the Bible,,, they would find that the some, (and eventually the rest), of the Apostles realized that they were to spread the message of salvation to the Gentiles, (through the sacrifice of Christ). Look at the dream God gave Peter about the animals on the sheet!!! Surely you know the story of Cornelius... and how his whole family was saved!!!!
Acts 10:34-39
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem.
Take a second look at verse 35:
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Check it with your own NWT!!!
What about Paul???
Acts 22:21
21“And He said to me, ‘Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Sorry Don... you are nothing more than a Gentile, (unless you have true Jewish roots and meet other Biblical criteria,,, which you don't appear to)... so if the 144,000 is an actual literal number, (as you believe), you are not going to be a "transplant" Jew. Those positions are already reserved for True Jews, that kept themselves undefiled by the world, (when ever they lived),,, whether the number is literal or not.
As the New Testament says... salvation was offered first to the Jew,,, then to the Gentile. The New Testament also says that we as Gentiles are "grafted in to the root as a branch"... so we cannot ignore the "root", (true jews). So for at least the 3rd time Don... becareful what you say,,, and how you think about the Jews!!!!!!!!!
AND AGAIN... I see that you are trying to take me in circles once more,,, so I am done!!! Come back when you have some new material... because at this point you've run out of arguments/conversion material. This is getting old!!!!
Again Don... LIVE THE GOSPEL,,, instead of PREACHING it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Don't see you tackling the BIG truths of the Bible as regards the resurrections, life on a paradise Earth, the ruling class of 144,000 of Christ's brothers taken from among mankind.
Mainly you avoid talk of the healing of mankind and return to perfection as Adam and Eve had."
Don,,, these are STRICTLY beliefs of the Jehovah Witnesses... and I DO NOT, NOR WILL I EVERRRRRRR subscribe to them. Your 'big truths"... are miniscule in the eyes of God,,, and also falsehood. Yes... MAN's relationsip with God IS restored,,, but only for those who trust Him.... AND it happened the moment Jesus died!!! Again... that's why the tombs of SOME of the dead were opened the moment Jesus died!!! It didn't happen in 1914... which again,,, is why the JW's had to "re-write" parts of the Bible... or adjust their beliefs.
Try again Don!!!
The "healing of mankind", (as you put it), is only for those who seek it. Jesus is very clear about what happens to those who do not want anything to do with God, (or Jesus Himself).
Learned a loooong time ago,,, that I will NEVER figure God out,,, so I don't try anymore. HE will do what HE wills... based on the HEART, (not mind), of the individual.
YOU made Elijah a "big truth",,, not me. So I did the research and studied the Bible... and it seems very clear that you are wrong about Elijah. So now you attack and accuse me in other ways. It's All part of your tactics that you have been taught to use... and I am well aware of it. Like I said in the other thread... other people see it too.
So keep accusing Don!!! satan has you right where he WANTS you.
Been doing some more Bible study on other things i have said... and YES,,, Jesus came for the Jews.
Matthew 15:24
NWT:
24 He answered: “I was not sent to anyone except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
NASB:
24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
HOWEVER... if a person were to study the Bible,,, they would find that the some, (and eventually the rest), of the Apostles realized that they were to spread the message of salvation to the Gentiles, (through the sacrifice of Christ). Look at the dream God gave Peter about the animals on the sheet!!! Surely you know the story of Cornelius... and how his whole family was saved!!!!
Acts 10:34-39
34Opening his mouth, Peter said:
“I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, 35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him. 36“The word which He sent to the sons of Israel, preaching peace through Jesus Christ (He is Lord of all)— 37you yourselves know the thing which took place throughout all Judea, starting from Galilee, after the baptism which John proclaimed. 38“You know of Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. 39“We are witnesses of all the things He did both in the land of the Jews and in Jerusalem.
Take a second look at verse 35:
35but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
Check it with your own NWT!!!
What about Paul???
Acts 22:21
21“And He said to me, ‘Go! For I will send you far away to the Gentiles.’”
Sorry Don... you are nothing more than a Gentile, (unless you have true Jewish roots and meet other Biblical criteria,,, which you don't appear to)... so if the 144,000 is an actual literal number, (as you believe), you are not going to be a "transplant" Jew. Those positions are already reserved for True Jews, that kept themselves undefiled by the world, (when ever they lived),,, whether the number is literal or not.
