God is Only a Theory

Quote Cam:

"When my head is running in a philosophical vein, I would tend to re-read "The Problem of Pain".

Another good C.S. Lewis read, (or was that "The Problem With Pain"?)
 
Quote Don:

"What else gets thrown into that LAKE OF FIRE,04?
DEATH AND HELL along with the devil after the thousand years."

Really Don??? I think I might have mentioned some of those verses already.

Better go back and read Revelation 20:10!!! This talks about not only about satan, (or the "beast" or "false prophet")... but the "wicked" too.

Do I need to pull up all BIBLE Scripture... where JESUS himself talks about what happens to those who reject God,,, and where HE mentions "eternal torment"????????????? I can do it if you want,,, but I would rather not.

Just because Death and Hades get locked up with the anything evil,,, in a bottomless pit... doesn't mean the effects of those places stop. The metaphor in Revelation... is that they continue,,, for ever... Just like a "life sentence" in PRISON!!! "Eternal joy" is always being in the prescence of God. "Eternal torment" is always being in the abscence of God.

God has not yet fully removed his prescence from the earth,,, or the individuals spirit, (soul). However,,, those that reject god... remove their spirit from the prescence of God... AND,,, come eternity... God will be the gentleman that HE IS,,, and allow a persons own wishes.

Oh Don... I have a clue about the 144,000. It just doesn't match up to what ypou have been taught to believe. You believe only 144,000 Jehovah Witnesses will be the 144,000 and that NONE of them will be Jews. AGAIN Don... there are over 8 million Jehovah Witnesses,,, of which 2 million... or 5 million,,, can self prclaim themselves as on of the 144,000. That creates quite a dilemma for your RELIGION.

JESUS CHRIST did NOT come to form another religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He came first for the "lost house of Israel",,, and through that salvation was offered to the Gentiles, (any non Jew who has Faith in the one TRUE God).

As far as Jesus metioning eternal torment... Look at the story of Lazarus and the rich man.

LUKE 16:19-31: (and YES DON!!! I am using your own NEW WOLD TRANSLATION... so you can't argue with me)

19 “There was a rich man who used to dress in purple and linen, enjoying himself day after day with magnificence. 20 But a beggar named Lazʹa·rus used to be put at his gate, covered with ulcers 21 and desiring to be filled with the things dropping from the table of the rich man. Yes, even the dogs would come and lick his ulcers. 22 Now in the course of time, the beggar died and was carried off by the angels to Abraham’s side.*

“Also, the rich man died and was buried. 23 And in the Grave* he lifted up his eyes, being in torment, and he saw Abraham from afar and Lazʹa·rus by his side.* 24 So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazʹa·rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’ 25 But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you had your fill of good things in your lifetime, but Lazʹa·rus for his part received bad things. Now, however, he is being comforted here, but you are in anguish. 26 And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and you, so that those who want to go over from here to you cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’ 27 Then he said, ‘That being so, I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father, 28 for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness so that they will not also come into this place of torment.’ 29 But Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to these.’+ 30 Then he said, ‘No, indeed, father Abraham, but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 But he said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses+ and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises from the dead.’”

AND... in this case DON,,, the "dogs" are not a sub-class of people,,, but are actuall "dogs". So within the metaphor Jesus is painting,,, about what Hell will be like... there is no other metaphor.
 
Cam,

Just so you know,,, when I asked about my "exegesis"... it was presented in a way Don would understand. Not necessairily how you or I would think about things. Does that help?
 
I should mention to others... that in post #477,,, where the NWT mentions "the beggar died and was carried off by the angels to Abraham’s side.*"... in Luke 16:22. Some,,, if not most Chistian translations... use the term "Abraham's bosom".

If a person were to take the time to study the Jewish side of things,,, they would understand that "Abraham's bosom"... was a place of the dead, (grave... know as Sheol or Hades... or Hell,,, depending on Greek and/or Hebrew), where the Faithful remained until the "Messiah" came... when they would eventually be restored to everlasting life, (those of TRUE faith anyway).

