K&N filter

[eL eS]

h(lenght of bottom + Lenght of top)
----------------------------------
2

But then we have the fact that the cone benefits from having the 14.5 lb per sq inch on the top half where the stock or K&N filter has to be pulled against. So would it be safe to assume that the cone automatically has half the work of the stock or K&N.


¿Do we call it quits now?

 

[SurfjaxLS]

¿Do we call it quits now?

Why not? Too much rambling and not enough facts. Cone works better than stock or k&n panel, how much better, not sure, but every little bit helps.

Just live with the fact that the true gains are not known, and enjoy the extra power you get.

:soapbox:

 

[Pete02LSE]

h(lenght of bottom + Lenght of top)
----------------------------------
2

But then we have the fact that the cone benefits from having the 14.5 lb per sq inch on the top half where the stock or K&N filter has to be pulled against. So would it be safe to assume that the cone automatically has half the work of the stock or K&N.


¿Do we call it quits now?

So you are saying that the cone is twice as efficient as the panel? If so...I just don't buy that. Reason being...there's still a force that exists sucking behind any filter...regardless if it's the panel or the cone...it's the same force.

If we want to end it...that's cool...but...I won't be satisfied until we have a final decision with mathematic proof. Admittedly...I haven't had much time to research it today..nor will I this weekend. When I do...I'll pick back up on it. In fact...I may just end up emailing K&N and asking them. Surely they have flow comparisons between cones and panels.

-Pete
02 LSE

 

[Quik LS]

or - you could just measure the amount of space you have available and buy the largest cone you can find that will fit....

 

[eL eS]

well it occured to me that the top half of the cone benefits from the down force of atomospheric pressure. At sea level is about 15lbs psi. The rectangular filter does not have this down force. I am not saying that it is a clear 2 time better simply that if the surface area is equal the the cone has a down force which helps it do less work than the filter that simply picks up.

 

[Pete02LSE]

well it occured to me that the top half of the cone benefits from the down force of atomospheric pressure. At sea level is about 15lbs psi. The rectangular filter does not have this down force. I am not saying that it is a clear 2 time better simply that if the surface area is equal the the cone has a down force which helps it do less work than the filter that simply picks up.

Ahhh...ok...that makes more sense.

Anyone have one of the cones that come with the KKM kit? How long is it? If it's not as long as the panel is wide...then you know right there it has the smaller surface area. Also...if someone can measure the circumference of said filter...and it's not greater than the panel is long...you know it has the smaller surface area. This is just a ballpark...not exact.

By just looking at the KKM...it looks as though the circumference may be the same as the panel length...but...the cone length looks like it MIGHT be the same as the panel width...if not...the cone is a tiny bit shorter.

Remember though...if there's no heat sheild blocking engine heat from the cone...any increase attributed to the increase in filter efficiency is probably negated.

I apologize if this is like we are beating a dead horse...but...I like to get to the bottom of something and inform folks of the best option for their money.

-Pete
02 LSE

 

[Kelleyo]

Does LLSOC offer an intake for the 03? I looked on the site and didn't see one. However, they do offer the KKM intake. Is that what you are talking about?

Just curious...

Oh...and I completely agree about not comparing the 00-02 and the 03+ as the intake and exhaust are different. It would be apples to oranges. However, I believe the air boxes are identical. Therefore, it would show the gain to be had by replacing just the airbox with the KKM. Even then...one could only extrapolate the gain to be had on an 00-02.

-Pete
02 LSE

Yes I got the KKM intake.

 

[SurfjaxLS]

I have an unused cone that is smaller than the kkm one, only 4.75" length of filter material, 6" bottom base, 4.625" top base. It has approx. 81.94 sq. in. without pleats. Not sure of the stock panel area without pleats.

 

[eL eS]

Ahhh...ok...that makes more sense.

