04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Almost 2 hours between my last 2 posts. I guess I don't know how to study the bible very well.
God is Only a Theory
- Thread starter hrmwrm
- Start date
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
The following is founs here: http://www.gotquestions.org/sheol-hades-hell.html
Question: "What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?"
Answer: The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing.
The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.
Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).
The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.
Question: "What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abraham’s bosom?"
Answer: The different terms used in the Bible for heaven and hell—sheol, hades, gehenna, the lake of fire, paradise, and Abraham’s bosom—are the subject of much debate and can be confusing.
The word “paradise” is used as a synonym for heaven (2 Corinthians 12:3; Revelation 2:7). When Jesus was dying on the cross and one of the thieves being crucified with Him asked Him for mercy, Jesus replied, “I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise” (Luke 23:43). Jesus knew that His death was imminent and that He would soon be in heaven with His Father. Therefore, Jesus used paradise as a synonym for heaven, and the word has come to be associated with any place of ideal loveliness and delight.
Abraham’s bosom is referred to only once in the Bible—in the story of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31). It was used in the Talmud as a synonym for heaven. The image in the story is of Lazarus reclining at a table leaning on Abraham’s breast—as John leaned on Jesus' breast at the Last Supper—at the heavenly banquet. There are differences of opinion about what exactly Abraham’s bosom represents. Those who believe the setting of the story is a period after the Messiah’s death and resurrection see Abraham’s bosom as synonymous with heaven. Those who believe the setting to be prior to the crucifixion see Abraham’s bosom as another term for paradise. The setting is really irrelevant to the point of the story, which is that wicked men will see the righteous in happiness, and themselves in torment, and that a “great gulf” exists between them (Luke 16:26) which will never be spanned.
In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word used to describe the realm of the dead is sheol. It simply means “the place of the dead” or “the place of departed souls/spirits.” The New Testament Greek equivalent to sheol is hades, which is also a general reference to “the place of the dead.” The Greek word gehenna is used in the New Testament for “hell” and is derived from the Hebrew word hinnom. Other Scriptures in the New Testament indicated that sheol/hades is a temporary place where souls are kept as they await the final resurrection. The souls of the righteous, at death, go directly into the presence of God—the part of sheol called “heaven,” “paradise,” or “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 23:43; 2 Corinthians 5:8; Philippians 1:23).
The lake of fire, mentioned only in Revelation 19:20 and 20:10, 14-15, is the final hell, the place of eternal punishment for all unrepentant rebels, both angelic and human (Matthew 25:41). It is described as a place of burning sulfur, and those in it experience eternal, unspeakable agony of an unrelenting nature (Luke 16:24; Mark 9:45-46). Those who have rejected Christ and are in the temporary abode of the dead in hades/sheol have the lake of fire as their final destination.
But those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life should have no fear of this terrible fate. By faith in Christ and His blood shed on the cross for our sins, we are destined to live eternally in the presence of God.
cammerfe
Dedicated LVC Member
I was probably an early teen-ager when I was first introduced to the concept of "Myself Third". The entire phrase is, "Jesus first, others second, and myself third".
This whole focus on 144K seems to ignore this concept.
I don't think that's right.
KS
This whole focus on 144K seems to ignore this concept.
I don't think that's right.
KS
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don post #522:
Yes! You keep reading that Watchtower and you're gonna learn SOMETHING whether you want to or not. You can start by trying to understand WHY God has a group of Kings and priests anointed to be Christ's brothers. don-ohio
^)
I don't mind reading the Watchtower Don. I just flat out don't agree with it... or the whole JW religion.
Already covered the "group of Kings and priests anointed to be Christ's brothers" with you... as you put it. Revelation mentions that the duty of the 144,000 is to give God praise day and night with a special song that no-one else knew. No dual class ruling in Heaven over people on earth Don. Again Don... if you read Revelation,,, the 144,000 only have one purpose, (best I remember).
Yes! You keep reading that Watchtower and you're gonna learn SOMETHING whether you want to or not. You can start by trying to understand WHY God has a group of Kings and priests anointed to be Christ's brothers. don-ohio
^)I don't mind reading the Watchtower Don. I just flat out don't agree with it... or the whole JW religion.
Already covered the "group of Kings and priests anointed to be Christ's brothers" with you... as you put it. Revelation mentions that the duty of the 144,000 is to give God praise day and night with a special song that no-one else knew. No dual class ruling in Heaven over people on earth Don. Again Don... if you read Revelation,,, the 144,000 only have one purpose, (best I remember).
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
I agree 100% Cam.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
I think I put this on here once before... but I will do it again.
Found here: http://www.gotquestions.org/144000.html
144000
Question: "Who are the 144,000?"
Answer: The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).
So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.
These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.
Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according to Revelation 20:4 there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
Found here: http://www.gotquestions.org/144000.html
144000
Question: "Who are the 144,000?"
Answer: The book of Revelation has always presented the interpreter with challenges. The book is steeped in vivid imagery and symbolism which people have interpreted differently depending on their preconceptions of the book as a whole. There are four main interpretive approaches to the book of Revelation: 1) preterist (which sees all or most of the events in Revelation as having already occurred by the end of the 1st century); 2) historicist (which sees Revelation as a survey of church history from apostolic times to the present); 3) idealist (which sees Revelation as a depiction of the struggle between good and evil); 4) futurist (which sees Revelation as prophecy of events to come). Of the four, only the futurist approach interprets Revelation in the same grammatical-historical method as the rest of Scripture. It is also a better fit with Revelation’s own claim to be prophecy (Revelation 1:3; 22:7, 10, 18, 19).
So the answer to the question “who are the 144,000?” will depend on which interpretive approach you take to the book of Revelation. With the exception of the futurist approach, all of the other approaches interpret the 144,000 symbolically, as representative of the church and the number 144,000 being symbolic of the totality—i.e., the complete number—of the church. Yet when taken at face value: “Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel” (Revelation 7:4), nothing in the passage leads to interpreting the 144,000 as anything but a literal number of Jews—12,000 taken from every tribe of the “sons of Israel.” The New Testament offers no clear cut text replacing Israel with the church.
These Jews are “sealed,” which means they have the special protection of God from all of the divine judgments and from the Antichrist to perform their mission during the tribulation period (see Revelation 6:17, in which people will wonder who can stand from the wrath to come). The tribulation period is a future seven-year period of time in which God will enact divine judgment against those who reject Him and will complete His plan of salvation for the nation of Israel. All of this is according to God’s revelation to the prophet Daniel (Daniel 9:24–27). The 144,000 Jews are a sort of “first fruits” (Revelation 14:4) of a redeemed Israel which has been previously prophesied (Zechariah 12:10; Romans 11:25–27), and their mission seems to be to evangelize the post-rapture world and proclaim the gospel during the tribulation period. As a result of their ministry, millions—“a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language” (Revelation 7:9)—will come to faith in Christ.
Much of the confusion regarding the 144,000 is a result of the false doctrine of the Jehovah's Witnesses. The Jehovah’s Witnesses claim that 144,000 is a limit to the number of people who will reign with Christ in heaven and spend eternity with God. The 144,000 have what the Jehovah’s Witnesses call the heavenly hope. Those who are not among the 144,000 will enjoy what they call the earthly hope—a paradise on earth ruled by Christ and the 144,000. Clearly, we can see that Jehovah’s Witness teaching sets up a caste society in the afterlife with a ruling class (the 144,000) and those who are ruled. The Bible teaches no such “dual class” doctrine. It is true that according to Revelation 20:4 there will be people ruling in the millennium with Christ. These people will be comprised of the church (believers in Jesus Christ), Old Testament saints (believers who died before Christ’s first advent), and tribulation saints (those who accept Christ during the tribulation). Yet the Bible places no numerical limit on this group of people. Furthermore, the millennium is different from the eternal state, which will take place at the completion of the millennial period. At that time, God will dwell with us in the New Jerusalem. He will be our God and we will be His people (Revelation 21:3). The inheritance promised to us in Christ and sealed by the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 1:13-14) will become ours, and we will all be co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Revelation 14:1-4 (NASB)
1Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.
I took a deeper look into verse 3,,, and most translations use some form of the word "purchased". Even the NWT.
3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song+ before the throne and before the four living creatures+ and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000,+ who have been bought from the earth.
Um Don... If the 144,000 are bought,,, then who did the buying???
1Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads. 2And I heard a voice from heaven, like the sound of many waters and like the sound of loud thunder, and the voice which I heard was like the sound of harpists playing on their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders; and no one could learn the song except the one hundred and forty-four thousand who had been purchased from the earth. 4These are the ones who have not been defiled with women, for they have kept themselves chaste. These are the ones who follow the Lamb wherever He goes. These have been purchased from among men as first fruits to God and to the Lamb. 5And no lie was found in their mouth; they are blameless.
I took a deeper look into verse 3,,, and most translations use some form of the word "purchased". Even the NWT.
3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song+ before the throne and before the four living creatures+ and the elders,+ and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000,+ who have been bought from the earth.
Um Don... If the 144,000 are bought,,, then who did the buying???
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don post #521:
Eternal TORMENT is torture,which God and Christ would never do. The Bible even says the worst of all,Satan, will `come to nothing'. `Come to nothing' sound like eternal torture to you,04?
Don,,, if your "come to nothing" comment is regarding John 14:30... then you are taking things out of context again. If a different verse,,, you're gonna have to give me a bit more.
Quote Don again post #521
Again you do not want to believe God when He straight out told ADAM the punishment for disobedience. God does not change,nor does He change pronouncements of punishment, UNLESS He shows mercy,as in the book of Jonah when Ninevah repented.
Um Don??? God told Adam he would die a physical death,,, not spiritual one. Yes... they sinned by disobeying God,,, but in all reality,,, Adam and Eve received the promise talked about at the end of Hebrews 11... right after Jesus died. Adam and Eve weren't evil, (like Cain),,, so they are probably waiting with God with/for the rest of the Faithful.
As far as Jonah... yes they repented. If you read the story carefully enough,,, God knew they were going to repent, (and Jonah knew it too)... so it seems the mission God sent Jonah on,,, was more for Jonah than the Ninevites.
You're half right again Don. God does NOT change pronouncement of punishment... unless people repent. Better go back and look at The Old Testament,,, and see how many pronouncements of punishment he made against cultures and nations, and cities. If the people repented... they were spared. If the people didn't repent... they didn't fair so well. Not saying they all died... but they definitely suffered. Then there were those who's hearts were so hard... God knew they wouldn't repent. Take Soddom and Gomorrah for example.
Eternal TORMENT is torture,which God and Christ would never do. The Bible even says the worst of all,Satan, will `come to nothing'. `Come to nothing' sound like eternal torture to you,04?