Sooooo... when Revelation mentions that DEATH and HELL, (as Don puts it)... are cast into the bottomless pit in chains... to one degree,,, Revelations says the Death and Hell... are no longer needed. BUT... at the same time,,, threre appears to be a "double metaphor" here... because the devil/satan,,, and his minions... plus those who rose in defiance against God,,, also go to the same place. So the "bottomless pit" also seems to be a prison... from which there is no escape.

Due to the second part of the metphor,,, some people and/or Christians... believe that the soul no longer exists,,, which is a term/belief called Annihilationism... where a person/soul just completely ceases to exist,,, permanently.

https://www.google.com/webhp#q=annihilationism


Annihilationism (also known as extinctionism or destructionism) is a Christian belief that at the Last Judgment those not receiving salvation are destined for total destruction, not everlasting torment.

Doesn't fit with what Jesus had to say about the rich man and Lazarus!!!! In that Bible Scripture,,, only the "rich man" was in torment... while Lazarus was awating resurrection.
 
Quote Don post #475:

"God is not unrighteous as the world of so-called Christianity PAINTS Him..............He would NEVER torture anyone,but simply will fulfill Adam's sentence upon them....they will die."

That statement is completely off target Don... but then again shows what YOUR RELIGION has taught you. God does not put a soul in torture,,, but people do it to themselves... by rejecting God. You just don't get it.... do you??? To even suggest that anyone is calling God "unrighteous"... I won't even go there!!! You have a very skewed vision of Christianity... if you think any version of Christianity "PAINTS" God as unrighteous.

There you go people... DON just voiced his viewpoint of all Christianity!!! He just became the "spokesperson" for what the Jehovah Witnesses think about other Faiths!!!!

Dig ANOTHER hole Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU CAN'T GO MUCH DEEPER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Once again Don...you need to get off the idea,,, that Adam caused everything. The idea of Adam in Genesis,,, was to "PAINT" a picture of ALL humanity!!! ALL OF US,,, when left to our own devices... are self serving,,, rather than GOD serving!!!!
 
Quote Don post #475:

"THINK about it. Romans 6:23 says it all very simply,04"

Yes Don... I am very well aware,,, and understand what Romans 6:23 says, (and means)!!!!!!!!!!


http://biblehub.com/romans/6-23.htm

I'll tell you what DON!!! PM me your full name and mailing address... and I will send you a wonderful gift!!! It won't be as wonderful as what GOD has to offer you,,, but it will STILL be a gift!!!

However... if YOU REFUSE to open the gift,,, because YOU don't trust ME... and instead throw the gift in the trash,,, ... ,,,, then DID YOU really RECEIVE the gift?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Thanks Don!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU just PERFECTLY made my point with GOD and the INDIVIDUAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU PERFECTLY made my point about GOD AND FAITH!!!!!!!!!! YOU PERFECTLY just made my POINT about GOD'S/JESUS' GIFT of SALVATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If YOU don't accept my gift... then how can it be a blessing to you????????????????????????????????? If YOU want to REJECT my gift,,, then don't whine and cry and blame me... when you put YOURSELF in a position I didn't want You to be in.

And you want to say that Chistianity paints God as unrighteous???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Try AGAIN DON!!!!! YOU,,, yes YOU... just dug YOUR OWN hole deeper!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seriously though... I do have a gift for you. All you have to do is ask,,, and be willing to accept it.

The choice is yours. PM me if you want it... IF you trust me.
 
You don't have hope for God to right this Earth from Adam's sin because you think Adam's would NOT have lived forever if he had NOT sinned in the Garden.
Since you don't even grasp the basics of the theme of the Bible,God's word, how can I hope to show you that God is love and would torture NO ONE?
He told Adam if he sinned,WHAT would happen? `In the day that you eat from it you will positively die'.(NOT, I will burn you with fire and brimstone forever).
So not only do you call Jesus a liar when you say Elijah and Enoch went to heaven, but then you show you do NOT know God by accusing Him of torture.