Anyone have one of the cones that come with the KKM kit? How long is it? If it's not as long as the panel is wide...then you know right there it has the smaller surface area. Also...if someone can measure the circumference of said filter...and it's not greater than the panel is long...you know it has the smaller surface area. This is just a ballpark...not exact.

By just looking at the KKM...it looks as though the circumference may be the same as the panel length...but...the cone length looks like it MIGHT be the same as the panel width...if not...the cone is a tiny bit shorter.

Remember though...if there's no heat sheild blocking engine heat from the cone...any increase attributed to the increase in filter efficiency is probably negated.

I apologize if this is like we are beating a dead horse...but...I like to get to the bottom of something and inform folks of the best option for their money.

-Pete
02 LSE

I hear ya. The cone is prone to hot air ingestion esp in city driving and during the summer forget about it.

 

[Pete02LSE]

Why not? Too much rambling and not enough facts. Cone works better than stock or k&n panel, how much better, not sure, but every little bit helps.

Just live with the fact that the true gains are not known, and enjoy the extra power you get.

:soapbox:

Before dropping $300 on an intake tube...wouldn't you like to know if it offers a bang for the buck gain? To me...with engine mods...it's all about horsepower/$. Why would I spend $300 + the cone to gain the same amount of power by gutting the stock box and putting in a K&N panel?

Just like for my Camaro SS...I have yet to bolt on one mod that hasn't netted me a significant gain for the buck. The lid I bought used for $80...my longtubes...I bought on a group purchase for $500...GM performance plug wires...group purchase...$35...K&N...$50...ported MAF...free...did it at home. ..3" header back...$500. When I last had it dynoed...it put down 327 RWHP (about 387 crank horsepower assuming 18% driveline loss) and 337 RWTQ (about 397 crank torque). Assuming a factory rating of 320 crank horsepower...that's a 67 horsepower increase for just a little over $1k. If I ever get around to purchasing LS1Edit ($500)...I'll probably find another 20-30 horsepower locked up in the computer. With the 00-02 LS...you are looking at $900 for the LLSOC intake tube and the Magnaflow catback. Somehow I doubt it'll gain you even 40 horsepower.

But in the end...it's up to everyone how they want to spend their money...some choose to spend it wisely...some choose to spend it poorly.

Again...I apologize for rambling.

 

[Pete02LSE]

I have an unused cone that is smaller than the kkm one, only 4.75" length of filter material, 6" bottom base, 4.625" top base. It has approx. 81.94 sq. in. without pleats. Not sure of the stock panel area without pleats.

From what I posted earlier;

Pleats: 42
Height: 0.875 in (22 mm)
Outside Length: 12.375 in (314 mm)
Outside Width: 6.563 in (167 mm)

Therefore...the panel has about 81.21 sq in. not counting pleats. Not that much difference huh? Even if you figure the KKM is a bit larger...it's still not going to flow significantly better than the panel.

 

[Quik LS]

I am running a Green Filter - I believe the K&N match for mine is a RF-1048 (Chrome End Cap) or a RT-4590 (Custom End Cap aka XStream® Air Flow Top)

The dimensions of the filter are:
Filter Top= 4.5"
Filter Base= 7.5"
Length of media= 5"
Bottom Opening= 6"
Neck Length= 5/8"

 

[whatsupadrian]

L x W of a pleat x 42 = surface area???

 

[kleetus]

We are making this way more complex than it has to be... the conical filter, if you take it apart, and lay it down flat, will look like a fat rainbow. I see two ways of measuring the surface area of this "rainbow". You can take the number of "teeth" that the filter has, one count for the up and one for the down of each pleat, find that area which will be a trapezoid, and multiply that area times the number of pleats. Or, you can take that same rainbow and use this formula: "Frustrum of a Right Circular Cone" and the lateral surface area is pi*s(inner radius + outter radius) where s is the length of the cone from the inner to outter radius.

So for Quik's filter, we have LSA = 3.14*5*(2.25+3.75) or 94 square inches of area.