Don,,, if your "come to nothing" comment is regarding John 14:30... then you are taking things out of context again. If a different verse,,, you're gonna have to give me a bit more.
Quote Don again post #521
Again you do not want to believe God when He straight out told ADAM the punishment for disobedience. God does not change,nor does He change pronouncements of punishment, UNLESS He shows mercy,as in the book of Jonah when Ninevah repented.
Um Don??? God told Adam he would die a physical death,,, not spiritual one. Yes... they sinned by disobeying God,,, but in all reality,,, Adam and Eve received the promise talked about at the end of Hebrews 11... right after Jesus died. Adam and Eve weren't evil, (like Cain),,, so they are probably waiting with God with/for the rest of the Faithful.
As far as Jonah... yes they repented. If you read the story carefully enough,,, God knew they were going to repent, (and Jonah knew it too)... so it seems the mission God sent Jonah on,,, was more for Jonah than the Ninevites.
You're half right again Don. God does NOT change pronouncement of punishment... unless people repent. Better go back and look at The Old Testament,,, and see how many pronouncements of punishment he made against cultures and nations, and cities. If the people repented... they were spared. If the people didn't repent... they didn't fair so well. Not saying they all died... but they definitely suffered. Then there were those who's hearts were so hard... God knew they wouldn't repent. Take Soddom and Gomorrah for example.
Open your mind,04................you cannot reason that God and Christ would cruelly torture anyone. God is love and the Bible says His mercy is over all His works.
Dangling a suffering person over a fiery pit,and you say FOREVER, would NOT constitute a merciful God,but a Sadistic one.
God pronounced sentence................Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that is sinning,it will die. Again,read Ezekiel 18:20 for emphasis.
God says at Psalms 146:4 `Do not put your trust in nobles, or the son of man to whom no salvation belongs. His breath goes forth,he returns to his earth. In that very day HIS THOUGHTS DO PERISH'.
And Solomon.................the wisest, filled with spirit said `Whatever your hand finds to do,do it with your might, for there is no work,nor devising in Hell or Sheoul (the grave) where you are going.' (paraphrased here)
don-ohio^)
Dangling a suffering person over a fiery pit,and you say FOREVER, would NOT constitute a merciful God,but a Sadistic one.
God pronounced sentence................Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that is sinning,it will die. Again,read Ezekiel 18:20 for emphasis.
God says at Psalms 146:4 `Do not put your trust in nobles, or the son of man to whom no salvation belongs. His breath goes forth,he returns to his earth. In that very day HIS THOUGHTS DO PERISH'.
And Solomon.................the wisest, filled with spirit said `Whatever your hand finds to do,do it with your might, for there is no work,nor devising in Hell or Sheoul (the grave) where you are going.' (paraphrased here)
don-ohio
^)Quote 04: `Already covered the "group of Kings and priests anointed to be Christ's brothers" with you... as you put it. Revelation mentions that the duty of the 144,000 is to give God praise day and night with a special song that no-one else knew. No dual class ruling in Heaven over people on earth Don. Again Don... if you read Revelation,,, the 144,000 only have one purpose, (best I remember).
And I have covered it with you, showing you they are Kings and priests,JUST LIKE the Bible says. WHO will they be ruling over? You say nobody? That makes no sense whatsoever,04.
Remember Paul saying `Do you not know that we shall judge ANGELS?' Think about that..............Paul,as one of Christ's brothers,telling the Christian congregation they will judge ANGELS!' They're not just gonna be singing songs.............they are gonna rule mankind to their benefit with God and Christ's approval.
`Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK(those of the 144,000), for the Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom. But I have OTHERS I must bring,and they will become one flock,one Shepherd.(the GREAT CROWD of millions is meant here).
They will be ruled by the little flock. don-ohio^)
And I have covered it with you, showing you they are Kings and priests,JUST LIKE the Bible says. WHO will they be ruling over? You say nobody? That makes no sense whatsoever,04.
Remember Paul saying `Do you not know that we shall judge ANGELS?' Think about that..............Paul,as one of Christ's brothers,telling the Christian congregation they will judge ANGELS!' They're not just gonna be singing songs.............they are gonna rule mankind to their benefit with God and Christ's approval.
`Have no fear, LITTLE FLOCK(those of the 144,000), for the Father has approved of giving you the Kingdom. But I have OTHERS I must bring,and they will become one flock,one Shepherd.(the GREAT CROWD of millions is meant here).
They will be ruled by the little flock. don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don post #535:
"Remember Paul saying `Do you not know that we shall judge ANGELS?' Think about that..............Paul,as one of Christ's brothers,telling the Christian congregation they will judge ANGELS!' They're not just gonna be singing songs.............they are gonna rule mankind to their benefit with God and Christ's approval."
One big problem here Don!!! Paul was NOT a JW!!! So when Paul is talking about judging angels, (the fallen ones)... he IS talking to ALL Believers. But... it seems JW's don't believe that Paul is one of the 144,000,,, so you are incontradiction with your own religion... by pointing out what paul says... because he uses the word "WE".
On top of that, (as a circular rehash with you),,,, you are taking ONE VERSE out of context in the WHOLE of Paul's writing in 1st Corinthians chapter 6.
1st Corinthians 6:1-8 (NLT)
1When one of you has a dispute with another believer, how dare you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter instead of taking it to other believers! 2Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? 3Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. 4If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church? 5I am saying this to shame you. Isn’t there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these issues? 6But instead, one believer sues another—right in front of unbelievers!
7Even to have such lawsuits with one another is a defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your fellow believers
So you miss the point Paul is trying to make... by "cherry picking" ONE VERSE to support YOUR beliefs that YOUR religion has taught you.
Really??? You tell me to have an open mind,,, when you refuse to look at the Bible from most Christian's perspectives??? I HAVE stepped out of the box,,, and have looked at the JW beliefs... and SEE what they believe,,, and understand why. Instead... all you do is attempt to correct and chastise,,, and convert someone to the JW beliefs... without even trying to understand why a Christian believes what they believe.
As through most of this thread, (and the other), your argument is based solely on what you have been taught to believe... rather than trying to see and understand other perspectives!!!!!!!!!!!! In your mind... everyone else is wrong,,, and you have the only answer. The scribes, sadducees, and pharisees made that same mistake. They thought they were "special" and had special favor from God. Your mind is CLOSED,,, just as the afforementioned... because just as they did,,, you think you have it all figured out.
IF... you were to take your focus OFF the 144,000,,, and stop trying to see most Bible Scripture as solely FUTURISTIC... you might find other ideas presented by the authors and characters of the Bible. You won't do this though,,, because YOU have been TRAINED in what you believe. "Sit Boo Boo sit. Good boy!"
I am truely sorry this has happened to you. You have been given a narrow mind... and a narrow focus by those who taught you,,, and refuse to think for yourself and examine the Scriptures for meaning you don't yet understand.... ,,, ... or you just "buy into" what you have been trained to think. Gven enough time and willingness by the individual,,, God will "peel back the layers of the onion"... and give understanding to those who honestly seek God and HIS STORY throughout the Scriptures of the Bible.
"Remember Paul saying `Do you not know that we shall judge ANGELS?' Think about that..............Paul,as one of Christ's brothers,telling the Christian congregation they will judge ANGELS!' They're not just gonna be singing songs.............they are gonna rule mankind to their benefit with God and Christ's approval."
One big problem here Don!!! Paul was NOT a JW!!! So when Paul is talking about judging angels, (the fallen ones)... he IS talking to ALL Believers. But... it seems JW's don't believe that Paul is one of the 144,000,,, so you are incontradiction with your own religion... by pointing out what paul says... because he uses the word "WE".
On top of that, (as a circular rehash with you),,,, you are taking ONE VERSE out of context in the WHOLE of Paul's writing in 1st Corinthians chapter 6.
1st Corinthians 6:1-8 (NLT)
1When one of you has a dispute with another believer, how dare you file a lawsuit and ask a secular court to decide the matter instead of taking it to other believers! 2Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? 3Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life. 4If you have legal disputes about such matters, why go to outside judges who are not respected by the church? 5I am saying this to shame you. Isn’t there anyone in all the church who is wise enough to decide these issues? 6But instead, one believer sues another—right in front of unbelievers!
7Even to have such lawsuits with one another is a defeat for you. Why not just accept the injustice and leave it at that? Why not let yourselves be cheated? 8Instead, you yourselves are the ones who do wrong and cheat even your fellow believers
So you miss the point Paul is trying to make... by "cherry picking" ONE VERSE to support YOUR beliefs that YOUR religion has taught you.
Really??? You tell me to have an open mind,,, when you refuse to look at the Bible from most Christian's perspectives??? I HAVE stepped out of the box,,, and have looked at the JW beliefs... and SEE what they believe,,, and understand why. Instead... all you do is attempt to correct and chastise,,, and convert someone to the JW beliefs... without even trying to understand why a Christian believes what they believe.
As through most of this thread, (and the other), your argument is based solely on what you have been taught to believe... rather than trying to see and understand other perspectives!!!!!!!!!!!! In your mind... everyone else is wrong,,, and you have the only answer. The scribes, sadducees, and pharisees made that same mistake. They thought they were "special" and had special favor from God. Your mind is CLOSED,,, just as the afforementioned... because just as they did,,, you think you have it all figured out.
IF... you were to take your focus OFF the 144,000,,, and stop trying to see most Bible Scripture as solely FUTURISTIC... you might find other ideas presented by the authors and characters of the Bible. You won't do this though,,, because YOU have been TRAINED in what you believe. "Sit Boo Boo sit. Good boy!"
I am truely sorry this has happened to you. You have been given a narrow mind... and a narrow focus by those who taught you,,, and refuse to think for yourself and examine the Scriptures for meaning you don't yet understand.... ,,, ... or you just "buy into" what you have been trained to think. Gven enough time and willingness by the individual,,, God will "peel back the layers of the onion"... and give understanding to those who honestly seek God and HIS STORY throughout the Scriptures of the Bible.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
The words "LITTLE FLOCK" are ONLY found in the NWT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! One of the MANY re-wrtings, (transgressions),,, of the JW's... in an attempt to make the Bible CONFORM TO JW'S BELIEFS,,, and in an attepmt to identify THEMSELVES as the true 144,000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! However,,, it's the same heresy and blasphemy that the scribes, sadducees, and pharisees committed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
In the END... ,,, GOD DECIDES who IS the 144,000... and there is NOTHING an individual can DO,,, to MAKE themsleves one of the 144,000.