As the New Testament says... salvation was offered first to the Jew,,, then to the Gentile. The New Testament also says that we as Gentiles are "grafted in to the root as a branch"... so we cannot ignore the "root", (true jews). So for at least the 3rd time Don... becareful what you say,,, and how you think about the Jews!!!!!!!!!
AND AGAIN... I see that you are trying to take me in circles once more,,, so I am done!!! Come back when you have some new material... because at this point you've run out of arguments/conversion material. This is getting old!!!!
Again Don... LIVE THE GOSPEL,,, instead of PREACHING it !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
One last thought for everyone:
Wanna know the difference between HELPING someone,,, and ENABLEING them??? If you HELP a person... You RAISE them up to your level. If you ENABLE a person... They drag YOU down to THEIR level.
Helping a person in crisis,,, to stay in the situation they are in... is not showing them the love of God. Helping a person out of the situation they are in... is how you show them the love of God. Sometimes that means telling a person "no"... or NOT enabling them to stay in the situation they are in.
Wanna know the difference between HELPING someone,,, and ENABLEING them??? If you HELP a person... You RAISE them up to your level. If you ENABLE a person... They drag YOU down to THEIR level.
Helping a person in crisis,,, to stay in the situation they are in... is not showing them the love of God. Helping a person out of the situation they are in... is how you show them the love of God. Sometimes that means telling a person "no"... or NOT enabling them to stay in the situation they are in.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
Jesus came to the Jews because HE had to have a place to start. His entire ministry was only about three years. But HE adjured 'go make disciples'. HE started a movement that has spread over most of the earth, although there are small pockets here and there who've not yet heard.
04, you do a good thing. We are only expected to do our best. And our best will be better tomorrow than it was today, generally speaking.
KS
04, you do a good thing. We are only expected to do our best. And our best will be better tomorrow than it was today, generally speaking.
KS
04, you are not following the theme of the Bible,God's Kingdom. You are showing NO CONCERN over the restoration of the paradise Earth to pre-sin conditions. You believe God is abandoning His purpose to restore perfect Mankind to paradise on this Earth.
Therefore you cannot help anyone find the truth in Christ, because you deny the basics of God's restoration plan and purpose.
You ALSO do not believe Christ when he tells you something of greatest importance at John 3:13.
So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true?
You are like the Jews who said to Christ Jesus......`You are not greater than our father,Abraham' .........and when Jesus said that `before Abraham was, he(Jesus) was', they were incensed at him.
You will never inherit God's Kingdom UNLESS you become as a little child, as Jesus said. Since you know so much more than Christ,there is no helping you.
don-ohio^)
Therefore you cannot help anyone find the truth in Christ, because you deny the basics of God's restoration plan and purpose.
You ALSO do not believe Christ when he tells you something of greatest importance at John 3:13.
So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true?
You are like the Jews who said to Christ Jesus......`You are not greater than our father,Abraham' .........and when Jesus said that `before Abraham was, he(Jesus) was', they were incensed at him.
You will never inherit God's Kingdom UNLESS you become as a little child, as Jesus said. Since you know so much more than Christ,there is no helping you.
don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Cam:
"Jesus came to the Jews because HE had to have a place to start. His entire ministry was only about three years. But HE adjured 'go make disciples'. HE started a movement that has spread over most of the earth, although there are small pockets here and there who've not yet heard.
04, you do a good thing. We are only expected to do our best. And our best will be better tomorrow than it was today, generally speaking.
KS "
I agree whole heartedly Cam. Not directed at you,,, but Jesus did say he came for the lost sheep of Israel, (I.E. the Jews). But yes... his ministry was open to ANYONE accepting and believing in THE ONE TRUE GOD. That is why,,, if further study is done on Bible verses surrounding Matthew 15:24,,, they will see a BIGGER picture. Jesus calls the woman a dog, (which has NOTHING to do with Gender), which is a test of her, (as a Gentile), faith about Jesus healing her sick daughter. The woman UNDERSTOOD WHO Jesus was/is... which is why Jesus commends the woman for her faith,,, and heals her sick daughter.