This is only true if the filter had material on a smooth surface, since it's pleated, I would submit that if you knew the height of the pleat, you could take the surface area of the cone for the peak of the pleat, then take the surface area of the cone from the valley of the pleat, and take the average of the two. Figure you're going up the pleat as much as you're going down... since we don't have that information yet, it's an estimate. But, we do have a viable equation to make it run once we find the height of the pleat.

This is great. Now, does anybody happen to know the pressure drop per square inch for said filter?

Also, eL eS... I don't understand what you mean about the downward pressure of the air pushing on the filter with the conical unit. Air pressure is 14.7 PSI whether your upside down or rightside up. If it were not true, you'd suffocate if you ever tried to breathe with your face facing down. Or did I miss something in what you were saying?

There is no sucking force to pull air into a motor, or any other void. It is the atmospheric pressure pushing air in, when the motor moves the piston down and out of the way.,This creates a hollow spot for the atmosphere to fill.

 

[Kelleyo]

Before dropping $300 on an intake tube...wouldn't you like to know if it offers a bang for the buck gain? To me...with engine mods...it's all about horsepower/$. Why would I spend $300 + the cone to gain the same amount of power by gutting the stock box and putting in a K&N panel?

Just like for my Camaro SS...I have yet to bolt on one mod that hasn't netted me a significant gain for the buck. The lid I bought used for $80...my longtubes...I bought on a group purchase for $500...GM performance plug wires...group purchase...$35...K&N...$50...ported MAF...free...did it at home. ..3" header back...$500. When I last had it dynoed...it put down 327 RWHP (about 387 crank horsepower assuming 18% driveline loss) and 337 RWTQ (about 397 crank torque). Assuming a factory rating of 320 crank horsepower...that's a 67 horsepower increase for just a little over $1k. If I ever get around to purchasing LS1Edit ($500)...I'll probably find another 20-30 horsepower locked up in the computer. With the 00-02 LS...you are looking at $900 for the LLSOC intake tube and the Magnaflow catback. Somehow I doubt it'll gain you even 40 horsepower.

But in the end...it's up to everyone how they want to spend their money...some choose to spend it wisely...some choose to spend it poorly.

Again...I apologize for rambling.

You will never get this much gain out of the LS without a supercharger. Now that we can tune with the SCT Flasher it is becoming a reality.

 

[Pete02LSE]

There is no sucking force to pull air into a motor, or any other void. It is the atmospheric pressure pushing air in, when the motor moves the piston down and out of the way.,This creates a hollow spot for the atmosphere to fill.

Huh? How is there no sucking force that pulls air into a motor. Any internal combustion engine is just a big air pump. Hence...air in...and air out. Therefore ...there are two events...sucking...and blowing. So...I'm a little unclear on how there is no sucking force?

 

[Pete02LSE]

You will never get this much gain out of the LS without a supercharger. Now that we can tune with the SCT Flasher it is becoming a reality.

I can completly agree with that. However, I was just making the point of why spend a ton on mods to only get a minimal return when you can spend next to nothing and get the same return?

Now...sure...if you can install ported and polished heads...new cams...maybe a different intake and a flash then sure...get a different intake tube and filter. And while you're at it...upgrade to 2.5" exhaust.

Speaking of which...what is the exhaust diameter for the 00-02 and the 03+? I believe for the 00-02 it is 2.25". If so...then dual exhaust @ 2.25" on the 3.9L is more than adequate to support the power increase that we are talking about. Therefore...my next mods are an x-pipe and replacement mufflers. On the mufflers...I'm leaning toward Dynomax bullet race mufflers because that's what I have on my SS. At constant speed...it has nearly no drone and is just nice and deep. However, WOT...it wails. My only concern is that it might sound like a bee in a beer can because of the small displacement and I don't want it to sound like :ricesmile.

Ehh...once I finish this up...I'll probably finally take it to be dyno'd. Then we can ballpark the $ spent and the horsepower gained.