I am truely sorry Don. I don't know haow long you have been a JW,,, but you have been lied to by a false religion. It may not seem like it at the moment... but I am saying all of this with LOVE and concern in my heart. LOVE and concern,,, are the only reason I have continued to debate the Bible with you. I have no interest in proselytizing you to my specific faith... in order to make myself more worthy in God's eyes. All I ask is that you open your eyes to Scripture... and look beyond what you have been taught to believe.
In the END... ,,, GOD DECIDES who IS the 144,000... and there is NOTHING an individual can DO,,, to MAKE themsleves one of the 144,000.
I am truely sorry Don. I don't know haow long you have been a JW,,, but you have been lied to by a false religion. It may not seem like it at the moment... but I am saying all of this with LOVE and concern in my heart. LOVE and concern,,, are the only reason I have continued to debate the Bible with you. I have no interest in proselytizing you to my specific faith... in order to make myself more worthy in God's eyes. All I ask is that you open your eyes to Scripture... and look beyond what you have been taught to believe.
Quote 04: But... it seems JW's don't believe that Paul is one of the 144,000,,, so you are incontradiction with your own religion... by pointing out what paul says... because he uses the word "WE". END QUOTE.
Again, you post a totally erroneous conclusion,04......are you doing this to deliberately mislead others?
Paul WAS in line to be, and now IS one of the 144,000.........he was one of the first several thousands of them. So your `WE' should be understood to be addressed to other 1st century Christians, who were generally of the heavenly hope class,the 144,000 who have been bought from the Earth.
don-ohio^)
Again, you post a totally erroneous conclusion,04......are you doing this to deliberately mislead others?
Paul WAS in line to be, and now IS one of the 144,000.........he was one of the first several thousands of them. So your `WE' should be understood to be addressed to other 1st century Christians, who were generally of the heavenly hope class,the 144,000 who have been bought from the Earth.
don-ohio
^)Quote 04: `In the END... ,,, GOD DECIDES who IS the 144,000... and there is NOTHING an individual can DO,,, to MAKE themsleves one of the 144,000.' END QUOTE.
^ Thanks goodness you finally got something right! Keep it up,04! You'll understand the whole purpose of the 144,000 kings and priests yet!
don-ohio^)
^ Thanks goodness you finally got something right! Keep it up,04! You'll understand the whole purpose of the 144,000 kings and priests yet!
don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don post #534:
"God pronounced sentence................Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that is sinning,it will die. Again,read Ezekiel 18:20 for emphasis."
Don,
Due to the challenges of the pastor in the chruch I left... I have spent some time in Ezekiel. Your version is either an intentional twist of Scripture... or a grossly severe misunderstanding. Ezekiel 18 has to do with what is termed or called,,, a "generational curse"... where the idea is that the sins of the parents fall on the children. In Ezekiel 18... God is saying that each man answers for his own sins,,, NOT for the sins of his or her parents. So your quote of Ezekiel 18... is WAYYYY off.
Try again Don!!!
"God pronounced sentence................Ezekiel 18:4 The soul that is sinning,it will die. Again,read Ezekiel 18:20 for emphasis."
Don,
Due to the challenges of the pastor in the chruch I left... I have spent some time in Ezekiel. Your version is either an intentional twist of Scripture... or a grossly severe misunderstanding. Ezekiel 18 has to do with what is termed or called,,, a "generational curse"... where the idea is that the sins of the parents fall on the children. In Ezekiel 18... God is saying that each man answers for his own sins,,, NOT for the sins of his or her parents. So your quote of Ezekiel 18... is WAYYYY off.
Try again Don!!!
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don post 539:
"^ Thanks goodness you finally got something right! Keep it up,04! You'll understand the whole purpose of the 144,000 kings and priests yet!"
Don,,, I have believed that God decides who the 144,00 are... the whole time we have been debating. However... for the JW's to boldly and selectively say that they are the only ones who can be the 144,000,,, is flat out heresy and blaspemy.
Again... GOD DECIDES,,, and I think there will be very few, (if any), JW's... who will be the 144,000. I got it right,,, but not in YOUR eyes. Thing is... I don't base my beliefs on what you see in YOUR eyes or beliefs.
"^ Thanks goodness you finally got something right! Keep it up,04! You'll understand the whole purpose of the 144,000 kings and priests yet!"
Don,,, I have believed that God decides who the 144,00 are... the whole time we have been debating. However... for the JW's to boldly and selectively say that they are the only ones who can be the 144,000,,, is flat out heresy and blaspemy.
Again... GOD DECIDES,,, and I think there will be very few, (if any), JW's... who will be the 144,000. I got it right,,, but not in YOUR eyes. Thing is... I don't base my beliefs on what you see in YOUR eyes or beliefs.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Quote Don post #538:
"Paul WAS in line to be, and now IS one of the 144,000.........he was one of the first several thousands of them. So your `WE' should be understood to be addressed to other 1st century Christians, who were generally of the heavenly hope class,the 144,000 who have been bought from the Earth."
So now you are changing your story,,, because that doesn't seem to be what you said before. It also appears that you are now saying that only 1st century Christians can be part of the 144,000. THAT doesn't even line up with the Watchtower article from 2007,,, I posted previously.
And shouldn't you be saying Paul "is",,, instead of "was" (in line to be one of the 144,000). Did Paul do something wrong,,, that he is no longer one of the "elect"???
"Paul WAS in line to be, and now IS one of the 144,000.........he was one of the first several thousands of them. So your `WE' should be understood to be addressed to other 1st century Christians, who were generally of the heavenly hope class,the 144,000 who have been bought from the Earth."
So now you are changing your story,,, because that doesn't seem to be what you said before. It also appears that you are now saying that only 1st century Christians can be part of the 144,000. THAT doesn't even line up with the Watchtower article from 2007,,, I posted previously.
And shouldn't you be saying Paul "is",,, instead of "was" (in line to be one of the 144,000). Did Paul do something wrong,,, that he is no longer one of the "elect"???
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
My aplogy Don,,, You DID say that Paul IS one of the 144,000. My bad. But at the same time,,, who was he talking to whe he said "we"??? The JW's didn't form for another 1800 years,,, and i don't think that Paul was talking specifically about a religion that hadn't been formed yet!!!
He was talking to his FELLOW CHOSEN ONES(only chosen by God to be His son's fellow Kings and Priests) in the first century,04.
The name of the modern Christians known as Jehovah's Witnesses does not differentiate them from their predecessor Brothers who were God's witnesses also and therefore since God's personal name IS Jehovah, they were also Jehovah's witnesses, just as Jesus was a witness for his Father Jehovah. It doesn't matter when the name was taken in modern times.........the Christians were ALWAYS God's (Jehovah's) Witnesses all down thru the centuries.
ALL of God's worshippers down thru time,from Abel to our times would be glad to be called Yahweh's or Jehovah's Witnesses,since that's what they were.
don-ohio^)
The name of the modern Christians known as Jehovah's Witnesses does not differentiate them from their predecessor Brothers who were God's witnesses also and therefore since God's personal name IS Jehovah, they were also Jehovah's witnesses, just as Jesus was a witness for his Father Jehovah. It doesn't matter when the name was taken in modern times.........the Christians were ALWAYS God's (Jehovah's) Witnesses all down thru the centuries.
ALL of God's worshippers down thru time,from Abel to our times would be glad to be called Yahweh's or Jehovah's Witnesses,since that's what they were.
don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Sorry to disappoint you Don,,, but Jehovah Witnesses do not appear to be Christians... simply for the fact that they DO NOT recognize Jesus as GOD,,, even after Jesus called Himself "I AM". So I wish you would stop calling the JW'S Christian. To claim to be part of a larger faith,,, when your religion is truthfully so exclusive... give the term "Christian",,, a bad name.
AND... DESPITE what you are saying now,,, the JW'S... DO differentiate between themselves and other Christians!!! Otherwise,,,, they would not attempt to proselytize other Christians to the JW religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I guess when you can't dazzle a person with brilliance... you try to baffle them with BS!
ALL Christians are NOT JW'S... so don't EVEN try to lump them in with YOUR religion!!!! So now you are definetly trying to proclaim the JW's as the original version of Christianity??? Sorry Don,,, mostt of the beliefs you subscribe to,,, were NOT part of what was originally taught by the Apostles. YOUR beliefs,,, didn't come along until roughly 1800 years after Christ died!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christianity has continued from the time Christ died,,, and to the best of my knowledge... NEVER has any form of Christianity attempted to modify or re-write Scripture,,, to match their beliefs.
What??? No comment on Ezekiel 18??? Did maybe a 50 year old punk a$$ kid... actually teach a supposed "all knowing" 64 year old proselytizer... something they didn't know about the Bible???
AND... Quote Don post #534:
"And Solomon.................the wisest, filled with spirit said `Whatever your hand finds to do,do it with your might, for there is no work,nor devising in Hell or Sheoul (the grave) where you are going.' (paraphrased here)"
Of course you paraphrased it Don... because you didn't want to be noticed as saying something opposite but the same to what I already showed when I mentioned Ecclesiastes... which was in contrast to what you said then.
Really Don??? Keep twisting and claiming other peoples efforts... as your own.
Also... quote Don again post#534:
"God says at Psalms 146:4 `Do not put your trust in nobles, or the son of man to whom no salvation belongs. His breath goes forth,he returns to his earth. In that very day HIS THOUGHTS DO PERISH'. "
I think this is suppose to be Psalm 146:3-4. Either way,,, the point is not to put your trust in man... but instead in God. That's partly why I know better than to put my trust in YOUR beliefs. I go by what God actually says in the Bible... and I don't re-write the Bible to match what I believe like the JW's do.
AND... DESPITE what you are saying now,,, the JW'S... DO differentiate between themselves and other Christians!!! Otherwise,,,, they would not attempt to proselytize other Christians to the JW religion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
So I guess when you can't dazzle a person with brilliance... you try to baffle them with BS!
ALL Christians are NOT JW'S... so don't EVEN try to lump them in with YOUR religion!!!! So now you are definetly trying to proclaim the JW's as the original version of Christianity??? Sorry Don,,, mostt of the beliefs you subscribe to,,, were NOT part of what was originally taught by the Apostles. YOUR beliefs,,, didn't come along until roughly 1800 years after Christ died!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Christianity has continued from the time Christ died,,, and to the best of my knowledge... NEVER has any form of Christianity attempted to modify or re-write Scripture,,, to match their beliefs.
What??? No comment on Ezekiel 18??? Did maybe a 50 year old punk a$$ kid... actually teach a supposed "all knowing" 64 year old proselytizer... something they didn't know about the Bible???
