Timing Chain Teardown Time

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So I got a look in there, didn't have much time so didn't turn the crank at all so 2 pistons were pretty far up, they didn't look too suspect though maybe the one but it seemed like odd carbon buildup formation rather than valve dings, the one that seemed possibly dinged I took lots of pictures of, but the position of the lobes on that cylinder are the furthest in closed position from the looks of it.... I dunno, you guys let me know what your thoughts are....

joegr said:
That's not at all how it works! The cam didn't break, the chain did. If you suddenly removed the cam, then yes the springs would instantly close all the valves, but that's not what happened. Instead, the chain stopped turning the cam. Even if the spring force of the valves could turn a cam (it really can't, let alone quickly), then you'd still have the problem that some would be closed (safe), and some would be open (big problem). There's no position to turn the cam to that has all the valves closed.

You have damaged valves, and may even have damaged pistons. Get/rent a borescope and have a look into each cylinder.
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Personally (but I'm not the one doing the work here), I think that's enough to go ahead and pull that head off and see what the valves on the one(s) that hit look like.
 
joegr said:
Personally (but I'm not the one doing the work here), I think that's enough to go ahead and pull that head off and see what the valves on the one(s) that hit look like.
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But you are saying that you think that is a hit?? I was starting to think more that it could just be more odd looking buildup, as I would think a valve ding would show as the largest impacted area would have the most "fresh" looking metal and would kind of create almost a c facing towards the center of the piston with the ends of the c trailing off, but on the iffy one I feel like the heaviest looking possible impact is off to one side and it almost is more of a line from wall to center instead of kind of cupping toward the center....

I dunno, I guess some minor background about myself might would help you guys reccomend things for me?? I am just a joe blow with a broke down car. More of a hobbist mechanic out of necessity rather than someone who actually gets paid for it (would love to actually get paid for it just dont want to have to do the schooling at my age) but I really just want the car back on the road so I can drive to and from work (5 minute drive), no intention to sell the vehicle until she dies for good. I am feeling fairly good about my repair progress after those pics because even if its running with poor compression in one of eight cylinders it should still run and get me 10 minutes down the road each day... Am I wrong in thinking now that I have a fairly decent chance of getting it back on the road with just fixing the broken chain and gear??
 
I think that the 2nd and 3rd show a hit, but I could be wrong. It seems like pulling the head now is not much more effort, since most of the needed disassembly is already done (to get to the chains).

Of course, as was also pointed out, it's hard to know that the hit didn't tilt the piston enough to break a ring. Still lots of unknown here. If this had happened to me (and I was determined to keep the car) then I would probably put a used engine in.
 
joegr said:
I think that the 2nd and 3rd show a hit, but I could be wrong. It seems like pulling the head now is not much more effort, since most of the needed disassembly is already done (to get to the chains).

Of course, as was also pointed out, it's hard to know that the hit didn't tilt the piston enough to break a ring. Still lots of unknown here. If this had happened to me (and I was determined to keep the car) then I would probably put a used engine in.
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I guess another bit of info would be (and would also indicate that things are fairly safeish to me) would be that I drove the car probably about a mile total after the chain was broken because it would start/run VERY poorly after the breakdown (which was 4 hours from my house) so that I could limp it to an autozone and try to get a CEL reading before leaving it so far from my house (I know now that was a terrible idea but I am really starting to feel like the luckiest bad lucker ever). I would think with all the driving that happened after the broken chain, there would be very significant easily identifiable damage to anything that was hitting.

To me the thing is about being determined to keep the car is that I have secondary means of transportation (borrowing my dads vehicle) and the LS is long ago paid off. I'm not loaded or anything and certainly don't have the means currently to buy a new car or new engine (would not be able to do the swap myself... remember shade tree mechanic) so the way i am seeing it right now is the roll the dice is about $300 which I can afford or the other option is I dunno, 2-4k on engine or 5k or more for new car (cant borrow pops truck forever) which puts me back under payments which I REALLY dont want right now...
 
De-marko said:
Pics

Here some pics of the pressure sensor or whatever it is that goes on the fan pump and the nights tally.

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You’re neck deep in a complex engineering mind scape of Brits and Americans...however We did always have good luck together and even Won not one but 2 World Wars so what can I say...it’s an American Jaguar lol Just wanted to say it’s a good time to either put some new paint under the hood or buy a couple gallons of LA Awesome degreaser or whatever you prefer and clean the engine up a bit ....good Luck
 
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Ok, so I still am hoping to not take the heads off due to inexperience in that area but after talking with De-marko I have decided I should at the least perform a leakdown test. I want to try and make sure I do it properly. Do I have to pull the cams to ensure all the valves are closed or can I just turn the cams until both intake and exhaust lobes are pointing up on the cylinder while running the test? Will it matter what position the piston is in?? (I can turn the cams freely now as all chains are off) one of my main concerns is that most of the instructions how to run the test say it needs to be warm and I certainly can't warm the car up... (Will they just leak through the rings since it's not warm?)
 
It's less accurate cold, but I would think that it would still tell you if the valves are or aren't toast.
 
+1 It's definitely better then nothing. If they are bent, the air would blow by instantly hot or cold! You could pull the cams since they are right there to eliminate any guess work.
 
