Out of ideas, can't fix ETC Failsafe.. Please help.

lincoln_zero

lincoln_zero

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Hope everyone enjoyed their autumn season.

So here is where I am at now with this LS:

-New coils and sparks were done, as mentioned in a previous post. New 02 sensor was done. Since then, I got this car taken to a different mechanic. Here's what we did.

Hooked up his Snap-On scanner.
*Compression checked, everything is great
*Fuel Injectors checked, everything is solid there.
*Checked the live graphs. Noticed that the PCM is adjusting mix ratio a fair bit on cylinder 6.

He checked a whole bunch of stuff, everything looked great. No misfires on the live data.
Now..
Left the car with the mechanic, and he opened up the throttle body. Found it was filthy, so he cleaned it. He also noticed the EGR valve was dirty. So he cleaned that as well. Rescanned my LS, and got misfire on Cylinder 7/4/1, but only once. (cylinder 6 is on best behavior now).
Mechanic (with my permission) modified the intake. Opened up the bottom to allow more air through. Definitely noticed it, sounds nicer and car has more pull with Torries street tune.

I went to pick up the car, took out for a ride in town. Upon start up, idles dropped very low. Got to a Stop sign, the idle dropped to below 600RPM, sounded like the car wanted to die. Did this a few times, until it warmed up, then idled properly. Let the car cool down. Didn't do it again (YAY?). Drove it home from town, no issues. Punched it on a side street, aaaaand F**k me - ETC Failsafe. NO OTHER CODE. Just failsafe. Only failsafe. Cause, why should I get another code? I dont deserve another code, just P2106.

So Injectors check out. Compression checks out. All cylinders are firing. EGR valve cleaned. Throttle body Cleaned.

Please, I'm literally at a dead end... I dont know what else to do.

EDIT: NOV/22
The mechanic informed me the misfires were BEFORE he cleaned the throttle body, not after. He said he no longer shows misfires. And, the misfire was only once on those cylinders.

Also, he said he cleared the cars parameters, which is why the RPM drops were there when I first started.

He also cleaned the fuel injectors.
 
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Did you ever send your PCM out? I recently sent mine to SIA and they fixed the transmission controls and now my car shifts correctly for the first time since I got it last May. I got the service on ebay for $125. Supposedly if they don't find anything wrong they will only charge $15.

One of the possible causes for the P2016 code I read is abnormal system voltages. One thing I noticed in your posts is that you got the ETC fail safe when you stepped on it. This got me thinking about an a/c short I had several years ago where the fuse would blow when the car was shifting gears. For years the wire harness had been against the dipstick tube and rubbed the wire bare. The motor would rock back and forth with the shifts and the wire would make contact at the end of a gear so I mistakenly thought it had something to do with the transmission. I eventually found the cause and taped up the wires. Could be your engine is shifting enough to cause a short somewhere that you don't normally see when the car is idling. Just a thought I had.
 
jerryg2112 said:
. One thing I noticed in your posts is that you got the ETC fail safe when you stepped on it.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the reply.

It also happens when just casually accelerating if I reach above 3k RPM, and its done it just pulling into a parking lot, tho much less frequent at low RPM's.
 
lincoln_zero said:
... Drove it home from town, no issues. Punched it on a side street, aaaaand F**k me - ETC Failsafe. NO OTHER CODE. Just failsafe. Only failsafe. Cause, why should I get another code? I dont deserve another code, just P2106....
Click to expand...

So.... A few years back, my 04 started having seemingly random ETC failsafe, and each time it was just P2106 (scan tool was Ford specific). As you know P2106 tells you what the PCM did due to a problem, but not what that problem was. Over time, this went from once a month (or less), to nearly every day. During all this, I checked a lot of stuff, including removing and cleaning the throttle body. None of that seemed to alter the problem. I was left with the question is it an issue with the throttle body itself, or with the rest of the car.

Fortunately, I had another 2nd gen LS, so the way to answer that question was clear. I swapped the throttle bodies between my 04 and my 06. Now if the 06 started having ETC failsafe, I would know it was the throttle body itself. If the 04 continued having ETC failsafe, I would know it was something else on the 04 (PCM, wiring, coils, ...). So, which was it? I don't know. That was years ago, and neither car has had any ETC failsafe since then.
 
I don't have a throttle body to swap out. My options here are to buy a new one, find one used from scraps, and in both cases - pay a mechanic to swap it.
I have to play guessing games with the car, and throw cash at it until the issue is solved?
 
I was just relating my experience. There should be a better answer.
I had no misfires at all. Maybe look into that first.
 
Your experience was helpful because it shows this car can failsafe wihtout throwing other codes. Which shows im not alone in this issue.

For the misfires, those are brand new plugs an coils. I used name brand stuff (Standard). It of course could be the coils. Other than spending $1500 CAD for new coils from Ford, I don't have a way to guarantee. I'm not getting any misfire DTC's anymore nor does the loud exhaust have any pops.

So I either replace the coils, again... or replace the throttle body. Both are gonna rinse me over $200 on parts easily.

Edit: This car did not failsafe until I put the tune on it, if that helps to figure out where the issue could be.
 
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lincoln_zero said:
So I called my mechanic for clarification and he said the misfire was before he cleaned the throttle body. After cleaning it is not misfiring.