This is what was meant by the Jews putting burdens upon the lowly ones in Israel. You put this burden of worry on the people about something God never intended to worry them about.
Also Lazarus and the Rich Man was a PARABLE. It symbolized the Pharisees and religious rulers not giving to the lowly people anything but crumbs from their spiritual table.
He never spoke straight out to the Pharisees,but with parables. Read before Jesus launched into this ILLUSTRATION(parable) how the `Pharisees,who were MONEY LOVERS, were listening to all these things,and they began to SNEER at him'(Jesus).

don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote 04: `Quote Don post #475:

"THINK about it. Romans 6:23 says it all very simply,04"

Yes Don... I am very well aware,,, and understand what Romans 6:23 says, (and means)!!!!!!!!!!' End quote.

NO! You do NOT understand Romans 6:23 or any other scripture that shows God does not torture people after death.(or before death for that matter).
don-ohio :)^)
 
yes,wishful thinking by some people that want to believe their enemies are stoking the fires of hell.LOL! That's not being Christian, wishing torture on anyone. Comes from ancient Babylonian beliefs.
don-ohio :)^)
 
Quote Don post #485:

"You don't have hope for God to right this Earth from Adam's sin because you think Adam's would NOT have lived forever if he had NOT sinned in the Garden.
Since you don't even grasp the basics of the theme of the Bible,God's word, how can I hope to show you that God is love and would torture NO ONE?
He told Adam if he sinned,WHAT would happen? `In the day that you eat from it you will positively die'.(NOT, I will burn you with fire and brimstone forever).
So not only do you call Jesus a liar when you say Elijah and Enoch went to heaven, but then you show you do NOT know God by accusing Him of torture."

And here we go again folks,,, in partial full circle.

First Don... Enoch and Elijah DID go to Heaven at some time. Better go back and re-read Hebrews 11... especially the last few verses.

Second... God restoring the earth to PRE Adam's sin,,, is AGAIN strictly a Jehovah Witness belief. I refuse to contend that point with you anymore.

Third... You refuse to see,,, according to Scripture... that some people's hearts are so hard,,, that they absolutely want nothing to do with God. So... by YOUR beliefs,,, some people are going to be dragged into Heaven,,, kicking and screaming against THEIR OWN WILL. So.... this tells me that you think even the wicked will be saved??? If that's the case,,, then you might as well join the Unitarians and Universalists... along with those that taught and followed Greek Humanist philosophy... also know as Humanism. Have you ever taken the time to study greek philosophy... or do you just digest only what you have been spoon fed?????????
 
Quote Don post #485 again:

"This is what was meant by the Jews putting burdens upon the lowly ones in Israel. You put this burden of worry on the people about something God never intended to worry them about.
Also Lazarus and the Rich Man was a PARABLE. It symbolized the Pharisees and religious rulers not giving to the lowly people anything but crumbs from their spiritual table.

What a twist Don. Yes,,, Believers don't have to worry about their eternal destination. However,,, Jesus and others make it very clear... that those who reject God,,, DO have to worry about their eternal destination
He never spoke straight out to the Pharisees,but with parables. Read before Jesus launched into this ILLUSTRATION(parable) how the `Pharisees,who were MONEY LOVERS, were listening to all these things,and they began to SNEER at him'(Jesus)."

The story of the rich man and Lazarus was a parable YES... But the meaning of the parable by Jesus' own TRUE intentions and words,,, was about those who go to an eternal place of joy and comfort... AND about those who go to an eternal place of torment.

Tell me Don??? Anywhere within the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus... does Jesus ever say that Abraham tells the rich man that his suffering will only be temporary????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Quote Don post #485 again:

"He never spoke straight out to the Pharisees,but with parables. Read before Jesus launched into this ILLUSTRATION(parable) how the `Pharisees,who were MONEY LOVERS, were listening to all these things,and they began to SNEER at him'(Jesus)."

Yes Don... I know that section of the bible very well,,, and before Jesus addresed the pharisees... he was addressing the general crowd that had gathered to listen. Matthew 15 tells the parable of the "lost sheep",,, the "lost coin"... and the "Prodigal Son". The Prodigal Son,,, got a great reception... because he had returned home to his Father, (God). Would there had been a party if the Prodigal Son had never come home Don?????? No.... The Prodigal Son would have been written off as "lost",,, and as walking completely away from his Father, (God).