AND... Quote Don post #534:
"And Solomon.................the wisest, filled with spirit said `Whatever your hand finds to do,do it with your might, for there is no work,nor devising in Hell or Sheoul (the grave) where you are going.' (paraphrased here)"
Of course you paraphrased it Don... because you didn't want to be noticed as saying something opposite but the same to what I already showed when I mentioned Ecclesiastes... which was in contrast to what you said then.
Really Don??? Keep twisting and claiming other peoples efforts... as your own.
Also... quote Don again post#534:
"God says at Psalms 146:4 `Do not put your trust in nobles, or the son of man to whom no salvation belongs. His breath goes forth,he returns to his earth. In that very day HIS THOUGHTS DO PERISH'. "
I think this is suppose to be Psalm 146:3-4. Either way,,, the point is not to put your trust in man... but instead in God. That's partly why I know better than to put my trust in YOUR beliefs. I go by what God actually says in the Bible... and I don't re-write the Bible to match what I believe like the JW's do.
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Don??? Did you take the time to read the Wiki link on Gehenna... and all of the Bible verse listed in it where Jesu mentions Gehenna??? Did you understand,,, or did the scales stay on your eyes... because you closed your mind to the truth of what jesus was saying,,, because you have been trained to believe otherwise??? ("Sit BOO BOO sit. Good boy!")
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Found here:http://www.gotquestions.org/Watchtower-Bible-Tract-Society.html
Question: "What is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?"
Answer: The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is an organization directed by the leaders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Watchtower Society was founded in 1886 and is currently located in Brooklyn, New York. The Watchtower possesses tremendous control over its members and has gone so far as to produce its own translation of the Bible called the New World Translation. The Society has gone through several presidents since its founding and has positioned itself as a major competitor to evangelical Christianity. While claiming to be the only legitimate followers of Jehovah God, the Watchtower denies and even opposes several of the fundamental doctrines of the historic Christian faith.
To begin with, the Watchtower gets wrong one of the most important of all religious questions: Who is Jesus Christ? The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is actually the first creation of Jehovah God, not God incarnate as the Bible clearly teaches (Titus 2:13; Colossians 2:9). In doing so, they have placed Christ in the category of creature rather than acknowledging His rightful place of Creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:1-3). They have repeated the deadly error of Arianism, which was condemned as heresy by the Christian Church at the Council of Nicea and is easily refuted by a fair reading of Scripture.
Since its inception, the Watchtower has denied the biblical teaching of the triune God (one Being who exists as three co-equal, co-eternal Persons) and gone so far as to say that the God of Christianity is a satanic counterfeit. Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and a former President of the Society, even referred to the Christian concept of God as, “the devil himself.” The God of the Watchtower is not the biblical God and is therefore not capable of saving people from their sins.
In an attempt to justify their doctrines through biblical exegesis, the Society produced their own translation of the Scriptures in 1961. This translation, known as the New World Translation, is regarded by the Jehovah's Witnesses as the only faithful rendering of the biblical text. The NWT is unique in that it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group’s doctrine. Greek scholars from across the theological spectrum have repeatedly criticized the NWT as an inaccurate rendering of key biblical passages.
The late Dr. Bruce Metzger, formerly Professor of New Testament Language at Princeton Theological Seminary and author of several highly acclaimed books on textual criticism, stated, “The Jehovah’s Witnesses have incorporated in their translations of the New Testament several quite erroneous renderings of the Greek.” Dr. Robert Countess, who completed his Ph.D. dissertation in Greek on the New World Translation, is on record as saying that the Watchtower’s translation “has been sharply unsuccessful in keeping doctrinal considerations from influencing the actual translation. It must be viewed as a radically biased piece of work. At some points it is actually dishonest.”
A further reason to reject the claims of the Watchtower is their long history of engaging in false prophecy. The Watchtower Society has on numerous occasions predicted in print the end of the world, the most recent dates being in 1946, 1950, and 1975. What makes their false prophecy all the more damning is when their false predictions are seen in the light of their claim to be "the true prophetic mouthpiece for God on earth at this time." The Society's history of false prophecy stands in stark contrast to the standard for a true prophet laid out in Scripture: "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:22).
Moreover, the Watchtower continues to engage in cultic manipulation of its people through the prohibition of military service, the celebration of holidays, and the saluting of the nation's flag. The impetus for these restrictions is rooted in their false claim to be the exclusive organized collection of Jehovah's people. The Watchtower views these practices as devices of Satan to lead people away from Jehovah. The Watchtower sees the entire “world system” (any activity not connected with the Watchtower) as connected to Satan and is thus prohibited. This would include the practice of blood transfusions, which the Watchtower wrongly believes to be prohibited by Scripture. The Watchtower has stated that a blood transfusion "may result in the immediate and very temporary prolongation of life, but at the cost of eternal life for a dedicated Christian." The Society wrongly assumes that the biblical prohibition against eating blood (Genesis 9:4; Acts 15:28-29) extends all the way to the modern practice of blood transfusions, a restriction that, in practice, has cost the very lives of many Jehovah's Witnesses and even their children.
Despite a track record of repeated false prophecies, a cultic isolation of their own people, and a flagrant mistranslation of the Bible to justify their own theology, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society continues to gain unsuspecting converts every year. It is the job of biblically faithful Christians to be prepared to refute these errors with sound doctrine (Titus 1:9). As Jude tells us, we must "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 3).
Question: "What is the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society?"
Answer: The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society is an organization directed by the leaders of the Jehovah’s Witnesses. The Watchtower Society was founded in 1886 and is currently located in Brooklyn, New York. The Watchtower possesses tremendous control over its members and has gone so far as to produce its own translation of the Bible called the New World Translation. The Society has gone through several presidents since its founding and has positioned itself as a major competitor to evangelical Christianity. While claiming to be the only legitimate followers of Jehovah God, the Watchtower denies and even opposes several of the fundamental doctrines of the historic Christian faith.
To begin with, the Watchtower gets wrong one of the most important of all religious questions: Who is Jesus Christ? The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is actually the first creation of Jehovah God, not God incarnate as the Bible clearly teaches (Titus 2:13; Colossians 2:9). In doing so, they have placed Christ in the category of creature rather than acknowledging His rightful place of Creator of all things (Colossians 1:16-17; John 1:1-3). They have repeated the deadly error of Arianism, which was condemned as heresy by the Christian Church at the Council of Nicea and is easily refuted by a fair reading of Scripture.
Since its inception, the Watchtower has denied the biblical teaching of the triune God (one Being who exists as three co-equal, co-eternal Persons) and gone so far as to say that the God of Christianity is a satanic counterfeit. Charles Taze Russell, the founder of the Jehovah’s Witnesses and a former President of the Society, even referred to the Christian concept of God as, “the devil himself.” The God of the Watchtower is not the biblical God and is therefore not capable of saving people from their sins.
In an attempt to justify their doctrines through biblical exegesis, the Society produced their own translation of the Scriptures in 1961. This translation, known as the New World Translation, is regarded by the Jehovah's Witnesses as the only faithful rendering of the biblical text. The NWT is unique in that it is the first intentional, systematic effort at producing a complete version of the Bible that is edited and revised for the specific purpose of agreeing with a group’s doctrine. Greek scholars from across the theological spectrum have repeatedly criticized the NWT as an inaccurate rendering of key biblical passages.
The late Dr. Bruce Metzger, formerly Professor of New Testament Language at Princeton Theological Seminary and author of several highly acclaimed books on textual criticism, stated, “The Jehovah’s Witnesses have incorporated in their translations of the New Testament several quite erroneous renderings of the Greek.” Dr. Robert Countess, who completed his Ph.D. dissertation in Greek on the New World Translation, is on record as saying that the Watchtower’s translation “has been sharply unsuccessful in keeping doctrinal considerations from influencing the actual translation. It must be viewed as a radically biased piece of work. At some points it is actually dishonest.”
A further reason to reject the claims of the Watchtower is their long history of engaging in false prophecy. The Watchtower Society has on numerous occasions predicted in print the end of the world, the most recent dates being in 1946, 1950, and 1975. What makes their false prophecy all the more damning is when their false predictions are seen in the light of their claim to be "the true prophetic mouthpiece for God on earth at this time." The Society's history of false prophecy stands in stark contrast to the standard for a true prophet laid out in Scripture: "If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:22).
Moreover, the Watchtower continues to engage in cultic manipulation of its people through the prohibition of military service, the celebration of holidays, and the saluting of the nation's flag. The impetus for these restrictions is rooted in their false claim to be the exclusive organized collection of Jehovah's people. The Watchtower views these practices as devices of Satan to lead people away from Jehovah. The Watchtower sees the entire “world system” (any activity not connected with the Watchtower) as connected to Satan and is thus prohibited. This would include the practice of blood transfusions, which the Watchtower wrongly believes to be prohibited by Scripture. The Watchtower has stated that a blood transfusion "may result in the immediate and very temporary prolongation of life, but at the cost of eternal life for a dedicated Christian." The Society wrongly assumes that the biblical prohibition against eating blood (Genesis 9:4; Acts 15:28-29) extends all the way to the modern practice of blood transfusions, a restriction that, in practice, has cost the very lives of many Jehovah's Witnesses and even their children.
Despite a track record of repeated false prophecies, a cultic isolation of their own people, and a flagrant mistranslation of the Bible to justify their own theology, the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society continues to gain unsuspecting converts every year. It is the job of biblically faithful Christians to be prepared to refute these errors with sound doctrine (Titus 1:9). As Jude tells us, we must "contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints" (Jude 3).
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Let's try this one too... Found here: http://www.gotquestions.org/how-to-get-to-heaven.html
Question: "How to get to heaven - what are the ideas from the different religions?"
Answer: There appear to be five major categories regarding how to get to heaven in the world’s religions. Most believe that hard work and wisdom will lead to ultimate fulfillment, whether that is unity with god (Hinduism, Buddhism, and Baha’i) or freedom and independence (Scientology, Jainism). Others, like Unitarianism and Wicca, teach the afterlife is whatever you want it to be, and salvation is a non-issue because the sin nature doesn’t exist. A few believe either the afterlife doesn’t exist or it’s too unknowable to consider.
Derivatives of the worship of the Christian-Judeo God generally hold that faith in God and/or Jesus and the accomplishment of various deeds, including baptism or door-to-door evangelism, will ensure the worshiper will go to heaven. Only Christianity teaches that salvation is a free gift of God through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9), and no amount of work or effort is necessary or possible to get to heaven.
Atheism: Most atheists believe there is no heaven—no afterlife at all. Upon death, people simply cease to exist. Others attempt to define the afterlife using quantum mechanics and other scientific methods.