Sooo on my cheapo leak down from harbor freight I am seeing an issue... Have 6 cylinders all around 25% and 2 cylinders around 55%... Anyone have any tips for getting the head off??? I was looking at the exhaust and feel like if I got the manifold disconnected from the rest of the exhaust that I might not have to fight the manifold itself?? Does that seem likely at all or should I shoot for getting all of intake and exhaust off the head first??
 
Man, no good! Well at least you know! I've seen both ways. It depends on how big or snakey the manifolds are. On the LS its not too big and you may be able to do that. I've removed the manifolds before and they weren't that bad to remove!
 
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I really put in some work today, got intake off exhaust manifold off and head off... I did do some looking at the valves, and oddly enough non had visible signs of contact?? That was a bit discouraging but just have to figure with the leak down test that it is just not visible damage but it's still there?!? Going to take the head to a local machine shop/auto parts store that somewhat specializes in this type of thing...
 
Wow! yeah have them check the valves! With the sheared off cam sprocket I don't know how they could not have hit!
 
De-marko said:
Wow! yeah have them check the valves! With the sheared off cam sprocket I don't know how they could not have hit!
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I just can't hardly get a brake on this thing... Took it to the machine shop and the fella there said he didn't want to take the job, he referred me to a different place that said $500+ for a valve job!! I did spray some fluid into the intake and there is for sure leakage on the intake valves that showed leakage on the leak down test... Any suggestions from you guys?? Could I just go the old hillbilly route of valve compound and a drill to try and smooth out the 4 valves in question?? The fella that gave me a $500 estimate said he would do all 16 valves for that, I asked him if he would do just the ones I said are damaged and he said he could, should I see what that will run?? Should I buy a used/salvage head off eBay and hope it's in good shape??
 
The valve lap compound route is good if your just trying to revive some valve seats on an undamaged head and valves. If the valve stems are indeed bent it wont save them!

Can you get this guy to at least check the valves? That way you know for sure what your dealing with?

The ebay route is definitely a possibility but just be aware it's a crap shoot.
 
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TrowaBarton said:
I just can't hardly get a brake on this thing... Took it to the machine shop and the fella there said he didn't want to take the job, he referred me to a different place that said $500+ for a valve job!! I did spray some fluid into the intake and there is for sure leakage on the intake valves that showed leakage on the leak down test... Any suggestions from you guys?? Could I just go the old hillbilly route of valve compound and a drill to try and smooth out the 4 valves in question?? The fella that gave me a $500 estimate said he would do all 16 valves for that, I asked him if he would do just the ones I said are damaged and he said he could, should I see what that will run?? Should I buy a used/salvage head off eBay and hope it's in good shape??
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What year is your LS I found a 2004 with a great engine ....the guy is parting it out or selling it for $300 dollars engine and transmission still perfect ☎ (612) 251-9685
 
AmsterDutch said:
What year is your LS I found a 2004 with a great engine ....the guy is parting it out or selling it for $300 dollars engine and transmission still perfect ☎ (612) 251-9685
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He has a gen I. Gen IIs don't have timing chain/tensioner problems.
 
Hi!

At the shop they unmount the secondary timing chain tensioners , it had the second gen tensioners, the metal ones.
The tensioner have groove marks so I decided to replaced them;The timing was ok , parallel flat cam marks OK. The chain guides were ok , not brittle at all.

The crankshaft seal was defective.

It was a surprise no to see the plastic ones.

2001 v8 base

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If your car is really a 2001 then you got real lucky and got the post May 2001 build car. I can see in the pic all the updated parts, like oil pump, over under(??) style sprocket and so forth.
 
TrowaBarton said:
he referred me to a different place that said $500+ for a valve job!! I did spray some fluid into the intake and there is for sure leakage on the intake valves that showed leakage on the leak down test... Any suggestions from you guys?? Could I just go the old hillbilly route of valve compound and a drill to try and smooth out the 4 valves in question?? The fella that gave me a $500 estimate said he would do all 16 valves for that, I asked him if he would do just the ones I said are damaged and he said he could, should I see what that will run??
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AS I think may have been said... lapping the valves if they are bent,,, won't work. Your best bet may be finding a good running engine and pulling the heads off that one to use on yours. If you are lucky... they won't need a valve job. $500 actually isn't a bad price to re-work the heads.

IIRC,,, per a thread on here somewhere... you can use gen2 heads and put gen1 sprockets on the cams. :confused:

Joe makes a good pointabout checking for cracked piston rings.

Unfortunately... that means ALOT more work for you. Your best bet may be that Gen2 engine Dutch mentions,,, and "backwards converting" it to Gen1 sprockets, (and associated parts).
 
grizzlyls said:
If your car is really a 2001 then you got real lucky and got the post May 2001 build car. I can see in the pic all the updated parts, like oil pump, over under(??) style sprocket and so forth.
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There were some tinted marks on one sprocket so I believe this was changed time ago. Either way i feel good about the motor status. I did not want to use the car waiting a major failure.
 
There is two types of primary timing chain.
One with single roller chain and other with multilink(silent chain).
My car had the silent type chain(multilink), I found some links at the bottom of the oil pan so I'm planning to replace the primary lower chains.
You can see the missing links ,pic attached.

Which one should I bought?

Is there an improve or a size difference?

2001 Lincoln LS v8

Best Regards,Fabrizio-.
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