Lawsuit Over Prayer Is Settled

Joseph Story wrote an entire chapter on the "Rules of Interpretation of the Constitution" in this famous "Commentaries." It's a good place to start if you want to learn about the common law rules of construction.

THANKS!! That is what I wanted! I don't really have time to look at that now, but I will later. BTW, which one was it?

Commentaries on the Law of Bailments (1832)
Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (3 vols., 1833)
Commentaries on the Conflict of Laws (1834)
Commentaries on Equity Jurisprudence (2 vols., 1835-1836)

I am assuming it is the Commentaries on the Constitution.

Also, how is this the binding method for constitutional interpretation, and not just his own jurisprudence, and the justification for it?

Either way, how is that in conflict with originalism or textualism as both would seem to seek to clarify what the original intent was, as opposed to the opposite end of the spectrum, where the argument is that the constitution is vauge and/or outdated and the original intent of the Framers is effectively thrown out the window ("living" or "evolving" constitution)?
 
Mick Jagger
What language in the Constitution, pertaining to religion, was Madison explaining when he wrote that?

Shagdrum
It is more an example of his understanding of human nature which is based in christianity. That men are inherently "sinful" and selfish.

Do you really believe the lawmakers intended for us to gather the meaning of the Constituion from their understanding of human nature?

Mick J.
John Adams wasn't even one of the lawmakers who made the Constitution.

Shagdrum
No, but he was a contemporary of them; working with a number of them, and active in it's ratification. In fact, he was president when it was ratified, and in large part, the author of the original constitution of this nation; the Articles of Confederation. He had a very informed understanding of what went into the creation of the constitution, as well as what the constitution meant.

Show me where the lawmakers ever suggested that the Constitution was to be construed according to what John Adams said it meant.

Mick
Jefferson wasn't one of the lawmakers, dude.

Shagdrum
But he did write the Declaration, and again was a contemporary of them at the time; with the same intellectual influences and understandings.

Show me where the lawmakers ever suggested that the Constitution was to be construed according to what the Declaration of Independence said or what their intellectual influences and understandings were?

Mick
Where did you get the silly idea that the Constitution should be construed according to the influence of religion?

Shagdrum
That is hardly a silly idea, as Christianity was very influencial to the Framers. It's teaching played a large part in the founding of this nation.

Where did you get the silly idea that the Constitution should be construed according to the influence of Christianity?

A group of contemporary political scientists engaged in a ten-year study to find out what sources the Framers tapped. The study examined over fifteen thousand political writings of the Founding Era (1760-1805). The study revealed that the most frequently cited authorities of the 180 names examined (listed in order of declining fequency, with the corresponding percentages representing the frequency of citations from that author in relation to the total number of citations examined) were: Montesquieu 8.3%, Blackstone 7.9%, Locke 2.9%, Hume 2.7%, Plutarch 1.5%, Becaria 1.5%, Cato 1.4%, De Lolme 1.4%, and Puffendorf 1.3%#. Obviously, these writers greatly influenced the thinking of the founding fathers, but the researchers concluded that the founders cited the Bible vastly more often then any other source. Scripture was cited four times more then Blackstone or Montesquieu and twelve times more then Locke. Thirty-four percent of the direct source quotations were from the Bible. Except for Hume, all the men mentioned have strong Christian credentials.

How many times was the Bible cited as legal authority, during the making of the Constitution, in support of, or against, a provision of the proposed Constitution?
 
Do you really believe the lawmakers intended for us to gather the meaning of the Constituion from their understanding of human nature?

As I said earlier, that was simply and example of how religion influenced the Framers. The constitution wasn't written in a vaccum. Certian ideas and theories influenced the founding of this nation. The understanding of human nature is a HUGE one. I would hope you could see how human nature plays a large part in political philosophy and how the philosophy the framers ascribed to influenced the laws written and puts those laws in a historical context.

Show me where the lawmakers ever suggested that the Constitution was to be construed according to what John Adams said it meant.

Explain to me why it shouldn't be considered. He had a very close connection to that document and the people who created it. His understanding of the constitution, because of his place in history, is going to be extremely accurate, as compared to anyone today.


Show me where the lawmakers ever suggested that the Constitution was to be construed according to what the Declaration of Independence said or what their intellectual influences and understandings were?

Again, it puts it in historical context. What ideas were popular and used to justify the new ideas that went into the constitution are very important.


Where did you get the silly idea that the Constitution should be construed according to the influence of Christianity?