Baha’i: Like many other religions, Baha’i doesn’t teach that man was born with a sin nature or that man needs saving from evil. Man simply needs saving from his erroneous beliefs of how the world works and how he is to interact with the world. God sent messengers to explain to people how to come to this knowledge: Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah. These prophets progressively revealed the nature of God to the world. Upon death, a person’s soul continues its spiritual journey, perhaps through the states known as heaven and hell, until it comes to a final resting point, united with god.
Buddhism: Buddhism also believes that heaven, or “Nirvana,” is to be rejoined in spirit with god. Reaching Nirvana, a transcendental, blissful, spiritual state, requires following the Eightfold Path. This includes understanding the universe, and acting, speaking, and living in the right manner and with the right intentions. Mastering these and the other of the eight paths will return a worshipper’s spirit to god.
Chinese Religion: Chinese Religion is not an organized church, but an amalgamation of different religions and beliefs including Taoism and Buddhism. Upon death, worshipers are judged. The good are sent either to a Buddhist paradise or a Tao dwelling place. The bad are sent to hell for a period of time and then reincarnated.
Christianity: Christianity is the only religion that teaches man can do nothing to earn or pay his way into heaven. Man, a slave to the sin nature he was born with, must completely rely on the grace of God in applying Jesus Christ’s sacrifice to the sins of the believer. People are saved by faith in the death and resurrection of Christ. Upon death, the spirits of Christians go to heaven, while the spirits of unbelievers go to a temporary holding place called hell. At the final judgment, unbelievers are separated from God for eternity in the lake of fire.
Confucianism: Confucianism concentrates on appropriate behavior in life, not a future heaven. The afterlife is unknowable, so all effort should be made to make this life the best it can be, to honor ancestors, and to respect elders.
Eastern Orthodox: Orthodoxy is a Christian-Judeo derivative that reinterprets key Scripture verses in such a way that works become essential to reach heaven. Orthodoxy teaches that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation, but where Christianity teaches that becoming more Christlike is the result of Christ’s influence in a believer’s life, Orthodoxy teaches that it is a part of the salvation process. If that process (called theosis) is not performed appropriately, a worshiper can lose his/her salvation. After death, the devout live in an intermediate state where this theosis can be completed. Those who have belief but did not accomplish sufficient progress in theosis are sent to a temporary “direful condition” and will go to hell unless the living devout pray and complete acts of mercy on their behalf. After final judgment, the devout are sent to heaven and the others to hell. Heaven and hell are not locations, but reactions to being in the presence of God, as there is nowhere that He is not present. For Christ-followers, God’s presence is paradise, but for the unsaved, being with God is eternal torment.
Hinduism: Hinduism is similar to Buddhism in some ways. Salvation (or moksha) is reached when the worshiper is freed from the cycle of reincarnation, and his spirit becomes one with god. One becomes free by ridding oneself of bad karma—the effect of evil action or evil intent. This can be done in three different ways: through selfless devotion to and service of a particular god, through understanding the nature of the universe, or by mastering the actions needed to fully appease the gods.
In Hinduism, with over a million different gods, there are differences of opinion regarding the nature of salvation. The Advaita school teaches salvation occurs when one can strip away the false self and make the soul indistinguishable from that of god. The dualist insists that one’s soul always retains its own identity even as it is joined with god.
Islam: Islam is a take-off on the Christian/Judeo God. Muslims believe salvation comes to those who obey Allah sufficiently that good deeds outweigh the bad. Muslims hope that repeating what Muhammad did and said will be enough to get to heaven, but they also recite extra prayers, fast, go on pilgrimages, and perform good works in hope of tipping the scales. Martyrdom in service to Allah is the only work guaranteed to send a worshiper to paradise.
Jainism: Jainism came to be in India about the same time as Hinduism and is very similar. One must hold the right belief, have the right knowledge, and act in the right manner. Only then can a soul be cleansed of karma. But in Jainism, there is no creator. There is no higher god to reach or lend aid. Salvation is man as master of his own destiny, liberated and perfect, filled with infinite perception, knowledge, bliss, and power.
Jehovah’s Witnesses: The teachings of the Watchtower Society lead us to categorize the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a cult of Christianity that misinterprets the book of Revelation. Similar to Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses teach different levels of heaven. The anointed are 144,000 who receive salvation by the blood of Christ and will rule with Him in paradise. They are the bride of Christ. For all others, Jesus’ sacrifice only freed them from Adam’s curse of original sin, and “faith” is merely the opportunity to earn their way to heaven. They must learn about Kingdom history, keep the laws of Jehovah, and be loyal to “God’s government”—the 144,000 leaders, 9,000 of whom are currently on the earth. They must also spread the news about the Kingdom, including door-to-door proselytizing. Upon death, they will be resurrected during the millennial kingdom where they must continue a devout life. Only afterwards are they given the opportunity to formally accept Christ and live for eternity under the rule of the 144,000.
Judaism: Jews believe that, as individuals and as a nation, they can be reconciled to God. Through sin (individually or collectively) they can lose their salvation, but they can also earn it back through repentance, good deeds, and a life of devotion.
Mormonism: Mormons believe their religion to be a derivative of Judeo/Christianity, but their reliance on extra-grace works belies this. They also have a different view of heaven. To reach the second heaven under “general salvation,” one must accept Christ (either in this life or the next) and be baptized or be baptized by proxy through a living relative. To reach the highest heaven, one must believe in God and Jesus, repent of sins, be baptized in the church, be a member of the LDS church, receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, obey the Mormon “Word of Wisdom” and all God’s commandments, and complete certain temple rituals including marriage. This “individual salvation” leads to the worshiper and his/her spouse becoming gods and giving birth to spirit children who return to Earth as the souls of the living.
Roman Catholicism: Roman Catholics originally believed only those in the Roman Catholic Church could be saved. Joining the church was a long process of classes, rituals, and baptism. People who had already been baptized but were not members of the Roman Catholic Church had different requirements and may even already be considered Christians. Baptism is “normatively” required for salvation, but this can include “baptism of blood” (i.e.: martyrdom) or “baptism of desire” (wanting to be baptized really badly). From the catechism: “Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized.” Despite the changes through the years, baptism (or the desire for baptism) is still required for salvation.
According to Catholicism, upon death, the souls of those who rejected Christ are sent to hell. The souls of those who accepted Christ and performed sufficient acts to be purified of sin go to heaven. Those who died in faith but did not complete the steps to be purified are sent to purgatory where they undergo temporary, painful punishment until their souls are cleansed. Purification by torment may be lessened by suffering during life and the offerings and prayers of others on the sinner’s behalf. Once purification is complete, the soul may go to heaven.
Scientology: Scientology is similar to Eastern religions in that salvation is achieved through knowledge of self and the universe. The “thetan” (Scientology’s answer to the soul) travels through several different lifetimes, attempting to expel painful and traumatic images that cause a person to act fearfully and irrationally. Once a Scientologist is “cleared” of these harmful images and becomes an “operating thetan,” he/she is able to control thought, life, matter, energy, space, and time.
Shinto: The afterlife in Shinto was originally a dire, Hades-like realm. Matters of the afterlife have now been transferred to Buddhism. This salvation is dependent on penance and avoiding impurity or pollution of the soul. Then one’s soul can join those of its ancestors.
Sikhism: Sikhism was created in reaction to the conflict between Hinduism and Islam, and carries on many of Hinduism’s influences—although Sikhs are monotheistic. “Evil” is merely human selfishness. Salvation is attained by living an honest life and meditating on god. If good works are performed sufficiently, the worshipper is released from the cycle of reincarnation and becomes one with god.
Taoism: Like several other Eastern religions (Shinto, Chinese folk religions, Sikhism), Taoism adopted many of its afterlife principles from Buddhism. Initially, Taoists didn’t concern themselves with worries of the afterlife and, instead, concentrated on creating a utopian society. Salvation was reached by aligning with the cosmos and receiving aid from supernatural immortals who resided on mountains, islands, and other places on Earth. The result was immortality. Eventually, Taoists abandoned the quest for immortality and took on the afterlife teachings of Buddhism.
Unitarian-Universalism: Unitarians are allowed to and encouraged to believe anything they like about the afterlife and how to get there. Although, in general, they believe people should seek enlightenment in this life and not worry too much about the afterlife.
Wicca: Wiccans believe many different things about the afterlife, but most seem to agree that there is no need for salvation. People either live in harmony with the Goddess by caring for her physical manifestation—the earth—or they don’t, and their bad karma is returned to them three-fold. Some believe souls are reincarnated until they learn all their life lessons and become one with the Goddess. Some are so committed to following one’s individual path that they believe individuals determine what will happen when they die; if worshippers think they’re going to be reincarnated or sent to hell or joined with the goddess, they will be. Others refuse to contemplate the afterlife at all. Either way, they don’t believe in sin or anything they need saving from.
Zoroastrianism: Zoroastrianism may be the first religion that stated that the afterlife was dependent upon one’s actions in life. There is no reincarnation, just a simple judgment four days after death. After a sufficient amount of time in hell, however, even the condemned can go to heaven. To be judged righteous, one can use knowledge or devotion, but the most effective way is through action.
Question: "How to get to heaven - what are the ideas from the different religions?"
Answer: There appear to be five major categories regarding how to get to heaven in the world’s religions. Most believe that hard work and wisdom will lead to ultimate fulfillment, whether that is unity with god (Hinduism, Buddhism, and Baha’i) or freedom and independence (Scientology, Jainism). Others, like Unitarianism and Wicca, teach the afterlife is whatever you want it to be, and salvation is a non-issue because the sin nature doesn’t exist. A few believe either the afterlife doesn’t exist or it’s too unknowable to consider.
Derivatives of the worship of the Christian-Judeo God generally hold that faith in God and/or Jesus and the accomplishment of various deeds, including baptism or door-to-door evangelism, will ensure the worshiper will go to heaven. Only Christianity teaches that salvation is a free gift of God through faith in Christ (Ephesians 2:8–9), and no amount of work or effort is necessary or possible to get to heaven.
Atheism: Most atheists believe there is no heaven—no afterlife at all. Upon death, people simply cease to exist. Others attempt to define the afterlife using quantum mechanics and other scientific methods.
Baha’i: Like many other religions, Baha’i doesn’t teach that man was born with a sin nature or that man needs saving from evil. Man simply needs saving from his erroneous beliefs of how the world works and how he is to interact with the world. God sent messengers to explain to people how to come to this knowledge: Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, Muhammad, and Baha’u’llah. These prophets progressively revealed the nature of God to the world. Upon death, a person’s soul continues its spiritual journey, perhaps through the states known as heaven and hell, until it comes to a final resting point, united with god.