The biggest problem with mods for the LS is supply and demand. There just aren't enough of us performance buffs out there that want to mod them that would drive down the cost/mod. It's sorta like the old school hot rodding...if you want something...mod the parts yourself and work with what you have.

-Pete
02 LSE

 

[Jamler3]

Pete Check These Mufflers... Call LMS!

I can completly agree with that. However, I was just making the point of why spend a ton on mods to only get a minimal return when you can spend next to nothing and get the same return?

Now...sure...if you can install ported and polished heads...new cams...maybe a different intake and a flash then sure...get a different intake tube and filter. And while you're at it...upgrade to 2.5" exhaust.

Speaking of which...what is the exhaust diameter for the 00-02 and the 03+? I believe for the 00-02 it is 2.25". If so...then dual exhaust @ 2.25" on the 3.9L is more than adequate to support the power increase that we are talking about. Therefore...my next mods are an x-pipe and replacement mufflers. On the mufflers...I'm leaning toward Dynomax bullet race mufflers because that's what I have on my SS. At constant speed...it has nearly no drone and is just nice and deep. However, WOT...it wails. My only concern is that it might sound like a bee in a beer can because of the small displacement and I don't want it to sound like :ricesmile.

Ehh...once I finish this up...I'll probably finally take it to be dyno'd. Then we can ballpark the $ spent and the horsepower gained.

-Pete
02 LSE

These guys are a Vendor on our site. Great Prices for Quality Stuff!

http://www.lincolnvscadillac.com/showthread.php?t=5370

 

[kleetus]

Huh? How is there no sucking force that pulls air into a motor. Any internal combustion engine is just a big air pump. Hence...air in...and air out. Therefore ...there are two events...sucking...and blowing. So...I'm a little unclear on how there is no sucking force?

Vacuum is the absence of air. The force that you call sucking is actually the atmosphere pushing the air in. It's force or pressure is that common number 14.7 psi. This is why larger trucks don't use hydraulic brakes. Aside from the complications for the trailer connection, the size of the booster needed to apply that much force over that many wheel sets would be so huge, you couldn't get it under the hood. In fact, that why some trucks, (like uhaul and ryder) have the the booster mounted along side the frame rail behind the cab.

Ever have one of those jello shots that come in a big 100 cc syringe? Do the shot, put your thumb over the end and try to pull the plunger out. You can pull it down, but when you let go, it snaps back to the bottom. The force that pushed it back down is the atmosphere acting on the surface area of the backside of the plunger. There is a limit as to how much vaccum you can create too, it's 30 inches of water, or 760 mm of mercury. And belive it or not, there is no such thing as a perfect vaccum either, you can get close to it, but not actually there.

 

[eL eS]

We are making this way more complex than it has to be... the conical filter, if you take it apart, and lay it down flat, will look like a fat rainbow. I see two ways of measuring the surface area of this "rainbow". You can take the number of "teeth" that the filter has, one count for the up and one for the down of each pleat, find that area which will be a trapezoid, and multiply that area times the number of pleats. Or, you can take that same rainbow and use this formula: "Frustrum of a Right Circular Cone" and the lateral surface area is pi*s(inner radius + outter radius) where s is the length of the cone from the inner to outter radius.

So for Quik's filter, we have LSA = 3.14*5*(2.25+3.75) or 94 square inches of area.

This is only true if the filter had material on a smooth surface, since it's pleated, I would submit that if you knew the height of the pleat, you could take the surface area of the cone for the peak of the pleat, then take the surface area of the cone from the valley of the pleat, and take the average of the two. Figure you're going up the pleat as much as you're going down... since we don't have that information yet, it's an estimate. But, we do have a viable equation to make it run once we find the height of the pleat.

This is great. Now, does anybody happen to know the pressure drop per square inch for said filter?