Because it IS influenced by Christianity.

How many times was the Bible cited as legal authority, during the making of the Constitution, in support of, or against, a provision of the proposed Constitution?

How is that relevant? The bible isn't cited as legal authority because it was not created as a legal document, it influenced the people who DID create the founding legal documents in this country. If you wanna throw out Christianity, then you have to throw out all those thinkers mentioned.

You have now shown a double standard, it seems. You say we should look at common law, which influenced certain aspects of the law, but did not create law, yet you wanna ignore other influences. Sorry, but you can't logically do that. The constitution wasn't created in a vaccum and needs to be view in its historical context.
 
shag hasn't checked out the wording of the treaty of tripoli. act 11.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
or the history of founding fathers
http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summer97/secular.html

Your second link is baloney. Mostly it demonstrates that the founding fathers were not Calvinists. So what? I'm not a Calvinist either. But I'm a Christian. The author of this article is ignorant of the differences between sects of Christianity. You would do well to educate yourself about Christianity before trying to comment on the subject. Clearly you know how to use Google, but that doesn't make you a scholar. :rolleyes:

Who is more foolish, the fool, or the one who follows him?

-- Obi-Wan Kenobi
 
Mick
Why don't you point out where they explain the no religious test clause and the non delegation of authority over religion?

Shagdrum
I will admit, the main focus of my study ( in regards to religion and politics) has been on the 1st Amendment. As such, it would take some time for me to research that and get back to you, time which I don't have, currently. Maybe next week.

That would be fine.

The "non-delegation" thing...are you talking about the federalism in the Bill of Rights?

Nope. I meant the Constitution created a limited government with only certain powers and didn't include any sort of power over religion. James Madison explained to the Virginia Ratifying Convention that it meant the federal government had "not a shadow of a right" to jurisdiction over religion.

President Thomas Jefferson was wrong when he said the First Amendment built a wall of separation. That wall was constructed by the framers granting the government no power over religion in the original Constitution. Jefferson did a better job in a letter he wrote seven years later. But he still screwed up by not properly characterizing the Tenth Amendment.

I consider the government of the U S. as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the U.S.

He left out the part about the people.
 
Cammerfe
I've just looked at this forum for the first time---and I found something of interest!! Just a couple of comments:

1. It is well settled (That's lawyer talk!) that those who wrote/brought into being any law understood the meanings of every word therein.

At the time the U. S. Constitution was made, it was well settled and universally understood that the Constitution would be construed according to the common law rules of construction.
 
THANKS!! That is what I wanted! I don't really have time to look at that now, but I will later. BTW, which one was it?

Commentaries on the Law of Bailments (1832)
Commentaries on the Constitution of the United States (3 vols., 1833)
Commentaries on the Conflict of Laws (1834)
Commentaries on Equity Jurisprudence (2 vols., 1835-1836)

I am assuming it is the Commentaries on the Constitution.

You would be correct. Volume I, Book Three, Chapter Five. http://www.constitution.org/js/js_005.htm

Also, how is this the binding method for constitutional interpretation, and not just his own jurisprudence, and the justification for it?

The issue is what the understanding and assumption of the lawmakers was with respect to what methodology would be used to interpret the Constitution. I just mentioned Story because he was generally an advocate of the same basic rules of construction the lawmakers assumed would be used to interpret the Constitution.

Either way, how is that in conflict with originalism

That all depends on which particular formulation of Originalism you're talking about. There's more than one.
 
Mick Jagger
Do you really believe the lawmakers intended for us to gather the meaning of the Constituion from their understanding of human nature?
Shagdrum
As I said earlier, that was simply and example of how religion influenced the Framers.

What methodology are we supposed to use to determine what the collective influence of religion was on the more than five hundred lawmakers who participated in the making the Constitution as delegates to the Constitutional Convention or the State Ratifying Conventions?
 
Shagdrum
The constitution wasn't written in a vaccum.

I know. I also know the Constitution was written to be interpreted according to the common law rules of construction.

Certian ideas and theories influenced the founding of this nation. The understanding of human nature is a HUGE one.

What rules and principles should we use to interpret the Constitution according to these influential ideas and theories?

I would hope you could see how human nature plays a large part in political philosophy and how the philosophy the framers ascribed to influenced the laws written and puts those laws in a historical context.

What are the rules for ascertaining the will of the lawmakers according to the historical context of the words they used in the Constitution?
 
Mick
Show me where the lawmakers ever suggested that the Constitution was to be construed according to what John Adams said it meant.