Buddhism: Buddhism also believes that heaven, or “Nirvana,” is to be rejoined in spirit with god. Reaching Nirvana, a transcendental, blissful, spiritual state, requires following the Eightfold Path. This includes understanding the universe, and acting, speaking, and living in the right manner and with the right intentions. Mastering these and the other of the eight paths will return a worshipper’s spirit to god.
Chinese Religion: Chinese Religion is not an organized church, but an amalgamation of different religions and beliefs including Taoism and Buddhism. Upon death, worshipers are judged. The good are sent either to a Buddhist paradise or a Tao dwelling place. The bad are sent to hell for a period of time and then reincarnated.
Christianity: Christianity is the only religion that teaches man can do nothing to earn or pay his way into heaven. Man, a slave to the sin nature he was born with, must completely rely on the grace of God in applying Jesus Christ’s sacrifice to the sins of the believer. People are saved by faith in the death and resurrection of Christ. Upon death, the spirits of Christians go to heaven, while the spirits of unbelievers go to a temporary holding place called hell. At the final judgment, unbelievers are separated from God for eternity in the lake of fire.
Confucianism: Confucianism concentrates on appropriate behavior in life, not a future heaven. The afterlife is unknowable, so all effort should be made to make this life the best it can be, to honor ancestors, and to respect elders.
Eastern Orthodox: Orthodoxy is a Christian-Judeo derivative that reinterprets key Scripture verses in such a way that works become essential to reach heaven. Orthodoxy teaches that faith in Jesus is necessary for salvation, but where Christianity teaches that becoming more Christlike is the result of Christ’s influence in a believer’s life, Orthodoxy teaches that it is a part of the salvation process. If that process (called theosis) is not performed appropriately, a worshiper can lose his/her salvation. After death, the devout live in an intermediate state where this theosis can be completed. Those who have belief but did not accomplish sufficient progress in theosis are sent to a temporary “direful condition” and will go to hell unless the living devout pray and complete acts of mercy on their behalf. After final judgment, the devout are sent to heaven and the others to hell. Heaven and hell are not locations, but reactions to being in the presence of God, as there is nowhere that He is not present. For Christ-followers, God’s presence is paradise, but for the unsaved, being with God is eternal torment.
Hinduism: Hinduism is similar to Buddhism in some ways. Salvation (or moksha) is reached when the worshiper is freed from the cycle of reincarnation, and his spirit becomes one with god. One becomes free by ridding oneself of bad karma—the effect of evil action or evil intent. This can be done in three different ways: through selfless devotion to and service of a particular god, through understanding the nature of the universe, or by mastering the actions needed to fully appease the gods.
In Hinduism, with over a million different gods, there are differences of opinion regarding the nature of salvation. The Advaita school teaches salvation occurs when one can strip away the false self and make the soul indistinguishable from that of god. The dualist insists that one’s soul always retains its own identity even as it is joined with god.
Islam: Islam is a take-off on the Christian/Judeo God. Muslims believe salvation comes to those who obey Allah sufficiently that good deeds outweigh the bad. Muslims hope that repeating what Muhammad did and said will be enough to get to heaven, but they also recite extra prayers, fast, go on pilgrimages, and perform good works in hope of tipping the scales. Martyrdom in service to Allah is the only work guaranteed to send a worshiper to paradise.
Jainism: Jainism came to be in India about the same time as Hinduism and is very similar. One must hold the right belief, have the right knowledge, and act in the right manner. Only then can a soul be cleansed of karma. But in Jainism, there is no creator. There is no higher god to reach or lend aid. Salvation is man as master of his own destiny, liberated and perfect, filled with infinite perception, knowledge, bliss, and power.
Jehovah’s Witnesses: The teachings of the Watchtower Society lead us to categorize the Jehovah’s Witnesses as a cult of Christianity that misinterprets the book of Revelation. Similar to Mormons, Jehovah’s Witnesses teach different levels of heaven. The anointed are 144,000 who receive salvation by the blood of Christ and will rule with Him in paradise. They are the bride of Christ. For all others, Jesus’ sacrifice only freed them from Adam’s curse of original sin, and “faith” is merely the opportunity to earn their way to heaven. They must learn about Kingdom history, keep the laws of Jehovah, and be loyal to “God’s government”—the 144,000 leaders, 9,000 of whom are currently on the earth. They must also spread the news about the Kingdom, including door-to-door proselytizing. Upon death, they will be resurrected during the millennial kingdom where they must continue a devout life. Only afterwards are they given the opportunity to formally accept Christ and live for eternity under the rule of the 144,000.
Judaism: Jews believe that, as individuals and as a nation, they can be reconciled to God. Through sin (individually or collectively) they can lose their salvation, but they can also earn it back through repentance, good deeds, and a life of devotion.
Mormonism: Mormons believe their religion to be a derivative of Judeo/Christianity, but their reliance on extra-grace works belies this. They also have a different view of heaven. To reach the second heaven under “general salvation,” one must accept Christ (either in this life or the next) and be baptized or be baptized by proxy through a living relative. To reach the highest heaven, one must believe in God and Jesus, repent of sins, be baptized in the church, be a member of the LDS church, receive the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands, obey the Mormon “Word of Wisdom” and all God’s commandments, and complete certain temple rituals including marriage. This “individual salvation” leads to the worshiper and his/her spouse becoming gods and giving birth to spirit children who return to Earth as the souls of the living.
Roman Catholicism: Roman Catholics originally believed only those in the Roman Catholic Church could be saved. Joining the church was a long process of classes, rituals, and baptism. People who had already been baptized but were not members of the Roman Catholic Church had different requirements and may even already be considered Christians. Baptism is “normatively” required for salvation, but this can include “baptism of blood” (i.e.: martyrdom) or “baptism of desire” (wanting to be baptized really badly). From the catechism: “Those who die for the faith, those who are catechumens, and all those who, without knowing of the Church but acting under the inspiration of grace, seek God sincerely and strive to fulfill his will, are saved even if they have not been baptized.” Despite the changes through the years, baptism (or the desire for baptism) is still required for salvation.
According to Catholicism, upon death, the souls of those who rejected Christ are sent to hell. The souls of those who accepted Christ and performed sufficient acts to be purified of sin go to heaven. Those who died in faith but did not complete the steps to be purified are sent to purgatory where they undergo temporary, painful punishment until their souls are cleansed. Purification by torment may be lessened by suffering during life and the offerings and prayers of others on the sinner’s behalf. Once purification is complete, the soul may go to heaven.
Scientology: Scientology is similar to Eastern religions in that salvation is achieved through knowledge of self and the universe. The “thetan” (Scientology’s answer to the soul) travels through several different lifetimes, attempting to expel painful and traumatic images that cause a person to act fearfully and irrationally. Once a Scientologist is “cleared” of these harmful images and becomes an “operating thetan,” he/she is able to control thought, life, matter, energy, space, and time.
Shinto: The afterlife in Shinto was originally a dire, Hades-like realm. Matters of the afterlife have now been transferred to Buddhism. This salvation is dependent on penance and avoiding impurity or pollution of the soul. Then one’s soul can join those of its ancestors.
Sikhism: Sikhism was created in reaction to the conflict between Hinduism and Islam, and carries on many of Hinduism’s influences—although Sikhs are monotheistic. “Evil” is merely human selfishness. Salvation is attained by living an honest life and meditating on god. If good works are performed sufficiently, the worshipper is released from the cycle of reincarnation and becomes one with god.
Taoism: Like several other Eastern religions (Shinto, Chinese folk religions, Sikhism), Taoism adopted many of its afterlife principles from Buddhism. Initially, Taoists didn’t concern themselves with worries of the afterlife and, instead, concentrated on creating a utopian society. Salvation was reached by aligning with the cosmos and receiving aid from supernatural immortals who resided on mountains, islands, and other places on Earth. The result was immortality. Eventually, Taoists abandoned the quest for immortality and took on the afterlife teachings of Buddhism.
Unitarian-Universalism: Unitarians are allowed to and encouraged to believe anything they like about the afterlife and how to get there. Although, in general, they believe people should seek enlightenment in this life and not worry too much about the afterlife.
Wicca: Wiccans believe many different things about the afterlife, but most seem to agree that there is no need for salvation. People either live in harmony with the Goddess by caring for her physical manifestation—the earth—or they don’t, and their bad karma is returned to them three-fold. Some believe souls are reincarnated until they learn all their life lessons and become one with the Goddess. Some are so committed to following one’s individual path that they believe individuals determine what will happen when they die; if worshippers think they’re going to be reincarnated or sent to hell or joined with the goddess, they will be. Others refuse to contemplate the afterlife at all. Either way, they don’t believe in sin or anything they need saving from.
Zoroastrianism: Zoroastrianism may be the first religion that stated that the afterlife was dependent upon one’s actions in life. There is no reincarnation, just a simple judgment four days after death. After a sufficient amount of time in hell, however, even the condemned can go to heaven. To be judged righteous, one can use knowledge or devotion, but the most effective way is through action.
QUOTE 04 source:`To begin with, the Watchtower gets wrong one of the most important of all religious questions: Who is Jesus Christ? The Watchtower Society teaches that Jesus Christ is actually the first creation of Jehovah God.'
^Your source is biased and shows it in this statement. The Bible shows you that God created Christ,as he was called the `firstborn of all creation' in Colossians 1:15. don-ohio^)
^Your source is biased and shows it in this statement. The Bible shows you that God created Christ,as he was called the `firstborn of all creation' in Colossians 1:15. don-ohio
^)
04_Sport_LS
Dedicated LVC Member
Hey WRM,,, you may like this one. It seems right up your alley as a "thinker".
Found here: http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html
Question: "With all of the different religions, how can I know which one is correct?"
Answer: There is no doubt that the number of different religions in the world makes it a challenge to know which one is correct. First, let’s consider some thoughts on the overall subject and then look at how one might approach the topic in a manner that can actually get to a right conclusion about God. The challenge of different answers to a particular issue is not unique to the topic of religion. For example, you can sit 100 math students down, give them a complex problem to solve, and it is likely that many will get the answer wrong. But does this mean that a correct answer does not exist? Not at all. Those who get the answer wrong simply need to be shown their error and know the techniques necessary to arrive at the correct answer.
How do we arrive at the truth about God? We use a systematic methodology that is designed to separate truth from error by using various tests for truth, with the end result being a set of right conclusions. Can you imagine the end results a scientist would arrive at if he went into the lab and just started mixing things together with no rhyme or reason? Or if a physician just started treating a patient with random medicines in the hope of making him well? Neither the scientist nor the physician takes this approach; instead, they use systematic methods that are methodical, logical, evidential, and proven to yield the right end result.