You are FLAT OUT WRONG,,, that Jesus never spoke to the pharisees directly:

Matthew 23:33

33"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?

John 8:44

44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Matthew 23:27

27"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness."

Matthew 23:25-26

25“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery and self-indulgence. 26“You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

John the Baptist even spoke some of these SAME things to the Pharisees:

Matthew 3:7-10

7But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming for baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers, who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8“Therefore bear fruit in keeping with repentance; 9and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father’; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham. 10“The axe is already laid at the root of the trees; therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

And then there is one more that i have mentioned several times to you... because YOUR INTENTION is to prosyletize someone to your beliefs, (much the same as the pharisees).

Matthew 23:15

15“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel around on sea and land, (OR INTERNET), to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.

So Don... to tell me that i don't know or understand the theme or story of the Bible... nor understand God's Love,,, or how he works ... ,,, ... is ignorance on your part! Most likely because you have been spoon fed WHAT you believe.
 
Quote Don post #486:

"NO! You do NOT understand Romans 6:23 or any other scripture that shows God does not torture people after death.(or before death for that matter)."

Never said God tortured ANBODY Don.

To quote myself from post #480:

"God does not put a soul in torture,,, but people do it to themselves... by rejecting God. You just don't get it.... do you???"

Obviously,,, you DON'T get it Don... because there are many stories thoughout BOTH Old and New Testament,,, where people rejected God. According to the Book of Hebrews 11... there are "those that received THE PROMISE". So that means that some didn't receive ANY promise.

Why Don??? Because they wanted nothing to do with God... and as the Old Testament says, (but STILL applies today),,, "They did what was evil in the eyes of the Lord". I.E. They worshipped SELF... instead of helping others,,, same as the pharisees did!!!

Before you twist my above words... I'm not saying that the Old Testament practices still apply today. I'm saying that Non- believing people nowadays,,, and during New Testament times, (Jesus walking the earth)... still did/do as was mentioned in the Old Testament. The "unfaithful", (wicked),,, go to a different place than the faithful.

YOU YOURSELF... said that the wicked get destroyed. That is why I asked you for the differenece between the Righteous... Unrighteous,,, and the Wicked. YOU,,, have not given a satisfactory answer... but instead have AGAIN,,, tried to twist what i say and accuse me in several different ways. However... destruction may not be complete "non-existence",,, but could be a place of eternal torment... as Jesus mentioned in the Parable of the Rich Man.

Keep digging the hole Don!!! Really... you don't have much further to go,,, before you bottom out.
 
Also Don... I asked you at one point if you were a 64 year old virgin. You never commented, (which is ok). If you are,,, then I commend you for that. Nothing wrong with that.

However,,, I will also ask you if you are a divorcee. I am... mostly not by my choice. So now i will mention other scripture.

Matthew 19:9

9"And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery."


This takes some careful study... looking BOTH into Jesus' day,,, and Moses' day. About customary Jewish wedding rituals. The typical Jewish marriage started with an agreement,,, between the Father and the Bridegroom. A verbal "contact" was drawn up... and settled by the Father and the Bridegroom drinking a cup of WINE together.

After this,,, the Bride and Bridegroom... were in pre-marriage, (engaged by our modern terms),,, and the Bridegroom went away to His Fathers House... to "add a room". However... if at any time during this year,,, the Bridegroom decided he didn't want his bride,,, he could negate the contract... thus being considered a divorce. It didn't havre to be for adultery during the engagement... but could be just for second thoughts about the bride to be.

Thus the talk in Matthew, (and elsewhere), where if the Bridegroom issued a cartificate of divorce, (other than for unfaithfulness),,, he causes the woman to commit adultery.

This gets even more complicated to one degree when it comes to Jesus' comments about the Bridegroom.... and much more. Jesus never intended to divorce those that follwed and believed in Him, (the TRUE Bride). Jesus made a contract with THE FATHER,,, thus His mention that in His Fathers House are "many rooms"... and that He "goes to prepare a place for us", (same as the earthly Jewish contract between a Bride's Father and the Bridegroom).