FAITH is the only answer,,, and THE only way to God. God is NOT a Genie in a bottle,,, and sometimes HIS plans don't match our idea of what should happen,,, that seems right in our eyes. But if we let God BE FIRST in our lives... in the end we will end up seeing the BETTER plan that God had for all of us. To God... the "ends" do justify the "means".
You know this Cam... so you know I am not trying to teach you. I'm just spouting to anyone who will listen.
"Jesus came to the Jews because HE had to have a place to start. His entire ministry was only about three years. But HE adjured 'go make disciples'. HE started a movement that has spread over most of the earth, although there are small pockets here and there who've not yet heard.
04, you do a good thing. We are only expected to do our best. And our best will be better tomorrow than it was today, generally speaking.
KS "
I agree whole heartedly Cam. Not directed at you,,, but Jesus did say he came for the lost sheep of Israel, (I.E. the Jews). But yes... his ministry was open to ANYONE accepting and believing in THE ONE TRUE GOD. That is why,,, if further study is done on Bible verses surrounding Matthew 15:24,,, they will see a BIGGER picture. Jesus calls the woman a dog, (which has NOTHING to do with Gender), which is a test of her, (as a Gentile), faith about Jesus healing her sick daughter. The woman UNDERSTOOD WHO Jesus was/is... which is why Jesus commends the woman for her faith,,, and heals her sick daughter.
FAITH is the only answer,,, and THE only way to God. God is NOT a Genie in a bottle,,, and sometimes HIS plans don't match our idea of what should happen,,, that seems right in our eyes. But if we let God BE FIRST in our lives... in the end we will end up seeing the BETTER plan that God had for all of us. To God... the "ends" do justify the "means".
You know this Cam... so you know I am not trying to teach you. I'm just spouting to anyone who will listen.
QUOTE 04: `Jesus calls the woman a dog.'
To test her faith, Jesus refers to the JEWS' NEGATIVE VIEW of people of other nationalities:
He said, “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.” (Matthew 15:26) In speaking of “little dogs,” or puppies, Jesus reveals his tender feelings toward non-Jews. The display of faith in Jesus resulted in Jesus healing her demon-possessed child.
don-ohio^)
To test her faith, Jesus refers to the JEWS' NEGATIVE VIEW of people of other nationalities:
He said, “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.” (Matthew 15:26) In speaking of “little dogs,” or puppies, Jesus reveals his tender feelings toward non-Jews. The display of faith in Jesus resulted in Jesus healing her demon-possessed child.
don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don:
"04, you are not following the theme of the Bible,God's Kingdom. You are showing NO CONCERN over the restoration of the paradise Earth to pre-sin conditions."
Again Don... this is a Jehovah Witness ideolgy and teaching. While sin will not be in God's future kingdom,,, it does not mean that ALL of humankind will be restored. Better re-read the last couple chapters of Revelation,,, because only those who have FAITH... will be in the "New Jerusalem",,, what ever it will look like.
Quote Don:
"You believe God is abandoning His purpose to restore perfect Mankind to paradise on this Earth.
Therefore you cannot help anyone find the truth in Christ, because you deny the basics of God's restoration plan and purpose."
No Don,,, that is your "accusation" of me... because of how you have been taught to interpret the Bible. Mankind was NEVER perfect!!! If they were... Adam and Eve NEVER would have fallen into temptation to satan. So don't try the Adam was a perfect man,,, and Jesus was a perfect man argument again. Did that with you roughly 200 posts ago... and you couldn't make up your mind who was perfect back then, (unless again,,, you have edited those posts... or maybe it was the "other" thread... either way,,, I don't care). Not going in circles with you anymore Don!!!
Quote Don:
"You ALSO do not believe Christ when he tells you something of greatest importance at John 3:13.
So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true? "
There you go again Don... putting false words in my mouth. I'm not gonna discuss John 3:13 with you anymore,,, simply because you see it only to mean one thing... that negates other parts of the Bible,,, while I see it excluding Enoch, Elijah, and Moses. If you won't spend the time doing the homework... as you have challenged me to do about the same,,, then I have nothing more to say to you about this subject!!!!! Come back to me when you have a better argument for your side!!!
Keep up the same old JW's tactics Don... attack and accuse. That's perfect because that usually indicates,,, that when a person does that... they have run out of options for their version of the truth.