This being the case, why should theology—the study of God—be any different? Why believe it can be approached in a haphazard and undisciplined way and still yield right conclusions? Unfortunately, this is the approach many take, and this is one of the reasons why so many religions exist. That said, we now return to the question of how to reach truthful conclusions about God. What systematic approach should be used? First, we need to establish a framework for testing various truth claims, and then we need a roadmap to follow to reach a right conclusion. Here is a good framework to use:
1. Logical consistency—the claims of a belief system must logically cohere to each other and not contradict in any way. As an example, the end goal of Buddhism is to rid oneself of all desires. Yet, one must have a desire to rid oneself of all desires, which is a contradictory and illogical principle.
2. Empirical adequacy—is there evidence to support the belief system (whether the evidence is rational, externally evidential, etc.)? Naturally, it is only right to want proof for important claims being made so the assertions can be verified. For example, Mormons teach that Jesus visited North America. Yet there is absolutely no proof, archaeological or otherwise, to support such a claim.
3. Existential relevancy—the belief system should address the big questions of life described below and the teachings should be accurately reflected in the world in which we live. Christianity, for example, provides good answers for the large questions of life, but is sometimes questioned because of its claim of an all-good and powerful God who exists alongside a world filled with very real evil. Critics charge that such a thing violates the criteria of existential relevancy, although many good answers have been given to address the issue.
The above framework, when applied to the topic of religion, will help lead one to a right view of God and will answer the four big questions of life:
1. Origin – where did we come from?
2. Ethics – how should we live?
3. Meaning – what is the purpose for life?
4. Destiny – where is mankind heading?
But how does one go about applying this framework in the pursuit of God? A step-by-step question/answer approach is one of the best tactics to employ. Narrowing the list of possible questions down produces the following:
1. Does absolute truth exist?
2. Do reason and religion mix?
3. Does God exist?
4. Can God be known?
5. Is Jesus God?
6. Does God care about me?
First we need to know if absolute truth exists. If it does not, then we really cannot be sure of anything (spiritual or not), and we end up either an agnostic, unsure if we can really know anything, or a pluralist, accepting every position because we are not sure which, if any, is right.
Absolute truth is defined as that which matches reality, that which corresponds to its object, telling it like it is. Some say there is no such thing as absolute truth, but taking such a position becomes self-defeating. For example, the relativist says, “All truth is relative,” yet one must ask: is that statement absolutely true? If so, then absolute truth exists; if not, then why consider it? Postmodernism affirms no truth, yet it affirms at least one absolute truth: postmodernism is true. In the end, absolute truth becomes undeniable.
Further, absolute truth is naturally narrow and excludes its opposite. Two plus two equals four, with no other answer being possible. This point becomes critical as different belief systems and worldviews are compared. If one belief system has components that are proven true, then any competing belief system with contrary claims must be false. Also, we must keep in mind that absolute truth is not impacted by sincerity and desire. No matter how sincerely someone embraces a lie, it is still a lie. And no desire in the world can make something true that is false.
The answer of question one is that absolute truth exists. This being the case, agnosticism, postmodernism, relativism, and skepticism are all false positions.
This leads us to the next question of whether reason/logic can be used in matters of religion. Some say this is not possible, but—why not? The truth is, logic is vital when examining spiritual claims because it helps us understand why some claims should be excluded and others embraced. Logic is absolutely critical in dismantling pluralism (which says that all truth claims, even those that oppose each other, are equal and valid).
For example, Islam and Judaism claim that Jesus is not God, whereas Christianity claims He is. One of the core laws of logic is the law of non-contradiction, which says something cannot be both “A” and “non-A” at the same time and in the same sense. Applying this law to the claims of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity means that one is right and the other two are wrong. Jesus cannot be both God and not God. Used properly, logic is a potent weapon against pluralism because it clearly demonstrates that contrary truth claims cannot both be true. This understanding topples the whole “true for you but not for me” mindset.
Logic also dispels the whole “all roads lead to the top of the mountain” analogy that pluralists use. Logic shows that each belief system has its own set of signs that point to radically different locations in the end. Logic shows that the proper illustration of a search for spiritual truth is more like a maze—one path makes it through to truth, while all others arrive at dead ends. All faiths may have some surface similarities, but they differ in major ways in their core doctrines.
The conclusion is that you can use reason and logic in matters of religion. That being the case, pluralism (the belief that all truth claims are equally true and valid) is ruled out because it is illogical and contradictory to believe that diametrically opposing truth claims can both be right.
Next comes the big question: does God exist? Atheists and naturalists (who do not accept anything beyond this physical world and universe) say “no.” While volumes have been written and debates have raged throughout history on this question, it is actually not difficult to answer. To give it proper attention, you must first ask this question: Why do we have something rather than nothing at all? In other words, how did you and everything around you get here? The argument for God can be presented very simply:
Something exists.
You do not get something from nothing.
Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists.
You cannot deny you exist because you have to exist in order to deny your own existence (which is self-defeating), so the first premise above is true. No one has ever demonstrated that something can come from nothing unless they redefine what ‘nothing’ is, so the second premise rings true. Therefore, the conclusion naturally follows—an eternal Being is responsible for everything that exists.
This is a position no thinking atheist denies; they just claim that the universe is that eternal being. However, the problem with that stance is that all scientific evidence points to the fact that the universe had a beginning (the ‘big bang’). And everything that has a beginning must have a cause; therefore, the universe had a cause and is not eternal. Because the only two sources of eternality are an eternal universe (denied by all current empirical evidence) or an eternal Creator, the only logical conclusion is that God exists. Answering the question of God’s existence in the affirmative rules out atheism as a valid belief system.
Now, this conclusion says nothing about what kind of God exists, but amazingly enough, it does do one sweeping thing—it rules out all pantheistic religions. All pantheistic worldviews say that the universe is God and is eternal. And this assertion is false. So, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and all other pantheistic religions are ruled out as valid belief systems.
Further, we learn some interesting things about this God who created the universe. He is:
• Supernatural in nature (as He exists outside of His creation)
• Incredibly powerful (to have created all that is known)
• Eternal (self-existent, as He exists outside of time and space)
• Omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it)
• Timeless and changeless (He created time)
• Immaterial (because He transcends space)
• Personal (the impersonal can’t create personality)
• Necessary (as everything else depends on Him)
• Infinite and singular (as you cannot have two infinites)
• Diverse yet has unity (as all multiplicity implies a prior singularity)
• Intelligent (supremely, to create everything)
• Purposeful (as He deliberately created everything)
• Moral (no moral law can exist without a lawgiver)
• Caring (or no moral laws would have been given)
This Being exhibits characteristics very similar to the God of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, which interestingly enough, are the only core faiths left standing after atheism and pantheism have been eliminated. Note also that one of the big questions in life (origins) is now answered: we know where we came from.
This leads to the next question: can we know God? At this point, the need for religion is replaced by something more important—the need for revelation. If mankind is to know this God well, it is up to God to reveal Himself to His creation. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all claim to have a book that is God’s revelation to man, but the question is which (if any) is actually true? Pushing aside minor differences, the two core areas of dispute are 1) the New Testament of the Bible 2) the person of Jesus Christ. Islam and Judaism both claim the New Testament of the Bible is untrue in what it claims, and both deny that Jesus is God incarnate, while Christianity affirms both to be true.
There is no faith on the planet that can match the mountains of evidence that exist for Christianity. From the voluminous number of ancient manuscripts, to the very early dating of the documents written during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses (some only 15 years after Christ’s death), to the multiplicity of the accounts (nine authors in 27 books of the New Testament), to the archaeological evidence—none of which has ever contradicted a single claim the New Testament makes—to the fact that the apostles went to their deaths claiming they had seen Jesus in action and that He had come back from the dead, Christianity sets the bar in terms of providing the proof to back up its claims. The New Testament’s historical authenticity—that it conveys a truthful account of the actual events as they occurred—is the only right conclusion to reach once all the evidence has been examined.
When it comes to Jesus, one finds a very curious thing about Him—He claimed to be God in the flesh. Jesus own words (e.g., “Before Abraham was born I AM”), His actions (e.g., forgiving sins, accepting worship), His sinless and miraculous life (which He used to prove His truth claims over opposing claims), and His resurrection all support His claims to be God. The New Testament writers affirm this fact over and over again in their writings.
Now, if Jesus is God, then what He says must be true. And if Jesus said that the Bible is inerrant and true in everything it says (which He did), this must mean that the Bible is true in what it proclaims. As we have already learned, two competing truth claims cannot both be right. So anything in the Islamic Koran or writings of Judaism that contradict the Bible cannot be true. In fact, both Islam and Judaism fail since they both say that Jesus is not God incarnate, while the evidence says otherwise. And because we can indeed know God (because He has revealed Himself in His written Word and in Christ), all forms of agnosticism are refuted. Lastly, another big question of life is answered—that of ethics—as the Bible contains clear instructions on how mankind ought to live.
This same Bible proclaims that God cares deeply for mankind and wishes all to know Him intimately. In fact, He cares so much that He became a man to show His creation exactly what He is like. There are many men who have sought to be God, but only one God who sought to be man so He could save those He deeply loves from an eternity separated from Him. This fact demonstrates the existential relevancy of Christianity and also answers that last two big questions of life—meaning and destiny. Each person has been designed by God for a purpose, and each has a destiny that awaits him—one of eternal life with God or eternal separation from Him. This deduction (and the point of God becoming a man in Christ) also refutes Deism, which says God is not interested in the affairs of mankind.
In the end, we see that ultimate truth about God can be found and the worldview maze successfully navigated by testing various truth claims and systematically pushing aside falsehoods so that only the truth remains. Using the tests of logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and existential relevancy, coupled with asking the right questions, yields truthful and reasonable conclusions about religion and God. Everyone should agree that the only reason to believe something is that it is true—nothing more. Sadly, true belief is a matter of the will, and no matter how much logical evidence is presented, some will still choose to deny the God who is there and miss the one true path to harmony with Him.
Found here: http://www.gotquestions.org/correct-religion.html
Question: "With all of the different religions, how can I know which one is correct?"
Answer: There is no doubt that the number of different religions in the world makes it a challenge to know which one is correct. First, let’s consider some thoughts on the overall subject and then look at how one might approach the topic in a manner that can actually get to a right conclusion about God. The challenge of different answers to a particular issue is not unique to the topic of religion. For example, you can sit 100 math students down, give them a complex problem to solve, and it is likely that many will get the answer wrong. But does this mean that a correct answer does not exist? Not at all. Those who get the answer wrong simply need to be shown their error and know the techniques necessary to arrive at the correct answer.