Sooo... after a year of the bridegroom adding a room to his fathter's house,,, on an unannouced day... the bridegroom would return for his bride. There were "bridesmaids",,, with "lamps and extra oil"... that were "watching" for the bridegroom,,, and they needed to make sure thay had enough oil to last to the time the bridegroom returned.

When the bridesmaids saw the Bridegroom return,,, they would light their lamps... and there would be a great noise and celebration,,, as the "wedding party" followed the Bridegroom to collect his bride. As the wedding party went to the Bridegrooms House/Room,,, the door would be locked... so no intruders could be part of the wedding party/celebration.

However... if people that were invited to the "Wedding Feast" didn't come,,, the Bridegroom would then open up His Fathers House,,, to let other people enjoy the "Feast" and the "Wedding Banquet".

Don,,, if you can't see the "literal" metaphor that Jesus gave all through Scripture... in relation to the culture he live in,,, and was trying to reach... then you are spiritually as blind as a bat.

What about Jesus' parable about the "workers of the field"??? Jesus' teaching was for those that come to salvation early in life... not to be jealous of those that found salvation later in life! And not to be jealous that they got the same exact reward!!!

What about where Jesus tells a young man to follow Him... and the man says he is willing to do so,,, but needs to bury his father first??? What does Jesus tell him???

Luke 9:57-62

57As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, “I will follow You wherever You go.” 58And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” 59And He said to another, “Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.” 60But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.” 61Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.” 62But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

So Don... as verse 60 says,,, how do the DEAD bury their OWN DEAD???

I'll give you a clue!!!

Since it's NOT possible for a physically dead person,,, to bury a physically dead person... then Jesus was telling the young man in Luke 60,,, that spiritually Dead people... were going to bury his spiritually, (and physically), Dead father. In other words... Jesus was telling the young man,,, that it was too late for his father... but that the young man still had time,,, if he followed HIM.


Really Don??? And you want to accuse me of not understanding the Bible or it's Theme??? The Bible has pointed that from "DAY ONE"... we all have "Free Will",,, and God allows all of us to make our own choice about HIM. Giving us free will,,, HE will respect our individual choice... and let us go where we choose!!!

So it's OUR CHOICE to be in eternal tormment... OR eternal Paradise,,, just the same as the "good theif" on the cross next to Jesus the moment BEFORE Jesus DIED!!!
 
Quote cam post #487:

"Lotta wishful thinking here. For another view, read C S Lewis "The Great Divorce". "

And as expected... this went right over Don's head. Now way it could have been directed at him, (cough, cough).
 
If Don doesn't want the gift I have to offer... it's up for grabs.

Seriously folks... I do have a gift. No strings attached. Just PM me with pervously mentioned requirements, (hey, I'm not God... and don't know your name,,, or where you live).

Sorry Cam... you are automatically disqualified. It might create a bias... since you and i support each other in this thread.
 
Quote 04:` So it's OUR CHOICE to be in eternal tormment... OR eternal Paradise,,, just the same as the "good theif" on the cross next to Jesus the moment BEFORE Jesus DIED!!! '' END Quote.

So you STILL want to accuse the Father of torturing evildoers,or just people not Christian, in a fiery hell forever? You are slandering God. Trying to put Him on a level with the worst dregs of mankind, such as the murdering priests of Baal.
Such as Hitler,Mussolini, Stalin, Himmler,Charles Manson, etc.
God told Adam he would positively die . THAT was the punishment for disobeying the Creator.........think about this.............YOU are saying God changed the punishment for the crime! God says........`I change NOT' .
So go ahead in believe in the fiery furnace,instead of reading the figurative meaning therein. You have been inculcated by thousands of years of misunderstanding of scripture AND false religion wielding it's ugly head since the first century, being melded into true Christianity.
But the bottom line of the whole matter is, you are accusing God and Christ of the worst kind of Sadism.
don-ohio :)^I
 
still on. you believe in the son of god, miracle man, healer of the sick, could even walk on water, but incapable of the written word himself. ;)
and you don't see a problem.
try a little critical thinking.
 
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