Shagdrum
Explain to me why it shouldn't be considered.

Because there is no evidence whatsoever that the lawmakers intended for it to be considered.
 
Mick
Show me where the lawmakers ever suggested that the Constitution was to be construed according to what the Declaration of Independence said or what their intellectual influences and understandings were?

Shagdrum
Again, it puts it in historical context. What ideas were popular and used to justify the new ideas that went into the constitution are very important.

What are the rules and principles of the "historical context" theory of interpretation?
 
Mick
Where did you get the silly idea that the Constitution should be construed according to the influence of Christianity?

Shagdrum
Because it IS influenced by Christianity.

What are the rules and principles of the methodology of interpretation that says the meaning of the Constitution should be gathered from Christianity?
 
Shagdrum
How is that relevant?

You're the one who implied that meaning of the Constitution should be gathered from the "sources the Framers tapped." How many time was the Bible tapped as a source during the making of the Constitution?
 
Nope. I meant the Constitution created a limited government with only certain powers and didn't include any sort of power over religion. James Madison explained to the Virginia Ratifying Convention that it meant the federal government had "not a shadow of a right" to jurisdiction over religion.

President Thomas Jefferson was wrong when he said the First Amendment built a wall of separation. That wall was constructed by the framers granting the government no power over religion in the original Constitution. Jefferson did a better job in a letter he wrote seven years later. But he still screwed up by not properly characterizing the Tenth Amendment.

I consider the government of the U S. as interdicted by the Constitution from intermeddling with religious institutions, their doctrines, discipline, or exercises. This results not only from the provision that no law shall be made respecting the establishment, or free exercise, of religion, but from that also which reserves to the states the powers not delegated to the U.S.

He left out the part about the people.

Ok, so Jefferson didn't communicate it well (at least in today's context). I understand that his original "wall of separation" basically would have the Federal government on one side, and the state and local government on the other. But a separation of powers between federal and state government; how is that not federalism?

FWI, it was Madison who took the notes of the convention.
 
The issue is what the understanding and assumption of the lawmakers was with respect to what methodology would be used to interpret the Constitution. I just mentioned Story because he was generally an advocate of the same basic rules of construction the lawmakers assumed would be used to interpret the Constitution.

Yeah, I was gonna ask about the Story thing, as he just turned 8 at the end of the Convention. Basically, you are saying, he codified this method of interpretation that the Framers subscribed to.

Still, an assertion that this is what the Framers subscribed to is nice, but could you give me more? Maybe a link? Some sort of textual basis, preferably from a few of the Framers and/or citing a few of the Framers?



That all depends on which particular formulation of Originalism you're talking about. There's more than one.

Yeah, meaning vs. Intent. I would say I subscribe to the meaning area, or a textualism informed by original meaning. Most discussions I have on this subject are not at a level where that distinction is relevant. Usually it is more living constitution type views vs. originalism
 
You're the one who implied that meaning of the Constitution should be gathered from the "sources the Framers tapped." How many time was the Bible tapped as a source during the making of the Constitution?

I will give you an example; Natural Rights. Jefferson referenced them in the Declaration, and they are mentioned in the 5th amendment "nor be deprived from life, liberty, or property". The idea comes from Locke, and basically says that because humans are created in God's image, they are entitled to certian rights that the state cannot take away. This nation was largely Christitan at the time, as were the Framers and Locke, so the "God" in that context is a Christian God.

Another example, checks and balances. Since man was understood as inherently sinful by the Framers, government was needed to control that sinful human nature. Since the government was run by men (again who are inherently sinful) a need for a system of checks and balances was neccessitated. Again, Madison if Federalist 51:
If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.

Ben Franklin wrote in response to a manuscript Thomas Paine sent him that advocated against the concept of a providential God:
You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself.

It seems to me the debate here is over the common law rules of construction method of interpretation vs. originalism.

I would still like to see a textual base for that being the method for interpretation of the constitution subscribed to by the Framers, but even assuming that, I still have two questons:

1: How does common law interpretation account for the 200+ year gap in the present vs. when the laws were created?

There are a lot of interpretation issues today that wouldn't have been present at that time, namely due to the growing time gap between today and the founding of the nation. People today view the world differently, certain ideas, like natural rights, have no meaning to the average person today, and a different meaning from a scholarly point of view then they did at that time. for example, the idea of Natural Rights has become Human Rights, and lost any connection to being created in God's image; just because you are born human, you have those rights. To correctly interpret the constitution, you logically need to view it in the historical context it was created in.