Quote Don:
"So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true? "
Don... I'm not angry at you. I'm just tired of your same old rhetoric... and going in circles with you. AGAIN... go LIVE THE GOSPEL,,, instead of PREACHING it. I'm not shaking my fist at Christ, (not too often I hear you call Jesus that)... but I Know,,, that even if I don't understand everything, (like YOU project yourself to know)... I will understand in the end,,, when I am in God's PRESCIENCE.
Quote Don:
"You are like the Jews who said to Christ Jesus......`You are not greater than our father,Abraham' .........and when Jesus said that `before Abraham was, he(Jesus) was', they were incensed at him."
That's almost laughable Don... because you set yourself up in a way you may not understand, (while twisting what Jesus actually said).
I recognize the Scripture you are quoting,,, but not mentioning. The pharisees said this to Jesus,,, but you are quoting the NWT,,, And only HALF of the verse... which puts it in the negative towards Jesus,,, rather than being questioning by the pharisees in most Christian Scriptures.
John 8:53 NWT:
53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? The prophets also died. Who do you claim to be?”
John 8:53 NASB... (but again... all of 15 or more Christian versions say the same thing):
53 - "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
So SHAME on YOU Don... for trying to twist Scripture,,, in an attempt to make me a liar. YOU have hit a NEW LOW... in YOUR OWN attempt to make what you say,,, seem right. YOU BUSTED YOURSELF here,,, by trying that. Better leave now Don... before you insert BOTH feet in your mouth!!! EVEN YOUR NWT doesn't put the spin on that Scripture,,, that YOU INTENTIONALLY meant to do.
So... You BUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Try to make me a liar... and you made one of yourself!!! Keep doing satans work Don... he's VERY happy with YOU,,, but put his trust,,, in the wrong person.
TRY AGAIN DON!!!
Quote Don:
"You will never inherit God's Kingdom UNLESS you become as a little child, as Jesus said. Since you know so much more than Christ,there is no helping you."
See Don... there you go again making accusations or assumptions,,, when YOU know NOTHING about me. I have the FAITH of a little child... same as the woman that Jesus called a "dog". I trust GOD for my best interests,,, even when I have my own thoughts or intentions. GOD HAS MY BACK... BECAUSE OF MY FAITH IN HIM!!!
I know MUCH less than GOD,,, CHRIST,,, or the HOLY SPIRIT... but I DO TRUST THEM IMPLICENTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So for the first time in MANY MANY posts... you are finally correct. You cannot help me,,, but because I KNOW MY HELPER... that YOU don't!!!!
Goodbye Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOUR VENOM ISN"T WElCOME HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TRY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ELSEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"04, you are not following the theme of the Bible,God's Kingdom. You are showing NO CONCERN over the restoration of the paradise Earth to pre-sin conditions."
Again Don... this is a Jehovah Witness ideolgy and teaching. While sin will not be in God's future kingdom,,, it does not mean that ALL of humankind will be restored. Better re-read the last couple chapters of Revelation,,, because only those who have FAITH... will be in the "New Jerusalem",,, what ever it will look like.
Quote Don:
"You believe God is abandoning His purpose to restore perfect Mankind to paradise on this Earth.
Therefore you cannot help anyone find the truth in Christ, because you deny the basics of God's restoration plan and purpose."
No Don,,, that is your "accusation" of me... because of how you have been taught to interpret the Bible. Mankind was NEVER perfect!!! If they were... Adam and Eve NEVER would have fallen into temptation to satan. So don't try the Adam was a perfect man,,, and Jesus was a perfect man argument again. Did that with you roughly 200 posts ago... and you couldn't make up your mind who was perfect back then, (unless again,,, you have edited those posts... or maybe it was the "other" thread... either way,,, I don't care). Not going in circles with you anymore Don!!!
Quote Don:
"You ALSO do not believe Christ when he tells you something of greatest importance at John 3:13.
So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true? "
There you go again Don... putting false words in my mouth. I'm not gonna discuss John 3:13 with you anymore,,, simply because you see it only to mean one thing... that negates other parts of the Bible,,, while I see it excluding Enoch, Elijah, and Moses. If you won't spend the time doing the homework... as you have challenged me to do about the same,,, then I have nothing more to say to you about this subject!!!!! Come back to me when you have a better argument for your side!!!