How do we arrive at the truth about God? We use a systematic methodology that is designed to separate truth from error by using various tests for truth, with the end result being a set of right conclusions. Can you imagine the end results a scientist would arrive at if he went into the lab and just started mixing things together with no rhyme or reason? Or if a physician just started treating a patient with random medicines in the hope of making him well? Neither the scientist nor the physician takes this approach; instead, they use systematic methods that are methodical, logical, evidential, and proven to yield the right end result.
This being the case, why should theology—the study of God—be any different? Why believe it can be approached in a haphazard and undisciplined way and still yield right conclusions? Unfortunately, this is the approach many take, and this is one of the reasons why so many religions exist. That said, we now return to the question of how to reach truthful conclusions about God. What systematic approach should be used? First, we need to establish a framework for testing various truth claims, and then we need a roadmap to follow to reach a right conclusion. Here is a good framework to use:
1. Logical consistency—the claims of a belief system must logically cohere to each other and not contradict in any way. As an example, the end goal of Buddhism is to rid oneself of all desires. Yet, one must have a desire to rid oneself of all desires, which is a contradictory and illogical principle.
2. Empirical adequacy—is there evidence to support the belief system (whether the evidence is rational, externally evidential, etc.)? Naturally, it is only right to want proof for important claims being made so the assertions can be verified. For example, Mormons teach that Jesus visited North America. Yet there is absolutely no proof, archaeological or otherwise, to support such a claim.
3. Existential relevancy—the belief system should address the big questions of life described below and the teachings should be accurately reflected in the world in which we live. Christianity, for example, provides good answers for the large questions of life, but is sometimes questioned because of its claim of an all-good and powerful God who exists alongside a world filled with very real evil. Critics charge that such a thing violates the criteria of existential relevancy, although many good answers have been given to address the issue.
The above framework, when applied to the topic of religion, will help lead one to a right view of God and will answer the four big questions of life:
1. Origin – where did we come from?
2. Ethics – how should we live?
3. Meaning – what is the purpose for life?
4. Destiny – where is mankind heading?
But how does one go about applying this framework in the pursuit of God? A step-by-step question/answer approach is one of the best tactics to employ. Narrowing the list of possible questions down produces the following:
1. Does absolute truth exist?
2. Do reason and religion mix?
3. Does God exist?
4. Can God be known?
5. Is Jesus God?
6. Does God care about me?
First we need to know if absolute truth exists. If it does not, then we really cannot be sure of anything (spiritual or not), and we end up either an agnostic, unsure if we can really know anything, or a pluralist, accepting every position because we are not sure which, if any, is right.
Absolute truth is defined as that which matches reality, that which corresponds to its object, telling it like it is. Some say there is no such thing as absolute truth, but taking such a position becomes self-defeating. For example, the relativist says, “All truth is relative,” yet one must ask: is that statement absolutely true? If so, then absolute truth exists; if not, then why consider it? Postmodernism affirms no truth, yet it affirms at least one absolute truth: postmodernism is true. In the end, absolute truth becomes undeniable.
Further, absolute truth is naturally narrow and excludes its opposite. Two plus two equals four, with no other answer being possible. This point becomes critical as different belief systems and worldviews are compared. If one belief system has components that are proven true, then any competing belief system with contrary claims must be false. Also, we must keep in mind that absolute truth is not impacted by sincerity and desire. No matter how sincerely someone embraces a lie, it is still a lie. And no desire in the world can make something true that is false.
The answer of question one is that absolute truth exists. This being the case, agnosticism, postmodernism, relativism, and skepticism are all false positions.
This leads us to the next question of whether reason/logic can be used in matters of religion. Some say this is not possible, but—why not? The truth is, logic is vital when examining spiritual claims because it helps us understand why some claims should be excluded and others embraced. Logic is absolutely critical in dismantling pluralism (which says that all truth claims, even those that oppose each other, are equal and valid).
For example, Islam and Judaism claim that Jesus is not God, whereas Christianity claims He is. One of the core laws of logic is the law of non-contradiction, which says something cannot be both “A” and “non-A” at the same time and in the same sense. Applying this law to the claims of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity means that one is right and the other two are wrong. Jesus cannot be both God and not God. Used properly, logic is a potent weapon against pluralism because it clearly demonstrates that contrary truth claims cannot both be true. This understanding topples the whole “true for you but not for me” mindset.
Logic also dispels the whole “all roads lead to the top of the mountain” analogy that pluralists use. Logic shows that each belief system has its own set of signs that point to radically different locations in the end. Logic shows that the proper illustration of a search for spiritual truth is more like a maze—one path makes it through to truth, while all others arrive at dead ends. All faiths may have some surface similarities, but they differ in major ways in their core doctrines.
The conclusion is that you can use reason and logic in matters of religion. That being the case, pluralism (the belief that all truth claims are equally true and valid) is ruled out because it is illogical and contradictory to believe that diametrically opposing truth claims can both be right.
Next comes the big question: does God exist? Atheists and naturalists (who do not accept anything beyond this physical world and universe) say “no.” While volumes have been written and debates have raged throughout history on this question, it is actually not difficult to answer. To give it proper attention, you must first ask this question: Why do we have something rather than nothing at all? In other words, how did you and everything around you get here? The argument for God can be presented very simply:
Something exists.
You do not get something from nothing.
Therefore, a necessary and eternal Being exists.
You cannot deny you exist because you have to exist in order to deny your own existence (which is self-defeating), so the first premise above is true. No one has ever demonstrated that something can come from nothing unless they redefine what ‘nothing’ is, so the second premise rings true. Therefore, the conclusion naturally follows—an eternal Being is responsible for everything that exists.
This is a position no thinking atheist denies; they just claim that the universe is that eternal being. However, the problem with that stance is that all scientific evidence points to the fact that the universe had a beginning (the ‘big bang’). And everything that has a beginning must have a cause; therefore, the universe had a cause and is not eternal. Because the only two sources of eternality are an eternal universe (denied by all current empirical evidence) or an eternal Creator, the only logical conclusion is that God exists. Answering the question of God’s existence in the affirmative rules out atheism as a valid belief system.
Now, this conclusion says nothing about what kind of God exists, but amazingly enough, it does do one sweeping thing—it rules out all pantheistic religions. All pantheistic worldviews say that the universe is God and is eternal. And this assertion is false. So, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, and all other pantheistic religions are ruled out as valid belief systems.
Further, we learn some interesting things about this God who created the universe. He is:
• Supernatural in nature (as He exists outside of His creation)
• Incredibly powerful (to have created all that is known)
• Eternal (self-existent, as He exists outside of time and space)
• Omnipresent (He created space and is not limited by it)
• Timeless and changeless (He created time)
• Immaterial (because He transcends space)
• Personal (the impersonal can’t create personality)
• Necessary (as everything else depends on Him)
• Infinite and singular (as you cannot have two infinites)
• Diverse yet has unity (as all multiplicity implies a prior singularity)
• Intelligent (supremely, to create everything)
• Purposeful (as He deliberately created everything)
• Moral (no moral law can exist without a lawgiver)
• Caring (or no moral laws would have been given)
This Being exhibits characteristics very similar to the God of Judaism, Islam, and Christianity, which interestingly enough, are the only core faiths left standing after atheism and pantheism have been eliminated. Note also that one of the big questions in life (origins) is now answered: we know where we came from.
This leads to the next question: can we know God? At this point, the need for religion is replaced by something more important—the need for revelation. If mankind is to know this God well, it is up to God to reveal Himself to His creation. Judaism, Islam, and Christianity all claim to have a book that is God’s revelation to man, but the question is which (if any) is actually true? Pushing aside minor differences, the two core areas of dispute are 1) the New Testament of the Bible 2) the person of Jesus Christ. Islam and Judaism both claim the New Testament of the Bible is untrue in what it claims, and both deny that Jesus is God incarnate, while Christianity affirms both to be true.
There is no faith on the planet that can match the mountains of evidence that exist for Christianity. From the voluminous number of ancient manuscripts, to the very early dating of the documents written during the lifetime of the eyewitnesses (some only 15 years after Christ’s death), to the multiplicity of the accounts (nine authors in 27 books of the New Testament), to the archaeological evidence—none of which has ever contradicted a single claim the New Testament makes—to the fact that the apostles went to their deaths claiming they had seen Jesus in action and that He had come back from the dead, Christianity sets the bar in terms of providing the proof to back up its claims. The New Testament’s historical authenticity—that it conveys a truthful account of the actual events as they occurred—is the only right conclusion to reach once all the evidence has been examined.
When it comes to Jesus, one finds a very curious thing about Him—He claimed to be God in the flesh. Jesus own words (e.g., “Before Abraham was born I AM”), His actions (e.g., forgiving sins, accepting worship), His sinless and miraculous life (which He used to prove His truth claims over opposing claims), and His resurrection all support His claims to be God. The New Testament writers affirm this fact over and over again in their writings.
Now, if Jesus is God, then what He says must be true. And if Jesus said that the Bible is inerrant and true in everything it says (which He did), this must mean that the Bible is true in what it proclaims. As we have already learned, two competing truth claims cannot both be right. So anything in the Islamic Koran or writings of Judaism that contradict the Bible cannot be true. In fact, both Islam and Judaism fail since they both say that Jesus is not God incarnate, while the evidence says otherwise. And because we can indeed know God (because He has revealed Himself in His written Word and in Christ), all forms of agnosticism are refuted. Lastly, another big question of life is answered—that of ethics—as the Bible contains clear instructions on how mankind ought to live.
This same Bible proclaims that God cares deeply for mankind and wishes all to know Him intimately. In fact, He cares so much that He became a man to show His creation exactly what He is like. There are many men who have sought to be God, but only one God who sought to be man so He could save those He deeply loves from an eternity separated from Him. This fact demonstrates the existential relevancy of Christianity and also answers that last two big questions of life—meaning and destiny. Each person has been designed by God for a purpose, and each has a destiny that awaits him—one of eternal life with God or eternal separation from Him. This deduction (and the point of God becoming a man in Christ) also refutes Deism, which says God is not interested in the affairs of mankind.
In the end, we see that ultimate truth about God can be found and the worldview maze successfully navigated by testing various truth claims and systematically pushing aside falsehoods so that only the truth remains. Using the tests of logical consistency, empirical adequacy, and existential relevancy, coupled with asking the right questions, yields truthful and reasonable conclusions about religion and God. Everyone should agree that the only reason to believe something is that it is true—nothing more. Sadly, true belief is a matter of the will, and no matter how much logical evidence is presented, some will still choose to deny the God who is there and miss the one true path to harmony with Him.