Basically, I am saying, while that may have been the method subscribed to at that time, and the best one to go by then, why should it still be considered the best one to go by today?​

2: How can common law be used to interpret the constitution?

the constitution was written very broadly and generally, intentionally. It didn't so much create laws as it did provide the framework for laws to be created in. The constituton broke down how the powers would be divided, the limits of those powers and the checks and balances system. In certian areas (like elections, and impeachments), it spelled out certian specific procedures, but left the actual lawmaking to the legislature.

Common law basically did for the legal system, what the constitution did for the rest of the government; provided a framework to function in. Certian concepts and principles were taken from the British common law a well; such as, Stare decisis, Statute of Frauds, etc. But common law only clarified procedure and how certian laws should be applied. Common law says nothing about weather a certian law or action is unconstitutional and beyond the scope of the limited powers given to that part of the government.

For example; how does common law help determine what is ment by the right to bear arms in the second amendment? Why would you turn to common law, instead of what that amendment was understood to mean by those who wrote that amendment and those who ratified that amendment, to clarify the meaning?​
 
You have now shown a double standard, it seems. You say we should look at common law

That's not what I meant to say. The rules of construction should be used, not only because they originated in English law, but also because the historical evidence establishes the fact that the lawmakers assumed the rules would be used to interpret the Constitution.

which influenced certain aspects of the law

The rules of construction dictate what can, and can't, be considered when attempting to ascertain the will of the lawmakers at the time the Constitution was made.
 
That's not what I meant to say. The rules of construction should be used, not only because they originated in English law, but also because the historical evidence establishes the fact that the lawmakers assumed the rules would be used to interpret the Constitution.

I need more then just assertions to accept this.

The rules of construction dictate what can, and can't, be considered when attempting to ascertain the will of the lawmakers at the time the Constitution was made.

How? Where does it draw the line?

Examples? Quotes? I am in the middle of midterms here and don't have time at present to research all this stuff.

I need you to summarize and package it for me, and for whoever else is reading this thread and may be curious about this.
 
You have now shown a double standard, it seems. You say we should look at common law, which influenced certain aspects of the law, but did not create law, yet you wanna ignore other influences. Sorry, but you can't logically do that.

The common law, and any other law for that matter, can only be considered if allowed by the rules of construction.
 
Ok, so Jefferson didn't communicate it well (at least in today's context). I understand that his original "wall of separation" basically would have the Federal government on one side, and the state and local government on the other.

The Constitution wasn't adopted with the understanding that it would be construed according to what Thomas Jefferson wrote over a decade after it became law.
 
The common law, and any other law for that matter, can only be considered if allowed by the rules of construction.

Textual proof. You keep ignoring that. I have asked for it numerous times in this thread. Post a quote, something, please.

Also, you still haven't answered my questions:

1: How does common law interpretation account for the 200+ year gap in the present vs. when the laws were created?

There are a lot of interpretation issues today that wouldn't have been present at that time, namely due to the growing time gap between today and the founding of the nation. People today view the world differently, certain ideas, like natural rights, have no meaning to the average person today, and a different meaning from a scholarly point of view then they did at that time. for example, the idea of Natural Rights has become Human Rights, and lost any connection to being created in God's image; just because you are born human, you have those rights. To correctly interpret the constitution, you logically need to view it in the historical context it was created in.

Basically, I am saying, while that may have been the method subscribed to at that time, and the best one to go by then, why should it still be considered the best one to go by today?​
2: How can common law be used to interpret the constitution?

the constitution was written very broadly and generally, intentionally. It didn't so much create laws as it did provide the framework for laws to be created in. The constituton broke down how the powers would be divided, the limits of those powers and the checks and balances system. In certian areas (like elections, and impeachments), it spelled out certian specific procedures, but left the actual lawmaking to the legislature.

Common law basically did for the legal system, what the constitution did for the rest of the government; provided a framework to function in. Certian concepts and principles were taken from the British common law a well; such as, Stare decisis, Statute of Frauds, etc. But common law only clarified procedure and how certian laws should be applied. Common law says nothing about weather a certian law or action is unconstitutional and beyond the scope of the limited powers given to that part of the government.

For example; how does common law help determine what is ment by the right to bear arms in the second amendment? Why would you turn to common law, instead of what that amendment was understood to mean by those who wrote that amendment and those who ratified that amendment, to clarify the meaning?​
 

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