Keep up the same old JW's tactics Don... attack and accuse. That's perfect because that usually indicates,,, that when a person does that... they have run out of options for their version of the truth.
Quote Don:
"So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true? "
Don... I'm not angry at you. I'm just tired of your same old rhetoric... and going in circles with you. AGAIN... go LIVE THE GOSPEL,,, instead of PREACHING it. I'm not shaking my fist at Christ, (not too often I hear you call Jesus that)... but I Know,,, that even if I don't understand everything, (like YOU project yourself to know)... I will understand in the end,,, when I am in God's PRESCIENCE.
Quote Don:
"You are like the Jews who said to Christ Jesus......`You are not greater than our father,Abraham' .........and when Jesus said that `before Abraham was, he(Jesus) was', they were incensed at him."
That's almost laughable Don... because you set yourself up in a way you may not understand, (while twisting what Jesus actually said).
I recognize the Scripture you are quoting,,, but not mentioning. The pharisees said this to Jesus,,, but you are quoting the NWT,,, And only HALF of the verse... which puts it in the negative towards Jesus,,, rather than being questioning by the pharisees in most Christian Scriptures.
John 8:53 NWT:
53 You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died, are you? The prophets also died. Who do you claim to be?”
John 8:53 NASB... (but again... all of 15 or more Christian versions say the same thing):
53 - "Surely You are not greater than our father Abraham, who died? The prophets died too; whom do You make Yourself out to be?"
So SHAME on YOU Don... for trying to twist Scripture,,, in an attempt to make me a liar. YOU have hit a NEW LOW... in YOUR OWN attempt to make what you say,,, seem right. YOU BUSTED YOURSELF here,,, by trying that. Better leave now Don... before you insert BOTH feet in your mouth!!! EVEN YOUR NWT doesn't put the spin on that Scripture,,, that YOU INTENTIONALLY meant to do.
So... You BUSTED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Try to make me a liar... and you made one of yourself!!! Keep doing satans work Don... he's VERY happy with YOU,,, but put his trust,,, in the wrong person.
TRY AGAIN DON!!!
Quote Don:
"You will never inherit God's Kingdom UNLESS you become as a little child, as Jesus said. Since you know so much more than Christ,there is no helping you."
See Don... there you go again making accusations or assumptions,,, when YOU know NOTHING about me. I have the FAITH of a little child... same as the woman that Jesus called a "dog". I trust GOD for my best interests,,, even when I have my own thoughts or intentions. GOD HAS MY BACK... BECAUSE OF MY FAITH IN HIM!!!
I know MUCH less than GOD,,, CHRIST,,, or the HOLY SPIRIT... but I DO TRUST THEM IMPLICENTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So for the first time in MANY MANY posts... you are finally correct. You cannot help me,,, but because I KNOW MY HELPER... that YOU don't!!!!
Goodbye Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GO AWAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
YOUR VENOM ISN"T WElCOME HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
TRY AGAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ELSEWHERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Is it any wonder it takes me a couple hours to respond to one of Don's posts?????????????? I will not get ensnared in his trickery!!!!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don in post #418... word for word... before he changes or edits it:
04, you are not following the theme of the Bible,God's Kingdom. You are showing NO CONCERN over the restoration of the paradise Earth to pre-sin conditions. You believe God is abandoning His purpose to restore perfect Mankind to paradise on this Earth.
Therefore you cannot help anyone find the truth in Christ, because you deny the basics of God's restoration plan and purpose.
You ALSO do not believe Christ when he tells you something of greatest importance at John 3:13.
So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true?
You are like the Jews who said to Christ Jesus......`You are not greater than our father,Abraham' .........and when Jesus said that `before Abraham was, he(Jesus) was', they were incensed at him.
You will never inherit God's Kingdom UNLESS you become as a little child, as Jesus said. Since you know so much more than Christ,there is no helping you.
don-ohio^)
04, you are not following the theme of the Bible,God's Kingdom. You are showing NO CONCERN over the restoration of the paradise Earth to pre-sin conditions. You believe God is abandoning His purpose to restore perfect Mankind to paradise on this Earth.