I found this one
https://www.amazon.ca/Spectra-Premi...incoln+ls+throttle+body&qid=1574440751&sr=8-5

Its a $183.61 CAD ($138.10 USD). What do you think?
Click to expand...

Great price, but it's not the right one. Don't know if it would fit. If it did, you'd have to do something about plugging the throttle body heater hoses.
This is the right one: https://www.amazon.com/GENUINE-FORD-3W4Z9E926AD-THROTTLE-BODY/dp/B000NTS4H4
 
joegr said:
Great price, but it's not the right one. Don't know if it would fit. If it did, you'd have to do something about plugging the throttle body heater hoses.
This is the right one: https://www.amazon.com/GENUINE-FORD-3W4Z9E926AD-THROTTLE-BODY/dp/B000NTS4H4
Click to expand...

I'm not showing any sellers for that one. Guess I'll have to shop around.

I called FORD and they want $1,357.00 for the part.
I cannot afford this. Way too much. Even half that price is too much. Need an alternative.
 
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joegr said:
To keep the throttle from icing over in cold & humid weather. Sure, you can bypass - but should you?


Apparently, Dorman makes one that fits ($370, USD). Cardone sells rebuilt ones ($250 USD)

Here's a used one on ebay (I see others in the same price range):
03 04 05 06 Lincoln LS Ford Thunderbird Throttle Body V8 Original OEM 3.9 3.9L | eBay
Click to expand...


LKQ Has one used. $175.
They guarantee the part 30 days return. If the part fails within 6 months, full refund.
I'll prolly clean it out when I get it, and do the swap.

Thanks joe for looking for me. I hope this solves the issue.
 
joegr said:
To keep the throttle from icing over in cold & humid weather.
Click to expand...

To keep the throttle body itself from icing over? I mean, if I'm buying one that doesn't have the hoses, doesn't that mean its self sufficient in that way? Or do you mean something else from icing over.
 
The throttle body itself. If you buy one without the heater, then either it's not the right part, or (in the case of a used one) someone removed it on purpose. You can get away with that in a warm climate, but probably not in a cold one. Without the heater, your two heater hoses will have no where to go. You'd either have to plug them, or connect them together, or replace them with one slightly longer hose that just loops around. Easiest and safest is to retain the throttle body heater.
 
^ I'd gamble it's the non Ford coils. Certainly seems like taking the tune off is your cheaper elimination action followed by sending your PCM in.
 
lincoln_zero said:
To keep the throttle body itself from icing over? I mean, if I'm buying one that doesn't have the hoses, doesn't that mean its self sufficient in that way? Or do you mean something else from icing over.
Click to expand...
I can't remember ...did you ever replace the throttle position sensor? Nevertheless I can't believe how many threads I've read on aftermarket marginal coils bringing a Lincoln LS into fail safe mode
 
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04_Sport_LS said:
Hmmm... and IIRC... you put the cheaper Standard coils on it. Did you ever load test the coils as Joe suggested a while back???
Click to expand...

Back when I had my 02 LS, I put $10 Ebay coils on that LS, while running Robs (KBX) tune. No misfires. Never had a ETC failsafe.

As of right now, I dont have any misfires. We data logged it. There is no misfire.
 
AmsterDutch said:
did you ever replace the throttle position sensor?
Click to expand...

Nope. Should I?


04_Sport_LS said:
Most of that was already suggested.
Click to expand...

Its been suggested to look into the fuel injector, scope the ignition, check spark gapping, EGR valve. I did those things.
Amsterdutch mentioned looking into the EGR valve, which got me thinking the culprit could be the throttle body.

So to be clear, the mechanic cleaned the throttle body and EGR Valve. And as a result of doing so, massive improvements now.
1) The slow rev in neutral, is almost entirely gone. It revs through the 1-3k rpm quicker now
2) loads of more torque. I got more response and power.

We'eve run the data log, and don't show any misfires now. All I get is ETC failsafe.

stugots said:
I'd gamble it's the non Ford coils.
Click to expand...
This is always the go-to blame for the LS ignition issues. And I completely understand why. But remember that I've had this issue since sept last year when I got it, and it came with Delphi coils.

I would get a misfire code if I had a misfire from the coils, no? And since it was throwing cylinder 6 DTC before, and IF it were the "cheap Standard coil", would I not get other misfires and not only just from one cylinder?
And having replace cyl 6 coil again, and getting the misfire DTC on only that cylinder after having 2 coils and 2 sparks replaced, and ONLY that cylinder, and none of the others, is completely suspicious.

Before cleaning the thottlebody, the mechanic logged a misfire from 3 other cylinders. But it was only once. And after cleaning it, we dont have any misfires logged.
I'm not gonna rule out the coils, or the PCM, but seeing the improvements I got from the throttlebody and no longer logging misfires after cleaning it, is why I am here.
 
lincoln_zero said:
?
Click to expand...

lincoln_zero said:
Nope. Should I?
Click to expand...
Well I've heard that a bad Throttle position Sensor can put a car into Fail Safe but yours would be intermittent if anything by reading your posts ...again this is just another part to check...I'm thinking Forscan could give you some sort of readi g on this part and Joegr or FDR could tell you what a bad reading or good reading would be
 
Battery is less than a year. $200 battery, bought from Costco. Has lots of juice. Can play 1000 watt subs for an hour ingnition off.
 
Ok great, thanks! I have seen (I think) reports of etc failsafe with low batteries being the cause. When etc failsafe happens, does the car still run?
 
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