Also, eL eS... I don't understand what you mean about the downward pressure of the air pushing on the filter with the conical unit. Air pressure is 14.7 PSI whether your upside down or rightside up. If it were not true, you'd suffocate if you ever tried to breathe with your face facing down. Or did I miss something in what you were saying?

There is no sucking force to pull air into a motor, or any other void. It is the atmospheric pressure pushing air in, when the motor moves the piston down and out of the way.,This creates a hollow spot for the atmosphere to fill.

Hind sight the atmospheric pressure would on have a distinct difference at different elevations. top and bottom of filter are not that far apart to make a difference. I should have used gravity. since nothing has a natural tendance to fly away from earth and the atmospheric pressure being what it is.

To force the air from the bottom to seems to be working against gravity. It seems that to force it on a horizontal plane or down force would be more beneficial. So I was giving the cone an edge becasue it is open to these planes. Isn't this way they use scoops?

This is my attempt to over complicate things. :Bang

 

[kleetus]

Scoops are making use of moving air, and the kinetic energy that it has as some speed... Hood scoops don't do a thing when you launch, because, well, nothing's moving yet. When you're screaming down the track at 100 +, that's a different story.

You are correct that at different elevations the atmospheric pressure changes, the higher you go up, the lower the pressure, and the worse your car, or you, will run. Gravity makes no difference on the air filter. I could hand you two 100 cubic foot CO2 tanks for a welder, one full and one empty, and I'll gauruntee that you can't tell me which is which without an accurate scale.

Cones have the advantage of more surface area, and the flow might look a little better because the air is coming in from all sides. I doubt you'd be able to see any difference just from that alone, again, go back to our previous disscussion about the restrictions and bends in the pipe.

Think about the obvious example: Does a vaccum sweeper run any better when you hold the nozzel straight up or down or any other direction, other than kinking the hose? Of course not. Same thing here. Our vaccum pumps have cylinders, not a centrifugal fan, but the result is the same.

 

[Quik LS]

We are making this way more complex than it has to be...

understatement of the YEAR!!!!

if the goal is to get the largest area opened (and covered by a filter) - measure the space you have to work with and buy the largest filter you can. I bet you end up going with a cone simply because you can't get a larger panel filter to fit in the stock airbox - so unless you're gonna make a new airbox - you're gonna replace it with a cone - a large cone.

 

[kleetus]

understatement of the YEAR!!!!

if the goal is to get the largest area opened (and covered by a filter) - measure the space you have to work with and buy the largest filter you can. I bet you end up going with a cone simply because you can't get a larger panel filter to fit in the stock airbox - so unless you're gonna make a new airbox - you're gonna replace it with a cone - a large cone.

BINGO! :Beer

 

[Pete02LSE]

Vacuum is the absence of air. The force that you call sucking is actually the atmosphere pushing the air in.

Pardon my ignorance but...are you saying that atmospheric pressure is the driving force instead of the motor drawing air in? If so...how can you explain something like hydro-locking? Did the water force it's way into the motor or was it drawn in?

 

[Pete02LSE]

understatement of the YEAR!!!!

if the goal is to get the largest area opened (and covered by a filter) - measure the space you have to work with and buy the largest filter you can. I bet you end up going with a cone simply because you can't get a larger panel filter to fit in the stock airbox - so unless you're gonna make a new airbox - you're gonna replace it with a cone - a large cone.

Ok...this is my last post on this. If you want the largest air filter in the larget area opened...then that's cool...but...it's sorta like having an exhaust that's too big...there's just no point. I don't think that an air filter that is too big will hurt performance the same as an exhaust that is too big...but...whatever.

Again...my apologies if we are trying to get to the bottom of what is the best mod for the money. Like I said above...If y'all want to throw money at mods that are unecessary...cool with me. I'll try and make the same power for a fraction of the cost.

This is the reason this board exists...to offer up discussions/disputes on what performance mods are out there and get facts from folks that have them.

-Pete
02 LSE