Therefore you cannot help anyone find the truth in Christ, because you deny the basics of God's restoration plan and purpose.
You ALSO do not believe Christ when he tells you something of greatest importance at John 3:13.
So rather than getting angry at the messenger, go ahead and shake your fist at Christ and ask him WHY he said something that you JUST KNOW couldn't be true?
You are like the Jews who said to Christ Jesus......`You are not greater than our father,Abraham' .........and when Jesus said that `before Abraham was, he(Jesus) was', they were incensed at him.
You will never inherit God's Kingdom UNLESS you become as a little child, as Jesus said. Since you know so much more than Christ,there is no helping you.
don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
You are not going to get off easy with me Don!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don:
"QUOTE 04: `Jesus calls the woman a dog.'
To test her faith, Jesus refers to the JEWS' NEGATIVE VIEW of people of other nationalities:
He said, “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.” (Matthew 15:26) In speaking of “little dogs,” or puppies, Jesus reveals his tender feelings toward non-Jews. The display of faith in Jesus resulted in Jesus healing her demon-possessed child.
don-ohio "
Awww... isn't that cute. So now you refer to Gentiles as someone who was so irresistable,,, that God couldn't say "no" to them. What a bunch of BS!!! Or she was so ignorant...that god couldn't help but love her. Again...what a bunch of BS.
Jesus tested her FAITH... and she BELIVED IN THE ONE TRUE GOD!!! THAT'S why Jesus healed her daughter!!!
You miss the story completely Don. Jesus was challenging her FAITH... as a test. She passed!!!
ONLY the NWT,,, uses the term "little dogs" in Matthew 15:25-27
Ooops... my mistake. Out of 24 Christian translations... one uses "puppies",,, and another uses "little dogs".
Doesn't matter much... because Jesus was calling the woman out on her FAITH,,, even though she wasn't a Jew. And AGAIN,,, she had enough FAITH for Jesus to heal her daughter.
So once again Don... you have pushed me. I did an Interlinear search on the word "dog" in Matthew 15,,, and it translates to "kynariois". So then I did another search,,, which led me to Stong's Concordance,,, in which one of the definitions was: "a house dog". So taking in again the complexities of the English language,,, the definition of "kynariois"... it means,,, "a common dog".
So the woman KNEW EXACTLY whatt Jesus was calling her... but she stood by her FAITH in THE ONE TRUE GOD,,, and that is once AGAIN... why Jesus healed her daughter.
Try again Don!!!!!
"QUOTE 04: `Jesus calls the woman a dog.'
To test her faith, Jesus refers to the JEWS' NEGATIVE VIEW of people of other nationalities:
He said, “It is not right to take the bread of the children and throw it to the little dogs.” (Matthew 15:26) In speaking of “little dogs,” or puppies, Jesus reveals his tender feelings toward non-Jews. The display of faith in Jesus resulted in Jesus healing her demon-possessed child.
don-ohio "
Awww... isn't that cute. So now you refer to Gentiles as someone who was so irresistable,,, that God couldn't say "no" to them. What a bunch of BS!!! Or she was so ignorant...that god couldn't help but love her. Again...what a bunch of BS.
Jesus tested her FAITH... and she BELIVED IN THE ONE TRUE GOD!!! THAT'S why Jesus healed her daughter!!!
You miss the story completely Don. Jesus was challenging her FAITH... as a test. She passed!!!
ONLY the NWT,,, uses the term "little dogs" in Matthew 15:25-27
Ooops... my mistake. Out of 24 Christian translations... one uses "puppies",,, and another uses "little dogs".
Doesn't matter much... because Jesus was calling the woman out on her FAITH,,, even though she wasn't a Jew. And AGAIN,,, she had enough FAITH for Jesus to heal her daughter.
So once again Don... you have pushed me. I did an Interlinear search on the word "dog" in Matthew 15,,, and it translates to "kynariois". So then I did another search,,, which led me to Stong's Concordance,,, in which one of the definitions was: "a house dog". So taking in again the complexities of the English language,,, the definition of "kynariois"... it means,,, "a common dog".
So the woman KNEW EXACTLY whatt Jesus was calling her... but she stood by her FAITH in THE ONE TRUE GOD,,, and that is once AGAIN... why Jesus healed her daughter.
Try again Don!!!!!